Do you view marriage as a worthwhile goal?

[LFH]

Marriage is treated as if it's this big prize to be desired and obtained and safeguarded.

As an AP, do you view this to be true? Do you think marriage is a big deal?

Do you think that it's the PRIZE or treasure chest or do you think.. eh... it is what it is?

 

I was very happily married. We had a fantastic marriage and one that was everything someone could want from marriage and we both worked REALLY hard at it. So yes, I think a marriage like that is a treasure.

 

But marriage as many people see it and treat it is not something that I would ever want nor do I see it as the only successful outcome of a long term relationship.

 

I was wondering what your thoughts as an OW/OM/WS were on this. If you're in love with your AP, do you see yourself with them married eventually? Is that your goal?

 

Do you HAVE a goal?

 

Or is marriage just kind of like.. eh... like it is to me now.

[LFH]

M was never a goal. A R filled with love and honesty with a man who was only mine was the goal. Well, at least once I grew up.

 

So you agree with ME that a relationship filled with love and honesty is valuable,

[cocorico]

Marriage is treated as if it's this big prize to be desired and obtained and safeguarded.

As an AP, do you view this to be true? Do you think marriage is a big deal?

Do you think that it's the PRIZE or treasure chest or do you think.. eh... it is what it is?

 

I was very happily married. We had a fantastic marriage and one that was everything someone could want from marriage and we both worked REALLY hard at it. So yes, I think a marriage like that is a treasure.

 

But marriage as many people see it and treat it is not something that I would ever want nor do I see it as the only successful outcome of a long term relationship.

 

I was wondering what your thoughts as an OW/OM/WS were on this. If you're in love with your AP, do you see yourself with them married eventually? Is that your goal?

 

Do you HAVE a goal?

 

Or is marriage just kind of like.. eh... like it is to me now.

 

No, M was never my goal.

[LFH]

It's a great goal! I wish you all the luck in attaining it! Still keeping my fingers crossed that mine continues. All our prior baggage and all, you know. When you get to my age there has been a LOT of water under a plethora of bridges!

 

I have it, thanks. For the second time in my life I have everything I need or want in my relationship. I'm a pretty lucky girl in a lot of ways.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your relationship too.

[cocorico]

M was never a goal. A R filled with love and honesty with a man who was only mine was the goal.

 

That's exactly what I had in my A. It's a great goal, and something I wish most people get to experience at least once in their lives.

[LYC]

Been lurking for a few weeks. First time poster. I don't view marriage as my goal with my MM. I am happy with how our relationship is going and being happy with each other is what is important to me.

[Got it]

I do not view marriage as the only goal or the be all and end all but a relationship that is as you state is paramount. Marriage allows certain legal liberties here that are beneficial but I am okay not marrying. Getting married is very important to dMM so I am happy to oblige. We will have a prenup, etc as I think it is a good business decision but I enjoy life with him, I like our every day and look forward to more like it.

[RainDown]

I was married once. It's not for me. Nor is any kind of long-term relationship, state sanctioned or not. Not my thing, for sure.

 

I became much happier in life when I realized I didn't have to pair off just because that's what most other people were trying to do. I'm not able to tolerate long-term "couplehood". I tried an exclusive relationship once quite a few years after my divorce - still no.

 

I'm just one of those people who is happier without a partner. I also know people who are miserable without a partner and go to great lengths to find one. I do go to their weddings when invited, but I really don't get it. lol

[ComingInHot]

LHF' " For the second time in my life I have everything I need or want in my relationship."

 

I think your statement explains a-lot. People are born w/inate desires, be that a M & children, or a position of leadership or to serve or be alone.

None of them "bad" just personal desires*

 

I desired M & a family. I have it. It has been "tested" at its very core, but holding onto our desires are usually tested at some point by their destructive (yet so,times enticing) counterparts. When the tests are faced and failed, people have the choice to move on or stay and overcome.

 

My H and I decided to stay & overcome and the reward has been great for us & our family*

[cocorico]

 

I think your statement explains a-lot. People are born w/inate desires, be that a M & children, or a position of leadership or to serve or be alone.

None of them "bad" just personal

 

 

CiH do you believe these are innate, or learned? I don't recall being born with any desires, beyond simply wanting to thrive and be happy. I developed my desires as I grew and went along. M and kids were never part of that, because I'd never seen a happy M or happy parents, merely women and men resigned to their lot in life.

 

I'm blissfully happy in my M, but not because it's a M - I'd be equally happy were it exactly the same, but called something else and without the state's involvement.

[LFH]

When I was a little girl I wanted to grow up to be a wife and Mommy. All my friends had plans of being dr's and lawyers and ballerinas and all these plans and I wanted to be Mrs Ingalls or Mrs Brady or Mrs Seaver.

 

Instead, my life didn't appear to show that that could ever be an option and so I began, very early that my happiness was going to come from within me. That I needed to build a life that was built around ME and not some guy.

Against most odds, I did venture down the "traditional role" path even while starting an amazing career as well. I had a beautiful marriage and wonderful life with my husband, and then I lost him and I was unbearably and painfully sad at that loss.

 

But.. I picked myself up and took care of myself and continued to build the life that I, and that I know my husband would want me to have. And eventually, I have found love again, but again, circumstances don't point to the possibility of me getting a traditional happily ever after, but I'm ok with that.

I've had more love and respect and caring, along with true partnership and deep friendship than many people ever get to experience. How could I feel cheated by that?

[Silly_Girl]

I am marrying a man in July who I previously only thought existed in my fantasies. Marriage was not the goal, meeting, living with, and enjoying a relationship like I have now was always my goal

[eleanorrigby]

To me marriage is worth it with my husband. We met young and have been through so many things together, practically grown up together. If we were to divorce or lose one through death, I can't imagine caring about another person or wanting to even get to know another person as much as I do with him.

 

I won't say never, but when I try to imagine being married to another man, I just can't see it.

 

So.. marriage was a goal we had for each other, but for me, not for anyone else.

[ComingInHot]

coco, " CiH do you believe these are innate, or learned? I don't recall being born with any desires, beyond simply wanting to thrive and be happy. I developed my desires as"

 

Ahhh, the age old "Nature vs Nurture" debate/discussion

 

I Know because of my own life and story that the two play a significant role in who we become and choices we make.

 

I have since I was a young child, cared about the welfare of others whereas my siblings care more about doing well while not harming others. There is a difference there*

 

My mother was never a play w/dolls type lady in which she cared for them in a motherly fashion. She used her dolls as though they were employees or students. She was/is a WONDERFUL Mother though.

 

I always Wanted to be a mother (and performer, and business woman. ) but at the end of the day, creating a family w/my H leading & protecting his sacred unit, was a treasured goal.

[MissBee]

I don't think marriage in itself is a magical land. Marriage, like any other form of committed relationship, is what the two people therein make it. Generally, most people's relationships aren't things I admire, as so many people get into affairs, marriages, LTR, FWB etc. under some very strange premises and the whole thing seems a mess.

 

I have seen good marriages and good relationships that I admire and think "I want that." I mostly think about the qualities within a marriage I would want and not just about simply being married for the sake of it. I will admit, I have never heard anyone talk about their affair and think "Wow...so nice. I want that one day."

 

While in the A, I did not think about marrying him as a goal. I was also younger and wasn't thinking of marrying anyone. These days, I do eventually want to be married and have a family therefore I can't imagine embarking upon an A if that is my goal. I am not chasing marriage; however, I would like to be in a relationship where certain kinds of growth are possible and seamless. Just like career wise, I chose an area with a breadth of possibilities where I won't ever be stuck. I would only want to invest in a man if I know that should we decide to take the next step, should I want kids, should I want to live together etc it is possible. In an affair situation, it wouldn't be. I value commitment and truly having a companion and life partner. I see that as what marriage is about and am willing to go there with someone one day, in spite of other people's failure at it.

[OpenBook]

No. Not for myself. If others do view it as worthwhile, and they take good care of each other in their M, I absolutely respect that. But if they DON'T take good care of each other, then - all bets are off in my book, regardless of anything they profess about how they value their M. Sorry, I just can't respect that.

[snowfun]

During my R with xMW my opinion on marriage changed quite a bit. I always believed I would never marry. My parents divorced when I was 10. At the time I don't remember this having an effect on me but recently I've come to realise it has profoundly effected my "development" and still does to an extent. I saw my parents and decided I never wanted that.

 

That opinion changed slightly during the A. I could imagine marrying her. Whether it was fantasy or not, I still felt it. I loved and cared for her deeply and wanted to be connected to her. She was/is a wonderful person and I would love to be able to say "...and this is my wife". It wasn't something I thought about a lot; probably because it was such an unlikely possibility, but it gave me hope that if not her, perhaps somebody in the future; that I wasn't completely emotionally broken.

 

Anyway, she ended up staying in her marriage. I think she felt trapped by what marriage meant. She didn't stay for love either. She stayed for future financial security, fear of the unknown and the comfortable life she had built. I'm torn between whether this is "right" or not. It's certainly not the picture of marriage I had envisioned. If you've found somebody you can live with and tolerate and your future is secure and safe; is that a bad thing? Do you need "love"? I once questioned whether she was going to stay for those reasons and her response was "so many people do."

 

I really don't know. Everybody has different needs I suppose. I don't begrudge her decision because that seems to be what is important to her. She didn't seem to accept you could have both.

 

So I suppose it gave me hope that if I meet the right person I may find is possible; which is good. However, at the moment, I feel so completely messed up that I wonder if I'll ever meet anybody again.

 

Those are my feelings on the matter.

 

Edit: sorry, went a bit off topic there. I'll add marriage is not a goal to make it at least a little relevant.

Edited March 16, 2013 by snowfun

[Got it]

I remember in 6th grade having to write a paragraph or two about how we envisioned our lives when we were 25 or 30 (I can't recall the exact age). I wrote this long story about how I would be an attorney, travel the world, would have my parents living with me in a big house (god forbid now! ) and I would have a SO in my life. I did not envision marriage even at 12 and I did not envision children. I do think my parents marriage played a factor into that and I did not know of any marriages that I wanted to emulate.

 

As I got older, started dating in high school and met me ex husband, marriage became a goal for us especially at the 18-20 years old range. That was too young so we kept dating. By the time we did marry it was because we had always planned on marrying and that was just what you did. We were both set on not having children and so married.

 

Over the past few decades my goals, dreams and desires have changed. What I have recognized with marriage is not about the state of the institution as it is an inanimate ideal but about the two parties in it. It is about how the decide the perimeters of their union, what each individual does to nurture it, or not, and how each individuals idiosyncrasies come into play. I do not think the institution of marriage is any magical state. I like the tax break and the automatic power of attorney, etc. but it is about that partnership that is my focus which is why I support same sex marriages, common law marriages, etc. I would love for the US to take a more global view on common law marriages like other countries and grant more rights to those unions. I am not religious so religious obligations or expectations don't play a factor to me.

[waterwoman]

Marriage is a red herring. A good lasting relationship is the goal IMO.

 

H and I got married after we'd been together for 10 years because we wanted to celebrate our relationship. And we wanted a damned good party - and it WAS! Never had a party like it and we are looking forward to celebrating our 20th anniversary (belatedly) with another even better party,

[AnotherRound]

When I was young, late teens, and met my exH - all I wanted was marriage. I was convinced (oh, how young and naive I was!) that once we were married, it would all work out - that we could survive on love. We did really well for a while - until we both started to grow up, and change... lol. It was a strange experience to find myself married and living with a young man that I did not like on most levels - I loved him, absolutely - but we were so different. And it was BIG differences - major issues about our concrete values and such.

 

That is the moment when I realized that marriage is a joke for most people (not all, some take it very seriously). That it is a safety net for a lot of people who want the security of being married but don't want to actually take the vows seriously (my exH being that person, bc I really tried). And I agree with what someone else above said - if both people aren't treating it with kindness and taking care of it - then it's null and void. And to me, it's ridiculous to try to hold onto that with a legal string - almost like a last ditch effort to keep something that isn't good for you. I don't get it - why people do that (I know that not everyone does, but a fair amount do).

 

I won't be married again - I don't see any reason for it. I will promise what I can to my SO - faithfulness, loyalty, that I will work at our R - the things I CAN promise. But, I don't need to be married - nor do I want it. I have my own income, my own home, my own health insurance - my own tax breaks... I don't need the legal benefits of marriage, nor would I take them in exchange for my ability to have a relationship that is 100% willing on both sides. I want my partner's 50% of the relationship to be 100% willing - not obligation, not external factors -just about us, he and I. If he doesn't want to be with me - I want him to be able to walk away, without penalty, and find happiness. He shouldn't be punished because something changed regarding emotions - it happens, it's human. And, if he chooses to not be with me or to force it - I admire that and wouldn't want it any other way.

 

If someone isn't with me out of absolute willingness (other things keeping them here - financial, children, etc.) I don't want that relationship. If it's not about he and I - it shouldn't influence whether or not we stay together. I don't want to punish someone for falling out of love with me or finding that they could be happier elsewhere - I want them to be happy and content - not keep trying to force a square peg into a round hole.

[LFH]

Marriage is a red herring. A good lasting relationship is the goal IMO.

 

H and I got married after we'd been together for 10 years because we wanted to celebrate our relationship. And we wanted a damned good party - and it WAS! Never had a party like it and we are looking forward to celebrating our 20th anniversary (belatedly) with another even better party,

 

No it really isn't meant to be a red herring, at least not here in my thread...

It's kind of my purpose of the thread, I'm trying to find out if one of the reason other APs are also involved in affairs is because to them the "traditional" path isn't all that important anymore, no longer is, or never was or if it still is.

I've had a number of people who are not APs post, and I'm happy to see that everyone is discussing so nicely (YAY!!!) and I'm glad that they're happy and value their marriages and stuff, and I don't mind them posting, but it isn't telling me if APs feel like me.

My relationship doesn't need to have a "goal" to be successful. Where we are IS successful.

[AnotherRound]

No it really isn't meant to be a red herring, at least not here in my thread...

It's kind of my purpose of the thread, I'm trying to find out if one of the reason other APs are also involved in affairs is because to them the "traditional" path isn't all that important anymore, no longer is, or never was or if it still is.

I've had a number of people who are not APs post, and I'm happy to see that everyone is discussing so nicely (YAY!!!) and I'm glad that they're happy and value their marriages and stuff, and I don't mind them posting, but it isn't telling me if APs feel like me.

My relationship doesn't need to have a "goal" to be successful. Where we are IS successful.

 

 

It's so coincidental that you posted this and the whole topic! I was just reading up on some statistics and such and posted the links somewhere on here (no idea where now, sorry, lol)... but I was reading one article talking about how the current generations are shunning marriage and such. It was interesting, and I find it to align with what I'm seeing in my personal life and with my clients. That the old institution of marriage - originally meant to increase wealth and assets and form alliances - is dying out rapidly among the younger generations.

 

I hope I live long enough to see how that all plays out! As someone interested in sociology, I keep an eye on those trends along with the dying trends of organized religion - watching the world change is fascinating.

 

It's always hard for some of the folks in a society to accept when an old tradition starts to die out. They fight it with everything that they have - but eventually (as seen in history) are dragged kicking and screaming along with the new wave of thoughts and beliefs into the new times. Look at the people that fought with everything they had to keep slavery - they eventually had to accept that the greater good was no longer allowing it, and it died out - abolished, no more. I think marriage will be re-worked - it will be less religious based, and if it can continue on in any form will be much less based on assets and such. I would love to see a form of marriage where unattainable promises are not made, where there can be cohesion without submission and giving up your own life - where coupling can happen without sacrificing the actual coupling for assets and legalities.

 

I will never partake in marriage again as it stands now. BUT, I have always thought that I could participate in a ceremony where attainable promises are made with all the intentions there without the legal ties that seem to cause so many damn problems for people in that they end up being punished financially and regarding their children if they can't make something work that just doesn't work - or they refuse to stay in the situation when it doesn't work.

[RainDown]

I'm trying to find out if one of the reason other APs are also involved in affairs is because to them the "traditional" path isn't all that important anymore, no longer is, or never was or if it still is.

 

OK, I'm an AP many times over, so I'll give it a go. No, I do not think one of the reasons I become involved in affairs is because the traditional path isn't appealing to me. I think it's merely a side effect. I get involved in affairs because marital status is of no interest or importance to me. When I meet someone who appeals to me and we mutually "click" I approach the relationship the same way, whether the person is single, married, divorced, engaged, whatever. I have my life, he has his life, and we have whatever it is we have. The latter is where I am focused. What he does outside of his dealings with me is not of interest to me. Of course, in casual discussion I do gain a general knowledge of their situation in life, but I do not discuss personal details about my other relationships with them and I'm not interested in hearing the personal details of their life either. Frankly, I'm shocked when I read these forums and see the level of intimate detail an OP knows about their married lover's marriage. I personally never allow a man to overshare with me the details of his relationship with someone else. I certainly would not like for him to share the details of our sex life or our relationship with other people and it's not OK with me for him to share details about someone else with me. Sorry if that gets me flamed, but I just think it's wrong to discuss intimate and private things about an affair partner's spouse.

 

But I digress; sorry about the tangent. In short, as an AP I do not believe my lack of interest in a traditional relationship is a reason that I'm an AP. I think it's a side effect of the fact that I take each person as they come - individually - no matter their "status". With that kind of attitude, there are bound to be married ones in the mix, statistically speaking. When I connect with someone, whether they are single or married just isn't a detail that matters to me.

[AnotherRound]

OK, I'm an AP many times over, so I'll give it a go. No, I do not think one of the reasons I become involved in affairs is because the traditional path isn't appealing to me. I think it's merely a side effect. I get involved in affairs because marital status is of no interest or importance to me. When I meet someone who appeals to me and we mutually "click" I approach the relationship the same way, whether the person is single, married, divorced, engaged, whatever. I have my life, he has his life, and we have whatever it is we have. The latter is where I am focused. What he does outside of his dealings with me is not of interest to me. Of course, in casual discussion I do gain a general knowledge of their situation in life, but I do not discuss personal details about my other relationships with them and I'm not interested in hearing the personal details of their life either. Frankly, I'm shocked when I read these forums and see the level of intimate detail an OP knows about their married lover's marriage. I personally never allow a man to overshare with me the details of his relationship with someone else. I certainly would not like for him to share the details of our sex life or our relationship with other people and it's not OK with me for him to share details about someone else with me. Sorry if that gets me flamed, but I just think it's wrong to discuss intimate and private things about an affair partner's spouse.

 

But I digress; sorry about the tangent. In short, as an AP I do not believe my lack of interest in a traditional relationship is a reason that I'm an AP. I think it's a side effect of the fact that I take each person as they come - individually - no matter their "status". With that kind of attitude, there are bound to be married ones in the mix, statistically speaking. When I connect with someone, whether they are single or married just isn't a detail that matters to me.

 

Agreed that my stance on marriage didn't make me become an AP - although, my stance on marriage allowed me to believe that he was being honest about the state of his marriage - and luckily, he was being honest about it. I took a risk, and it panned out - it could have went differently.

 

I didn't go into it knowing he was married as he withheld that from me initially bc he knew that I would reject him out of the gate for that. He wanted a chance to see if we clicked - and was hoping that I could look past the marriage if that happened - and he was right, I could - but only bc his wife knew about it. I wouldn't have participated in lying to her - and so that worked out for all three of us for quite some time.

 

I won't do it again - but only because I now see that it enables people (him and his exW in my situation) to stay in what I see as a very unhealthy and unhappy place - and I just don't want to be involved in that in any form - even as the OW who was pretty happy with the set up for quite some time. I just don't want any part in unhealthy activity - even a sideline part - just, no... lol. I was preventing them, enabling them, whatever - to live an untrue life - and that was my issue with it. Their marriage was for other purposes entirely - nothing about the two of them, or love, or commitment to each other - only about keeping the status quo and the image, mostly for the sake of their children - which I vehemently disagree with.

 

So, I agree - it wasn't like I said, "eff marriage, I will have a married man"... lol. It was simply that I accept that some marriages are facades and decided that the love he and I had was worth my participation for a while -eventually it wasn't as I didn't feel good about helping them lead such dishonest lives. But that was all about me and my discomfort - they would have carried on until the kids were out and maybe beyond that - and I can't even fathom it.

[RainDown]

Agreed that my stance on marriage didn't make me become an AP - although, my stance on marriage allowed me to believe that he was being honest about the state of his marriage - and luckily, he was being honest about it. I took a risk, and it panned out - it could have went differently.

 

I didn't go into it knowing he was married as he withheld that from me initially bc he knew that I would reject him out of the gate for that. He wanted a chance to see if we clicked - and was hoping that I could look past the marriage if that happened - and he was right, I could - but only bc his wife knew about it. I wouldn't have participated in lying to her - and so that worked out for all three of us for quite some time.

 

I won't do it again - but only because I now see that it enables people (him and his exW in my situation) to stay in what I see as a very unhealthy and unhappy place - and I just don't want to be involved in that in any form - even as the OW who was pretty happy with the set up for quite some time. I just don't want any part in unhealthy activity - even a sideline part - just, no... lol. I was preventing them, enabling them, whatever - to live an untrue life - and that was my issue with it. Their marriage was for other purposes entirely - nothing about the two of them, or love, or commitment to each other - only about keeping the status quo and the image, mostly for the sake of their children - which I vehemently disagree with.

 

So, I agree - it wasn't like I said, "eff marriage, I will have a married man"... lol. It was simply that I accept that some marriages are facades and decided that the love he and I had was worth my participation for a while -eventually it wasn't as I didn't feel good about helping them lead such dishonest lives. But that was all about me and my discomfort - they would have carried on until the kids were out and maybe beyond that - and I can't even fathom it.

 

Yes, I get what you are saying (the bolded part), but I disagree that you were doing any preventing or enabling anyone from staying in the situation they are in. I've come to understand that people do what they do irrespective of my participation or input. I don't believe I have any influence over anyone's primary relationship; I may be a player on the stage but the main action is happening between the established duo that I have been invited into, for whatever reason. Once you've been involved in enough of these triad relationships you begin to see and understand that the initial dyad is driving the train. I do not see that dyad as my business or concern and I certainly don't see it as my place to decide how they "should" be conducting their relationship and if they are indeed living some kind of inauthentic life. If a grown adult decides to live an inauthentic life, that is not my responsibility or problem to solve. I've been involved with many a person who's personal or marital life is "messy". I don't assume any responsibility for that - it has nothing to do with me.

 

I think you are a little off-base in thinking that you were "enabling" an unhealthy marriage to continue to be unhealthy. The dyad is going to click along unhealthily doing what it does irrespective of your or my "enabling". I've learned along the way that we OP are not nearly as impactful or important as we think we are. For the most part, when push comes to shove, the dyad joins together, circles the wagons and protects their union.

 

I think anyone who entertains ideas about what another's marriage is, or is not, or what the other means to that marriage is seriously overthinking the matter. You cannot know and do not know anything about the dynamic of the dyad relationship unless you are a fly on the wall. The only certainty one has as an other is that the true dyad dynamic is not something you, as an unwelcome triad party, will ever understand the true nature of.

 

It sounds all noble and all to say that you will never enable other people to act out their "unhealthy activity", but for all you know that "unhealthy activity" is a necessary ingredient for the dyad to attain growth.

 

Many OP do not know, and do not want to know, that they are a fringe party who has been drawn in to balance or correct something in the original dyad and that is where their role ends. And when the OP pushes for more, we see what generally happens - the dyad wins out and the OP goes straight under the bus.

 

It is a serious mistake for an OP to assume more importance than they really have. The dyad will continue on in most cases, AR, with or without your participation or enabling.