do you think your MP had/s a Personality Disorder?

[cocorico]

I'd call ruining one's marriage significant impairment in social functioning, wouldn't you? .

 

If the M is itself causing significant impairment to social functioning, then "ruining" one's M would, OTC, result in significant improvement to social functioning. This was certainly true in my H's case.

[AnotherRound]

True that those traits are pervasive, and exist since early adulthood. They don't come and go, they are very difficult to treat, and would require a tremendous amount of counseling to really be cured from it. The disorder also causes significant impairment in social or other functioning. I'd call ruining one's marriage significant impairment in social functioning, wouldn't you? It doesn't have to limit them in every area of life, just one, in order to be considered significant impairment. Just look at star athletes for example who may cheat on their spouse. They may have NPD that doesn't negatively affect their occupational life, but it certainly negatively affects their social functioning, since it ruins their relationships. In order to be diagnosed with NPD, you have to have at least five of the diagnostic criteria, it will have had to be present since early adulthood, and cause significant impairment in at least one area of functioning (i.e., social, occupational, academic or other functioning). The rate of personality disorders in the general population is estimated at 10%, although many with NPD never seek treatment because they don't think they need it, because they are narcissistic and think there is nothing wrong with them.

 

It has to ruin multiple relationships in reality - not just a marriage. Pervasive would mean that it would affect many relationships, if not all - parent/child, friendship, sibling, etc. It can't just be a marriage - if all of their other relationships are quite well, and only the marriage is being affected by their so called NPD - then no, it's not pervasive, but situational - and the deduction at that point would be that there is something dysfunctional with that particular relationship -not the person. ????

 

I appreciate your better than average knowledge on this - but there are still a few misguided beliefs here. I could not, and would not, diagnose someone with a PD if they have one relationship that is not functioning ... there would need to be pervasive impairment across the board - consistently.

 

Some of what you are describing could simply be someone withdrawing emotionally from a relationship that isn't working for them - that's not a PD -but a healthy mechanism of self preservation - especially if it's only happening in one relationship in their life.

[MissBee]

FOO issues are probably much more common than full blown NPD.

 

 

I think so too!

[Poppy fields]

My AP did not have a PD but apparently I do. I have been diagnosed BPD. I am no longer able to work because I was put on so much medication. That was for my bipolar though, not my BPD. I am starting to question all of my diagnosis labels though.

 

Do I think that my BPD led to my being involved in an affair? Perhaps. I guess I am just not that introspective at this point.

[Pierre]

The full blown case of NPD is probably not that common, but there are tons of people with narcissistic traits. The hallmark is lack of empathy.

 

Yo have an EMR the cheating spouse must have lack of empathy to the betrayed spouse.

 

Later on on d-day the same cheating spouse shows lack of empathy for the AP. This forum of full of these examples.

 

Men with narcissistic traits attract potential OWs . That is what the forum demonstrates on a daily basis.

[KathyM]

If the M is itself causing significant impairment to social functioning, then "ruining" one's M would, OTC, result in significant improvement to social functioning. This was certainly true in my H's case.

Marriage does not cause impairment in functioning. The people involved in the marriage cause impairment to their marriage because of their negative traits.

[KathyM]

It has to ruin multiple relationships in reality - not just a marriage.

Not really. It just has to be a pervasive trait. Some might try to control it after severely damaging one marriage. My ex brother-in-law has been married to his next wife for many years, after his divorce from my sister. He has the traits indicated, but he tries to control it so that he doesn't lose his current marriage, but he still has those traits: lack of empathy, grandiose sense of self, etc.

 

Pervasive would mean that it would affect many relationships, if not all - parent/child, friendship, sibling, etc. It can't just be a marriage - if all of their other relationships are quite well, and only the marriage is being affected by their so called NPD - then no, it's not pervasive, but situational - and the deduction at that point would be that there is something dysfunctional with that particular relationship -not the person. ????

It doesn't have to be pervasive over every relationship. There are plenty of cheating men out there who have ruined their marriages, but yet they have a great relationship with their mother or their sister, they just don't see the need to be faithful to their spouse because they have a sense of entitlement and self gratification. Just think of all the people with Antisocial Personality Disorder who go on to commit crimes, yet their mother or family claim he was always such a nice boy, and always treated his mother well.

I appreciate your better than average knowledge on this - but there are still a few misguided beliefs here. I could not, and would not, diagnose someone with a PD if they have one relationship that is not functioning ... there would need to be pervasive impairment across the board - consistently.

Plenty of criminals out there with APD who have a close and loving relationship with their mother. They just don't treat certain other people very well.

 

Some of what you are describing could simply be someone withdrawing emotionally from a relationship that isn't working for them - that's not a PD -but a healthy mechanism of self preservation - especially if it's only happening in one relationship in their life.

I'm not saying every cheating man/woman has full blown NPD. It would depend on the circumstances. Certainly a serial cheater would be likely to have it. Someone that keeps his wife in limbo and lies to her month after month has no empathy for her, has a sense of entitlement, etc. Maybe someone who cheated briefly, felt a lot of remorse, and never cheated again, may not have full blown NPD. Maybe someone that was about to divorce and had an affair at the very tail end of his marriage before leaving it might not be NPD.

[AnotherRound]

Another round:

 

As a scholar of religion I understand intimately first hand how it can irk a professional to see misinformation passed around. I too often on LS see that very thing in the religion section <examples redacted as off-topic>

 

Anyways, to avoid my getting irked I just try to stay out of the religion forums, and when I do go in them I understand that they are mostly lay people who are NOT interested in professional opinion (or else they would have sought it as I did.) I think what another poster said in here about people speaking in generalizations because who has the time to define every word they use. I don't even proof read on here lol

 

I can understand that, for sure! I do try to avoid the BS side of the forums for this reason - but over here, I kind of feel like I need to share the information as I see some being convinced that they have a PD or that their MAP does - when in actuality, it's pretty unlikely that they actually do. It's hard to watch someone take this seriously and then beat themselves up over it when it's not a real diagnosis and it's absolutely "normal" and healthy to exhibit some of these traits some times, and in certain situations.

 

I understand that not everyone is interested in a professional opinion -but when I see a layman's opinion doing harm, it's very difficult to let that ride bc this is mental health and I would hate for someone to take some kind of irreversible action due to something someone said that was absolutely incorrect.

 

I didn't even know that there is a religious forum here - !!!!

[KathyM]

My AP did not have a PD but apparently I do. I have been diagnosed BPD. I am no longer able to work because I was put on so much medication. That was for my bipolar though, not my BPD. I am starting to question all of my diagnosis labels though.

 

Do I think that my BPD led to my being involved in an affair? Perhaps. I guess I am just not that introspective at this point.

One trait of BPD is lack of impulse control. And if you have a tendency to idolize people, as borderlines do, that may make you vulnerable to an affair. In fact, BPD people often hook up with people with NPD, because their dysfunction (no offense) complements each other. The narrcissist has an excessive need for admiration. The borderline has an excessive desire to idolize people.

[KathyM]

Another round:

 

As a scholar of religion I understand intimately first hand how it can irk a professional to see misinformation passed around. I too often on LS see that very thing in the religion section <examples redacted as off-topic>

 

Anyways, to avoid my getting irked I just try to stay out of the religion forums, and when I do go in them I understand that they are mostly lay people who are NOT interested in professional opinion (or else they would have sought it as I did.) I think what another poster said in here about people speaking in generalizations because who has the time to define every word they use. I don't even proof read on here lol

I took my information directly from the DSM. I am about to get my Master's Degree in Counseling Psychology. I work as a counseling intern. I wouldn't exactly call myself a lay person. I memorized the entire DSM and diagnose people IRL on a daily basis.

[AnotherRound]

Not really. It just has to be a pervasive trait. Some might try to control it after severely damaging one marriage. My ex brother-in-law has been married to his next wife for many years, after his divorce from my sister. He has the traits indicated, but he tries to control it so that he doesn't lose his current marriage, but he still has those traits: lack of empathy, grandiose sense of self, etc.

 

 

It doesn't have to be pervasive over every relationship. There are plenty of cheating men out there who have ruined their marriages, but yet they have a great relationship with their mother or their sister, they just don't see the need to be faithful to their spouse because they have a sense of entitlement and self gratification. Just think of all the people with Antisocial Personality Disorder who go on to commit crimes, yet their mother or family claim he was always such a nice boy, and always treated his mother well.

 

Plenty of criminals out there with APD who have a close and loving relationship with their mother. They just don't treat certain other people very well.

 

 

I'm not saying every cheating man/woman has full blown NPD. It would depend on the circumstances. Certainly a serial cheater would be likely to have it. Someone that keeps his wife in limbo and lies to her month after month has no empathy for her, has a sense of entitlement, etc. Maybe someone who cheated briefly, felt a lot of remorse, and never cheated again, may not have full blown NPD. Maybe someone that was about to divorce and had an affair at the very tail end of his marriage before leaving it might not be NPD.

 

Um - it really does have to be affecting more than just their marriage for a diagnosis. If a person is exhibiting NPD traits with their wife - but with nobody else in their life - then that relationship is dysfunctional. I'm not sure what your background is, but I've been trained to diagnose - and have diagnosed NPD legally - and yeah, it has to have a pervasive pattern - it can't be spotty or "sometimes" or "with only this person"... ?????

 

NPD is not having "no empathy" for their wife - they would have no empathy for anyone. That's pervasive - it's across the board. If you can't prove that it affects more than one relationship (in which they may be exhibiting traits, sure) then you're going to have a hell of a time getting that dx to stick. Also, there are times where it is necessary to not show empathy - those times can't be considered if the person CAN show empathy and can exhibit true empathy.

 

The other stuff - feeling entitled and such - is not abnormal behavior unless pervasive and severely limiting functioning. If it is working for them and there is no limit of functioning - then it's not a clinical level and can't be diagnosed.

 

I don't know what your background is, but I have extensive training regarding the DSM and diagnosing and am legally licensed to do so. I have been able to diagnose a few people with NPD - and when called to court, had to prove that dx and was successful in doing so - but that is NOT an easy process and I had to be able to provide many examples of the traits - across the board. They would have laughed me out of the court room had I said "well, he exhibits it with his wife, but nobody else".

[AnotherRound]

I took my information directly from the DSM. I am about to get my Master's Degree in Counseling Psychology. I work as a counseling intern. I wouldn't exactly call myself a lay person. I memorized the entire DSM and diagnose people IRL on a daily basis.

 

If you don't have a MS in Counseling yet, and are not fully licensed - you are not legally able to diagnose people yet. I'm hopeful that you are being trained in how to do so - but am assuming that you are getting ready to start your 2 year provisional - working under someone that can legally diagnose.

 

I don't have the DSM memorized, lol... too busy working to do that. But, I use it daily and I am concerned about your misconceptions regarding diagnosing. I hope that you clear this up for yourself prior to being called to testify in court - the other side will tear you to shreds on this one if you can't prove it is pervasive.

[LadyGrey]

I can understand that, for sure! I do try to avoid the BS side of the forums for this reason - but over here, I kind of feel like I need to share the information as I see some being convinced that they have a PD or that their MAP does - when in actuality, it's pretty unlikely that they actually do. It's hard to watch someone take this seriously and then beat themselves up over it when it's not a real diagnosis and it's absolutely "normal" and healthy to exhibit some of these traits some times, and in certain situations.

 

OK, so I am asking you since you are the professional here, how do you know they don't have it? Do you diagnose people over the internet through random posts? Does your profession qualify you to tell someone their opinion is invalid, after all, all you are doing is sharing your own opinion,it's not a professional diagnosis over an internet forum, right?

 

I understand that not everyone is interested in a professional opinion -but when I see a layman's opinion doing harm, it's very difficult to let that ride bc this is mental health and I would hate for someone to take some kind of irreversible action due to something someone said that was absolutely incorrect.

 

Also just because layman post here, after all it is forum, I would think you as a professional would be extra cautious that you would try to do no harm. I would like to cite an example of what you said to a BS who was triggering but the TOS prevents me from doing so. Ironic that you write these words but don't seem to abide by them yourself.

 

I didn't even know that there is a religious forum here - !!!!

 

See bolded

[spice4life]

One trait of BPD is lack of impulse control. And if you have a tendency to idolize people, as borderlines do, that may make you vulnerable to an affair. In fact, BPD people often hook up with people with NPD, because their dysfunction (no offense) complements each other. The narrcissist has an excessive need for admiration. The borderline has an excessive desire to idolize people.

 

That is until the one they idolize does something to religate (sp?) them to the opposite end of the spectrum - the bad split. That throne is only temporary and it could change at any time.

[William]

Let's steer this back to whether affair partner's *think* their MP's had/have a personality disorder and dispense with the professional debates. LoveShack.org is a layperson's opinion discussion forum. Hope that message is clear. Thanks.

[AnotherRound]

See bolded

 

*sigh* Okay... lol.

 

No, I am not diagnosing over the internet - I am simply urging people to be careful about applying these labels too often and too easily. These are very hard dx to get - they are not given lightly - and are hard to prove and stick. That's all - I wanted to provide information to others who were interested, and maybe being accused wrongly of having a disorder, regarding how those dx are gotten - how rare they are - and to not take it too much to heart from people that aren't trained to do so (as they may not e aware of the rigorous tests that these dx have to pass to "stick" and the rarity of true PD dx).

 

Secondly - yes, I took an oath to do no harm, and I take that very seriously and would never do anything to hurt my clients in any way, shape or form as they trust me with a very vulnerable part of themselves and I will always treat that with respect and reverence. This is a public forum - I am not working - I am in my down time, we have signed no contracts - and I am human and have opinions, thoughts, and get frustrated just like everyone else.

 

<Further comments redacted as off-topic and personal>

Edited March 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[KathyM]

If you don't have a MS in Counseling yet, and are not fully licensed - you are not legally able to diagnose people yet. I'm hopeful that you are being trained in how to do so - but am assuming that you are getting ready to start your 2 year provisional - working under someone that can legally diagnose.

 

I have one class left before getting my Master's in Counseling. I am legally allowed to diagnose people under my supervisor's license. I will have one more year of internship after I graduate before I can become licensed. I will be getting all of my required hours of internship in one year's time after graduation this summer. I've already had almost one year of counseling traineeship under my supervisor's license. I have one more year left of internship before I can get my license.

 

I don't have the DSM memorized, lol... too busy working to do that. But, I use it daily and I am concerned about your misconceptions regarding diagnosing. I hope that you clear this up for yourself prior to being called to testify in court - the other side will tear you to shreds on this one if you can't prove it is pervasive.

I HAVE memorized the DSM, and have a very clear understanding of it, and refer to it on a daily basis, just to make sure I am accurate with my diagnosing. I'm very careful with diagnosing people and have accurately diagnosed people who other licensed counselors have misdiagnosed. I agree that personality disorders are pervasive, but just like with Antisocial Personality Disorder, those traits don't always play out in every relationship. Surely you've heard of criminals who had a good relationship with their parents. What about that Peterson dude who killed his wife, who supposedly was a model son, brother and employee. He could certainly be diagnosed with APD.