The Apple

[pie2]

It didn't change Paul's view when he wrote that women are the "weaker vessel". Though his point wasn't to denigrate women but rather show its mens' job to keep them from getting led astray.

 

Paul wrote 1 Peter 3:7 to husbands about their wives (and that is a whole different topic). Not about men and women!

 

I think it's notable that I've never been to a church, where the pews were overrun by men...ever. But I have been to churches who have maybe a 5:1 female to male ratio .

 

Within the male population as a whole, I think that pride trips up a good portion, and many men refuse to rely on God at all. Not that women don't have issues!! I just think we are equally fallen.

[pureinheart]

It didn't change Paul's view when he wrote that women are the "weaker vessel". Though his point wasn't to denigrate women but rather show its mens' job to keep them from getting led astray.

 

I am weaker than my male counterpart in some ways. Paul got misinterpreted a lot, but common sense tells me that Paul never meant anything uncool in anything.

 

I'm also naive, and so it would have been nice to have had a strong male counterpart, but subconsciously I think I chose men that I could control...well maybe not control in the sense that most think of, but being strong willed I hate being told what to do, submission was not a strong point...it's amazing what the woodshed can do:D

[pureinheart]

Paul wrote 1 Peter 3:7 to husbands about their wives (and that is a whole different topic). Not about men and women!

 

I think it's notable that I've never been to a church, where the pews were overrun by men...ever. But I have been to churches who have maybe a 5:1 female to male ratio .

 

Within the male population as a whole, I think that pride trips up a good portion, and many men refuse to rely on God at all. Not that women don't have issues!! I just think we are equally fallen.

 

Lord have mercy Pie, when first getting saved and being around couples, if I had a dime for every time I heard the husbands use scripture to control their wives, ALWAYS forgetting what Paul had to say to them....FTR, this is not meant for any guys on here, just letting off some steam:)...oh that used to anger me as I watched the women try to defend themselves.

 

I think for centuries things have been out of order...men oppressing women to extreme, then the opposite extreme. I give up and will stay married to Jesus.

 

We are equally fallen and that is really well put Pie...I know I'm a pain in the backside to live with, only Jesus can handle me:)

[pureinheart]

First of all, noone knows what fruit exactly was on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. While apples are specifically mentioned in the Bible, the exact kind of fruit on that tree was not mentioned in Genesis 3.

 

The following verses where apples are mentioned are used in figurative language, which is interesting: Deuteronomy 32:10, Psalm 17:8, Proverbs 7:2, Zechariah 2:8 are about "apple of... eye", which is a really beautiful expression of care for whoever/whatever is called that.

 

There's a song I LOVE about "whoever touches you, touches the apple of my eye" by Benny Hester:

 

 

Song of Solomon has a few references to apples: real ones, as part of descriptions of the love and beloved descriptions of each other. It's really cool.

 

About where Adam was, Genesis 3:6 says he was with her.

 

My husband, when we have talked about this, has a serious issue with Adam not protecting Eve from the apparition tempting her to disobey the one and only "No" command God gave them.

 

 

I think that's possible, though stronger love would have loved her enough to have told the apparition in the form of a snake to go take a hike! Adam had the authority and ability to do that, my husband thinks. Maybe he got lost though in the deceitful words? I wonder if this was the only "animal" that talked in Adam and Eve's time? Maybe that was intriguing to them. If the snake was the only animal in their time that talked, why? How?

 

The only other place that I can think of in Biblical history where an animal talked was in

 

Numbers 22:28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

 

I want God to open my darling dog's mouth!!! (And no I would never ever beat my darling dog like mean ole Balaam beat his donkey. I do wish she could understand all my words and she could communicate more with me and I with her... it makes me sad that she doesn't understand when I tell her why I am going somewhere and leaving her for a short period of time, and also why she needs a bath... she hates baths and I really wish she wouldn't roll in yucky stuff... I've told her over and over again that if she would not roll in stuff, I wouldn't have to bathe her so often... I'm sorry... I'm rambling but I animals and really wish many species could talk in more than just barks,grunts, squeals, roars...) I am a hypocrite though in that I eat chicken and fish. My "excuse" is that other animals eat other animals, so that's why humans can too, but I really do wish that no animals, including humans, ate other animals. I think that before the fall, animals didn't eat each other, and humans were vegetarians! That is the ideal, in my opinion!

 

Two of my all time favorite verses is where it seems that animals are vegetarians, including wolves , lions, cougars, and snakes!

 

Isaiah 11:6

 

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

 

Isaiah 65:25The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the Lord.

 

 

 

I think so. Women have tremendous power.

 

I think it would have been very tempting and yes I probably would too. I have heard Atheists say what's the bad thing in wanting to know more. I personally think the bad thing is in what one is wanting to know. If I wanted, I could learn about how to steal from people, but I don't want to. Why? Stealing is evil. At that time, i don't know if Adam and Eve even knew stealing was evil... all they knew was they were in charge of the animals and tending the garden of Eden, and that God said "No" to eating from one specific tree... how hard is that???

 

The knowledge of good and evil brought forth a lot of knowledge of evil... and good to combat the evil.

 

However, good to combat the evil carries the risk of being hurt since evil doesn't want to be conquered, which is why many people who have fought against the evil of slavery have been killed, including Elijah Lovejoy, and many who have peaceably fought against the evil of have been killed, including Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.... and Jesus Christ. However, Christians believe that our Heavenly Father rose Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and that he will triumph over evil!!!

 

This is an interesting topic!!! I really wish I could stay on loveshack and follow/participate more, but this weekend is busy and on Monday I have a new project that requires more time. So, I'm taking a break from Loveshack for awhile, I don't know how long.

 

I love you guys and am so happy to "know" you through this social network!!! Peace and Blessings!!!

 

Girl, your husband is a KEEPER with a capitol K. From all I've heard you speak of him...wow.

 

I have heard that before about the apple not being the actual "fruit"...quite interesting.

 

I am soooo happy for your new project, but being the selfish individual that I am...well you will be greatly missed...

 

I love you too Bethy!

[pie2]

We are equally fallen...I know I'm a pain in the backside to live with, only Jesus can handle me:)

 

Good thing he can handle me too!

 

I absolutely think there is a reason God tells wives to submit to their husbands! It's an area we struggle with, but it's all part of God's perfect design for our lives. And I think it takes a spiritual warrior to be able to submit! God didn't give us women that task because we are faint of heart, lol!

 

But alas, many wives abuse their role, just as many husbands let the "power" go to their heads .

[pureinheart]

First of all, noone knows what fruit exactly was on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. While apples are specifically mentioned in the Bible, the exact kind of fruit on that tree was not mentioned in Genesis 3.

 

The following verses where apples are mentioned are used in figurative language, which is interesting: Deuteronomy 32:10, Psalm 17:8, Proverbs 7:2, Zechariah 2:8 are about "apple of... eye", which is a really beautiful expression of care for whoever/whatever is called that.

 

There's a song I LOVE about "whoever touches you, touches the apple of my eye" by Benny Hester:

 

 

Song of Solomon has a few references to apples: real ones, as part of descriptions of the love and beloved descriptions of each other. It's really cool.

 

About where Adam was, Genesis 3:6 says he was with her.

 

My husband, when we have talked about this, has a serious issue with Adam not protecting Eve from the apparition tempting her to disobey the one and only "No" command God gave them.

 

 

I think that's possible, though stronger love would have loved her enough to have told the apparition in the form of a snake to go take a hike! Adam had the authority and ability to do that, my husband thinks. Maybe he got lost though in the deceitful words? I wonder if this was the only "animal" that talked in Adam and Eve's time? Maybe that was intriguing to them. If the snake was the only animal in their time that talked, why? How?

 

The only other place that I can think of in Biblical history where an animal talked was in

 

Numbers 22:28 Then the Lord opened the donkey’s mouth, and it said to Balaam, “What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?”

 

I want God to open my darling dog's mouth!!! (And no I would never ever beat my darling dog like mean ole Balaam beat his donkey. I do wish she could understand all my words and she could communicate more with me and I with her... it makes me sad that she doesn't understand when I tell her why I am going somewhere and leaving her for a short period of time, and also why she needs a bath... she hates baths and I really wish she wouldn't roll in yucky stuff... I've told her over and over again that if she would not roll in stuff, I wouldn't have to bathe her so often... I'm sorry... I'm rambling but I animals and really wish many species could talk in more than just barks,grunts, squeals, roars...) I am a hypocrite though in that I eat chicken and fish. My "excuse" is that other animals eat other animals, so that's why humans can too, but I really do wish that no animals, including humans, ate other animals. I think that before the fall, animals didn't eat each other, and humans were vegetarians! That is the ideal, in my opinion!

 

Two of my all time favorite verses is where it seems that animals are vegetarians, including wolves , lions, cougars, and snakes!

 

Isaiah 11:6

 

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

 

Isaiah 65:25The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the Lord.

 

 

 

I think so. Women have tremendous power.

 

I think it would have been very tempting and yes I probably would too. I have heard Atheists say what's the bad thing in wanting to know more. I personally think the bad thing is in what one is wanting to know. If I wanted, I could learn about how to steal from people, but I don't want to. Why? Stealing is evil. At that time, i don't know if Adam and Eve even knew stealing was evil... all they knew was they were in charge of the animals and tending the garden of Eden, and that God said "No" to eating from one specific tree... how hard is that???

 

The knowledge of good and evil brought forth a lot of knowledge of evil... and good to combat the evil.

 

However, good to combat the evil carries the risk of being hurt since evil doesn't want to be conquered, which is why many people who have fought against the evil of slavery have been killed, including Elijah Lovejoy, and many who have peaceably fought against the evil of have been killed, including Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.... and Jesus Christ. However, Christians believe that our Heavenly Father rose Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and that he will triumph over evil!!!

 

This is an interesting topic!!! I really wish I could stay on loveshack and follow/participate more, but this weekend is busy and on Monday I have a new project that requires more time. So, I'm taking a break from Loveshack for awhile, I don't know how long.

 

I love you guys and am so happy to "know" you through this social network!!! Peace and Blessings!!!

 

Well girl, you will be missed- I wrote a reply last night to you but lost it...oh man, that is so frustrating!

 

LOL, I forgot that the apple wasn't the actual fruit..

 

Also want to say that your husband is a KEEPER, what a cool guy and you have been truly blessed!

 

Again, you'll be missed! I hope you will check in from time to time should your schedule allow it....we love you Bethy!:love::love:

 

Oh wow, my post did go through...oh well double I love you's!

[Techie Artist]

I am a hypocrite though in that I eat chicken and fish. My "excuse" is that other animals eat other animals, so that's why humans can too, but I really do wish that no animals, including humans, ate other animals. I think that before the fall, animals didn't eat each other, and humans were vegetarians! That is the ideal, in my opinion!

 

Two of my all time favorite verses is where it seems that animals are vegetarians, including wolves , lions, cougars, and snakes!

Isaiah 11:6

 

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

 

Isaiah 65:25The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the Lord.

 

An evangelist at my church explained that there was no need for the spillage of blood before the fall. All were vegetarians, there was no pain in childbirth, and the weather would not require clothing. We literally took on an appetite for blood after the fall. And this all relates to the need for clean sacrifices leading up to the Lamb of God.

[TheFinalWord]

This is invaluable advice and MUCH appreciated. "Jesus knew His mission"...personally, I think we all have somewhat of an idea what our mission is and I think "being helpfull" can be a good way to deture from ones actual mission. I do this all of the time...I wish I could be more like Jesus:(

 

Have you been told what a blessing you are lately TFW? You are a blessing. Bigtime:)

 

It's not easy! But yeah, we can very easily get entangled in taking on other people's problems, at the expense of our own health.

 

And thank for the kind words

[M30USA]

Have you been told what a blessing you are lately TFW?

 

I glanced over that quickly, without realizing who it was in reference to, and I thought it said: WTF?

 

LOL, sorry, just had to get that in there!

[TheFinalWord]

I glanced over that quickly, without realizing who it was in reference to, and I thought it said: WTF?

 

LOL, sorry, just had to get that in there!

 

I was wondering if anyone would ever point that out.

Edited March 24, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

I glanced over that quickly, without realizing who it was in reference to, and I thought it said: WTF?

 

LOL, sorry, just had to get that in there!

 

Can't stop laughing...this is too funny!

[pureinheart]

An evangelist at my church explained that there was no need for the spillage of blood before the fall. All were vegetarians, there was no pain in childbirth, and the weather would not require clothing. We literally took on an appetite for blood after the fall. And this all relates to the need for clean sacrifices leading up to the Lamb of God.

 

This trips me out... mean just the whole thing- the Ark of the Covenant containing the first ashes of the very first sacrifice.

[Grumpybutfun]

Yea, but "Paradise Lost" is a really difficult read. Not only because the subject matter but also because it's written in Old English with zillions of references to mythological stories outside the Bible.

 

As an aside- Actually John Milton's epic poem "Paradise Lost" was written in 1667 and is not in Olde English. Olde English are works written by Anglo Saxons until the 12th century. Though it is based on biblical verses, you are correct, it is a secular text. However, during the 17th century most poetry and art had a focus on Bible Stories as it was considered morally corrupt to write about other mythologies such as Greek or Roman tales. The most interesting aspect of this epic poem is the fact that half of the poem is narrated by Satan and gives him a sympathetic view which Milton has been villified over by the religious communities who are offended.

Most of popular cultural views of the Adam and Eve story comes from Milton and not the Holy Bible. The story was hugely popular and gave men a reasoning for why men need to be leaders as opposed to women as Eve failed. However, I always saw the apple as a metaphor for knowledge and Eve's bite as tempted by Satan was the only way that humankind could ever know sin and redemption, grace and forgiveness.

Just some background on that...carry on.

Grumps

[M30USA]

As an aside- Actually John Milton's epic poem "Paradise Lost" was written in 1667 and is not in Olde English. Olde English are works written by Anglo Saxons until the 12th century. Though it is based on biblical verses, you are correct, it is a secular text. However, during the 17th century most poetry and art had a focus on Bible Stories as it was considered morally corrupt to write about other mythologies such as Greek or Roman tales. The most interesting aspect of this epic poem is the fact that half of the poem is narrated by Satan and gives him a sympathetic view which Milton has been villified over by the religious communities who are offended.

Most of popular cultural views of the Adam and Eve story comes from Milton and not the Holy Bible. The story was hugely popular and gave men a reasoning for why men need to be leaders as opposed to women as Eve failed. However, I always saw the apple as a metaphor for knowledge and Eve's bite as tempted by Satan was the only way that humankind could ever know sin and redemption, grace and forgiveness.

Just some background on that...carry on.

Grumps

 

Have you read the entire book? For what purpose did you read it? School? Leisure?

 

Btw, old English is a highly vague term which can mean basically any form of English that is outdated in dialect and word usage. You are using a strict definition while I am using loose. Just like the difference between classical or romantic music. Beethoven is tehcnically romantic but most people generalize it as classical.

Edited March 25, 2013 by M30USA

[Grumpybutfun]

It didn't change Paul's view when he wrote that women are the "weaker vessel". Though his point wasn't to denigrate women but rather show its mens' job to keep them from getting led astray.

 

This is possibly due to educational differences as Paul knew that most women were not allowed to be educated so they had to rely on male relatives to read to them or teach them since they were not allowed to go to religious houses/churches/synagogues due to their gender. Women were already denigrated in that culture and therefore, this religion just furthered the belief that women were second-hand citizens, could not learn, had no role except as breeders and workers, or were morally corruptible due to their weak mind. This isn't really Paul's fault as he was following cultural customs of the time period and the regions.

Also, many argue that Paul meant that women were weaker in body, as in strength and body mass therefore they would still need protection as this was a difficult and chaotic time for lawlessness and violence. It is possible he meant both.

Unfortunately, women and men in this religion still believe this and women are continuously mentally, physically and verbally abused by men because of Paul's teachings that women need to be helped from being "led astray." It is easy to use those words to convince people that men are superior and must be obeyed as head of the household, even if they are rageful and unintelligent. That is, IMHO, very dangerous to half of the world's population and highly offensive to the other half.

Grumps

[M30USA]

I am highly, highly offended that men can't birth children. Highly offended. I think it's oppressive and offensive to 50% of the population.

 

Grumpy, whose standard are you using by declaring Paul's comments as offensive? Your own? If so, what makes you an expert on this matter? Do you believe your 30-60 years on this planet outweighs the wisdom of 4,000 years of Scripture which has withstood hundreds of civilizations and world views? (Most importantly you are placing your own opinion over the revealed Word of God.)

Edited March 25, 2013 by M30USA

[Grumpybutfun]

Have you read the entire book? For what purpose did you read it? School? Leisure?

 

Btw, old English is a highly vague term which can mean basically any form of English that is outdated in dialect and word usage. You are using a strict definition while I am using loose. Just like the difference between classical or romantic music. Beethoven is tehcnically romantic but most people generalize it as classical.

I read all 12 books of Paradise Lost and the later Paradise Regained. I actually wrote a thesis on the correlation between Eve and the Garden of Eden's decline after the temptation and Satan's rise for my graduate degree in English a long time ago. I also read it for leisure a few years ago from the same book I had in college.

Old English is an old Germanic (Anglo-Saxon) language spoken between the 5th and the 12th century. An example of Old English would be Beowulf. Middle English would be The Canterbury Tales. Shakespeare's words are considered Modern English. Milton wrote his poem years after Shakespeare just to put it in context.

Go back and read it. Except for the loss of an e or a r or t in some places it is quite modern. The difficulty may have been in the blank verse style of epic poetry in iambic pentameter. After readng The Odyssey, The Aeneid, or The Illiad, Milton's works were easier to read. Perhaps it is just what you get used to.

It isn't "old" English either since it is Modern English, therefore your classical music reference doesn't realy work. I probably wouldn't have taken so much time to refute this but you seem to enjoy information.

Grumps

[M30USA]

I'll trust your expertise on the Old English definition.

 

What is your take on the similarities or differences between PL's account of the fall of man and that of Bible? I noticed PL seemed to almost sympathize with Satans perspective. But that just might be because he was the protagonist.

[M30USA]

Grumpy, now that we are talking about this, I just remembered I did read Paradise Regained. Wasn't it a lot shorter? I didn't know there were 12!

[Grumpybutfun]

I am highly, highly offended that men can't birth children. Highly offended. I think it's oppressive and offensive to 50% of the population.

 

Grumpy, whose standard are you using by declaring Paul's comments as offensive? Your own? If so, what makes you an expert on this matter? Do you believe your 30-60 years on this planet outweighs the wisdom of 4,000 years of Scripture which has withstood hundreds of civilizations and world views? (Most importantly you are placing your own opinion over the revealed Word of God.)

 

Typical response. I get a better idea of who you are now. I say this with all the patience in the world as you are obviously misinformed about my proneness to feel the guilt and shame of your words. I do not believe in the Holy Bible as a sacred text for my spiritual life. I am not a Christian...how much clearer can I be about this?

I did say it was IMHO (In My Humble Opinion and therefore not claiming expertise but opinion) so I am unsure why this is so hard for you to comprehend.

That is, IMHO, very dangerous to half of the world's population and highly

offensive to the other half.

That is the word of your God and the Jew's God, of course, not mine. I was simply saying that perhaps Paul's words could be construed in a few different ways for different reasons. My concern is how his words are construed to the detriment of women, not in the words themselves. I never said I was offended by Paul...I said abuse is offensive to (obviously a few) men (the other half) because it harms their loved ones....women. So sad you intentionally misunderstood so you could throw some of this stuff at me.....

Do you believe your 30-60 years on this planet outweighs the wisdom of 4,000

years of Scripture which has withstood hundreds of civilizations and world

views?

Yes! You got it.....For me, someone who does not believe in your Bible except as a historical text, it does, because my own experiences and lessons in life are more important than the life lessons and stories of people I have never met nor have any cultural similarties with. I do not claim nor have I ever claimed to be a Christian, but since it has been said here that we can share views openly regardless of relgious or spiritual background, I shared mine. I have a few spiritual threads here and Christians/Buddhists/Athiests share their words and views with respect and I read them with interest.

[M30USA]

There it is.

 

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood...

[Grumpybutfun]

I'll trust your expertise on the Old English definition.

 

What is your take on the similarities or differences between PL's account of the fall of man and that of Bible? I noticed PL seemed to almost sympathize with Satans perspective. But that just might be because he was the protagonist.

 

Milton was blind by the time he wrote Paradise Lost/Paradise Regained so he had dreams where he saw Satan's role as a Narrator (perhaps the anti-hero) as a way for humans to see how easy it is to fall from the grace of God. He never intended for Satan to become a Protagonist, but you are right, he was perceived as one by academics and more liberal believers.

The Bible's account is the real account and is used as an outline for the Milton account. milton's account is secular because it doesn't tie in with the rest of Satan's existence after the Fall. I also find Eve and Adam to be less sympathetic in the Milton account. However, the story is a beautiful one of temptation, knowledge and redemption.

You are correct, Paradise Regained was a much shorter poem. In this one, Jesus reinforces the idea of spiritual hunger in the desert for 40 D and 40 N. Many find this one to be a better poem also.

[Grumpybutfun]

There it is.

 

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood...

 

Exactly. Well, I have had a thousand roads, but I get your point and you are correct. I took the road less traveled, but I am engaged in a spiritual journey nonetheless.

Grumps

[M30USA]

Grumpy, what did you think of The Pilgrims Progress by Paul Bunyon? I know CS Lewis said its the single most important piece of literature aside from the Bible. I truthfully found it more educating than artistic. But it definitely stands in its own genre, IMO.

 

I don't really have the time for heavyweight reading like this anymore but there was a few years in the late 90s when I tried to read many Christian historical classics as I could.

Edited March 25, 2013 by M30USA

[TheFinalWord]

Grumpy, what did you think of The Pilgrims Progress by Paul Bunyon? I know CS Lewis said its the single most important piece of literature aside from the Bible. I truthfully found it more educating than artistic. But it definitely stands in its own genre, IMO.

 

I don't really have the time for heavyweight reading like this anymore but there was a few years in the late 90s when I tried to read many Christian historical classics as I could.

 

I really enjoyed it. I have the full edition with the additional letters Bunyan wrote.

 

Christian behaviour really helped me when I first got saved. A lost work, good for all Christians to study.

 

http://www.chapellibrary.org/johnbunyan/text/bun-christbehav.pdf