Is he fishing, and should I directly answer him?

[Emilia]

I think Treasa, Jane and ES are spot on, especially Jane.

 

She asked the question why you think any of this is your fault Star and I think the answer is that you want to think you had some control over his behaviour. You didn't. The truth is that you allowed false intimacy develop with someone who was after something far less serious than you.

 

I'm guessing the bartender chick isn't only 'hot' (your words) but younger too. He is probably thinking he wants a relationship or that he is a 'relationship guy' but I'm guessing he just really wants to play around for a while and isn't after anything serious. He dipped his toes in 'serious' with you but settled for the bartender chick and maybe a fling instead.

 

That's all there is to it. There is no great guy, no amazing personality, nothing you did wrong. He just doesn't want serious and you got carried away during those 2 dates, you didn't see him as the little boy that he really is.

[Archgirl]

Unfortunately, guys were the craziest about me when during the first couple of months dating I was actually pining after someone else. So wasn't taking them that seriously, was naturally distant. It almost makes me resent guys that they are so into that.

 

I am probably even more emotional that star.

 

It's like I need to dial my emotions back 5 notches to have a shot

 

I don't think this is true exactly. But I know I have learnt to dial back any expectations and take the men I date as they are. Sort of just chill out and let things happen naturally without rushing to some foregone conclusion of what I think I want/thinking way too far ahead about where stuff is going way too early. And most of all have fun.

 

So I'm not sure it's aloof women who have more success with guys, but I can tell in my circle of friends I'm more successful and the most relaxed/non-neurotic. And the only one who doesnt have the slightest concern for what they think of me. I can simply take or leave it. If they do not like me as I am I do not like them.

 

But I had to learn this and it's borne of inner strength and self acceptance not lack of emotion or detachedness.

 

And it really does seem to work for me. I enjoy dating and the guys I see.

And they clearly appreciate me especially/see me as something rare for it.

 

Maybe that's something to consider Star. Like its only about failure/success if you've already got a clear expected outcome in your mind from the word go.

And that if you want to be around people that think you are special and amazing you have to think that for yourself first. Not use your reflection in others eyes as your self image.

 

Anyway I'm really sorry about your pain and admire all the generous honesty of so many posters on this thread. It's just beautiful

Edited March 27, 2013 by Archgirl

[Star Gazer]

I think Treasa, Jane and ES are spot on, especially Jane.

 

She asked the question why you think any of this is your fault Star and I think the answer is that you want to think you had some control over his behaviour. You didn't. The truth is that you allowed false intimacy develop with someone who was after something far less serious than you.

 

I'm guessing the bartender chick isn't only 'hot' (your words) but younger too. He is probably thinking he wants a relationship or that he is a 'relationship guy' but I'm guessing he just really wants to play around for a while and isn't after anything serious. He dipped his toes in 'serious' with you but settled for the bartender chick and maybe a fling instead.

 

That's all there is to it. There is no great guy, no amazing personality, nothing you did wrong. He just doesn't want serious and you got carried away during those 2 dates, you didn't see him as the little boy that he really is.

 

He is 35, she is 36.

[Emilia]

He is 35, she is 36.

 

I knew I was making one assumption too many

 

the rest of the post still stands

[iKING]

I knew I was making one assumption too many

 

the rest of the post still stands

 

Swing and miss!

 

The rest of her points are pretty valid SG, as much as I hate to say it.

[Star Gazer]

Is it possible that being "too open to quick" at the beginning is what triggered your anxiety and your feelings for this guy? I'm not saying it was wrong to do so. I'm just saying, if I open up to someone really early on, I usually end up feeling vulnerable. And when I feel vulnerable, I get more focused on trying to secure the other person's approval (where fear of judgement kicks in and I try to figure out what I can do to get their approval, ie, focus on their perception of me). And, I probably confuse the vulnerability/anxiety for "feelings" on my part.

 

I might still open up early, but I try to recognize that pattern so that I don't respond to it the same way.

 

Hmm. Yes, that's possible that HIM opening up so soon made me feel anxiety because what he shared made me feel connected too fast. I didn't share the same though.

 

What would have ended up happening if this thing had lasted is that you would have ended up in a relationship where you walk on eggshells, all the time, in hopes he doesn't scare off.

 

Typing that last sentence I realize: you actually had the gut instinct Star. You were worried he would scare off. Somewhere, somehow, you identified that this guy was the kind of guy who scares easy. What made you feel/realize this? (Think actions, words, etc.)

 

My anxiety seemed to be triggered by the fear of loss, but I can't think of anything that made me feel/sense that impending loss... Other than when he shared about the last girl, and how he thought she wasn't into him and so he quickly moved on. It seemed like he didn't really even give her a chance to show that she was interested in terms of length of time, although I did understand why he felt the way he did (she flaked on him to hang out with guy friends). I remember actually asking him if he tried to talk to her about his feelings before he just bailed because he seemed so quick to dismiss (after developing that quickly too). I have a history of men turning on a silent dime with me, so that made me nervous. He said he did talk to her about it and when he didn't see her stepping up, he walked.

[Star Gazer]

I knew I was making one assumption too many

 

the rest of the post still stands

 

I actually thought the same thing at first, because his two long term ex is 6 years younger than him, and he kinda acts like he's 21.

[Star Gazer]

So I'm not sure it's aloof women who have more success with guys, but I can tell in my circle of friends I'm more successful and the most relaxed/non-neurotic. And the only one who doesnt have the slightest concern for what they think of me. I can simply take or leave it. If they do not like me as I am I do not like them.

 

I really do operate the same way, once I know they don't like me. I completely shut down/off. But I have the anxiety up until I figure that out.

 

Maybe that's something to consider Star. Like its only about failure/success if you've already got a clear expected outcome in your mind from the word go.

And that if you want to be around people that think you are special and amazing you have to think that for yourself first. Not use your reflection in others eyes as your self image.

 

I really cannot stress enough that I don't do this. I really, really don't. I truly, truly, think I'm amazing, a catch, the bees knees, that any guy would be lucky to have me. I believe this objectively and deep in my core. There is not one ounce of me that links my self-image and self-worth to what others (men specifically) think of me.

 

I just want love in my life. I really, really want it.

[Archgirl]

I really do operate the same way, once I know they don't like me. I completely shut down/off. But I have the anxiety up until I figure that out.

 

 

 

I really cannot stress enough that I don't do this. I really, really don't. I truly, truly, think I'm amazing, a catch, the bees knees, that any guy would be lucky to have me. I believe this objectively and deep in my core. There is not one ounce of me that links my self-image and self-worth to what others (men specifically) think of me.

 

I just want love in my life. I really, really want it.

 

I think that's what I was trying to get at a bit more gently- that last line on your post. That's sort of probably the problem. The expectations and thinking to far ahead. That's way too much pressure on yourself or anyone else. And I bet it doesn't feel very fun.

 

Love is great. And I believe in soul mates. But I can't make things happen. And if it never does at least I will have had a damn good time anyway.

 

And I think wanting it externally so badly probably means you might be trying to fill a unhealed wound inside with someone else's love.

 

Unconditional love I think is probably better sourced initially from within, then you don't attract the guys who also have holes in their centre.

 

And I'm really glad to hear how much self worth you have. I think women don't say it enough publicly.

 

I hope this helps, it's just things I had to learn after a crappy background/upbringing an how this affected my relationships.

Xx

Edited March 27, 2013 by Archgirl

[Imajerk17]

Well SG, back on the first page of this thread, 5 days ago, I advised you to wait a few dates before saying anything, not so much because it would turn him off (if he was the right guy it would not), but instead because you would have a much better understanding of what the two of you really had. No matter how strong the chemistry is early on, it can fade really quickly, especially if the other person suddenly feels sparks with someone else.

 

I'd say the chemistry coming and going really fast is even more likely when there was so much sharing going on during the first date.

 

I can't think of anything you could have done that would have made things turn out differently. You mention that he is semi-blue-collar, which might be why he chose the bartender over you and what he might have meant when he said she was "easier" to date.

 

As far as the whole "oversharing" thing on the first date, I dunno. On the one hand I've seen that if all you talk about on the date is the usual first-date topics they tell you to talk about in Dating 101, usually you'll have a "nice" time but there won't be a second date. You bond with someone over something more substantial--even if it is shared pain--and I am sure that there was something about this guy's story that resonated with you, SG. On the other hand, speaking from a more hypothetical point of view, this tendency for women to bond with a guy when he shares his pain in a certain way is often what gets women into trouble. These women are drawn into relationships with guys with bad boundaries.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Imajerk17

[Divasu]

Just a little more post-mortem to add....

 

Maybe under different circumstances, this event would not have phased you. I think the events leading up to it, 'Solider Boy', the rebound guy, and now this guy is just too much.

 

I think back to the last couple of guys you mentioned and I keep thinking, here is a vulnerable woman. Strong on the outside, delicate on the inside.

 

It's very easy to get swept up in the fantasy of someone who you don't really know, at all. Sure, he looks good on paper, he even says and does things that make you think "hmmm, I like this guy".

 

I was single for a couple years after a six year relationship ended and I kept each date, to one date and that's it. Then I met someone (when I wasn't even looking) who for whatever reason, I felt connected to (even though we NEVER had deep meaningful conversations at all). When that didn't work out, I was devastated.

 

The loss of hope, is a terrible feeling to have. I can't imagine experiencing it back-to-back in such a short duration. I wouldn't be able to handle it. Take your time and be careful with your heart.

 

It's the most important love of all.

[Star Gazer]

Star,

 

You shared a lot about your how you were raised and your family dynamics and we all know about your dating life in your 30s.

 

Do you mind filling in the gap of your 20s?

 

Were you like most typical men / women in their early 20s and just looking for / having "fun"? You know... Drinking, partying, dating idiots, "bad" boys / women phase, loved the drama, self-absorb, idiot good time "friends", selfish, focused more on school / career than worrying about dating / relationships?

 

While "sowing your wild oats", did you have any meaningful LTRs? If so, what was that like and tell us a little about the guy / relationship. Why didn't it work out? Bad Timing? Bad Luck? Bad BF Picker? "The Scene" / Lifestyle got in the way? Etc?

 

Around what age did you finally grow out of this and decide you wanted something "more"?

 

When you wanted "more", did you have any meaningful LTRs? If so, what was that like and tell us a little about the guy / relationship. Why didn't it work out? Bad Timing? Bad Luck? Feelings Changed? Grew Apart? Wanted Different Things? Bad BF Picker? Etc?

 

Did you have your "anxiety thingy" when you were "sowing your wild oats" or when you wanted "more" in your 20s?

 

I've never "sowed my oats" or been a party girl who just wanted to have fun. Yes, I partied and drank and whatnot, but while in a relationship or dating. Sowing oats and just having fun has never interested me. I had a LTR through college and law school, and a couple shorter (6 mos to a year) relationships after that in my 20's. I'm a relationship oriented person.

 

My anxiety has exited pretty much since I started dating at 15-16 years old.

[Star Gazer]

Just a little more post-mortem to add....

 

Maybe under different circumstances, this event would not have phased you. I think the events leading up to it, 'Solider Boy', the rebound guy, and now this guy is just too much.

 

I think back to the last couple of guys you mentioned and I keep thinking, here is a vulnerable woman. Strong on the outside, delicate on the inside.

 

It's very easy to get swept up in the fantasy of someone who you don't really know, at all. Sure, he looks good on paper, he even says and does things that make you think "hmmm, I like this guy".

 

I was single for a couple years after a six year relationship ended and I kept each date, to one date and that's it. Then I met someone (when I wasn't even looking) who for whatever reason, I felt connected to (even though we NEVER had deep meaningful conversations at all). When that didn't work out, I was devastated.

 

The loss of hope, is a terrible feeling to have. I can't imagine experiencing it back-to-back in such a short duration. I wouldn't be able to handle it. Take your time and be careful with your heart.

 

It's the most important love of all.

 

Yeah, you're totally right.

[Star Gazer]

Random thing I thought about and realized today:

 

He used to be a ski instructor at a particular resort in the Tahoe area. His ex of 6 years lives and works at said resort. There are at least 10 other resorts that are just as big as the resort he worked at/she lives at. Prior to this winter, he was skiing on average of 100 days a year, for the past like 10 years. This winter, he didn't go up a single time. He's not injured, his work schedule doesn't prevent him from going on the weekends.

 

I found that really strange.

[tuxedo cat]

Random thing I thought about and realized today:

 

He used to be a ski instructor at a particular resort in the Tahoe area. His ex of 6 years lives and works at said resort. There are at least 10 other resorts that are just as big as the resort he worked at/she lives at. Prior to this winter, he was skiing on average of 100 days a year, for the past like 10 years. This winter, he didn't go up a single time. He's not injured, his work schedule doesn't prevent him from going on the weekends.

 

I found that really strange.

 

Sounds like he's not over his ex. Skiing reminds him of her. I don't think that in itself is so strange unless he downplayed how much he is still attached to her.

 

But the fact that he stayed with a woman for two years after she found out he was cheating pretty much tells you everything you need to know. My ex had a similar relationship in his past and he was also unable to emotionally give to someone who fully reciprocated his feelings.

[Star Gazer]

Okay...

 

For you, is this a red flag that you believe you ignored?

 

If so, are you going to refine your Date / BF selector?

 

He had told me about his skiing pattern and how it changed, but he didn't tell me where she lives or works. FB told me that just a day or two ago. (Yes, I clicked on her, I was curious.)

[tbf]

Sounds like he's not over his ex. Skiing reminds him of her. I don't think that in itself is so strange unless he downplayed how much he is still attached to her.

 

But the fact that he stayed with a woman for two years after she found out he was cheating pretty much tells you everything you need to know. My ex had a similar relationship in his past and he was also unable to emotionally give to someone who fully reciprocated his feelings.

Which circles back to what I mentioned at the beginning of this thread where different people react different ways to cheating.

 

I too agree that he's not fully over his ex. While he maybe over her for wanting a return to a relationship state or any positive emotions of love, cheating can hit not only the ego but the ability to trust again. Two years of anxiety with a cheater, wondering if they're going to cheat again, particularly if you were heavily invested in the first place, can and will emotionally scar anyone.

[Star Gazer]

Sounds like he's not over his ex. Skiing reminds him of her. I don't think that in itself is so strange unless he downplayed how much he is still attached to her.

 

He did downplay it. He said he basically had no feelings for her for the entire two years after she cheated, because he couldn't let her back in.

 

BUT yesterday, I made some comment like "I can't and won't try to change your mind, you should want me all on your own without any convincing on my part, so..." and he responded with something like, "Yeah I know, just ask my ex, I tried that with her for a long time, and it didn't work."

 

But the fact that he stayed with a woman for two years after she found out he was cheating pretty much tells you everything you need to know. My ex had a similar relationship in his past and he was also unable to emotionally give to someone who fully reciprocated his feelings.

 

Tells me everything I need to know...? What am I missing?

[iKING]

He did downplay it. He said he basically had no feelings for her for the entire two years after she cheated, because he couldn't let her back in.

 

BUT yesterday, I made some comment like "I can't and won't try to change your mind, you should want me all on your own without any convincing on my part, so..." and he responded with something like, "Yeah I know, just ask my ex, I tried that with her for a long time, and it didn't work."

 

 

 

Tells me everything I need to know...? What am I missing?

 

He's not over his ex.

 

Perhaps he's over the girl herself (as-in, no longer has feelings for her), but he's not over the relationship itself.

 

Emotional scarring takes a good deal of effort to heal efficiently, and until he's able to do so he may not be ready for a relationship.

 

How much of that contributed to the way things went? Some, but not all of course. I would bet however, that it had a role in his general perspective.

[tuxedo cat]

He did downplay it. He said he basically had no feelings for her for the entire two years after she cheated, because he couldn't let her back in.

 

BUT yesterday, I made some comment like "I can't and won't try to change your mind, you should want me all on your own without any convincing on my part, so..." and he responded with something like, "Yeah I know, just ask my ex, I tried that with her for a long time, and it didn't work."

 

 

 

Tells me everything I need to know...? What am I missing?

 

I think what you're missing is that he talked a big game because he wanted to be like that after the demise of his last relationship, because he knew he had doormat tendencies, but he wasn't able to match his words with actions.

 

In the past when a guy would present me with a sob story about an ex mistreating him and how much he tried to make the relationship work after the abuse/cheating started, I took it at face value: he must be a really nice guy, he will probably treat me well.

 

What I learned through hard experience is that a lot of doormat types expect to be mistreated and will freak out if someone treats them with respect and love. They seem to veer between martyr and persecutor based on how much people value them, unable find a middle ground and be an actual partner.

 

So if I had to take a guess your mistake was probably that you treated him well and showed interest.

 

I do believe people can outgrow the martyr role but it takes a lot of reflection and work and it doesn't sound like this guy has had enough time to reflect. If he's in denial about being over his ex he may never take that time.

 

That, and he's not over his ex and you would have likely turned into a rebound had he not ended things sooner.

 

(Just a side note in case this is a stumbling point for you: I don't think the fact that he was with her for four years before the cheating started means much. You have no idea what her personality was like. Maybe she intimidated him in some way and he felt he always had to win her over. This was true with one of my exes. He told me they had a really happy relationship until the cheating started but as I pried a little deeper later in our relationship he confessed that she was aloof from the start and never seemed as invested as he was.)

[tbf]

Back we go to the LS Nice Guy vibe! Doormat/martyr. Untrusting and emotionally unavailable. Next step, PUA persecutor.

[Imajerk17]

I think there are a lot of people in the dating world who have issues and they project those issues onto the next person. I think this is especially true with people in the online dating world.

 

Consider this: You're (general sense of the word "you") are lonely. Instead of having to build a relationship with someone from your social circle (takes time), or meet someone via cold-approach (most people just don't have the stones for it), you can go online and go shopping for a partner. That it is so much easier to meet someone new might mean you might be less likely to do what you really need to do, which is to remain single.

 

Anyway, possible reasons why this guy came on strong and bailed:

 

--He suffers from "flavor of the month"--he can't get enough of someone until he can get enough of someone.

--He wanted to prove to himself that "he's still got it"

--He was really lonely and wanted to make a connection with an attractive someone (aka you), then after he made a connection he freaked out and realized he wasn't ready to make the intense commitment he said he was ready to make.

[curlygirl40]

(note, I wrote this in Word and hopefully fixed all the bugs after cutting and pasting. Fingers crossed)

 

 

Wow I’m offline for one night and your thread completely blows up! And I admit I read through some but not all so hopefully this makes some sort of sense. Although I do babble….

 

First, I’m sorry!! I know you’re strong and you will (and probably already have) pick yourself up and dust off and give the next great guy a great opportunity to knock your socks off. So I’m bummed for you but I know you’re going to be more than fine. The right guy for you will recognize a good thing when he sees it and not be so quick to let it go.

 

In reading these responses and your answers and your story, I have to say that even though the situation with him picking you up at the airport wasn’t ideal, I think it was good of him to do it. A man of his word.

 

I have to give the guy some credit for being honest with you. Most guys (and girls too! Don’t bash) would just try some form of the fadeaway. I have said it before and I’ll say it again. Most of the time guys would rather chew their arms out of a bear trap and flee than to be THIS honest about the situation. He could have told you all sorts of excuses for why he couldn’t pick you up and then just tried to fadaway. It’s been 2 dates, people do that ALL THE TIME. So as much as it hurts, it’s refreshing in a way. At least you know. It’s the not knowing when someone just drops off that is harder to deal with IME.

 

With this other girl, my gut is telling me that he has had a little bit of a crush on her for a while now, and he thinks he might actually have a chance with her so he wants to take it. Friday night might have been the first time (too many drinks for one or both of them??) that he saw there was potential there for him and he’s going for it. And he doesn’t want to string you along in the process.

 

Lastly as far as him ‘clamming up’. Ugh. This is always my issue in the early stages of dating. I struggle with this. I don’t think in the beginning that a lot of people even know what they want. It’s tough to not want to know ‘where are we, what are we doing, what are you looking for, are you dating other people…..?’ on and on, but yet I think when the subject is brought up prematurely that it wrecks the natural order of things, so to speak.

 

It’s easier/better to get to know someone (especially people online who you didn’t know IRL) slowly and then decide what you want out of it. When you do this, there is no pressure on either party. It’s just getting to know each other. When you have the conversation too early about exclusivity, then sometimes people feel like there is an expectation of them and instead of letting their guard down and getting to know you as a friend and letting the ‘relationship’ develop slowly and naturally, they are too busy thinking ‘don’t expect too much from me, I don’t know what I have to give you right now, I’m not sure if I like you enough for this to be a long term thing, I need to get to know you better….’ On and on. So when you don’t have those conversations early, it lets both people just relax and be themselves and get to know each other without feeling like the other person is expecting somethingfrom them.

 

And I think in the beginning a little mystery is good. When someone knows they ‘have’ you and have your full attention, they sometimes aren’t really sure if they want you anymore. There are some heart palpitations in not knowing what someone else is doing, a little bit of worry when you’re afraid you might lose someone. This creates attachment.

 

If a man is a hunter and he hunts a deer he will be proud when he catches it, hang the head up on the wall even as a trophy. Put that same deer on his doorstep without the hunt, he doesn't have the same feelings. I know, bad analogy but you get my meaning.

 

It sometimes makes them want you more,because you haven’t put all of your cards on the table.

 

I’m not talking exactly about you or thinking that you ‘ruined things’ with this one. But I’m just throwing that out there because I struggle with this ALL THE TIME. I’m doing it right now with a guy I’m dating.

 

I want to have that conversation but I’m afraid I will chase him away. Not because he doesn’t want a relationship with me eventually, just because it’s too early and if he’s forced to make a decision then he might run vs. having to make that decision. It’s too early for him to know how he feels about me or maybe even know what he wants out of any relationship. So if I ask, he doesn’t even know so how is he going to tell me?

 

So I’m trying to play the ‘cool chick’ but it’s so hard for me. Eventually I will say something if he hasn’t. But for now, I’m venting to my girlfriends and to people on LS and I’m just playing it cool and knowing that I’m risking being hurt but we always have that risk.

 

I have a gf who is in a very serious 8 month relationship and she has no guarantees that next week this guy isn’t going to break up with her any more than I have any guarantees that this guy I’m dating is going to want to see me again after tonight. It's the risk we take. All of us. Guys and girls.

 

As women we want that guarantee that a guy will stick around but we won’t get it. And by insisting that we have those conversations early because we’re afraid to get hurt or we want to protect our hearts, this could drive a guy away because then all of a sudden maybe he feels responsible for your happiness. Or maybe he feels his freedom slipping away. Or whatever.

 

And remember the last guy you dated who basically lied to you about what he was doing regarding dating? So it’s like why bother having that convo? Sometimes people lie about their intentions,sometimes people don’t really know what they want out of it so early, so why bother asking when you can’t even really trust the answer?

 

Now having said ALL of that, this guy did this to himself. The point of the original thread was him fishing. He WAS absolutely fishing, then he got his answer and then it maybe spooked him. Not your fault. He asked for it and you were just being honest. Don’t apologize for being honest.

 

Everything I wrote above about having that convo too early wasn’t directed at telling you that I think you did something wrong, it was just babble about something that I have realized by dealing with the guy I’m dating right now and I thought it could help. I’m scared to death that I’m going to get hurt. But I’m trying something new. Just trying to be the cool chick.

 

Keep your head up Star. The right guy for you will not be so quick to run. (That’s what I keep telling myself too! Lol) Hugs!

[tbf]

I want to interrupt the ladies and their dissection of the guy, his ex, his feelings, his issues, etc. and ask you a few questions.

 

Is there anything that Star should have done different?

 

Does her Date / BF selector need refining?

 

Did she miss any red flags / ignore them?

 

Should she have pulled the ejection cord on the first date, second date, etc?

 

What or is there a take away from this 2 date experience?

Correct me if I'm wrong Star but firstly, you want to fully understand the dynamics before concluding and potentially rectifying anything.

 

In many ways, this type of discussion allows you the ability to emotionally vent within a relatively emotionally safe environment.

 

liveandlearned is solutions focused, disregarding the emotional unwinding process.

[Star Gazer]

Correct me if I'm wrong Star but firstly, you want to fully understand the dynamics before concluding and potentially rectifying anything.

 

In many ways, this type of discussion allows you the ability to emotionally vent within a relatively emotionally safe environment.

 

liveandlearned is solutions focused, disregarding the emotional unwinding process.

 

You are absolutely correct. I'm not seeking a solution right now; I'm unwinding and seeking to understand what (likely) happened, with people who "know" my history and this situation literally from start to finish.