Education & Training for a "successful" D-day?

[AnotherRound]

If and when a Dday comes that is not pre planned by a WS, the natural reaction is to panic, and or feel a great deal of fear, just as anyone usuallu responds to any crisis.

 

That said, it takes time for the absolute reality to set in for both BS and WS during reconciliation. The feelings of love during hysterical bonding aren't whats inauthentic, it s primal, but does come from a real need from both parties to heal some of the immediate damage. I think most MM who intend on leaving and later go on to actually do it, know this well before Dday even happens. Those are likely the ones that arent going to be doing a lot of begging or crying.

 

I was reading an article just yesterday actually that described the hysterical bonding as not authentic, in that it was a way for the BS to mark their territory and to kind of put their scent (if you will) over the OP. To reclaim their WS. That doesn't sound like authentic love to me - but kind of like animalistic competition and claiming of something that they want to continue to possess.

 

I was just saying that I think if the WS can avoid that instant panic feeling regarding change - and the big step that is separation/divorce - then they would probably make more sound decisions, and a lot more attempted reconciliations would work bc the WS would make that decision in a time of calm resolve, not hysteria.

[ComingInHot]

LFH,

You are in a one of a kind A I think. You are or seem to be really good at and content with and Happy as the OW.

Honestly that in itself is a big difference in how this topic affects you and the MM. You are not looking to gain a different position or role or out to replace his W so I guess you wouldn't ever need to inform & guide him or whatever.

 

There are only two things I don't agree w/but I think we (you & I) are okay to disagree here on Ls about it.

-engaging in A w/out the M being open

-swapping/sharing bodily fluids w/a third party knowingly or not

 

 

Aside from that, good post*

[eleanorrigby]

I was reading an article just yesterday actually that described the hysterical bonding as not authentic, in that it was a way for the BS to mark their territory and to kind of put their scent (if you will) over the OP. To reclaim their WS. That doesn't sound like authentic love to me - but kind of like animalistic competition and claiming of something that they want to continue to possess.

 

I was just saying that I think if the WS can avoid that instant panic feeling regarding change - and the big step that is separation/divorce - then they would probably make more sound decisions, and a lot more attempted reconciliations would work bc the WS would make that decision in a time of calm resolve, not hysteria.

 

Well if that's the case, he was marking me as well because it was definitely mutual.

[AnotherRound]

AR wrote, " involved, and especially the BS as they wouldn't have to attempt reconciliation only to find out later that the affair was still going, and that the WS wasn't sincere in their hysterical outbursts - it seems it would save all a lot of confusion, heartache, and time."

 

Okay, this is Another thing that completely creeps me out... so WS "panics". Cries Forgive me, I'm sorry, please please, second chance. Screams horrible, ugly things about OW. In your scenario WS Doesn't mean it and calls/hooks back up w/OW but in even deeper secret becauuuuuuuuuse.... why??

 

Why would an AP go back into the A when MM/MW didn't Leave for them on D-day.

 

I mean w/all the "hysteical lying & bonding" w/the BS & bus rolling over the OW, who is willing to share that juice cup (confirming from hysterical bonding) that juices indeed are being shared??

 

 

I just think ewwww. Maybe that's why getting busted a second time the BS D's the cheating bas*hard.. ohOH maybe THAT'S why the OW goes back?! Because she knows or hopes the W will find it a second time and wahlah!

 

But that's for another thread... geez, I've been going off on my own little adventures today*

 

I was only speaking of those situations in which a WS is not honest, and is panicking, and then goes underground. I wasn't talking about why the AP would continue, I have no idea about that as I have not been in that situation. And again, not saying that all WS are lying when they react this way - just saying that if they could react without the hysteria, a lot of stuff could be sifted through a lot easier and more honestly.

[ComingInHot]

AR, " I was reading an article just yesterday actually that described the hysterical bonding as not authentic, in that it was a way for the BS to mark their territory and to kind of put their scent (if you will) over the OP. To reclaim their WS. That doesn't sound like authentic love to me - but kind of like animalistic competition and claiming of something that they want to continue to possess."

 

I would LOVE to get my hands on That article and its authors. Cause that is in absolute conflict w/a-lot of BS's here (including me) where it was H's scent he wanted ALL Over Me. Crazy...

[MissBee]

I didn't see anything that suggested continuing in a secret affair, hence my total confusion!

 

Yepp...I was thinking of it in light of this comment by an OW, which sparked this thread which read: "These men have been lying to their wives for ages, hiding the EMR. What I can't get my head around is why the OW suddenly are insulted when they continue to lie on Dday. What's the difference from before? That they got caught? The more reason to lie even better to protect themselves and the EMR. If they wanted to come clean, they would have already."

 

That where I was basing my post on in terms of the continued lies on dday and the tone of the whole situation as one in which it is almost expected and a good OW would have known to not take this personal and the further lying to "protect self" and not coming clean.

 

It actually makes sense re my response to AR's post...which is exactly as the original poster said: "if they wanted to come clean, they would have already." A dday isn't usually a day where a WS is choosing to come clean, but a day when it all catches up to them and the rug is pulled from under their feet...hence the panic. I think an education in how to come clean before dday would be more fitting than an education on how to not panic when you get caught off guard. One seems healthier than the other.

[Silly_Girl]

begs the question why an Ow would want a lying man to even begin with, let alone train him how to prepare and train to finally be honest in ending his marriage and to avoid that hysterical bonding which is inauthentic and out of fear.....

 

yeah, right.

 

'Train'? I haven't seen any OW suggesting she gives lessons in what to do!

 

What I have seen is a lot of OW encourage the MM to address PROPERLY the issues and to focus and get counselling. The BS may choose to see that as manipulation purely because it comes from the OW, and I get that.

[AnotherRound]

I think if they could do all that there probably would be no A and no dday to contend with. The dday would be them calmly walking up to their spouse rationally and "informed" and saying what's what. But generally ddays catch people with their pants down...hence the panic. No handbook really seems to help with that surprise dday. Unless one really "practices" how to be unsurprised come dday...which seems unrealistic. It seems as though if a WS was so rational and informed, they would have, on their own, made a decision BEFORE dday forced them to react. Most usually are caught off guard and scattering like roaches when you turn the lights on....that is what makes the difference.

 

 

Inauthenticity doesn't start on dday...it just comes to light on dday. One was being inauthentic BEFORE the dday...hence there is even a "discovery day" to begin with. Which is why I said, it is a waste to educate one's self on how to react to a dday, but rather, one should spend that time educating one's self on being authentic, finding the gumption, and overcoming one's fears BEFORE then, so one can avoid the rigmarole of As and ddays and can of one's own choice (and not by a discovery brought up on you by someone else) choose what to do with one's life.

 

I don't think this is any different than BSs wishing that their WS had known about the "affair fog" prior to experiencing it so that they could have avoided it. If someone knows what to look for, what the common behaviors and reactions are, then they are informed and can make better decisions. So, having an MM who is educated that there is knowledge that there too is a "hysterical bonding fog" that often happens when a dday hits - they could avoid that by being aware that it is not an authentic reaction, but a very primal and biological reaction - and if they aren't wanting to stay married, this is probably best avoided so as not to hurt the BS even further. Bc once that fog clears, and the MM realizes that he still doesn't want to be there - then what? I can see what OP is saying here.

[Act Two]

'Train'? I haven't seen any OW suggesting she gives lessons in what to do!

 

What I have seen is a lot of OW encourage the MM to address PROPERLY the issues and to focus and get counselling. The BS may choose to see that as manipulation purely because it comes from the OW, and I get that.

 

Encouraging the WS to get counseling and figure themselves out WHILE remaining in an affair with him is like a bartender serving up drinks to an alcoholic and then offering to take him to AA.

 

The best way to help is to get the hell out of his until he has clarity. No counseling can fix someone while they are actively living an inauthentic life.

[ComingInHot]

Oay, I found My Post from the other thread,

" ... " I was saying that by understanding the dynamics of an EMR and of a Dday you can avoid being dishonest on Dday. You can tell the truth, stand by it, avoid throwing the OW under the bus and tell your spouse you love the OW."

 

Is this how it went for you? Is this how you are hoping it goes for you? Are you training or have trained the MM in the intricate dynamics of his A w/you?

 

If it has (D-day) already happened, then you are now With MM because he did in fact tell his W he loved you? Or are you and MM waiting for his W to make the final call of how your relationship w/MM will move forward?

 

I'm just curious because I think you may have a point if it is based on the successful outcome from your own experience.

 

I never considered an Ow would "educate/train" the MM in how to have a successful A then a successful D-day. I'm not sure what a successful D-day would look like and for whom it would be considered successful...

[Silly_Girl]

then why the need to "educate" anyone...

 

I'm totally lost here...what does any of this mean? is it that a married person should be told by their other person " do this,say this, this could happen" or does it mean something else?

 

If the MM is still having sex and has feelings for their spouse then a) it would be a possibility (but that's not applicable in the situation I was in); b) I think it's a good idea, if unsure about the future of the relationship, to avoid hysterical bonding. By its very nature, and even the terminology, it appears to not be authentic, for me. I had an abusive relationship and the sex could be mind-blowing, turns my stomach now! So if an MM is thinking about d-day I don't see anything wrong in him understanding what HB is for me and whether he would prefer to avoid it.

[AnotherRound]

Well if that's the case, he was marking me as well because it was definitely mutual.

 

Oh, it is mutual - a mutual animalistic marking of possession, apparently, very biological. And, in some cases it leads to authentic reconciliation (like yours!). But in some cases, once that urge wears off - then they are right back at square one - and I would think it would be extremely hurtful to go through that with a WS and then have the other shoe dropped that it wasn't what they feel once the fog clears, if that happens.

 

I have seen a lot of BSs state that they wish their WS had been educated and aware about the "affair fog" - insinuating that had they known about this phenomena that they may have been able to realize when they were in it. I think this is what OP is saying applies to the "hysterical bonding fog" too. Also, in my reading , it was discussing "sudden divorce syndrome" and it had a lot of the same qualities of that panicky desperate reaction of trying to maintain the status quo as much as possible. It was stating that men especially are geared towards this and that it is a very common reaction for them when their world is threatened with a huge change.

[eleanorrigby]

I don't think this is any different than BSs wishing that their WS had known about the "affair fog" prior to experiencing it so that they could have avoided it. If someone knows what to look for, what the common behaviors and reactions are, then they are informed and can make better decisions. So, having an MM who is educated that there is knowledge that there too is a "hysterical bonding fog" that often happens when a dday hits - they could avoid that by being aware that it is not an authentic reaction, but a very primal and biological reaction - and if they aren't wanting to stay married, this is probably best avoided so as not to hurt the BS even further. Bc once that fog clears, and the MM realizes that he still doesn't want to be there - then what? I can see what OP is saying here.

 

The only way to avoid the affair fog would be to have avoided the affair altogether. You mean I should have told my husband that if he ever engages in an affair, that there is this affair fog that he needs to watch out for?

[ComingInHot]

The poster thought I was not being nice I think by asking this question based off the comment written, so I simply thought I'd ask over here...

 

 

 

I

[Silly_Girl]

Well if that's the case, he was marking me as well because it was definitely mutual.

 

Absolutely it's mutual, the question is how meaningful it is in some instances.

[Spark1111]

Absolutely it's mutual, the question is how meaningful it is in some instances.

 

 

Sooo, whence makes love to the OW it is meaningful? But whence makes love to the spouse, it is not?

 

Is that truly your point?

[AnotherRound]

AR, " I was reading an article just yesterday actually that described the hysterical bonding as not authentic, in that it was a way for the BS to mark their territory and to kind of put their scent (if you will) over the OP. To reclaim their WS. That doesn't sound like authentic love to me - but kind of like animalistic competition and claiming of something that they want to continue to possess."

 

I would LOVE to get my hands on That article and its authors. Cause that is in absolute conflict w/a-lot of BS's here (including me) where it was H's scent he wanted ALL Over Me. Crazy...

 

Let me find it for you.

 

Okay, here is a link - I will find the article though, but this link was in my research too, and this is where I read that.

 

Surprise! You're in recovery. Now what? - Marriage Advocates

[HopingAgain]

I was reading an article just yesterday actually that described the hysterical bonding as not authentic, in that it was a way for the BS to mark their territory and to kind of put their scent (if you will) over the OP. To reclaim their WS. That doesn't sound like authentic love to me - but kind of like animalistic competition and claiming of something that they want to continue to possess.

 

I was just saying that I think if the WS can avoid that instant panic feeling regarding change - and the big step that is separation/divorce - then they would probably make more sound decisions, and a lot more attempted reconciliations would work bc the WS would make that decision in a time of calm resolve, not hysteria.

 

Sounds like an interesting article. I'd have to say from what I've read and personally experienced, the WH would be more likely to do the reclaiming and marking territory aspect. Most women who find out their husbands have cheated don't want to be touched by them with a 10 foot pole, at least initially. The men seem to go.tp great lengths to get hysterical bonding underway. I think more often than not its 2 people who still love eachother making an attempt to kickstart reconnecting.

 

I think its more difficult more WH not to panic because Dday is the first confrontation that makes them really, truly think about what they want, especially if they never had intentions on leaving. I think they dont even think about what will happen if they get caught, which leads to the panic.

[ComingInHot]

oh my hepher I am too tired to type fast enough to keep up w/everything.

 

This slllllooooooow tired turtle is going to bed*

 

Thanks Everyone who participated and still are!

 

Sleep well you speedy little hares.

[AnotherRound]

The only way to avoid the affair fog would be to have avoided the affair altogether. You mean I should have told my husband that if he ever engages in an affair, that there is this affair fog that he needs to watch out for?

 

No, not that you should have told him anything. But, had he known, prior to engaging in an affair that this is a believed common phenomena - would he not have questioned his engagement in it a bit more? I mean, it seems like some BSs believe that their WSs were under the spell of this fog, so it stands to reason, if they were aware that this is what supposedly happens to them - then they might think, "oh , this isn't love like I think it is, it is that fog I read about!".

[Spark1111]

Absolutely it's mutual, the question is how meaningful it is in some instances.

 

Should I therefor conclude that because he dropped her and begged me, that our sex was meaningful but there's was not?

 

is that your point?

[eleanorrigby]

Absolutely it's mutual, the question is how meaningful it is in some instances.

 

It was meaningful for me, I'm believe it was meaningful for my husband. So I guess for me that's good enough.

[AnotherRound]

hysterical bonding is , in my opinion, another one of those pop psychology terms that may have some validity, but when taken out of the context of an affair, you can see it may mean so much more than your definition makes it out to be...

 

when my husband leaves for a tasking or deployment, and when he comes back, we engage in hysterical bonding. Would you say this is because we are trying to put our "scent all over one another?"

 

I'll tell you why we do it ...we do it because there is a risk that we may lose each other ( deployment , heck life in general, can be dangerous, and i you know there is a rosk you may lose someone, it can make you really want to bond with them). It's a well documented occurrence and considered part of "the cycle of deployment"...

 

now bring that back to an affair situation...

 

as hard as it may be for some other men/women to understand and accept, many times the wayward spouse, does love their husband/wife. The betrayed spouse loves them. The realization of potential loss can really hit home and in many cases, this leads to hysterical bonding. ( or, to use the more colloquial term " great make up sex"...

 

this can go on for some time, but of course it won't really fix any problems that were there to start with...they have to be addressed separately...

 

same as every time my husband leaves and comes home...if we had any issues before he left, they will likely still be there when he gets back, and we deal with them ( after the "bonding' is over...which reminds me that i need to clean out our van before he gets back...our kids left a mess in the back again;):laugh: ....sorry, running joke)

 

I didn't say it at all - and I have no idea if it's "true" or not bc I haven't researched it. I was simply presenting what some theories on it are. You would have to ask them what they thought about you and your husband's need to "put your scent" on each other again after a long absence, lol.

[Furious]

I nagged incessantly for honesty, I was a crap OW and can't believe he didn't just dump me on that basis.

 

 

I don't nag for honesty, I don't participate in dishonesty, and I would be the one who dumps a liar rather than being surprised he hadn't dumped me because I nag for honesty.

 

I know I'd be a crap OW that's why I never became one.

[Spark1111]

No, not that you should have told him anything. But, had he known, prior to engaging in an affair that this is a believed common phenomena - would he not have questioned his engagement in it a bit more? I mean, it seems like some BSs believe that their WSs were under the spell of this fog, so it stands to reason, if they were aware that this is what supposedly happens to them - then they might think, "oh , this isn't love like I think it is, it is that fog I read about!".

 

do you think we cared if they were in a fog pre, during, or post affair following DDay?

 

MOST of us said, if you love her, go be happy,buh-bye.

 

e never told her he my carte Blanche permission to go be with his soul mate. It seemed to be the very last thing he wanted.

 

Now why do you think that was? Noone was more confused then I. I guess I though affairs were about love. I read loving texts between them.

 

But, given that choice, it was the last thing he wanted.Now why?