Education & Training for a "successful" D-day?

[MissBee]

I don't think this is any different than BSs wishing that their WS had known about the "affair fog" prior to experiencing it so that they could have avoided it. If someone knows what to look for, what the common behaviors and reactions are, then they are informed and can make better decisions. So, having an MM who is educated that there is knowledge that there too is a "hysterical bonding fog" that often happens when a dday hits - they could avoid that by being aware that it is not an authentic reaction, but a very primal and biological reaction - and if they aren't wanting to stay married, this is probably best avoided so as not to hurt the BS even further. Bc once that fog clears, and the MM realizes that he still doesn't want to be there - then what? I can see what OP is saying here.

 

I don't think anyone wishes MM would know or read up about affair fog. Affair fog doesn't randomly grab you in the streets lol, it only happens if you're in an affair. The affair comes first, then the fog. So I think what people prefer is for their spouse to learn to deal with their issues/communicate before getting into an A/so they wont get into an A and not that it's alright to be in the A, so long as you're educated and don't let the fog take hold.

 

I advocate for prevention being better than cure. Hysterical bonding comes only AFTER an affair, likewise affair fogs only comes, AFTER one is already in an affair. I advocate for the education that allows one to stay clear of situations where one has to read up on the cure. That's a better education IMO.

 

I'd prefer to teach my kids for example, about how to prevent STDs and pregnancies, than when they already are pregnant or have a disease, they go learn about what to expect now that it has already happened. I see reading up on ddays while in an A as the latter...already being in a bad situation and attempting to learn what to do now. I suppose it is useful to learn while in it...but more of waste than if one had learned prior.

 

I think it silly that while in an A, I'm going to be reading up on dday and hysterical bonding, to what end? It only seems relevant to be educated if you are going to use your education. I understand being in an A and reading stuff which helps you to stop being in an A and going one way or another and coming clean before a dday. But reading about a dday...while you continue to be in your A...so that you have the info in your back pocket for when you are caught seems extremely passive. One plans to do nothing with this but keep up the A and only when caught will one pull out one's bag of dday knowledge...seems crazy to me. As I said, it seems with all that, might as well learn how to be authentic and come clean before dday, that will cut all the bullshyt short for you and everyone else. If a MM is smart enough to learn about dday, why can't he be smart enough to learn how to come clean on his own without having a dday and be smart enough to educate himself on how to divorce or choose?

[Silly_Girl]

Sooo, whence makes love to the OW it is meaningful? But whence makes love to the spouse, it is not?

 

Is that truly your point?

 

No. I'm saying that if a couple who barely have sex, or have a lack of intimacy, or some deep-rooted problems start grinding 24/7 I would question the authenticity.

[AnotherRound]

Sorry, the articles I read were on a pay only academic site - but I found this link that talked about it too. I'm sure with some research, someone could find the theorist and where it comes from - but it is one way that some people are looking at it, as a way to reclaim each other and to cancel out the AP.

 

Support for Those Affected by Infidelity

Edited March 25, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redacted commercial web site name

[eleanorrigby]

No, not that you should have told him anything. But, had he known, prior to engaging in an affair that this is a believed common phenomena - would he not have questioned his engagement in it a bit more? I mean, it seems like some BSs believe that their WSs were under the spell of this fog, so it stands to reason, if they were aware that this is what supposedly happens to them - then they might think, "oh , this isn't love like I think it is, it is that fog I read about!".

 

Nothing I said or he told himself would have been able to disabuse him of the notion he was in love, because he was in love.

The fog to me is different... the fog was him thinking that he could get to know this woman he was attracted to without it turning into something. The fog was him taking each step that led him into the affair and every step that kept him there. The fog was him starting to demonize me the more he fell in love to make himself feel justified to be in an affair.

 

Stuff like that.

[Silly_Girl]

It was meaningful for me, I'm believe it was meaningful for my husband. So I guess for me that's good enough.

 

Of course

 

How do you feel about the assertion that sometimes it's merely a process and isn't meaningful?

[eleanorrigby]

Of course

 

How do you feel about the assertion that sometimes it's merely a process and isn't meaningful?

 

A process for what?

[Silly_Girl]

Ahhh sleep... I need to beat that sandman person. *sigh* I miss sleep.

 

Me too. It's 4am here

[Silly_Girl]

A process for what?

 

A reaction borne out of the circumstances as opposed to a deep love and wanting to be with that person. I know people who have had some great sex leading up to their divorce!

[AnotherRound]

Of course

 

How do you feel about the assertion that sometimes it's merely a process and isn't meaningful?

 

Yes, and ER and her husband have very successfully reconciled, so it was most likely authentic. I guess I was just thinking of those that it is a panic reaction and not authentic - and then after the dust settles, so to say, they are right back to being unhappy and wanting out.

 

I dunno - I'd have to do a lot more reading and research on this as I haven't had the experience on either side of this phenomena - nor have I had a dday where I was the OW - and the dday with my exH did not result in hysterical bonding. Like many have stated, I had absolutely NO desire to share bodily fluids with his OW, and that HB was not going to happen with MY body! lol He tried - but ew, no... lol.

[eleanorrigby]

A reaction borne out of the circumstances as opposed to a deep love and wanting to be with that person. I know people who have had some great sex leading up to their divorce!

 

So you are saying maybe he didn't love me and just got horny because of the excitement of the situation?

[Silly_Girl]

I don't nag for honesty, I don't participate in dishonesty, and I would be the one who dumps a liar rather than being surprised he hadn't dumped me because I nag for honesty.

 

 

And that's what happened so it appears we are similar in that aspect.

[Silly_Girl]

So you are saying maybe he didn't love me and just got horny because of the excitement of the situation?

 

No, I am saying I know that happens to some couples, feelings that are stirred up are not necessarily representative of the whole situation.

 

I wouldn't make a judgement as to your relationship.

[Furious]

And that's what happened so it appears we are similar in that aspect.

 

 

No, not similar at all, I never chose be an OW, though I had that opportunity many times in life. I just don't talk about honesty and authenticity, I live it.

[Silly_Girl]

You are projecting what your xmm's marriage was onto Spark. Her marriage was nothing like the dysfunctional mess your xmm's was.

 

No. I haven't sought to pass judgement on Spark's relationship at all. The discussions have been very generic actually.

 

In fact, some of the experiences Spark had were far and beyond more dysfunctional than anything I was party to, but that just isn't relevant.

 

And the HB didn't apply in my case anyway, so neither was I referring to my own situation.

[MissBee]

A reaction borne out of the circumstances as opposed to a deep love and wanting to be with that person. I know people who have had some great sex leading up to their divorce!

 

I think the good thing is that there is proof in the pudding, so to speak.

 

With hysterical bonding, affair fog, etc. one can see the evidence over time of whether or not it was authentic.

 

The link AR provided about hysterical bonding talks about it not being a predictor of successful reconciliation, although it can be the beginning of redeveloping intimacy and communication. Hysterical bonding doesn't last forever, so if one was just panicked but it wasn't based on an ability to successfully work things out...it will become apparent later on. Likewise, re affair fog, I think a WS can genuinely decide for themselves post-A if what they felt/thought were authentic and stands true to them or not, and it isn't a case where they can be "brain washed" forever into minimizing the A.

 

One can't be brainwashed forever because of hysterical bonding. It can lead to authentic reconciliation or simply be hysterical with nothing to back it up...but either way, with time one should be able to tell the difference.

[waterwoman]

H must have been well trained then. I found suspicious texts and confronted him on sunday morning, he texted OW to tell her it was over, had about 12 hours of panic and dither trying to decide how much to tell me, then came back home from work on Monday morning, told me everythng and has been fixing the mess since that day.

 

FWIW I don't think he 'threw her under a bus' - he told me that he loved her, but that he also loved me a great deal more. When I asked whether he was intending to leave to be with her he said no. He wanted to stay with me.

 

HB? Don't know. We had sex a lot once he had persuaded me to let him see me naked - I got dressed and undressed in the bathroom for the first few days because I couldn't bear him to look at me at first. The hurt was so deep.

 

But everyone is where they need to be 9 months down the line. So I guess it was as successful as any d-day can be.

 

I quite agree that honesty, openness and authenticity is ideal. But IMO that needed to be there all the way through - from the moment that MP decided to get too close to OP. Not quite sure why it becomes so much more important only on d-day.

[Decorative]

No. I'm saying that if a couple who barely have sex, or have a lack of intimacy, or some deep-rooted problems start grinding 24/7 I would question the authenticity.

 

Except the only place that is true is in the affair partner's head.

 

Remember- the supposed giant gaping lack of intimacy in the marriage? Is not normally true.

 

Remember- liars lie. And people in affairs lie. The affair partner is not exempt from the lying about the state of the marriage.

[Silly_Girl]

Except the only place that is true is in the affair partner's head.

 

Remember- the supposed giant gaping lack of intimacy in the marriage? Is not normally true.

 

Remember- liars lie. And people in affairs lie. The affair partner is not exempt from the lying about the state of the marriage.

 

Sometimes, though, it IS true. And sometimes BS here also acknowledge there were such problems.

[William]

Moderation directs members to post to the topic started, which is education and training for a successful D-day, and refrain from cross-talk with other posters and resurrecting disagreements or other posting dynamics from other threads in this thread. This thread is about the topic, not other posters nor other threads on this web site. Thanks.

[Spark1111]

I think the good thing is that there is proof in the pudding, so to speak.

 

With hysterical bonding, affair fog, etc. one can see the evidence over time of whether or not it was authentic.

 

The link AR provided about hysterical bonding talks about it not being a predictor of successful reconciliation, although it can be the beginning of redeveloping intimacy and communication. Hysterical bonding doesn't last forever, so if one was just panicked but it wasn't based on an ability to successfully work things out...it will become apparent later on. Likewise, re affair fog, I think a WS can genuinely decide for themselves post-A if what they felt/thought were authentic and stands true to them or not, and it isn't a case where they can be "brain washed" forever into minimizing the A.

 

One can't be brainwashed forever because of hysterical bonding. It can lead to authentic reconciliation or simply be hysterical with nothing to back it up...but either way, with time one should be able to tell the difference.

 

So true, and it is only in retrospect with many other changes taking place, can reconciliation be considered successful.

 

However, desiring each other physically and passionately after dday can be a pretty good indicator of the underlying health of a relationship, don'tcha think?

 

In fact, I was deeply hurt that he had made love to me twice a week during his affair, assuming it was an indicator of health in the relationship even though he was moody and emotionally distant.

 

I spoke often of it in counseling and tortured myself wondering what was up with him? I and our chidren chalked it up to job stress.

 

After I decided to give reconiliation a chance I asked him how he could do that to me? Was his continued sexual interest a ruse to throw me off the path?

 

And he replied, no, I ALWAYS wanted you.

 

Go figure.

[Spark1111]

i think you can try to educate yourself as much as possible to willingly disclose to the BS, but you will never be able to predict the reactions of the BS....and depending on the reaction, you will not be able to predict the counter reaction of the WS.

 

Sorry, the articles I read were on a pay only academic site - but I found this link that talked about it too. I'm sure with some research, someone could find the theorist and where it comes from - but it is one way that some people are looking at it, as a way to reclaim each other and to cancel out the AP.

 

Support for Those Affected by Infidelity

 

This is a great site and extremely helpful to WS and BS who wish to reconcile. It also has one of the few forums for WSs to share their journey and help one another.

 

Thanks for posting it.

Edited March 25, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Merge

[MissBee]

I'm confused now. It seems we need to define "Dday".

 

To me Dday means Discovery Day, and it doesn't matter how it comes about, whether the WS tells the BS or the BS finds out all on his/her own.

 

Good.

 

I think the education is only valuable insofar as it allows the WS to tell the BS and be active versus passive.

[Snowflower]

hysterical bonding is , in my opinion, another one of those pop psychology terms that may have some validity, but when taken out of the context of an affair, you can see it may mean so much more than your definition makes it out to be...

 

when my husband leaves for a tasking or deployment, and when he comes back, we engage in hysterical bonding. Would you say this is because we are trying to put our "scent all over one another?"

 

I'll tell you why we do it ...we do it because there is a risk that we may lose each other ( deployment , heck life in general, can be dangerous, and i you know there is a rosk you may lose someone, it can make you really want to bond with them). It's a well documented occurrence and considered part of "the cycle of deployment"...

 

now bring that back to an affair situation...

 

as hard as it may be for some other men/women to understand and accept, many times the wayward spouse, does love their husband/wife. The betrayed spouse loves them. The realization of potential loss can really hit home and in many cases, this leads to hysterical bonding. ( or, to use the more colloquial term " great make up sex"...

 

this can go on for some time, but of course it won't really fix any problems that were there to start with...they have to be addressed separately...

 

same as every time my husband leaves and comes home...if we had any issues before he left, they will likely still be there when he gets back, and we deal with them ( after the "bonding' is over...which reminds me that i need to clean out our van before he gets back...our kids left a mess in the back again;):laugh: ....sorry, running joke)

 

 

good post.

 

IMO, the term hysterical bonding is a bit "pop-culture" like the terms 'closure' 'compartmentalization' etc.

 

"make-up sex" is a more accurate term and one that most people, regardless of their relatiohship status, will understand.

 

I think a lot of AP don't like the idea of hysterical bonding/make-up sex because they hate the idea of the MP they are involved with going home and having frequent, off the walls sex with their spouse.

 

So AP like to "rip" on the idea of hysterical bonding because it is a threat to their relationship with the MP. Even if the great make-up sex between the MP and the BS (I'm using the terms interchangeably so that no one gets upset) doesn't lead to the marriage recovering, it is still a threat to the MP for that uncertain time after d-day.

 

After all, who wants to be sitting home with a silent cellphone wondering where/what the MP is doing with their BS in bed?

[Owl]

Sometimes, though, it IS true. And sometimes BS here also acknowledge there were such problems.

 

The OTHER thing to bear in mind here...when the situation is as described...that "lack of intimacy"...can happen periodically throughout a long term relationship, and not absolutely be something that 'characterizes' that relationship.

 

All relationships go through up and down swings...just because it's "down" right now, doesn't mean it always has been, nor always will be.

 

On the OT of 'educating a WS' as preperation for d-day...it's only as useful as the WS is willing to let the education be. Typically, they begin an affair because they seek to AVOID reality and consequences...so preparing for reality and consequences is often something that they have little to no interest in.

[AnotherRound]

I was reading an article just yesterday actually that described the hysterical bonding as not authentic, in that it was a way for the BS to mark their territory and to kind of put their scent (if you will) over the OP. To reclaim their WS. That doesn't sound like authentic love to me - but kind of like animalistic competition and claiming of something that they want to continue to possess.

 

You're really twisting what it says in full. Surprise surprise

 

I'm sorry you think that, but I posted the link for others to read as I thought it was valuable. There were multiple places saying the same thing - and I thought it was an interesting concept. And, as I said, I don't really have an opinion as I haven't read enough about it. I will say that I believe in some cases it is authentic (like with ER and her husband) and in others, just panic - I am not pretending to know which cases are which - and as Miss Bee said - the truth of whether or not it was authentic probably can't be determined until later.

 

I apologize if you were triggered by my post, I really did think it a useful and helpful site and with some very good information (my agreement/disagreement with the site is really irrelevant).