Who Deserves Moral Credit for this Money?

[DannyMason]

I was only three years old when my mother left my father, but one particular piece of fallout from the divorce has bugged me ever since. Basically, during the divorce $5,000 dollars was set aside for my college education, but both of my parents claim moral credit for the money. I was hoping you guys could read the story behind it and voice your own opinion, or question the story itself.

 

I'm not fully certain about the exact circumstances around the allocation of the money. Despite claiming credit for the money my mother has never really talked in detail about the subject, which is a bit suspicious to me since if she were really the justified party I would have expected to hear her side of the story. I've wondered if maybe she has been willfully secretive because she knows that she wouldn't look sympathetic.

 

Dad has been more forthcoming with regards to his own interpretation of events related to the divorce, which is typical. He says that the money came from him as a compromise to help his parents keep their home. During the 70s Dad and his two brothers built a house for their parents (my grandparents). Our state's divorce laws legally entitled Mom to half of Dad's wealth and property so she pushed to get half of his share in his parents' house.

 

Getting the money would mean selling the place and Dad was furious at the idea of his parents "being put out on the street". He put up a huge fight in court to prevent the sale of the house. He claims Mom then changed her tune and said she only wanted the money to be set aside for me as a college fund. Dad agreed that I should have some college money, so offered $5,000 (which I believe was more than his stake in the house) to be set aside in a bank account. Mom accepted and this is how Dad claims the money came about.

 

Under these circumstances do you think Dad deserves more moral credit than Mom for the money. Is there anything fishy sounding about his version of events?

[anne1707]

Does it really matter? There are more ways to contribute to your well being than financial ones.

[DannyMason]

It matters because if my mother doesn't deserve credit she claims then she has made no financial contribution to my education despite having a greater financial resource base than my father, who arguably has shouldered almost the entire burden.

[anne1707]

But what I am getting at is that there are other "burdens" to having and raising a child other than financial ones. If all your focus is on $5000 then that seems rather sad to me. What about all the love you have been given throughout your life.

 

 

Oh, by the way. Your mother has probably spent quite a bit of money on you over the years too.

[DannyMason]

But what I am getting at is that there are other "burdens" to having and raising a child other than financial ones. If all your focus is on $5000 then that seems rather sad to me.

 

OK.

 

What about all the love you have been given throughout your life.

 

I've never felt especially loved.

 

Oh, by the way. Your mother has probably spent quite a bit of money on you over the years too.

 

Probably. But of course when I was a kid, Dad was paying child support, too, so even then he was helping.

[anne1707]

Hmmm....

 

Not the greatest upbringing and mixed messages from your parents then. (And I did not mean to imply your father did not contribute to your upbringing if that is the impression you got ).

 

I think the best thing you can do is not to take sides. Rise above and keep out of any continued "he said, she said". I know it is hard (been there, done that) but this is not of your doing.

 

Whether you believe your mother or your father, this money is for your education. Make the most of it and the opportunities it gives you. This is your stepping stone to independence.

[DannyMason]

Well, honestly I'm still sort of hoping for an answer to the question in the original post. Which parent's claim to credit for the money is most plausible?

[anne1707]

Danny

 

If you can't tell from hearing both sides from your parents than I doubt any of us can tell. You know these people way better than any of us. You know how they talk of past events. You know much of the history between them. All you can do, if this really matters to you, is go by your gut. Unless there is a trusted family member who you can speak to and ask for their version of events.

 

I know what it is like to be caught up in a situation like this. Sometimes it is better to let go and not be dragged down into it.

[Radu]

Assuming it happened the way your father described the event, and focusing on this sole story ... i would have to say that he deserves more credit.

 

Overall though, it's like anne said.

One thing i find particularly interesting is your hinting at not being loved ... by who ?

[Older 'n' wiser]

It matters because if my mother doesn't deserve credit she claims then she has made no financial contribution to my education despite having a greater financial resource base than my father, who arguably has shouldered almost the entire burden.

 

And there you have your answer! As I read over, around and through these lines, which, I have to say, is simply irresistible with all the tension and insistence of absolute objectivity and clarity from your third party participants in this moral decision. This is more like a sort of King Solomon type riddle that can only be answered after another question - the right question - is asked.

 

Before even going there, may we ask - why? What will be the result of the conclusion? Is it that, with all this evidence and logic, you will be justified in formally bestowing your gratitude on just one parent, thus, crowning that one the winner of .... what?

 

Excuse me while I try to shake the disbelief out of my head a little harder. It's not working, so I'll just tell you how all this strikes me from what and how you've presented it: Mainly, I want to shake all of you and give you my entire retirement savings for therapy. Since that won't happen, I'll try to explain rather than ask more questions. This question - and forgive me if I don't call it your question, but their utterly embarrassing ruse of a "question" - is monumentally absurd, morally reprehensible and tragically flawed from the get-go. And to be imposed upon such an earnest a young man at the start of his adult life, hoping and deserving all the good will and unselfishness that his family can muster for his sake - well, just tsk, tsk and shame, shame.

 

1. It is monumentally absurd, considering college costs these days. So, as logic goes, it is a very small 'credit' to bestow on anyone - let alone your parents. Your parents. The only mother and father you'll every have who mean - each in his and her own way according to their and your needs, LOVES you far more than this judgment will prove. Don't let them reduce your relationship to this. Show them how to rise above and be a generous adult child who can love each for who he or she is, with all their sullied past and present limitations. But not because they won the moral credit war.
   
2. It is also morally reprehensible because - for pete's sake, Danny! - I'm not sure who's responsible for making this sad symbol carry the burden of your relationship with your parents, but there's so much possibly going on here, I don't see how anyone could win. I'd hate to give my impression about who's manipulating whom here. Maybe everybody, but it really sounds like your father really has your ear for whatever reason. Maybe he's just more articulate. Maybe more persuasive generally. Maybe he's even a lawyer! Or maybe it’s your need to prove to your mother that she doesn't deserve the credit - and, consequently, your love and affection. It's clearly about so much more than college money.
   
3. And, finally, it is tragically flawed because you are missing the real value of this situation. You have the power to raise everyone above such a childish fray. You seem to be holding on so tightly to this excuse to lean her way or his, moreover, with the LS.org seal of approval! I hope someone else will weigh in here, so you can see that the entire premise of this so-called moral dilemma is flawed. This strange idea of “moral credit” loses any and all validity next to the moral debt of love accruing between you and each of your parents. Bestowing the credit on your father will not pardon him for this version of the past that manipulates your feelings and your memory of your mother. Whether or not she was the self-sacrificing nurturer you needed, it would be healthier for you to get your information from someone other than her divorcee. Punishing her this way will not correct your mother's inability to show you the real love and affection you crave, worth far more than $5,000 credit.
   

Maybe some day you’ll be in a place where you can, instead, tell each one that you love them and thank them for being in your life. But for now, it looks to me like this $5,000 moral dilemma is a red herring. Maybe you can say how you feel instead and what you need. Maybe you can say thank you to each one in a way that makes them think they are responsible (assuming they don’t make you report what you say to the other parent). Maybe you can say that you realize that assigning credit to one or the other of them for this small chunk of money would leave you far more indebted than you could ever begin to repay because that would either bless or curse them with a credit or debt they and you do not deserve.

 

Just see if you can rise above the need to answer this question. Accept the money, focus on your future and leave your parents' squabbling to them. Besides, every American child has a right to a college education. Don’t let them make this money so all-fired important or guilt you into this moral credit crap. It’s really crap, son. You deserve that much and more. It’s your birthright and your future. They should step up to the plate and give as much as they can to see you through – no strings attached, no credit, no promises and no milking it to make the other one look bad – good grief! Let them embrace the present as an opportunity to continue helping you through college and you keep your moral credit for the future. You might need it.

[SoleMate]

Seen in legal terms: Even by your dad's admission, the source of the money was ultimately your mother's vested property interest (which he disputed) in a piece of real estate. The legal right and beneficial interest was hers, but the control was in your father's hands. The fact that your father ungraciously acquiesced in a conditional fulfillment of her property right entitles him to minimal praise, IMO. The right to the "moral credit" depends on how strong or weak that dispute was in reality. To evaluate that dispute, you'd have to trace funds etc. and that is close to impossible at this point.

 

Seen in human terms: Why do you care? What is the real issue? Is this about you feeling unloved? Do you have a need to choose winner/loser, good/bad between your mother and father? If one of them is bad, does that necessarily mean the other one is good?

[Calvin's wagon]

Hi!

 

I think your wanting to know which of your parents gets the credit for setting aside the money could, given what you've written, be a symptom of the underlying insecurity, anger, desire to be loved/shown love that you're feeling towards both parents... I hope I'm wrong, but I would advise you to think more about why this is so important.

 

OK.

I've never felt especially loved.

 

To me, that was really sad to hear! It must be/have been extremely tough for you... And if this dispute between your parents is a typical example of their relationship and their parenting, I think it must have been even tougher for you. In a way, it seems to me that they're still using you, the money,...., to fight and settle scores, instead of working together to make your life as best as possible (not just financially, but, more importantly, emotionally).

 

 

If I may ask, how did you feel like during your childhood/youth years? Have you ever talked to your parents and other people (other relatives, school psychologists,...) about how you've felt, especially with regards to the separation of your parents.

 

 

I would strongly recommend you talk to someone about how you feel (maybe some good friends, psychologists, support groups (for children of divorced parents,...), read books on how to deal with that.

 

My parents aren't divorced, but for a long long time I was really afraid that they would get divorced and that somehow it would be my fault, and it was a terrible burden. But since they're not divorced, I hope someone else here who has gone through their parents divorcing will be able to give you their advice!

 

I would also recommend you to read literature regarding families. I'd strongly recommend Toxic Parents by Susan Forward (available online in PDF if you google it), and "Families and how to survive them" by Skynner! I hope they will help at least a little bit, they have certainly opened my eyes a lot.

 

Do you have any close relatives that you trust or feel loved by that you could talk to about this?

 

Have you ever told your parents about how you've never felt particularly loved?

 

I hope you or some adult (maybe family member) will get your parents to consider how their behaviour has and continues to affect you! I don't mean to be too hard on your parents because I don't know the whole story, but from where I'm sitting, there's a good chance that they should think hard about changing their parenting! Maybe it would also be good for them to read those books and talk to people...

 

I know all these questions are tough to talk about, but in my experience it is better to address them, because otherwise they can really affect one's life adversely...

 

I hope that you will continue to post here and talk to us, and that you will find some comfort and help in our advice!

 

Best wishes!

[Older 'n' wiser]

Hi!

 

I think your wanting to know which of your parents gets the credit for setting aside the money could, given what you've written, be a symptom of the underlying insecurity, anger, desire to be loved/shown love that you're feeling towards both parents... I hope I'm wrong, but I would advise you to think more about why this is so important.

 

 

 

To me, that was really sad to hear! It must be/have been extremely tough for you... And if this dispute between your parents is a typical example of their relationship and their parenting, I think it must have been even tougher for you. In a way, it seems to me that they're still using you, the money,...., to fight and settle scores, instead of working together to make your life as best as possible (not just financially, but, more importantly, emotionally).

 

 

If I may ask, how did you feel like during your childhood/youth years? Have you ever talked to your parents and other people (other relatives, school psychologists,...) about how you've felt, especially with regards to the separation of your parents.

 

 

I would strongly recommend you talk to someone about how you feel (maybe some good friends, psychologists, support groups (for children of divorced parents,...), read books on how to deal with that.

 

My parents aren't divorced, but for a long long time I was really afraid that they would get divorced and that somehow it would be my fault, and it was a terrible burden. But since they're not divorced, I hope someone else here who has gone through their parents divorcing will be able to give you their advice!

 

I would also recommend you to read literature regarding families. I'd strongly recommend Toxic Parents by Susan Forward (available online in PDF if you google it), and "Families and how to survive them" by Skynner! I hope they will help at least a little bit, they have certainly opened my eyes a lot.

 

Do you have any close relatives that you trust or feel loved by that you could talk to about this?

 

Have you ever told your parents about how you've never felt particularly loved?

 

I hope you or some adult (maybe family member) will get your parents to consider how their behaviour has and continues to affect you! I don't mean to be too hard on your parents because I don't know the whole story, but from where I'm sitting, there's a good chance that they should think hard about changing their parenting! Maybe it would also be good for them to read those books and talk to people...

 

I know all these questions are tough to talk about, but in my experience it is better to address them, because otherwise they can really affect one's life adversely...

 

I hope that you will continue to post here and talk to us, and that you will find some comfort and help in our advice!

 

Best wishes!

 

That was very, very nicely done and gently put, Calvin, and, I hope, helpful for Danny. I forgot, until I was in the midst of my rant up there, that this is a section for and by children! I think I was a bit heavy-handed in my criticism of your parents up there and for that, I apologize. One thing that happens here is that sometimes it's easier to see somebody else's situation, when dealing with matters of the heart and the effort showed how much you had put into framing your question in a clear, logical way. Good for each one of you for having the courage to articulate your issues to each other and possibly others much older.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Older 'n' wiser

[DannyMason]

Since many of the responses were so substantial I'm going to reply to each replier in a separate post so my responses to each member don't just start bleeding into each other.

 

One thing i find particularly interesting is your hinting at not being loved ... by who ?

 

My mother, especially, but in the end I'd say both of them given how emotionally abusive dad has been all these years.

[DannyMason]

Before even going there' date=' may we ask - why? What will be the result of the conclusion? Is it that, with all this evidence and logic, you will be justified in formally bestowing your gratitude on just one parent, thus, crowning that one the winner of .... what?[/quote']

 

I feel like I have good reason to suspect that my mother hasn't fulfillled her moral obligations as a parent and would like to know one way or another.

 

It is monumentally absurd' date=' considering college costs these days. So, as logic goes, it is a very small 'credit' to bestow on anyone - let alone your parents.[/quote']

Four years of tuition and books at the university I attend, at the prices from the time I started, would be about $18,000. The $5,000 dollars from the divorce had grown through interest to a bit over $7,500. That's a pretty sizable chunk of what I would have been justified in expecting. If Mom deserves credit for the money, she did well. If she doesn't, then she did essentially nothing at all.

 

Your parents. The only mother and father you'll every have who mean - each in his and her own way according to their and your needs' date=' LOVES you far more than this judgment will prove. Don't let them reduce your relationship to this.[/quote']

 

Mom's claim to love me will be severely weakened through absence of evidence if she doesn't deserve credit for the divorce money. Also, I have very little in the way of a meaningful relationship with either parent.

 

I'd hate to give my impression about who's manipulating whom here. Maybe everybody' date=' but it really sounds like your father really has your ear for whatever reason. Maybe he's just more articulate. Maybe more persuasive generally. Maybe he's even a lawyer! Or maybe it’s your need to prove to your mother that she doesn't deserve the credit - and, consequently, your love and affection. It's clearly about so much more than college money.[/quote']

Oh, I'd say that there's plenty of moral failing on all sides. My father is an emotionally abusive, unstable, authoritarian fundamentalist nutbag, but so far as I can tell he's the only one who's made real sacrifices in support of my long term well-being. Dad's only more persuasive in so far as he's the only one who seriously talks about the subject. As mentioned in my first post, my mother has always been suspiciously evasive. Dad's claims have also seemed to be better supported by evidence in the long run.

 

And' date=' finally, it is tragically flawed because you are missing the real value of this situation. You have the power to raise everyone above such a childish fray.[/quote']

No I don't, and it's not fair to expect me to.

 

Whether or not she was the self-sacrificing nurturer you needed' date=' it would be healthier for you to get your information from someone other than her divorcee.[/quote']

 

That's why I made this thread!

 

Punishing her this way will not correct your mother's inability to show you the real love and affection you crave' date=' worth far more than $5,000 credit. [/quote']

 

I don't feel like I'm obligated to make my mother love me.

 

Maybe some day you’ll be in a place where you can' date=' instead, tell each one that you love them and thank them for being in your life.[/quote']

 

I'm not holding my breath.

 

But for now' date=' it looks to me like this $5,000 moral dilemma is a red herring. Maybe you can say how you feel instead and what you need. Maybe you can say thank you to each one in a way that makes them think they are responsible (assuming they don’t make you report what you say to the other parent). Maybe you can say that you realize that assigning credit to one or the other of them for this small chunk of money would leave you far more indebted than you could ever begin to repay because that would either bless or curse them with a credit or debt they and you do not deserve.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I understand anything in this passage.

 

Just see if you can rise above the need to answer this question. Accept the money' date=' focus on your future and leave your parents' squabbling to them. Besides, every American child has a right to a college education. Don’t let them make this money so all-fired important or guilt you into this moral credit crap. It’s really crap, son. You deserve that much and more. It’s your birthright and your future. They should step up to the plate and give as much as they can to see you through – no strings attached, no credit, no promises and no milking it to make the other one look bad – good grief! Let them embrace the present as an opportunity to continue helping you through college and you keep your moral credit for the future. You might need it.[/quote']

 

If I really do deserve support then whether or not I'm getting it takes on a higher degree of importance. I'm not convinced my mother has fulfilled her obligations and if that is the case I feel justified in being upset with her.

[DannyMason]

Seen in legal terms: Even by your dad's admission, the source of the money was ultimately your mother's vested property interest (which he disputed) in a piece of real estate. The legal right and beneficial interest was hers, but the control was in your father's hands. The fact that your father ungraciously acquiesced in a conditional fulfillment of her property right entitles him to minimal praise, IMO. The right to the "moral credit" depends on how strong or weak that dispute was in reality. To evaluate that dispute, you'd have to trace funds etc. and that is close to impossible at this point.

 

I'm not sure I understand all the legal terminology in this post. When you described my grandparents' home as Mom's "vested property interest" do you mean that you think she had some of her own money invested in the property? Mom didn't actually have any of her own money there, the basis for her claim for Dad's share of the property was simply that it was part of their total collective wealth, half of which she was entitled to per our home state's divorce law.

 

Seen in human terms: Why do you care? What is the real issue? Is this about you feeling unloved?

I suppose. I want to know if Mom ever sacrificed for my long term wellbeing.

 

Do you have a need to choose winner/loser, good/bad between your mother and father? If one of them is bad, does that necessarily mean the other one is good?

No, I'm pretty sure at this point that they both suck in their own tragically complementary ways.

[DannyMason]

I think your wanting to know which of your parents gets the credit for setting aside the money could' date=' given what you've written, be a symptom of the underlying insecurity, anger, desire to be loved/shown love that you're feeling towards both parents... I hope I'm wrong, but I would advise you to think more about why this is so important.[/quote']

 

Yeah, basically. I want to know if my mother has ever sacrificed for my long term wellbeing.

To me' date=' that was really sad to hear! It must be/have been extremely tough for you... [/quote']

Not really. I didn't feel actively hated or anything.

And if this dispute between your parents is a typical example of their relationship and their parenting' date=' I think it must have been even tougher for you. In a way, it seems to me that they're still using you, the money,...., to fight and settle scores, instead of working together to make your life as best as possible (not just financially, but, more importantly, emotionally).[/quote']

The war between my mother and father is pretty one-sided; Dad's the only one fighting.

 

If I may ask' date=' how did you feel like during your childhood/youth years?[/quote']

If I had to sum up the way I felt growing up in one word I would say that I felt... tolerated.

 

Have you ever talked to your parents and other people (other relatives' date=' school psychologists,...) about how you've felt, especially with regards to the separation of your parents.[/quote']

Not especially. I've always tried to avoid any serious talk with my parents due to their respective temperments, I don't have any relatives that I would feel safe with confiding anything I didn't want my parents to know, I was in therapy for about two years early in my college career, but my therapist wasn't especially interested in my past.

 

I would strongly recommend you talk to someone about how you feel (maybe some good friends' date=' psychologists, support groups (for children of divorced parents,...), read books on how to deal with that.[/quote']

I don't have any friends, can't afford and don't necessarily trust a psychiatrist, and divorce-related drama has been so quiet for so long that I honestly don't think there'd be much for me to get out of a support group.

 

My parents aren't divorced' date=' but for a long long time I was really afraid that they would get divorced and that somehow it would be my fault, and it was a terrible burden. But since they're not divorced, I hope someone else here who has gone through their parents divorcing will be able to give you their advice![/quote']

I'm sorry to hear about your own parent troubles. I'm glad that one common divorce-related trauma that I actually avoided was that feeling of responsability for the split. I never even vaguely felt responsible for my parents breaking up, although that may be because they divorced when I was like three and I grew up accepting their separation as just another basic fact about the universe, like the sky being blue.

 

I would also recommend you to read literature regarding families. I'd strongly recommend Toxic Parents by Susan Forward (available online in PDF if you google it)' date=' and "Families and how to survive them" by Skynner! I hope they will help at least a little bit, they have certainly opened my eyes a lot.[/quote']

Thank you for the reccommendations! I'll look for the PDF copy of Toxic Parents and start reading it tomorrow.

 

Do you have any close relatives that you trust or feel loved by that you could talk to about this?

No.

 

Have you ever told your parents about how you've never felt particularly loved?

Not in so many words, but I think Mom kind of knows.

 

I hope you or some adult (maybe family member) will get your parents to consider how their behaviour has and continues to affect you! I don't mean to be too hard on your parents because I don't know the whole story' date=' but from where I'm sitting, there's a good chance that they should think hard about changing their parenting! Maybe it would also be good for them to read those books and talk to people...[/quote']

My parents aren't changing.

 

I know all these questions are tough to talk about, but in my experience it is better to address them, because otherwise they can really affect one's life adversely...

 

I hope that you will continue to post here and talk to us, and that you will find some comfort and help in our advice!

 

Best wishes!

 

Thanks for the well wishes.

[anne1707]

My parents aren't changing.

 

At the end of the day, this is the critical issue. They are not going to change. So it is down to you to make this situation change for you. That does not mean you change how you act with your parents to become the son you think they want.

 

It means you change how you think and feel about this so it no longer eats away at you whereby you feel the need to start threads about it (no harm or insult meant by that ). I see that you have bought a book recommended by another poster which is a start. I also see that you have had counselling but that did not work out for you. I suggest you try looking for another counsellor to find one that will really help you work through your thoughts and feelings on your history so that you can have a future free of this worry.

[SoleMate]

When you described my grandparents' home as Mom's "vested property interest" do you mean that you think she had some of her own money invested in the property?

I understand that your mother never wrote a check out of her personal checking account to buy the house.

 

Mom didn't actually have any of her own money there, the basis for her claim for Dad's share of the property was simply that it was part of their total collective wealth, half of which she was entitled to per our home state's divorce law.

According to law, the fact that the interest in the house was part of their collective marital wealth is equivalent to saying she had her own money there. You seem to think that those are two different things, but they are not.

 

Normally I would not quibble over legal terminology in a post that is more about feelings of rejection, but in this case I do think it's important.