He feels he needs to be financially able to support a family before marrying?

[Els]

This thread is a bit of a followup from http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/382678-how-do-you-tell-people-nicely-mind-their-own-damn-business , but on a completely different topic, so I decided to post it here.

 

Basically, some people in my life have been bugging me about when the bf and I were going to get married, given that we've been together for quite a long time (since we were 21). This was getting me very upset, until I realized that the reason I was sensitive about this topic in particular was because, well, I do actually want to get married. I just had never felt the sense of urgency before people kept sticking their heads up my craw about it.

 

I also realized it wasn't a great idea to get married out of pressure - that sort of thing never lasts. So I put all the external noise away and asked myself: What do I really want?

 

I came to the conclusion that my ideal time would be in about 2 years or so, when I'm done with grad school and will be 28. I also realized that even though the eventuality of marriage was important to me, the timing wasn't terribly important. I'm a believer in enjoying all stages in the journey of life rather than rushing single-mindedly towards a goal, and especially as I'm only 26 now, not having experienced much of life, and unlikely to want children, I see no harm in waiting a bit.

 

Conversation with the bf revealed that he also saw it as a necessary eventuality that he wanted to happen (he has told me this before, simply reaffirming it now), but that his ideal time was further down the line than mine. He believes that as the man, he should have a thriving career and stable finances before he marries so that he would definitely be able to support his family, even if we have no children and 'family' only means me. His definition of this, however, means having a spot in a residency programme (think that's what it's called in the USA? here docs don't go straight to residency after med school, though) and having saved up enough to put down the downpayment on a house. Estimates are that this will take him about 3-5 years.

 

I told him that in my opinion, he already has a career and decent finances - sure, he doesn't have much in terms of savings cause he's still paying off his med school fees, but he's guaranteed to almost never be unemployed, and he's already paying the bulk of our shared expenses now anyway. I told him that I should be able to support myself after grad school, and it did not matter to me that he was a doc a few years out of med school. He appreciates that, but says that he still feels it's his responsibility and he would feel like a failure if he married me and we ended up broke. (In our culture, it's pretty common for guys to want to have financial stability before marrying, but most guys take that to mean 'has a stable full-time job', fullstop )

 

If this were any other guy, I'd say he's throwing me a good one, but his actions have been consistent with his words thus far. He is, in general, much harder on himself than anyone else is on him. Also, to preclude thoughts about him 'getting the milk for free without buying the cow', he intends to take my virginity (physical - the spiritual boat has sailed a loooooooooooong time ago ) after marriage (not an uncommon trend amongst 'respectable' guys in my culture). He has consistently put significant amounts of time, effort, and money (at his own insistence) into our R, so I have no reasons to believe he doesn't truly care about me. Both of us have made some sacrifices to remain together through some extenuating circumstances that we've had to go through.

 

The only explanation is that his explanation is true. Given that, and given the time estimates above, I believe a time will come, in 2 years' time, when I feel it's 'time' and he doesn't, yet. When that happens, I'm thinking that I'll wait for him - I truly love this man and believe that he is worth waiting out the few more years. Pragmatically I understand that if we break up at any point prior to his estimates of marriage - say when I'm 30 and he's 31, I will have 'wasted' my twenties, it will be easier for him to find another partner than for me, and I know that my relatives and friends will give me hell for this. But I also feel that I'm young enough to afford to take the risk, because I believe this R is worth it.

 

Any thoughts? Please bear the differing cultures in mind when responding (we're both East Asians who have been living in a Caucasian country for a few years).

 

Oh, btw. I didn't feel this was relevant at first, but after browsing a few other threads recently I figure I should put this in to avoid a derail. Regarding the virginity: there is sexual intimacy aplenty and has been since a few months into the R - I would not be in a R without it. Both of us are of the view that there is no lack of activities one can do in sex sans intercourse, though, and that is what we are doing (and, may I say, is working out very well for us ). We have no doubt that intercourse will bring us greater intimacy when the time comes, but I think we have quite definitively assessed our sexual compatibility even while holding out on that.

 

There are a few other reasons for that besides the milk/cow deal, that I have explained in various abortion threads, but that's a bit too much of a derail, so I figure I can safely leave that out.

Edited March 31, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Merge

[Kamille]

Hey Els, I think you guys are doing great just in the way you're talking about marriage. He also certainly wouldn't be the first man to equate marriage with being financially able to support a family.

 

The one important factor about marriage and finance, however, is that you decide how you will pool your incomes and expenditures once you are settled.

 

I told him that I should be able to support myself after grad school

 

Support yourself? That strikes me as an odd way of framing: after grad school, I will be able to contribute to building our dream of marriage, house ownership, etc. Or is his expectation that his income should be able to support the both of you and a future family, all on its own? There's a huge difference between the two, and I think this is where you can play a role in ensuring the two of you are established and have the money to put down on a house in about 3 years.

[Els]

Hey Els, I think you guys are doing great just in the way you're talking about marriage. He also certainly wouldn't be the first man to equate marriage with being financially able to support a family.

 

The one important factor about marriage and finance, however, is that you decide how you will pool your incomes and expenditures once you are settled.

 

Support yourself? That strikes me as an odd way of framing: after grad school, I will be able to contribute to building our dream of marriage, house ownership, etc. Or is his expectation that his income should be able to support the both of you and a future family, all on its own? There's a huge difference between the two, and I think this is where you can play a role in ensuring the two of you are established and have the money to put down on a house in about 3 years.

 

Hi, K - always glad to read your responses.

 

I do want to clarify that both of us are fairly certain that we don't want children. So it will be just him and me.

 

That being said, I mentioned supporting myself because he mentioned supporting me, after the talk about the lack of children. It sounds extremely old-fashioned - please don't stone him for this! - but I asked, and he said that my income or contribution won't affect the timeline. If I am able to contribute, that's a bonus to him, but he wants the stability of being able to support us regardless of my income/career situation. So, yes, essentially the bolded, I suppose.

 

Realistically I know that my pay in academia here will be about 1/3 times what he will be making in 2 years' time.

[Kamille]

 

It sounds extremely old-fashioned - please don't stone him for this! - but I asked, and he said that my income or contribution won't affect the timeline. If I am able to contribute, that's a bonus to him, but he wants the stability of being able to support us regardless of my income/career situation. So, yes, essentially the bolded, I suppose.

 

Realistically I know that my pay in academia here will be about 1/3 times what he will be making in 2 years' time.

 

So your income will be 100% dedicated to supporting yourself? Oh goodness, think of all the shoes you'll be able to buy!

 

I'm kidding. I feel like I know enough about you to know that you will contribute financially to the household.

 

If you're not in a rush, I wonder if the best compromise right now is this: hold off on this conversation until you are on the job market. Once that happens and you are able to contribute to the downpayment, revisit his timeline. I get the impression that the both of you agree would prefer being financially established before marriage anyway.

[xxoo]

If you don't want to have children, I don't think you can "waste" time in a nourishing relationship. If you end up single at 30, will you regret how you lived your 20s?

 

You say that it would be easier for him to find a new partner at 31 than for you at 30. Are you concerned that, without marriage, he will be tempted to look for "greener grass" after he reaches his professional goals?

 

Is he open to compromise at all on the timing?

[Els]

So your income will be 100% dedicated to supporting yourself? Oh goodness, think of all the shoes you'll be able to buy!

 

Man, I hadn't thought of that!!! :lmao::lmao:

 

I'm kidding. I feel like I know enough about you to know that you will contribute financially to the household.

 

If you're not in a rush, I wonder if the best compromise right now is this: hold off on this conversation until you are on the job market. Once that happens and you are able to contribute to the downpayment, revisit his timeline. I get the impression that the both of you agree would prefer being financially established before marriage anyway.

 

Hey, you're right. That would be a great idea - I think that's what I will do anyway, since I myself will prefer to be done with grad school first. We will revisit it when the time comes - it's just that I ask myself, if there is STILL a significant timeline discrepancy at that time, what then? I know this sounds like a lot of rumination for a distant point in the future, but that's a trait that I haven't been able to kick, and it's actually served me well sometimes.

 

Also, I don't think the bottleneck will be the house downpayment - it's much more likely to be the residency spot, which I don't think I can do anything about (bar bribing the guy in charge ). Then again, his definition of stability may change in 2 years' time, of course.

[Els]

If you don't want to have children, I don't think you can "waste" time in a nourishing relationship. If you end up single at 30, will you regret how you lived your 20s?

 

Good point.

 

You say that it would be easier for him to find a new partner at 31 than for you at 30. Are you concerned that, without marriage, he will be tempted to look for "greener grass" after he reaches his professional goals?

 

At the risk of sounding naive, no, I don't think so. We both look for fairly unique traits in partners and have plenty of quirks, so I don't think either of us are easily 'replaceable'. I also don't think that marriage will stop someone who wants to cheat or leave. In fact, I admit that this hadn't occurred to me at all. Do you feel I should be concerned?

 

Is he open to compromise at all on the timing?

 

No. I don't think he should be, though. He said that marriage, like sex, is one of the things you should wait for til both parties are ready, not just one, otherwise there's a higher likelihood of it failing. I agree with that - the part I can't understand is why 'being ready' requires a house and a residency spot and savings instead of just a job (and a person you love).

[xxoo]

At the risk of sounding naive, no, I don't think so. We both look for fairly unique traits in partners and have plenty of quirks, so I don't think either of us are easily 'replaceable'. I also don't think that marriage will stop someone who wants to cheat or leave. In fact, I admit that this hadn't occurred to me at all. Do you feel I should be concerned?

 

No, I don't

 

I read into the wording, that's all.

[Els]

Ah, okay. The words were based on my assumption that dating gets harder for women in the 30s, which could be untrue.

[Kamille]

Ah, okay. The words were based on my assumption that dating gets harder for women in the 30s, which could be untrue.

 

It got easier for me, but then, I also am a lot more confident than I used to be.

 

One of my friends, who is drop dead gorgeous, is hung up on the fact that she's 37 years old and still single. She thinks this means she "loses value" in guys' mind. She's struggling but that believe means she's lost her mojo. She's doing, in her late 30s, all the mistake I made in my 20s: focusing on getting guys to like her; trying to force relationships that don't work; hanging on to men who haven't shown they can provide the love she needs.

 

In the end, it really is all about attitude.

 

Sorry, I know this is slightly ot, but I figured I would share.

[Silly_Girl]

I guess it's very much a cultural thing? I see that you guys are a family NOW. You've established the long-term plan and are pulling in the same direction. I'm big on teamwork and I see attaining financial stability and fiscal planning to be joint goals - the responsibility of THE TEAM.

 

So I would never buy what your bf is saying - even though its clear to you he means it and it isn't flannel.

 

I would be asking 'do we want to get married? Is it very important? When does it suit us, as a team, to do it?'

 

In your shoes I would prefer not to wait, for the reasons you mention and some more, and I wouldn't accept being told I must because it helps my partner's ego (in his quest to be the big provider) to do so.

[Els]

It got easier for me, but then, I also am a lot more confident than I used to be.

 

One of my friends, who is drop dead gorgeous, is hung up on the fact that she's 37 years old and still single. She thinks this means she "loses value" in guys' mind. She's struggling but that believe means she's lost her mojo. She's doing, in her late 30s, all the mistake I made in my 20s: focusing on getting guys to like her; trying to force relationships that don't work; hanging on to men who haven't shown they can provide the love she needs.

 

In the end, it really is all about attitude.

 

Sorry, I know this is slightly ot, but I figured I would share.

 

This makes a lot of sense, thanks.

 

 

I would be asking 'do we want to get married? Is it very important?

 

We have already answered these, yep.

 

When does it suit us, as a team, to do it?'

 

This is where the difference lies. I'm sure it's possible for two people in a team to have different opinions - what then?

 

In your shoes I would prefer not to wait, for the reasons you mention and some more, and I wouldn't accept being told I must because it helps my partner's ego (in his quest to be the big provider) to do so.

 

I don't think anyone can tell anyone that they 'must' wait, honestly. I am certainly a free person and I am free to leave if I don't wish to wait for him to be ready. He knows that.

 

The question is: Is that a good idea? It's certainly a risk to wait, but it's also a risk to leave, especially when you with someone this compatible. Lots of people date for years and years before they find this sort of R, IMO.

[Sparty97]

The "as a team" thing is a struggle when you are dealing with two people and their individual needs. I can see where he's coming from on the financial thing, but I wonder if it's not a way to put it off.

 

You may be ready now, and he says "in 3 years" or whatever...in a case like that I think you have to defer to the later date, but see if you can get an actual date and not a promise for further discussion later.

[Els]

That is a good point, thanks.

 

I think an interesting issue here is that you have to note that if he is putting off marriage, he is simultaneously delaying intercourse. That is the way self-regulation of marriage works in our culture, as ancient as it may seem . So women don't typically wonder if their bf is just faffing with them, stringing them along, and never intending to marry - because intercourse only comes with marriage.

[Els]

A few more questions, if you guys don't mind

 

Kamille - Do you feel that your experience of dating being viable in the 30s is common amongst other women as well?

 

xxoo - AFAIK, you and your husband married quite early. What do you feel you would have done if he had wanted to wait for a few years more?

[Kamille]

Kamille - Do you feel that your experience of dating being viable in the 30s is common amongst other women as well?

 

 

Yes. A few of my friends have become single in their 30s and most of them seemed to enjoy the process of dating. Few of them stayed single for every long. Add the fact that they're usually grounded, intelligent, beautiful women and men usually flock to them.

 

I don't think your bf is faffing you along, I think he just takes marriage very seriously. So you aren't likely to find yourself single in your 30s. But, if you did, you would fall in the grounded, intelligent, beautiful woman category.

 

Men are more forward in their 30s (at least here) and they also, ime, appreciate a good woman more when they meet one.

 

Now, where is my prince charming ?

[Els]

Yes. A few of my friends have become single in their 30s and most of them seemed to enjoy the process of dating. Few of them stayed single for every long. Add the fact that they're usually grounded, intelligent, beautiful women and men usually flock to them.

 

I'm glad to hear this, K. It's hard to see through all the shtick that the media and some portions of society attribute to single women in their 30s and above. I'm very glad that reality is not the same.

 

I don't think your bf is faffing you along, I think he just takes marriage very seriously. So you aren't likely to find yourself single in your 30s.

 

I don't think he's faffing, too - he has always viewed marriage as a lifetime commitment. I do think that a relationship not working out is always a realistic possibility, though. More importantly, I wonder about how long I am prepared to wait and how long I should be willing to wait, due to the discrepancy in our timelines even though both of us are positive that we do want marriage in the future.

 

But, if you did, you would fall in the grounded, intelligent, beautiful woman category.

 

Awww, K.

 

Men are more forward in their 30s (at least here) and they also, ime, appreciate a good woman more when they meet one.

 

Can't comment on that. I do think that men are typically more ready to marry in their 30s, though, especially if they require career/financial stability prior to marrying. The 20s are tough in that aspect - you've just graduated, gotta pay off loans, starting out from scratch, etc.

 

Now, where is my prince charming ?

 

He got lost in the forbidden forest for a bit. He'll be there! :bunny:

[Cutiepie1976]

I glanced through the thread, but haven't read the posts in detail, so apologies if I missed something...

 

Should I be concerned?

I don't see anything to be concerned about right now. You both want marriage with each other. You're young. You don't want kids. (My advice would be different if you were in your thirties, wanted kids, but wanted to be married first btw.)

 

Most physicians in the US marry around med school graduation, or shortly after residency/fellowship. Then there are the many stragglers. Not sure how things work in your current country, but the matching process for residency in the US is incredibly stressful on those who are married or engaged because of the unknowns. Most people defer committing to someone until that is known.

 

On the surface, your boyfriend's thoughts make perfect sense. Yours do as well, and TBH in your situation, I would land where you are. What I would caution, if he were the one posting, would be his thinking of having a house and a certain income yadda yadda yadda before he gets married. There is never a perfect time to marry (or have kids). You just have to jump in at some point. (That's the input I gave my brother when he was struggling with the whole issue and asked me for advice...very similar story to yours, except a couple more years together at the time...and he's so glad he did.)

 

I would drop discussing it further. I agree that pressuring him can be counterproductive, especially since you yourself aren't yet ready to marry. You know what you need to know at this point--that you want the same thing. You want to marry each other.

 

Does his family like you? His mom? His siblings? If so, they are likely to be pressuring him anyway. Let them do the "dirty" work without your involvement. If he's not ready and he's feeling pressured, then his resentment will be towards them, not you. Keep resentment outside your relationship, rather than having it directed at you.

 

Is there life after thirty?

Dating gets soooo much better for women after thirty IME!! There is a much higher proportion of guys who are focused on meeting your needs, not just their own. They are better, more considerate, more empathetic relationship partners. They give more of themselves in a relationship. More are looking for an emotional connection. They are more sure of themselves.

 

The opinions on LS are not representative at all. They remind me of the reaction I got when turning down a "friend" of mine in college in between two relationships. Pure vitriol! He told me I would die a lonely old maid with a house full of cats. That I was turning down the best thing that I would ever get and would regret it for the rest of my life. That I would get dumped by the next guy I picked. That no one would ever want me again. The tirade, much as some posts here was so caustic and bitter, it was unbelievable. At the time, I was shocked that I hadn't picked up on his true nature and had befriended such a monster. Now I understand that he was just incredibly frustrated because no one would date him.

 

Life begins in your thirties. You know who you are. You are confident in yourself. Guys are a pleasure to date. They treat you well. I am hit on constantly. I'm pursued by guys of all ages, and the quality is better in some ways. If I'm not dating, it's because I don't want to. If I want a relationship, I have enough dating options that I'll fall into one fairly easily. In terms of when dating becomes harder? I don't know when that happens. I see women dating and getting married at all ages. Look at Joan Collins. In her late 70's and married to a guy in his mid 40's.

 

Michael Bloomberg said when he got divorced, that being a billionaire in NYC was a guy's wet dream. He's in a long-term relationship with an accomplished woman in her 60's, who looks every bit her age. His choice runs counter to what one would expect if you believed the drivel spouted by posts on LS. Life is what you make of it, I think.

 

Don't act out of fear. We tend to act in counterproductive ways when we are scared we won't have other choices down the road.

 

Clarity will come with time for you. No need to push at this point. You have the right attitude.

[Anela]

It got easier for me, but then, I also am a lot more confident than I used to be.

 

One of my friends, who is drop dead gorgeous, is hung up on the fact that she's 37 years old and still single. She thinks this means she "loses value" in guys' mind. She's struggling but that believe means she's lost her mojo. She's doing, in her late 30s, all the mistake I made in my 20s: focusing on getting guys to like her; trying to force relationships that don't work; hanging on to men who haven't shown they can provide the love she needs.

 

In the end, it really is all about attitude.

 

Sorry, I know this is slightly ot, but I figured I would share.

 

Except for the drop-dead-gorgeous part, and hanging onto men who aren't good for me (already done that with one), this describes me. I'm just not trying anymore. My whole life is screwed up, though. On the "givers and takers" thread of ptp's, I almost wrote that I sometimes think of myself as the horrible warning: "do you want to be me in ten years? No? then do what the others are advising" type of thing.

 

I never expected to feel this way in my thirties. I've had personal issues that added to it, though.

 

(I responded because I saw Elswyth's question. Sorry if this is off-topic.)

[Silly_Girl]

 

 

 

We have already answered these, yep.

 

So then it's a question of HOW important marriage is to you both

 

 

 

This is where the difference lies. I'm sure it's possible for two people in a team to have different opinions - what then?

 

You have told us about his reasoning, and why he wants to wait. How does he feel about your reasoning, and that you don't?

 

 

 

I don't think anyone can tell anyone that they 'must' wait, honestly. I am certainly a free person and I am free to leave if I don't wish to wait for him to be ready. He knows that.

 

I totally get that you are independent in that way. But your post *feels* as though his feelings and preferences take priority. Perhaps they don't. Perhaps it's the way it's worded and because you're explaining things to us but to me it's as though he has a larger say.

 

The question is: Is that a good idea? It's certainly a risk to wait, but it's also a risk to leave, especially when you with someone this compatible. Lots of people date for years and years before they find this sort of R, IMO.

 

It IS a risk to leave, yes, but if the relationship you want to be in means a change in marital status now, then, to my mind, it's a bigger risk to stay.

[Els]

Should I be concerned?

I don't see anything to be concerned about right now. You both want marriage with each other. You're young. You don't want kids. (My advice would be different if you were in your thirties, wanted kids, but wanted to be married first btw.)

 

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

Most physicians in the US marry around med school graduation, or shortly after residency/fellowship. Then there are the many stragglers. Not sure how things work in your current country, but the matching process for residency in the US is incredibly stressful on those who are married or engaged because of the unknowns. Most people defer committing to someone until that is known.

 

Yes, the matching process for residency is incredibly stressful here, too, except that it's stressful to even get into it here.

 

That has actually been a major precipitating point in my ruminations about the future. There may come a time when I may need to take a hit to my career in order to move with him (or do a LDR), because most people need to move to where the residency offer is. In that case I don't think I can or should do it without the commitment of marriage. We might also be lucky and end up in the same spot anyway with no sacrifice required, of course, in which case that wouldn't be a problem.

 

On the surface, your boyfriend's thoughts make perfect sense. Yours do as well, and TBH in your situation, I would land where you are. What I would caution, if he were the one posting, would be his thinking of having a house and a certain income yadda yadda yadda before he gets married. There is never a perfect time to marry (or have kids). You just have to jump in at some point. (That's the input I gave my brother when he was struggling with the whole issue and asked me for advice...very similar story to yours, except a couple more years together at the time...and he's so glad he did.)

 

Yep, I agree with this. Unfortunately we see things quite differently from each other in this aspect. That being said, I actually think it's great that he takes financial responsibility seriously. A friend of mine is supporting her newly-wed husband in addition to paying off the house that they bought together, because he quit his job due to 'not liking it'. That isn't something I'd want to sign up for.

 

I would drop discussing it further. I agree that pressuring him can be counterproductive, especially since you yourself aren't yet ready to marry. You know what you need to know at this point--that you want the same thing. You want to marry each other.

 

Makes sense.

 

Does his family like you? His mom? His siblings? If so, they are likely to be pressuring him anyway. Let them do the "dirty" work without your involvement. If he's not ready and he's feeling pressured, then his resentment will be towards them, not you. Keep resentment outside your relationship, rather than having it directed at you.

 

Asian culture doesn't typically pressure men to marry early, unfortunately. It's very acceptable and even encouraged for men to marry in their thirties.

 

Is there life after thirty?

Dating gets soooo much better for women after thirty IME!! There is a much higher proportion of guys who are focused on meeting your needs, not just their own. They are better, more considerate, more empathetic relationship partners. They give more of themselves in a relationship. More are looking for an emotional connection. They are more sure of themselves.

 

The opinions on LS are not representative at all. They remind me of the reaction I got when turning down a "friend" of mine in college in between two relationships. Pure vitriol! He told me I would die a lonely old maid with a house full of cats. That I was turning down the best thing that I would ever get and would regret it for the rest of my life. That I would get dumped by the next guy I picked. That no one would ever want me again. The tirade, much as some posts here was so caustic and bitter, it was unbelievable. At the time, I was shocked that I hadn't picked up on his true nature and had befriended such a monster. Now I understand that he was just incredibly frustrated because no one would date him.

 

Life begins in your thirties. You know who you are. You are confident in yourself. Guys are a pleasure to date. They treat you well. I am hit on constantly. I'm pursued by guys of all ages, and the quality is better in some ways. If I'm not dating, it's because I don't want to. If I want a relationship, I have enough dating options that I'll fall into one fairly easily. In terms of when dating becomes harder? I don't know when that happens. I see women dating and getting married at all ages. Look at Joan Collins. In her late 70's and married to a guy in his mid 40's.

 

Michael Bloomberg said when he got divorced, that being a billionaire in NYC was a guy's wet dream. He's in a long-term relationship with an accomplished woman in her 60's, who looks every bit her age. His choice runs counter to what one would expect if you believed the drivel spouted by posts on LS. Life is what you make of it, I think.

 

That's great to hear.

 

Don't act out of fear. We tend to act in counterproductive ways when we are scared we won't have other choices down the road.

 

Clarity will come with time for you. No need to push at this point. You have the right attitude.

 

Very sound advice. You're right in that my urgency to marry earlier is motivated mostly by fear of the future rather than anything else.

 

Except for the drop-dead-gorgeous part, and hanging onto men who aren't good for me (already done that with one), this describes me. I'm just not trying anymore. My whole life is screwed up, though. On the "givers and takers" thread of ptp's, I almost wrote that I sometimes think of myself as the horrible warning: "do you want to be me in ten years? No? then do what the others are advising" type of thing.

 

I never expected to feel this way in my thirties. I've had personal issues that added to it, though.

 

(I responded because I saw Elswyth's question. Sorry if this is off-topic.)

 

Oh, Anela. I hope you find happiness someday, no matter what your choices are. {{hugs}}

 

So then it's a question of HOW important marriage is to you both

 

Equally important, from what I gather. I don't think importance can be associated with urgency to have it earlier, though.

 

You have told us about his reasoning, and why he wants to wait. How does he feel about your reasoning, and that you don't?

 

I totally get that you are independent in that way. But your post *feels* as though his feelings and preferences take priority. Perhaps they don't. Perhaps it's the way it's worded and because you're explaining things to us but to me it's as though he has a larger say.

 

Yes, I think timelines should generally be dependent on the person who wants to wait. For example, if a man wants to have sex but the woman isn't ready, should she give his desires equal priority, or should she wait til she is ready? I'd vote for the latter. Of course, the man is free to leave if he is not okay with waiting for her.

 

This is probably even more important with marriage, I'd wager. Sex is a one-time done-deal - marriage is supposed to be for life. So if one party is participating in it without being fully ready, that probably wouldn't be good for the outcome of a marriage.

 

It IS a risk to leave, yes, but if the relationship you want to be in means a change in marital status now, then, to my mind, it's a bigger risk to stay.

 

Yes, quite true. I do have to weigh how important an earlier M is to me.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Elswyth

[pink_sugar]

5 years isn't too long of a time, but if marriage is something you both want, 5 years is a good time to know whether or not it's in your immediate future. My brother's fiance is almost 26, been with my brother for close to 5 years and wants to rush into pulling out her IUD because she think's she otherwise may not be able to have kids. Baloney IMO. I do understand the need for financial stability for both parties prior to marriage. I wish I had done the same thing. Good spending habits are a must. However, if you don't want kids, you don't need to "be able to support a family" if you don't plan to have one and take all the proper birth control measures.

[blindotter]

It seems like you are pretty comfortable with things as they have been established between you and your partner. It also seems like you are marginally certain that you don't want children, so there is no rush (I have a friend who waited until she was married and 32 to try to have children and now is nearly 35 and facing unforseen fertility issues, so if you have an inkling that you may want children at some point this is something to be aware of...

 

I am bicultural, half asian. My uncle who is over 50 married a woman a little older than me and had two children (back to back) who are younger than my oldest son! LOL weirdness. That being said, I can understand the cultural defense. My life experience has pointed me in the direction of "there will never be a perfect time, and if you wait for everything to be perfect it might never happen."

 

Also my asian mother is probably not a good example of her culture because she grew up during a war and often says stuff like, "Do it now, you might be dead by Christmas" in a very morbid and depressing fashion.

 

A friend of mine who is my age (33) passed away a month ago from liver failure precipitated by unexpected colon cancer which he was diagnosed with at the ripe old age of 31, so, I am of a rather morbid frame of mind myself, recently, so forgive the tone of this post if it seems depressing.

 

He had just married his longtime girlfriend last october

 

I also mention the children thing because I was pretty much not into having children until I was 28.

Edited April 1, 2013 by blindotter

[Cutiepie1976]

Yes, the matching process for residency is incredibly stressful here, too, except that it's stressful to even get into it here.

 

That has actually been a major precipitating point in my ruminations about the future. There may come a time when I may need to take a hit to my career in order to move with him (or do a LDR), because most people need to move to where the residency offer is. In that case I don't think I can or should do it without the commitment of marriage. We might also be lucky and end up in the same spot anyway with no sacrifice required, of course, in which case that wouldn't be a problem.

 

Yup! I completely agree with your thinking.

 

This is precisely why it's so stressful on those who are married or engaged. You may end up where you hope, or you might end up somewhere where your partner or both of you have to make substantial sacrifices. It's hardest when both members of the couple are going through the matching process simultaneously.

 

In the US, you have about a three-month window (almost six months if it's one of a handful of highly competitive subspecialties), between learning your fate and actually starting residency. That gives the partner a bit of time to decide definitively whether making a sacrifice is worth it. Will this be true for you where you are?

 

My advice: Do not sacrifice your career if you do not have a ring on your finger and either a legal document (preferable) or at a minimum, active plans for an agreed upon wedding date within the year of the sacrifice you are being asked to make. Do not sell yourself short and put yourself at a major disadvantage should things not work out. If you don't value yourself and your needs, do not expect your partner to spontaneously do so down the road. You will have taught him this isn't necessary or even expected when his wants are at odds with yours.

 

Should it come to having to make a sacrifice were you to join him for residency, consider an LDR, rather than taking a hit to your career. Perhaps that might even be the point to contemplate breaking up and moving on if you aren't yet engaged.

 

My bias: education and career are two things you should never sacrifice for someone who is just a boyfriend, live-in or not. Given enough time, many women who have done this come to regret their choices. If you mean that much to him, he can give you the security of marriage when asking you to give up some of your career potential and make sacrifices for him.

 

Again, you yourself aren't ready for marriage yet, so no need to discuss this with him. Just food for thought for you at this point.

 

A friend of mine is supporting her newly-wed husband in addition to paying off the house that they bought together, because he quit his job due to 'not liking it'. That isn't something I'd want to sign up for.

Nor I. Lack of responsibility, drive or some personal ambition isn't attractive to me either.

 

Asian culture doesn't typically pressure men to marry early, unfortunately. It's very acceptable and even encouraged for men to marry in their thirties.

Two questions:

1. That might be true in general, but is that true of him and his family regarding you?
   As you know, while statistics and trends are accurate in discussing a population or group, they can break down at the individual level.
    
    
   
2. Is the idea then that guys in their thirties marry women in their twenties?
   Societies have many double standards when it comes to gender. Some, however, are quite counterproductive even within a generation. I forget which Asian country, but I believe it was South Korea, where guys are really struggling to find a wife now since a generation ago, there was a very strong preference for baby boys. The gender ratio there is now so skewed (as it is in a certain age range in China), that many are forced to seek mail order brides, primarily among those of Korean descent living in Japan but elsewhere in the world as well, where those of Korean descent can be found.
   

 

You have time. Don't worry about it. I would simply observe how you work through differences, this being one of them, for now. Are you happy with the dynamic as you both try for a solution? Overall, does the balance seem fair? Do you feel good about each other after you've worked through something? If the answers are yes, he's a good potential marriage partner and you're both learning and refining the skills you'll need to thrive in married life some day. You're learning to be a better partner. You're learning what it takes to make a relationship work beyond the initial butterflies. So, even if things don't work out with him, your twenties will have been spent in a very useful and productive way for you. Trust me, what you are learning prepares you far better for your relationship goals than an endless carousel of hookups and FWBs ever will. I spent my twenties in relationships, and I am thankful for that. My relationships ended because I was unwilling to get married. Like your boyfriend, I want to accomplish certain things. I also want to experience certain life adventures, and be at a certain stage in my life before I take on the responsibilities of marriage and family. I feel I am in a much healthier place when it comes to relationships and dating as a result. I don't have the cynicism or baggage that many seem to have. Everyone is different, but my choices meant I was very careful about the guys I chose to date and, in retrospect, that really worked for me.

 

Yes, I think timelines should generally be dependent on the person who wants to wait. For example, if a man wants to have sex but the woman isn't ready, should she give his desires equal priority, or should she wait til she is ready? I'd vote for the latter. Of course, the man is free to leave if he is not okay with waiting for her.

I agree. Milestones are hit at the pace that is comfortable for the "slower" partner if the relationship is healthy and both partners value and respect each other. If the "faster" partner finds the pace unacceptable or not worthwhile, he or she can always opt out and leave.

[tbf]

Dating wasn't that big a deal in my thirties, either. Plenty of decent thirty-ish and forty-ish men who were looking for relationships. If you notice on LS, most of the guys trashing thirty-ish women are twenty-ish men. So unless you're targeting younger men, it won't be that big of a deal.

 

The above said, the ability to be financially secure is a good one but when couched in terms of supporting a family, it also can point to a subconscious need to be head of the household with children. A more traditionalist mindset that might spell trouble in the future.

 

As long as you're prepared for the possibility that marriage won't happen and are yourself financially secure, then waiting and seeing what happens is a course of action. One example of a happy ending on LS, would be allina who lived with her b/f for a number of years before getting married.