He feels he needs to be financially able to support a family before marrying?

[Els]

 

I am bicultural, half asian. My uncle who is over 50 married a woman a little older than me and had two children (back to back) who are younger than my oldest son! LOL weirdness. That being said, I can understand the cultural defense. My life experience has pointed me in the direction of "there will never be a perfect time, and if you wait for everything to be perfect it might never happen."

 

Also my asian mother is probably not a good example of her culture because she grew up during a war and often says stuff like, "Do it now, you might be dead by Christmas" in a very morbid and depressing fashion.

 

A friend of mine who is my age (33) passed away a month ago from liver failure precipitated by unexpected colon cancer which he was diagnosed with at the ripe old age of 31, so, I am of a rather morbid frame of mind myself, recently, so forgive the tone of this post if it seems depressing.

 

He had just married his longtime girlfriend last october

 

I'm so sorry to hear this, BO.

 

To be honest, I might be a very morbid person myself, but I often approach life knowing that there is never a guarantee for tomorrow. This is different from the bf, who is an investor - believes in sacrificing the now for a better tomorrow.

 

That being said, I think if I dig deep within myself, what matters most to me in a deathbed context would be the relationship in itself and the memories with loved ones, not so much marriage or lack thereof.

 

I also mention the children thing because I was pretty much not into having children until I was 28.

 

What changed your mind?

 

Yup! I completely agree with your thinking.

 

This is precisely why it's so stressful on those who are married or engaged. You may end up where you hope, or you might end up somewhere where your partner or both of you have to make substantial sacrifices. It's hardest when both members of the couple are going through the matching process simultaneously.

 

Yep. In this vein, I always found it difficult to understand how couples in which both partners were equally career-driven, manage. Seems like at one point or another, someone will need to take a career hit for the sake of the relationship.

 

In the US, you have about a three-month window (almost six months if it's one of a handful of highly competitive subspecialties), between learning your fate and actually starting residency. That gives the partner a bit of time to decide definitively whether making a sacrifice is worth it. Will this be true for you where you are?

 

Pretty much.

 

My advice: Do not sacrifice your career if you do not have a ring on your finger and either a legal document (preferable) or at a minimum, active plans for an agreed upon wedding date within the year of the sacrifice you are being asked to make. Do not sell yourself short and put yourself at a major disadvantage should things not work out. If you don't value yourself and your needs, do not expect your partner to spontaneously do so down the road. You will have taught him this isn't necessary or even expected when his wants are at odds with yours.

 

Yeah, that is my plan. Regarding the legal documents, though - there is minimal legal distinction between de facto couples and married couples in this country. Marriage is more of a social/spiritual/personal thing, from what I've observed.

 

Should it come to having to make a sacrifice were you to join him for residency, consider an LDR, rather than taking a hit to your career. Perhaps that might even be the point to contemplate breaking up and moving on if you aren't yet engaged.

 

Probably the latter. I can't stomach the thought of going through a LDR again. We did LD for 2 years out of our 5. Utterly horrible.

 

My bias: education and career are two things you should never sacrifice for someone who is just a boyfriend, live-in or not. Given enough time, many women who have done this come to regret their choices. If you mean that much to him, he can give you the security of marriage when asking you to give up some of your career potential and make sacrifices for him.

 

I agree.

 

Two questions:

[*]That might be true in general, but is that true of him and his family regarding you?

As you know, while statistics and trends are accurate in discussing a population or group, they can break down at the individual level.

 

They seem to fall within the general trend.

 

[*]Is the idea then that guys in their thirties marry women in their twenties?

 

Yep. Women are encouraged to be with older men, and vice versa.

 

You have time. Don't worry about it. I would simply observe how you work through differences, this being one of them, for now. Are you happy with the dynamic as you both try for a solution? Overall, does the balance seem fair? Do you feel good about each other after you've worked through something? If the answers are yes, he's a good potential marriage partner and you're both learning and refining the skills you'll need to thrive in married life some day. You're learning to be a better partner. You're learning what it takes to make a relationship work beyond the initial butterflies. So, even if things don't work out with him, your twenties will have been spent in a very useful and productive way for you. Trust me, what you are learning prepares you far better for your relationship goals than an endless carousel of hookups and FWBs ever will. I spent my twenties in relationships, and I am thankful for that. My relationships ended because I was unwilling to get married. Like your boyfriend, I want to accomplish certain things. I also want to experience certain life adventures, and be at a certain stage in my life before I take on the responsibilities of marriage and family. I feel I am in a much healthier place when it comes to relationships and dating as a result. I don't have the cynicism or baggage that many seem to have. Everyone is different, but my choices meant I was very careful about the guys I chose to date and, in retrospect, that really worked for me.

 

That's a great way of looking at things. I certainly agree, though I guess I'm hoping that won't be necessary, because this R has been amazing thus far.

[Els]

Dating wasn't that big a deal in my thirties, either. Plenty of decent thirty-ish and forty-ish men who were looking for relationships. If you notice on LS, most of the guys trashing thirty-ish women are twenty-ish men. So unless you're targeting younger men, it won't be that big of a deal.

 

Yes, generally twenty-ish and inexperienced/bitter men, as Cutie mentioned. Great points, both of you.

 

The above said, the ability to be financially secure is a good one but when couched in terms of supporting a family, it also can point to a subconscious need to be head of the household with children. A more traditionalist mindset that might spell trouble in the future.

 

I know that he has traditional views on a few things, this included, while being more modern in other ways. All of that is fine with me.

 

As long as you're prepared for the possibility that marriage won't happen and are yourself financially secure, then waiting and seeing what happens is a course of action. One example of a happy ending on LS, would be allina who lived with her b/f for a number of years before getting married.

 

At the risk of derailing my own thread - I miss allina. Hope all's well with her.

[xxoo]

How does he feel about the prospect of having a LDR again?

 

How does he feel about you moving with him as a gf only?

 

I would think that he would be conflicted about those options, too, and that may influence his stance about marriage. Things are rarely black and white; is his position on this really that black and white?

[Els]

How does he feel about the prospect of having a LDR again?

 

He minds LDRs less than I do, for sure.

 

How does he feel about you moving with him as a gf only?

 

I don't think he would ask me to move if I didn't want to. He would talk about a compromise where he tries to postpone the start of his residency to wait for me to be able to move, etc.

 

I would think that he would be conflicted about those options, too, and that may influence his stance about marriage. Things are rarely black and white; is his position on this really that black and white?

 

To be honest, all this (him getting residency in a place where I will have to sacrifice to move to) is a very hypothetical situation that may or may not happen, so... I'm not sure. I don't think anything can be black and white in that circumstance.

 

How do you mean the bolded?

[xxoo]

I mean, even if he isn't personally bothered by LDR, he has to know how hard it was on you. No? That doesn't concern him?

 

So even though he has this ideal about marriage, he is in a real situation with a real woman he loves who has real concerns. He could lose her. That doesn't make him question his position at all?

[Els]

I mean, even if he isn't personally bothered by LDR, he has to know how hard it was on you. No? That doesn't concern him?

 

So even though he has this ideal about marriage, he is in a real situation with a real woman he loves who has real concerns. He could lose her. That doesn't make him question his position at all?

 

Most of our conversation on residency has been vague at best, as it is hypothetical - he isn't even able to apply until at least 2 years from now (and that's assuming he got all his requirements done in minimal time).

 

I admit I don't know what he will decide when or if the actual time comes. Given that the last time we were faced with the prospect of LDR (about a year ago), he chose to postpone his career move so we could remain together, I'm guessing my fear of LDRs does concern him, yes. Residency may be a different kettle of fish, though.

 

Do you feel I should have a detailed conversation with him now about this? It felt a little like jumping the gun to me, since I figured lots could happen in 2 years.

[xxoo]

Do you feel I should have a detailed conversation with him now about this? It felt a little like jumping the gun to me, since I figured lots could happen in 2 years.

 

In general, I think most people who post threads on LS should be having detailed conversations with their SO about it instead.

 

Yes, if it were me, I'd talk it all out. I'd tell him my hopes, fears, and desires--spill it all. You've been together a long time! It's not jumping the gun to talk openly about all the possibilities, imo.

[Els]

I definitely agree about the most people and conversation bit.

 

The reason I am wary about the detailed conversation about hypotheticals is that we overdid that a bit previously (when you're in a LDR, lots of hypotheticals out there...). We talked exhaustively and worried and stressed ourselves out over possible issues and disagreements in the hypothetical future. As it turns out, none of them turned out the way we'd expected them to. In addition to that, I feel that he is generally bad with talking about hypotheticals. When the situation is actually at hand, his responses are very different from when it is hypothetical.

[blindotter]

I'm so sorry to hear this, BO.

 

To be honest, I might be a very morbid person myself, but I often approach life knowing that there is never a guarantee for tomorrow. This is different from the bf, who is an investor - believes in sacrificing the now for a better tomorrow.

 

That being said, I think if I dig deep within myself, what matters most to me in a deathbed context would be the relationship in itself and the memories with loved ones, not so much marriage or lack thereof.

 

What changed your mind?

 

Yes, wrt marriage I am in agreement with you, but I am also highly unconventional because I don't really believe in the institution of marriage as it stands. I believe that choosing every day to be with someone is the important factor, and having been married and divorced already the idea of marriage conveying anything to a relationship has been kind of erased for me. But to be fair a lot of sociocultural traditions make no sense to me. Color me aspergers, teehee. My family stopped asking me when I would get married after I got divorced, nyuck nyuck nyuck.

 

What changed my mind? I dunno, really. My Dad passed away is the only thing that comes to mind that really changed. It was a life changing, soul-searing event for me because my Dad was really my rock and without him to anchor me I was set adrift on the sea of existential crisis.

 

Having my oldest son changed me in so many ways, deeply challenging ways. Ways I would not have been capable of seeking out on my own. I sometimes think, I prayed for a guide, a teacher, and he is the answer to that prayer. Sorry for the rambling, philosophical answer.

 

The person I was at 26 and the person I am now are two entirely different people. I don't know that I would even enjoy hanging out with the 26 year old me, now

[xxoo]

I definitely agree about the most people and conversation bit.

 

The reason I am wary about the detailed conversation about hypotheticals is that we overdid that a bit previously (when you're in a LDR, lots of hypotheticals out there...). We talked exhaustively and worried and stressed ourselves out over possible issues and disagreements in the hypothetical future. As it turns out, none of them turned out the way we'd expected them to. In addition to that, I feel that he is generally bad with talking about hypotheticals. When the situation is actually at hand, his responses are very different from when it is hypothetical.

 

I don't want to talk you into it if you don't think it would be productive. You'd know better than I would know.

 

But maybe it would go differently because you are together, and not LD. And maybe you could use the practice, as a couple

[Els]

Yes, wrt marriage I am in agreement with you, but I am also highly unconventional because I don't really believe in the institution of marriage as it stands. I believe that choosing every day to be with someone is the important factor, and having been married and divorced already the idea of marriage conveying anything to a relationship has been kind of erased for me. But to be fair a lot of sociocultural traditions make no sense to me. Color me aspergers, teehee. My family stopped asking me when I would get married after I got divorced, nyuck nyuck nyuck.

 

What changed my mind? I dunno, really. My Dad passed away is the only thing that comes to mind that really changed. It was a life changing, soul-searing event for me because my Dad was really my rock and without him to anchor me I was set adrift on the sea of existential crisis.

 

Having my oldest son changed me in so many ways, deeply challenging ways. Ways I would not have been capable of seeking out on my own. I sometimes think, I prayed for a guide, a teacher, and he is the answer to that prayer. Sorry for the rambling, philosophical answer.

 

The person I was at 26 and the person I am now are two entirely different people. I don't know that I would even enjoy hanging out with the 26 year old me, now

 

Yeah, this is something that I've pondered as well. I think that some people do change their minds about children in their 20s and maybe even 30s. In that case, what happens if you're married, you change your mind, and your partner doesn't? Or what happens if your mind changes when you're past the optimal fertility years?

 

I guess I still think it's not a great idea to have children to preempt that. I genuinely don't feel any desire for them at the moment, and I think desire for children is a very important precursor to the maternal instinct, ie the ability to love and sacrifice for one's children.

 

I don't want to talk you into it if you don't think it would be productive. You'd know better than I would know.

 

But maybe it would go differently because you are together, and not LD. And maybe you could use the practice, as a couple

 

I always appreciate your advice, xxoo. I'll consider doing what you said if the issue bugs me again. Separating out the anxious thoughts from the real issues at hand has been something that I've been striving to do personally, in dealing with my anxiety issues.

[pink_sugar]

I think the majority of healthy women can go on to have kids until their late thirties or early forties. There are some exceptions, but I'd never rush into having kids because of something that may not happen. My brother's fiance is almost 26 and thinks she needs to rush into having kids before 30 because she's worried about not being able to have them. I'd rather not have kids than bring them into a situation in which I was not financially or emotionally ready for them.

[Eternal Sunshine]

You seem to be onto a good thing here Els.

 

As for being 30+ and single, personally, I was much bigger wreck when I was dating in my 20s. My long dry spells are because I know what I want in a man/relationship now and I don't waste time with the wrong ones.

 

So my issues posted on LS don't really stem from my age, but rather from being me

[Els]

I think the majority of healthy women can go on to have kids until their late thirties or early forties. There are some exceptions, but I'd never rush into having kids because of something that may not happen. My brother's fiance is almost 26 and thinks she needs to rush into having kids before 30 because she's worried about not being able to have them. I'd rather not have kids than bring them into a situation in which I was not financially or emotionally ready for them.

 

Yes. A thousand times yes.

 

I see some kids raised by parents who are clearly not ready to be having kids because they can't even take care of themselves, and it's painful to watch.

 

You seem to be onto a good thing here Els.

 

As for being 30+ and single, personally, I was much bigger wreck when I was dating in my 20s. My long dry spells are because I know what I want in a man/relationship now and I don't waste time with the wrong ones.

 

So my issues posted on LS don't really stem from my age, but rather from being me

 

Thanks, ES. I definitely agree that there's something to be said for experience and maturity (which tend to increase with age).

[january2011]

From my experience, it's easy for women in their early 20s to get lulled into a false sense of security, especially if you are in an LTR, that you will automatically move through the standard lifescript with your partner:

 

graduate college --> get a good job --> LTR-->move in together/buy your own house --> get married --> have kids

 

If you want to get married (and have kids) then you need to prioritise this, because your partner may not do it for you - since mindreading has not been proven to exist. Take charge of your own fertility (even if you are not sure if having kids is in your future) - see a doctor and get tested. Do your research and find out what you need to do if you might someday/maybe have kids.

 

Some guys say that they need X before they can get married but really it's a delaying tactic to buy time. What they need is to feel right (however that looks). It could be that they need to feel right about you/themselves/the relationship. But just because they give you a tangible reason for why they are not ready, it doesn't mean that once they've achieved X, they will propose. You could wait until X is achieved and be ready to have another talk with him. But how will you feel if he tells you that he is still not ready and this time he needs Y? Will you walk or will you keep placing your bets on him hoping to hit the jackpot of feeling right?

 

Right now, you can talk about this cheerfully, but there might come a time when you do not feel cheerful about this. I strongly suggest that you nip things in the bud before your relationship hits that point. Especially if all around you people are getting hitched and popping babies. And your family and friends keep asking when it's your turn. You will get sick of pretending that everything is okay when it's not. The pressure to be seen to be "moving on" with your life may then become unbearable and send you into a paroxysm of self-doubt/disappointment/jealousy/sadness - even if you are usually the most sane rational and intelligent woman in your group.

 

It's not your fault - this is the societal norm, especially in traditional cultures. As women, we are not "worthy" until a guy chooses us through marriage. Then we seal our "worthiness" by having babies. I'm still perplexed about why in this day and age "having a career" (for example) doesn't give us an equal measure of "worthiness." I suspect we are still trying to shake off 20th century values about men being breadwinners and women being homemakers.

 

This means that women who hit the tail-end of fertility/marriageable age tend to be viewed with suspicion and a modicum of pity. No matter how far we think we've come in eradicating outmoded attitudes, we can still come across as very judgemental, even if we do not intend any malice. There is a reason why some fight for gay marriage rights. Marriage is the standard state for partnership in many countries, legally, emotionally, and spiritually.

 

You've made a good start by having sane discussions about how you feel and your boyfriend has told you where his head is regarding marriage. If you think that the relationship will reach the conclusion that you want, then it is worth tabling the discussion for another year or two.

 

However, if you are not engaged with a date set for the wedding when you hit 30, cut your losses and move on or move out. In your 30s, if marriage is your goal and is more important than staying with your current partner, then only date guys who are marriage-minded and whose life goals match yours. In your 30s, you don't have as much time to work with him to get him there if he's not there already, especially if kids are on your agenda when you hit 30.

 

If you'd like to read some background research on your dilemma, google "why some men marry some women and not others" and "sliding vs deciding" (TedTalk).

[Els]

January: I think you make lots of good points. Regarding society, though, do you feel it is a good idea to allow societal views to shape what we decide to do with our lives? I know most people do, but personally I don't feel like it's a great idea. We have to live with the consequences of our choices, not society.

 

I do agree with you that a double standard exists re: women and marriage, and it sucks. It is in fact this double standard that leads to the complaints amongst guys of women wanting marriage more than a man she truly loves - can't really blame the women alone for that.

[january2011]

January: I think you make lots of good points. Regarding society, though, do you feel it is a good idea to allow societal views to shape what we decide to do with our lives? I know most people do, but personally I don't feel like it's a great idea. We have to live with the consequences of our choices, not society.

 

I do agree with you that a double standard exists re: women and marriage, and it sucks. It is in fact this double standard that leads to the complaints amongst guys of women wanting marriage more than a man she truly loves - can't really blame the women alone for that.

 

I don't think it's a good idea/bad idea per se. I merely acknowledge that the pressure exists and even those who normally don't succumb can find that they are still impacted by its effects, no matter which path they choose to take.

 

Otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned that you and your boyfriend are East Asian.

[Els]

 

Some guys say that they need X before they can get married but really it's a delaying tactic to buy time. What they need is to feel right (however that looks). It could be that they need to feel right about you/themselves/the relationship. But just because they give you a tangible reason for why they are not ready, it doesn't mean that once they've achieved X, they will propose. You could wait until X is achieved and be ready to have another talk with him. But how will you feel if he tells you that he is still not ready and this time he needs Y? Will you walk or will you keep placing your bets on him hoping to hit the jackpot of feeling right?

 

Oops, forgot to address this point. I think that if that happens, I will probably walk, as much as I'd hate to. We'd be in our early 30s at that point and there is nothing else that could reasonably require waiting for.

 

I don't honestly think he'd even be in a R with me if he didn't feel right about our relationship/me at this point of time (as opposed to feeling right about making the lifetime commitment of marriage at this point of time). I don't think this is the typical 'milk sans cow buying' relationship - he is investing a lot into it of his own accord. Living expenses, the limited free time that he has from 70-hour work weeks, sponsorship for a partner visa. If he didn't see a future in it, it would be pretty silly and illogical of him to do so - and he's far from silly and illogical.

 

As for the 'jackpot' - I honestly think finding him in itself was the jackpot. I am not an easy person to live with, and I have several rather unusual requirements for men. He's the only man I have ever met (and I've met quite many) whom I think fulfills all of that and is compatible with me in every other way. That isn't to say I feel I'm doomed to eternal spinsterhood if I leave; simply that I don't think what we have is easily replaceable by someone else who is willing to give me marriage more quickly. Simply utilizing statistics, I have met one of him in 11 years after 16. So perhaps another 11 years to find another?

[january2011]

Elswyth, I come from a place where it didn't work out and I was in a very similar position to you, including meeting in our early 20s and the unusual requirements - we even bought a house and were as intertwined as two people could be who weren't married.

 

But it still ended, in my 30s.

 

That is not to say that my experience will be your experience. I just hope that you can be savvier than I was and more resolute in sticking to your goals rather than spending your youth waiting on someone who ultimately won't give you what you want because he's chasing a feeling.

 

I don't know your BF, so I can only assume the best and that it will all work out just fine. Though it is still worth setting your timeline, for you. You know what you want, so you need to make sure that you get it. With marriage (and kids), it's either a yes or a no, can't really go back once you've done either.

Edited April 6, 2013 by january2011

[Els]

I don't think it's a good idea/bad idea per se. I merely acknowledge that the pressure exists and even those who normally don't succumb can find that they are still impacted by its effects, no matter which path they choose to take.

 

Otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned that you and your boyfriend are East Asian.

 

Oh, definitely. I think the East Asian bit was to explain why he is so caught up in finances, but your point is still very valid.

 

One thing I have decided, though, is that I cannot let society choose my life's path for me. I will do what is best for ME and my happiness, not what society expects. Because I thought about it, and realized I'd be terribly unhappy if I'd done what East Asian society had expected me to thus far. I'd probably be working full-time in a job I hated to help pay off our insane housing and car bills, coming back to do the lion's share of the housework and caring for the children whom I don't want but we had to have to carry on the family's name. My husband would probably be coming back from work at 11pm because he is expected to earn more than me and all high-earning jobs in our homeland require insane long hours. We would scream at each other in frustration and hate our lives, but unable to leave because divorce wouldn't be an option. Our parents would be living in close proximity to us (or with us) and constantly telling us what we should be doing with regards to our kids, house, and marriage.

 

I've already taken a few turns in my life that have been frowned upon by East Asian society - migrating to a Caucasian country, not desiring to adhere to my ethnic rituals and traditions, switching out from a highly-respected bachelor's degree to do grad studies in a completely different and less-respected field that I love. All of them have turned out for the better. I love my life now.

 

I guess it wouldn't hurt to add marriage to that list, huh?

 

Elswyth, I come from a place where it didn't work out and I was in a very similar position to you, including meeting in our early 20s and the unusual requirements - we even bought a house and were as intertwined as two people could be who weren't married.

 

But it still ended, in my 30s.

 

That is not to say that my experience will be your experience. I just hope that you can be savvier than I was and more resolute in sticking to your goals rather than spending your youth waiting on someone who ultimately won't give you what you want because he's chasing a feeling.

 

I don't know your BF, so I can only assume the best and that it will all work out just fine. Though it is still worth setting your timeline, for you.

 

I'm terribly sorry to hear your R didn't work out. Do you feel that it would have been different if he had decided to marry you earlier?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Elswyth

[january2011]

One thing I have decided, though, is that I cannot let society choose my life's path for me. I will do what is best for ME and my happiness, not what society expects. Because I thought about it, and realized I'd be terribly unhappy if I'd done what East Asian society had expected me to thus far. I'd probably be working full-time in a job I hated to help pay off our insane housing and car bills, coming back to do the lion's share of the housework and caring for the children whom I don't want but we had to have to carry on the family's name. My husband would probably be coming back from work at 11pm because he is expected to earn more than me and all high-earning jobs in our homeland require insane long hours. We would scream at each other in frustration and hate our lives, but unable to leave because divorce wouldn't be an option. Our parents would be living in close proximity to us (or with us) and constantly telling us what we should be doing with regards to our kids, house, and marriage.

 

I've already taken a few turns in my life that have been frowned upon by East Asian society - migrating to a Caucasian country, not desiring to adhere to my ethnic rituals and traditions, switching out from a highly-respected bachelor's degree to do grad studies in a completely different and less-respected field that I love. All of them have turned out for the better. I love my life now.

 

I guess it wouldn't hurt to add marriage to that list, huh?

 

Elswyth, you hold onto that attitude and don't let go. It is that attitude that will get you through no matter how many curve balls life will throw at you.

 

I'm terribly sorry to hear your R didn't work out. Do you feel that it would have been different if he had decided to marry you earlier?

 

Thank you, but it's okay. I'm in another relationship now and we are getting to that point, which is why I understand where you are coming from in some respects.

 

With regard to your question, yes, if my previous SO had decided to marry me earlier, it would have been different. Unfortunately, when he finally got round to it, he'd missed his window and I'd already started the slide into resentment. So, I refused him. With hindsight, there were many moments where either of us should have pulled the plug. If I were to regret one thing, it would be that we didn't break up sooner. Ah, hindsight.

 

So, yes, don't wait until it goes bad. If you can see that it's not going to work out in terms of having shared life goals, don't let it drag on. Do the kind thing and let him go.