Will there be a physical war against Christ when he returns?

[M30USA]

This is a concept I've been pondering for quite some time. I'll start off by saying that there is a clear, unequivocal point in the Bible that Christ's return will not be welcomed (Rev 1:7). This is because Christians, at that point, will already have been taken/raptured and therefore the remaining people on earth will be his enemies.

 

So what will the nature of this final war be?

 

First, it seems that it will be "in heaven" with resulting effects on the earth. "Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back." (Rev 12:7). Anyone who studies the Bible knows that the term "heavens" can either mean the spiritual heaven (kindgom of heaven) or the literal, physical area outside the earth. In this case, most of the commentaries I've read suggest that this verse refers to the literal, phsyical heaven outside earth (what we would call "space").

 

Second, we know that it will occur right on the brink of time when Israel, the nation, is about to get completely annihiliated by its enemies. At this point, Christ will touch down upon the Mount of Olives (the same exact place he left when he ascended). Again, this hints at the physical reality of the event.

 

Third, we know that not only will the angels be with Christ when he returns, but believers will be as well! This point often gets overlooked by readers. Not only does it show that Christ's second coming will occur after the rapture (by an unspecified period of time), but once again it continues to hint at the physical, real nature of this all. As surely as you and I, as believers, are here in the body right now, we will be here in the body with Christ when he returns. And remember his exit was an ascension, therefore his return will be a descent.

 

The main confusion I've always had on this subject is how the heck the world will actually think it can stand against Christ. Will they actually believe they can win? It almost makes you wonder. Just as the nations, today and in the past, have plotted against God, it will all culminate in a final battle against him. So they obviously at least must THINK (even if incorrectly) that they stand a chance!

 

"Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and his annointed..." (Psalm 2:1-2)

 

This leads me to my main point. Because the nations will obviously think they stand a chance against God at his return, and because we know from the Bible that it will be a physical war, this means that the nations at the time must possess some pretty devastating, high-tech weaponry.

 

In what fashion will this weaponry possibly be used against Christ at his return? Since we know Christ will descent with the angels and saints in physical form, we can conclude that, just like a space shuttle, we must literally pass through the atmosphere. This could be the site at which Christ is opposed. Humans are currently developing technology to turn the ionosphere (a layer of the atmosphere) into a literal electromagnetic weapon which covers the earth completely. If you don't believe me look this up. We are finding how to use the natural ionosphere as a weapon or "shield" around earth. Additionally, consider the weaponizing of space as a whole. What is the idea behind this? We have been told several conflicting stories by our government in the last 50 years about the purpose of weaponizing space. First it was to protect against Soviets. Next it was to protect against terrorists. What will be next? Who is the real enemy?

 

"The nations of the world will have to unite, for the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the earth must someday make a common front against an attack by people from other planets."

-General Douglas MacArthur

 

Who are these "people from other planets"?

 

The same sentiment was even echoed recently by Ronald Reagan. Why would such high level people even lightly be suggesting this if there wasn't some truth to it?

 

The scariest part, in my opinion, is not that such an event will happen, but rather that the earth will be deceived into actually thinking that Christ is the real enemy! I mean we know for a fact that Christ is definitely returning to judge the world. Even though he is our messiah and God, the world will know they are in for destruction and therefore Christ will be the "invading enemy". I can just see it now. I am also convinced that, at the highest level of world government (whoever is in real control), there is awareness of these truths. Are we not told that Satan has dominion over the nations? Are we not told that fallen angels are the unseen controllers of nations? How hard would it be for them to contact people at the highest level and secretly prepare them for what is soon taking place? I am convinved our government has at least some idea that the future return of Christ is a reality and, while they won't use the religious context names, they know the principle is true and is coming regardless. This is why, in my opinion, we are seeing the weaponization of space and the conversion of earth's ionosphere as a worldwide shield barrier.

 

The only option to end time event interpretation in the Bible is a literal one. Even Isaac Newton said so. Therefore, I think it's completely reasonable to believe that such "conspiracy theories" as the one I've laid out here are at the very least possible. If not, someone should present their own idea of how there will be a real war at the end against Christ? What other possibility is there?

Edited April 6, 2013 by M30USA

[OpenBook]

I can't claim to understand Revelation or try to guess exactly how the end times will unfold or if I'll even be around for it. I just pray that if I am here when it happens, God will give me enough discernment to make the right call.

[todreaminblue]

Between the conception

And the creation

Between the emotion

And the response

Falls the Shadow

Life is very long

Between the desire

And the spasm

Between the potency

And the existence

Between the essence

And the descent

Falls the Shadow

For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is

Life is

For Thine is the

 

This is the way the world ends

This is the way the world ends

This is the way the world ends

Not with a bang but a whimper.

T.S. ELIOT

 

 

I think when the time comes the awesome power of all of heavens glory, the earth will end with a whimper, the evil and corrupt will bow, and grovel and it will be over...... with a whimper...... Gods domain and understanding fo what will be is too much for this retarded brain.....i believe god is all powerful a fight staged against god and his infinite wisdom knowledge power and grace would be over before it began........he made the world ......he didnt need a hammer or a nail or a bucket to fill the oceans.......he doesn't need weaponry i would think to fight a war....just his word which is infinite.....god is perfection ....all loving.....all knowing....all seeing future past and present.....that's why i believe it would end with a whimper......deb

[M30USA]

For those who think prophecy is not important, I guess 20% of the Bible is unimportant--because 20% of the Bible is prophecy. God absolutely wants us to consider these things. In fact the book of Revelation is the only book which says that the reader is "blessed". I suggest to everyone that understanding prophecy has the purpose of reducing the chance you will be deceived when the time comes. And since Jesus' main admonition concerning end times was "be not deceived", I think my thread serves a worthwhile purpose.

[M30USA]

T.S. ELIOT

 

 

I think when the time comes the awesome power of all of heavens glory, the earth will end with a whimper, the evil and corrupt will bow, and grovel and it will be over...... with a whimper...... Gods domain and understanding fo what will be is too much for this retarded brain.....i believe god is all powerful a fight staged against god and his infinite wisdom knowledge power and grace would be over before it began........he made the world ......he didnt need a hammer or a nail or a bucket to fill the oceans.......he doesn't need weaponry i would think to fight a war....just his word which is infinite.....god is perfection ....all loving.....all knowing....all seeing future past and present.....that's why i believe it would end with a whimper......deb

 

Okay that's poetic but the fact is Jesus said he will return to judge the earth with fire.

[pureinheart]

For those who think prophecy is not important, I guess 20% of the Bible is unimportant--because 20% of the Bible is prophecy. God absolutely wants us to consider these things. In fact the book of Revelation is the only book which says that the reader is "blessed". I suggest to everyone that understanding prophecy has the purpose of reducing the chance you will be deceived when the time comes. And since Jesus' main admonition concerning end times was "be not deceived", I think my thread serves a worthwhile purpose.

 

This is my most favorite/interesting subject. The Book of Revelation was the first book of the Bible that I read inside and out after becoming saved. Prophecy is important IMO to understand.

 

The religious leaders missed Jesus because they didn't understand all of the prophetic "clues" contained n many books of the O/T, although that would be for another thread.

 

I think it's important to understand all of the prophetic writings concerning End Times...there's a lot of them but want to touch on one at a time.

 

Ezekiel 38- I haven't completely studied this link, but it does give an understanding of where we are at today- funny how the daily news coincides with Bible Prophecy as of late. Please use your own discernment with this link:

 

Bible Prophecy - Russia, Iran, Turkey and Allies Against Israel

 

Concerning OP- Answer to the title ...yes, I believe there will be a ground war...now you have sparked some re-thinking on what I've learned, or shall I say, "added to". The "Shuttle" concept really has me thinking. Wondering if when Jesus/us cracks the clouds, will that be where the war starts with Jesus/us.

 

Also read every prophetic book I could get my hands on and studied under Hal Lindsey for a really long time (went to his church and everything).

 

Hal Lindsey has also written many books that tie in Bible prophecy with current events. My favorite book was, "There's a New World Coming", which gives great insight into what John "saw" when he was taken up into the third heaven- I believe John used the terms that he could relate to as he was viewing the Second Coming. I think Hal Lindsey under the guidance of the Spirit did an excellent job of interpretation- Hal is also very fluent in Greek and Hebrew.

 

Can you imagine John seeing what was to come???? I think this is also important to understand- God showed some Apostles/Prophets the End Times- They saw this stuff with their lifestyles and understanding... I'd be trippin if I'd never seen an airplane and then saw an F-117 (retired lawn dart...lol), F-22 or a B-2...wow or ABL in operation!

 

 

There ya go M30...

 

The Apostle John had to be trippin!

[pureinheart]

I can't claim to understand Revelation or try to guess exactly how the end times will unfold or if I'll even be around for it. I just pray that if I am here when it happens, God will give me enough discernment to make the right call.

 

 

OB, The Book of Revelation is dfficult to understand as John was interpreting what he saw with his current day knowledge, and he worded it as such in most cases.

 

Bold- this would depend on your beliefs concerning the Rapture.

 

Two other things that I wanted to make sure of in my heart through study was the time of the Rapture and salvation (once saved always saved).

 

I am thuroughly convinced that the Rapture takes place shortly before the Trib...also am convinced that once a person is actually saved, they cannot "loose" their salvation.

 

So with this, it appears you already made the right call:D

[wuggle]

This is because Christians, at that point, will already have been taken/raptured and therefore the remaining people on earth will be his enemies.

 

So everyone who is not a christian is an enemy of god ?

 

Second, we know that it will occur right on the brink of time when Israel, the nation, is about to get completely annihiliated by its enemies

 

So this was 2 thousand years ago by the Romans, right ?

 

Third, we know that not only will the angels be with Christ when he returns, but believers will be as well!

 

So all those poor christians who just raptured and expected to spend eternity at the right hand of god now find out that they have to go back to earth to kill all the muslims, jews, buddhists etc ? seems a bit unfair ? not only were they expecting a nice retirement but now they have to commit murder ? what if the people they have to kill were thier friends ?

 

This leads me to my main point. Because the nations will obviously think they stand a chance against God at his return, and because we know from the Bible that it will be a physical war, this means that the nations at the time must possess some pretty devastating, high-tech weaponry.

 

But surely an omnipotent God who created all matter in six days would just make the weapons cease to be ?

 

Humans are currently developing technology to turn the ionosphere (a layer of the atmosphere) into a literal electromagnetic weapon which covers the earth completely.

 

Highlander 2 - really bad movie !

 

The scariest part, in my opinion, is not that such an event will happen, but rather that the earth will be deceived into actually thinking that Christ is the real enemy! I mean we know for a fact that Christ is definitely returning to judge the world. Even though he is our messiah and God, the world will know they are in for destruction and therefore Christ will be the "invading enemy". I can just see it now. I am also convinced that, at the highest level of world government (whoever is in real control), there is awareness of these truths. Are we not told that Satan has dominion over the nations? Are we not told that fallen angels are the unseen controllers of nations? How hard would it be for them to contact people at the highest level and secretly prepare them for what is soon taking place? I am convinved our government has at least some idea that the future return of Christ is a reality and, while they won't use the religious context names, they know the principle is true and is coming regardless. This is why, in my opinion, we are seeing the weaponization of space and the conversion of earth's ionosphere as a worldwide shield barrier.

 

X-Files really wasn't any better than highlander 2 !

 

What other possibility is there?

 

How about this, the bible is a 2000+ year old book containing stories that have been manipulated from generation to generation, sometimes deliberately, sometimes not, to pander to man's natural egotistical belief that there must be some meaning to his existance (other than the advancement of the species through evolution). It should not be taken literally, let alone confused with popular sci-fi ideas and 21st century culture.

 

Do you really believe that an omnipotent god would give a monkeys about any of this ? do you think an omnipotent god gives a toss if someone is a christian, jew muslim ? Do you really believe that an omnipotent god woudl fight a war against his own creation using space ? - time, space and matter do not concern an omnipotent god.

 

You are being foolish and wasting your time.

 

Go out and have a beer ! or see a good movie , how about premetheus ?

[OpenBook]

Two other things that I wanted to make sure of in my heart through study was the time of the Rapture and salvation (once saved always saved).

 

I am thuroughly convinced that the Rapture takes place shortly before the Trib...also am convinced that once a person is actually saved, they cannot "loose" their salvation.

 

So with this, it appears you already made the right call

 

I sure hope you're right PIH.

[M30USA]

Again...anyone with extensive biblical knowledge care to comment?

[pie2]

Sorry, M30...no extensive knowledge of the bible.

 

But then again, many very studied religious leaders thought they had the who/where/how of Christ's first coming down pat. They were wrong.

 

These matters are above our understanding. I agree that it's best to be as prepared as possible. But preparation comes more through prayer, and less through our "intelligence".

[amaysngrace]

Again...anyone with extensive biblical knowledge care to comment?

 

Agree. It's very disrespectful what they are all doing.

 

You can certainly tell they aren't Christian.

[pie2]

Agree. It's very disrespectful what they are all doing.

 

You can certainly tell they aren't Christian.

 

 

?

[M30USA]

Sorry, M30...no extensive knowledge of the bible.

 

But then again, many very studied religious leaders thought they had the who/where/how of Christ's first coming down pat. They were wrong.

 

These matters are above our understanding. I agree that it's best to be as prepared as possible. But preparation comes more through prayer, and less through our "intelligence".

 

I see your point, but there is still a reason why we have the book of Revelation. If it were just a matter of prayer (which is definitely important) and nothing else, there would be no prophecy in the Bible. The Pharisees, scribes and Jews did not miss the prophecies because they were unstudied, but rather because their hearts were in the wrong place. The wise men who saw Christ's star knew the prophecies and their hearts were in the right place. That's why they knew what was up when everyone else was business as usual.

[pie2]

I see your point, but there is still a reason why we have the book of Revelation. If it were just a matter of prayer (which is definitely important) and nothing else, there would be no prophecy in the Bible. The Pharisees, scribes and Jews did not miss the prophecies because they were unstudied, but rather because their hearts were in the wrong place. The wise men who saw Christ's star knew the prophecies and their hearts were in the right place. That's why they knew what was up when everyone else was business as usual.

 

Yeah, I agree. Revelations is definitely a guide, and I appreciate the book (for the little I know about it). I just think it's dangerous to think we will have it all figured out.

[Feelin Frisky]

If you consider yourself a serious Chistian instead of what flys for one these days it would be instant clear that Jesus Christ isn't coming back because he never left. What made him special was no magic supernatural powers, it was his humanity, his conviction, his courage, and fellowship of empathy and love. If he want to be "worshipped" as a "god" he would have flown out of the sky on a golden chariot--of 1968 Chrysler Imperial--or w/e grand vehicle that impresses you most. But his story was one of humble origins and subtle messages that all have to do with messages about people and there value for each other. The Romans co-opted this religion in the 5th Century and turned it upside down with phony stories of miracles where they turned Jesus into the new "golden calf". You want to find Jesus, first you have to rid yourself of all that hand-me-down poison and then get off you knees and get on the ball. Jesus is irrelevant. It's the holy spirit of universal love that comes from within that can deliver us, not some silly douche bag story of Christ and anti Christ doing double-talk battles. Believing that junk is how people manipulate you into doing nothing while bad people do their worst.

[todreaminblue]

Okay that's poetic but the fact is Jesus said he will return to judge the earth with fire.

 

that could also be open to interpretation could be symbolic, a metaphor, god knows though I dont, and thank you for posting I hadnt read that about the fire bit..........i mainly worried about whatever happens when judgement day comes i have done my thing my purpose my reason for being here sufficiently and with enough grace and humility that i might be judged not wanting fro what is required that i be let live with god....how he judges e isnt as much a concern for me....as me living life the way he wants me too...ill face the consequences whether fiery or symbolic....whether a whimper or a bang...when that time comes...until then...ill keep hope in my heart , god welcomes me upon that mercy seat.......deb

[TheFinalWord]

The main confusion I've always had on this subject is how the heck the world will actually think it can stand against Christ. Will they actually believe they can win? It almost makes you wonder. Just as the nations, today and in the past, have plotted against God, it will all culminate in a final battle against him. So they obviously at least must THINK (even if incorrectly) that they stand a chance!

 

Based on the actions I see in this world, literally nothing surprises me. Right now we have a half-dozen insane dictators with nuclear weapons. One at the moment thinks he can conquer the entire planet. So yeah...but biblically, the same case could be made for Israel seeing God's miracles and still rejecting Him, everyone seeing Jesus' miracles and still doubting, etc.

 

One thing that is very important to remember about the Great Tribulation is that it is God's final attempt to bring mankind to Himself. More people will get saved during this time, than throughout all of history.

 

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

So, I do not believe it will be the government convincing people it is aliens invading. The whole purpose is so that people will turn to God and for Christ to set up his kingdom. It will be clear to people that they have a last chance to choose God. You can read more about the two great witnesses and the 144k.

 

This leads me to my main point. Because the nations will obviously think they stand a chance against God at his return, and because we know from the Bible that it will be a physical war, this means that the nations at the time must possess some pretty devastating, high-tech weaponry.

 

All nations will come to destroy Israel. When it appears Israel is at its last end, they will cry out to Christ and He will save them (they also which pierced Him: Rev. 1:7). They are not explicitly coming to "fight Christ". Just like multiple times in history, Israel will be seen as a target to be destroyed. This time, all nations will join together against Israel.

 

A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

 

Check out 2 Chronicles 2.

Edited April 7, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[M30USA]

Good post, TFW. But what about the verse which says "and there was war in heaven"? Do you interpret that as a spiritual war?

[M30USA]

If you consider yourself a serious Chistian instead of what flys for one these days it would be instant clear that Jesus Christ isn't coming back because he never left.

 

Angels speaking:

 

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11)

 

This has always, to me, set the stage for the return of Christ. We are told here that his return will be in the exact manner as his departure. What you will notice if you read the final chapters of the Gospels is that he had witnesses physically touch his body, so that rules out the idea of him being merely a spirit when he left. Additionally, did you read how the men of Galilee were "looking into the sky"? I believe this is quite literal. And the same will happen when we see him return in the sky.

[TheFinalWord]

Good post, TFW. But what about the verse which says "and there was war in heaven"? Do you interpret that as a spiritual war?

 

Yeah I see this is satan cast out of the heavens, spiritually speaking.

 

One thing about spiritual warfare, is that is often presented in a way that we can understand. However, we have very little applicable knowledge of how this realm operates.

 

We are often given metaphors, such as put on the armor of God or use the sword of the spirit, to affect the spiritual realm. Or that prayers go up to God as incense, or that the Lord inhabits our praises. But how do these things actually impact the spiritual realm? Well, we are trying to apply our knowledge of the physical to a non-physical realm. So, we have to just often take it as a metaphor and accept the outcome, without really knowing how the spiritual realm operates. God's given us limited knowledge, for a purpose (that's another post; we operate by faith not by sight, it's part of the test of this life), except to tell us how to impact it and what spiritual practices to refrain from (ie necromancy, clairvoyance, etc.)

[M30USA]

Yeah I see this is satan cast out of the heavens, spiritually speaking.

 

Do you believe this has already happened, is yet to happen, or just refers to an ongoing process of spiritual warfare?

 

One thing most people don't realize is that heaven (the heaven where God resides) is currently in a fallen state. This boggled my mind when I first learned this. It's a biblical fact. Otherwise Satan would not present himself before the Lord as he did in Job. Otherwise there would be no need for a "new heaven" along with the new earth in Revelation. (Why a "new heaven" unless the heaven where God resides is also fallen?) So if this is the case, I believe it means that Satan has NOT yet been cast out of heaven in the verse above, therefore it refers to the final war.

[TheFinalWord]

Do you believe this has already happened, is yet to happen, or just refers to an ongoing process of spiritual warfare?

 

One thing most people don't realize is that heaven (the heaven where God resides) is currently in a fallen state. This boggled my mind when I first learned this. It's a biblical fact. Otherwise Satan would not present himself before the Lord as he did in Job. Otherwise there would be no need for a "new heaven" along with the new earth in Revelation. (Why a "new heaven" unless the heaven where God resides is also fallen?) So if this is the case, I believe it means that Satan has NOT yet been cast out of heaven in the verse above, therefore it refers to the final war.

 

It could be. There really isn't enough biblical data to make a solid case. We know a bit about satan and his fall, but not much.

 

Hugh Ross makes an interesting case about why a new heavens and new earth, but I think it is hard to know for sure exactly what restrictions are on satan. It also says that satan appeared on a certain day. I don't know if that means he just has unlimited, free reign access. I don't even know if space is limited in the way we understand it in the spiritual realm.

[M30USA]

It could be. There really isn't enough biblical data to make a solid case. We know a bit about satan and his fall, but not much.

 

Hugh Ross makes an interesting case about why a new heavens and new earth, but I think it is hard to know for sure exactly what restrictions are on satan. It also says that satan appeared on a certain day. I don't know if that means he just has unlimited, free reign access. I don't even know if space is limited in the way we understand it in the spiritual realm.

 

Good points. I always thought that, much like on earth in the parable of the weeds, God currently allows rebellion (weeds) in heaven, but will eventually eradicate all rebellion from heaven at the end. This, in my opinion, is the context and chronology of when it says "and there was war in heaven". I don't think Satan will be given any access to God or heaven in any shape or form when it's all finalized.

[TheFinalWord]

Sorry, M30...no extensive knowledge of the bible.

 

But then again, many very studied religious leaders thought they had the who/where/how of Christ's first coming down pat. They were wrong.

 

These matters are above our understanding. I agree that it's best to be as prepared as possible. But preparation comes more through prayer, and less through our "intelligence".

 

Personally, I lean more towards we're going through the Tributlation. But who knows. I like what Joyce Meyer said..."I'm not theology expert. Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib...Just always be ready, that's my motto" You can always tell a good teacher when they can make something so complex, so simple