Will there be a physical war against Christ when he returns?

[M30USA]

Personally, I lean more towards we're going through the Tributlation. But who knows. I like what Joyce Meyer said..."I'm not theology expert. Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib...Just always be ready, that's my motto" You can always tell a good teacher when they can make something so complex, so simple

 

I am nearly 100% sure we will not go through the full tribulation. The only uncertainty, in my opinion, is whether it will be pre-trib or mid-trib. I could write a monstrous post, but I just gave the summary.

 

But honestly, I've never thought it was a big issue. I mean, seriously, people have been spending hundreds of years debating a period of just 7 years!

[pureinheart]

Sorry, M30...no extensive knowledge of the bible.

 

But then again, many very studied religious leaders thought they had the who/where/how of Christ's first coming down pat. They were wrong.

 

These matters are above our understanding. I agree that it's best to be as prepared as possible. But preparation comes more through prayer, and less through our "intelligence".

 

I really like this Pie, and am laughing bigtime thinking...if anything depended on my intelligence, well....God does have a sense of humor:D

 

Thank God for prayer:D

[pie2]

...if anything depended on my intelligence, well....God does have a sense of humor:D

 

Thank God for prayer:D

 

You and me both, pih!

[Taramere]

Aren't most physical wars the culmination of people differing in their views of what constitutes good and evil?

[OpenBook]

Aren't most physical wars the culmination of people differing in their views of what constitutes good and evil?

 

No, they're usually about money and land (and behind both of those, power). But what are you getting at here Taramere? You always make great points, but I'm not clear on this one.

[wuggle]

If you only want a certain type of answer, reserve your questions for certain types of people.

 

Disrespectful because people happen to not agree that it's a good idea to speculate when the world will end, and instead think it would be better to focus on the here and now, and actual important issues like making the world a better place?

 

Well, colour me disrespectful.

 

Ditto !

 

p.s, just for information, you really do more discredit to a conversation by assumptions and name calling than expressing an opposite view.

 

I spent the first half of my life as a devout catholic, even to the extent of seriously considering the priesthood. At a critical point in my life I realised after many years of tortured analysis, desperately trying to make the pieces fit, concocting elaborate 'links' and excuses to try to make sense of much of the contradictory nonsense in the bible , that much if not all of it was untrue.

 

One of the principal reasons I post on some of M30s threads is because I see in him a little of myself. He is obviously an intelligent guy, but he is currently at a stage of his life where HE is making desperate links and excuses for the blatant inconsistencies and untruths in the bible. I think he may be 'ripe' for an awakening, one of those moments that thankfully do happen to people. I think he may, if he keeps down the path that he is on come to a critical point where he realises the absurdities of the web that he has had to create to sustain the opinions that he believes at the moment make sense. I think in short that he has the potential to grow.

 

Posts that merely say what a wonderful christian he is, and dont listen to THEM cos they are stupid and not like us, will not in my opinion help.

 

This is a discussion forum, one that hopes to promote free thinking and growth, healing and learning.

 

You tell me Amaysngrace whose posts are really more helpful ?

[Taramere]

No, they're usually about money and land (and behind both of those, power). But what are you getting at here Taramere? You always make great points, but I'm not clear on this one.

 

I think that even when wars are evidently about money and land, people will use an ideology or philosophy to justify (to others and even to themselves) the side they take....and that ideology is usually connected to morality, or notions of good and evil. There are people who consider Nietzschean philosophy more moral than Christian philosophy is. Personally I'm not one of them, but I'm aware of the reasoning on which they base their morality - and how powerfully it can affect their choices/judgement of their own behaviour. The act of going to war requires the leaders of warfare to convince enough people to support their war effort. That's where the moral justification comes in. Without it, it's hard to see how the wars could happen.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Taramere

[fortyninethousand322]

If you only want a certain type of answer, reserve your questions for certain types of people.

 

Disrespectful because people happen to not agree that it's a good idea to speculate when the world will end, and instead think it would be better to focus on the here and now, and actual important issues like making the world a better place?

 

Well, colour me disrespectful.

 

It's probably safe to say that a question about biblical theories on the end of the world is probably asking about biblical theories about the end of the world. Not asking whether or not it's true...

[M30USA]

Ditto !

 

p.s, just for information, you really do more discredit to a conversation by assumptions and name calling than expressing an opposite view.

 

I spent the first half of my life as a devout catholic, even to the extent of seriously considering the priesthood. At a critical point in my life I realised after many years of tortured analysis, desperately trying to make the pieces fit, concocting elaborate 'links' and excuses to try to make sense of much of the contradictory nonsense in the bible , that much if not all of it was untrue.

 

One of the principal reasons I post on some of M30s threads is because I see in him a little of myself. He is obviously an intelligent guy, but he is currently at a stage of his life where HE is making desperate links and excuses for the blatant inconsistencies and untruths in the bible. I think he may be 'ripe' for an awakening, one of those moments that thankfully do happen to people. I think he may, if he keeps down the path that he is on come to a critical point where he realises the absurdities of the web that he has had to create to sustain the opinions that he believes at the moment make sense. I think in short that he has the potential to grow.

 

Posts that merely say what a wonderful christian he is, and dont listen to THEM cos they are stupid and not like us, will not in my opinion help.

 

This is a discussion forum, one that hopes to promote free thinking and growth, healing and learning.

 

You tell me Amaysngrace whose posts are really more helpful ?

 

This is precisely why I've gotten where I have. I've begun to see the Bible as more real than many people, including CHRISTIANS, would like to believe. This is precisely why I discovered the truth of the UFO phenomenon as being angelic activity on earth. Most people like to view angels as quaint little bedtime stories to teach their little children. It's all nice and safe until it's REAL. So with respect, I have already broken free from the "web" you are talking about. But it has resulted in me seeing the Bible as more real than most of my fellow Christians are even comfortable with.

[M30USA]

It's probably safe to say that a question about biblical theories on the end of the world is probably asking about biblical theories about the end of the world. Not asking whether or not it's true...

 

Exactly. I've made that point repeatedly yet these posters continue to make it about proof, evidence, etc.

 

"A wicked...generation demands a sign [ie, evidence]."

-Jesus

[M30USA]

Yeah, because asking for "proof" where it concerns the reality we live in, and what awaits us is unreasonable and wicked.

 

But, yet again, you fail to see that is not the point of this thread. And until you realize that you will continue to be frustrated in a thread which is directed at Christians who have already settled the issue on their own. Cheers.

[fortyninethousand322]

Yeah, because asking for "proof" where it concerns the reality we live in, and what awaits us is unreasonable and wicked.

 

If someone asks "do you think the Red Sox will make it to the playoffs this year?", do you think a good response would be "pfff, why do you watch baseball, it's such a dumb sport there are better ways to spend your time"?

 

That's basically what happened in this thread.

 

I can only assume it means you have nothing to contribute and just want to rant. Cool. Whatever. But it's borderline OT.

 

I'm not even that religious...

Edited April 7, 2013 by fortyninethousand322

[fortyninethousand322]

And you're contributing what to this thread?

 

As much as you are I guess.

 

I hope I'm not annoying...

[fortyninethousand322]

To simply state that it's not likely to happen, and that everyone should spend more time focusing on more important issues is ranting?

 

In a thread asking about it? Yes.

 

And why should OP focus on what you personally think is more important?

[M30USA]

Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers.

[OpenBook]

If someone asks "do you think the Red Sox will make it to the playoffs this year?", ...

 

Hey man, I want proof.

 

Which brings me to my points:

• Nobody can definitively prove what is going to happen at the end of the world, although they can certainly try.
  
• Revelation (and the rest of the Bible, for that matter) is clearly subject to interpretation.
  
• As a Christian, the only thing I really have to go on is faith. What Taramere posted above on why wars happen is EXACTLY why I'm praying for discernment when the time comes.
  
• The OP subject of this thread does make for interesting conversation - for example, I did not know there were such sharp differences in opinion among fellow believers on when the Rapture will occur in relation to the Tribulation.
  
• Yes, the Red Sox will make it to the 2013 playoffs, largely due to Lefty Lester who will surprise them all today. (ha just had to throw that out there)
  

[wuggle]

This is precisely why I've gotten where I have. I've begun to see the Bible as more real than many people, including CHRISTIANS, would like to believe. This is precisely why I discovered the truth of the UFO phenomenon as being angelic activity on earth. Most people like to view angels as quaint little bedtime stories to teach their little children. It's all nice and safe until it's REAL. So with respect, I have already broken free from the "web" you are talking about. But it has resulted in me seeing the Bible as more real than most of my fellow Christians are even comfortable with.

 

I believe you have gone down a path of thinking, you have seen 'bits' in the bible that you believe 'tie in' with other things you have seen and read in life, and you are trying to tie them all up into a cohesive 'whole', which is perfectly natural. However I also believe that your starting point, your 'foundation' is wrong, it is made of sand. IMO, enlightenment will come only when the whole house of cards collapses under the weight of its own absurdity and you start to see the real truth, that most of the things you have been taught by your parent etc are wrong. I suspect if you ever do reach that point it will be a bit painfull, to realise that you have wasted so much time and effort trying to make sense of so much nonsense.

 

But ultimately worth it. Here's hoping

[M30USA]

I believe you have gone down a path of thinking, you have seen 'bits' in the bible that you believe 'tie in' with other things you have seen and read in life, and you are trying to tie them all up into a cohesive 'whole', which is perfectly natural. However I also believe that your starting point, your 'foundation' is wrong, it is made of sand. IMO, enlightenment will come only when the whole house of cards collapses under the weight of its own absurdity and you start to see the real truth, that most of the things you have been taught by your parent etc are wrong. I suspect if you ever do reach that point it will be a bit painfull, to realise that you have wasted so much time and effort trying to make sense of so much nonsense.

 

But ultimately worth it. Here's hoping

 

This is just a re-canned version of the old argument that non-Christians are more enlightened than Christians. Sorry, that belief is untrue. Intelligence has never been a factor which determines whether someone believes the Bible or not. I have a few theories about which factors DO determine this. Intelligence is not one of them.

 

"For since...the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." (1 Corinthians 1:21)

Edited April 7, 2013 by M30USA

[pureinheart]

Based on the actions I see in this world, literally nothing surprises me. Right now we have a half-dozen insane dictators with nuclear weapons. One at the moment thinks he can conquer the entire planet. So yeah...but biblically, the same case could be made for Israel seeing God's miracles and still rejecting Him, everyone seeing Jesus' miracles and still doubting, etc.

 

One thing that is very important to remember about the Great Tribulation is that it is God's final attempt to bring mankind to Himself. More people will get saved during this time, than throughout all of history.

 

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

So, I do not believe it will be the government convincing people it is aliens invading. The whole purpose is so that people will turn to God and for Christ to set up his kingdom. It will be clear to people that they have a last chance to choose God. You can read more about the two great witnesses and the 144k.

 

 

 

 

This IMO is it right here (bold)...really good post TFW:D Salvation is always the key.

 

TFW, you point out the Bible teaching that MANY will be saved during this period (Trib)- why? Because most of these people heard discussions such as these, or read somewhere about it and realise, wow, here it is, it is happening.

 

If I was a non believer in the Trib, and if in fact Christianity is on the right track (I believe it is:eek:), and saw the world destructing itself, I'd be priddy darn thankful for those who spoke out and taught these things ahead of time.

[M30USA]

This IMO is it right here (bold)...really good post TFW:D Salvation is always the key.

 

TFW, you point out the Bible teaching that MANY will be saved during this period (Trib)- why? Because most of these people heard discussions such as these, or read somewhere about it and realise, wow, here it is, it is happening.

 

If I was a non believer in the Trib, and if in fact Christianity is on the right track (I believe it is:eek:), and saw the world destructing itself, I'd be priddy darn thankful for those who spoke out and taught these things ahead of time.

 

One of my favorite pastors Dr. Vernon McGee (now passed) agrees with TFWs point that more people will be saved during Trib than any other time.

 

I know the Trib will be sent by God (not Satan) and it will be for the purpose of drawing repentance (not judgement).

 

However...

 

I still am not convinced many people will be saved. If you read the verses about the bowls and seals of judgement in Revelation, you see many end with the repetitive idea that they did not turn from their ways.

 

Here is just one random example:

 

"They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him." (Rev 16:9)

 

The idea of refusing to repent is repeated many times. Any time something is repeated, it's to bring special attention to it. Man's heart will be so hard at that time that it is beyond correction.

[pureinheart]

One of my favorite pastors Dr. Vernon McGee (now passed) agrees with TFWs point that more people will be saved during Trib than any other time.

 

I know the Trib will be sent by God (not Satan) and it will be for the purpose of drawing repentance (not judgement).

 

However...

 

I still am not convinced many people will be saved. If you read the verses about the bowls and seals of judgement in Revelation, you see many end with the repetitive idea that they did not turn from their ways.

 

Here is just one random example:

 

"They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him." (Rev 16:9)

 

The idea of refusing to repent is repeated many times. Any time something is repeated, it's to bring special attention to it. Man's heart will be so hard at that time that it is beyond correction.

 

My only explanation to support such a claim would be differences in world population?

 

World population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

This link gives a better worded description than I could provide- it illustrates that in the early 1800's the world hit one billion for the first time ever. Whether this true, I don't know- if you have Biblical reference (or secular) that disproves this please put it out there:D

 

Now we're at almost at eight billion. Now it's anyones quess concerning the number that will be Raptured- a guess would be about two billion, leaving six billion.

 

This is just wishful thinking, although personally believe that a whole bunch of people, after seeing the things we speak of, will instantaniously get the light bulb experience, knowing exactly where they are at in time.

 

I also strongly see a great revival in the near future (pre Rapture).

 

Awwww Dr. Vernon is special in my heart- listened to him for many years via his radio program everyday:D, it still airs BTW:D

 

I'm more inclined to take your POV based on scriptural references and what I see out there...a lot of hard hearts:(

 

Just want to throw out there that I think China will be the country (based on it's current pop) supplying most of the manpower for the ground war...

Edited April 7, 2013 by pureinheart

[M30USA]

Social conditioning and emotional appeal, mostly. Same as any other religion.

 

Here is what Jesus Christ said on the matter of what makes a person believe:

 

(Note: "Wind" in the Bible symbolizes the Holy Spirit which transforms the hearts of people.)

 

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)

 

Also...

 

"As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things." (Eccl 11:5)

 

I think if it were determined by social conditioning, then Jesus would have said it. Explain then why so many people are conditioned in Catholic school, etc, and wind up going the complete opposite way?

Edited April 7, 2013 by M30USA

[WhoreyBull]

I can't claim to understand Revelation or try to guess exactly how the end times will unfold or if I'll even be around for it. I just pray that if I am here when it happens, God will give me enough discernment to make the right call.

 

Why would you want to be here when it happens? If you just live your life they way God wants and die then you will go to heaven anyways. Since you can not judge who is a true believer of Christ anyone you hold dear today maybe gone to you forever the moment the rapture comes.

Moreover, if the believers get to be with Christ forever in heaven as spiritual entities and no one ever dies do people still get to have the joy of raising a child? Or will God have used up all the spirits he had made and that's the reason the big war happened, and in heaven will be all the people that were and ever will be.

Also does hell keep going on after the second coming? Are all those souls returned to God or destroyed? And can the number of people in hell change? Because if hell is about being tortured forever I can't think of something more sick than being forced to have a child (which would have no soul of course) then have it torn from your body and tortured forever (would still be able to feel pain, I guess it'd be like giving birth to an animal) and all that is going on as we speak. I mean that seems like something the devil would do. If hell gets destroyed are the souls within are gone forever? Because it seems weird to have a period on Earth where non-believers have a chance to convert if God could just go get them, so the souls in hell must be lost forever right? ... Or if enough people don't convert will God lose the final battle? Even if the souls in hell are finally "dead" or being eternally tortured there will be some souls in heaven who have gone through tribulations. They'll have gone through pretty disturbing things would have happened to those souls and now they get to live in the kingdom of God for eternity with these memories that they could have avoided simply by believing in Christ. So they get to feel like a jackass for eternity? Or will we not have memories and that's why no one is sad they know someone stuck in hell?

 

I'm wondering if this is alluded to at all in the bible of course.

Edited April 8, 2013 by WhoreyBull

[pureinheart]

Here is what Jesus Christ said on the matter of what makes a person believe:

 

(Note: "Wind" in the Bible symbolizes the Holy Spirit which transforms the hearts of people.)

 

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." (John 3:8)

 

Also...

 

"As you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is formed in a mother's womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things." (Eccl 11:5)

 

I think if it were determined by social conditioning, then Jesus would have said it. Explain then why so many people are conditioned in Catholic school, etc, and wind up going the complete opposite way?

 

This is cool concerning the wind, and answers a lot of questions.

 

Social conditioning can be a reality, just take a look at society...but for the most part people do what they want...if the conditioning is satisfactory to the individual then it can stick. It's usually towards the "easy" side of the fence. Christianity is not "easy", nor is it the easy way out...not in this life.

 

My mother and father were both unsaved (converted shortly before death) and my mother was a far left liberal, my dad never said what his political affiliation was. I'm conservative and saved.

Edited April 8, 2013 by pureinheart

[M30USA]

This is cool concerning the wind, and answers a lot of questions.

 

Social conditioning can be a reality, just take a look at society...but for the most part people do what they want...if the conditioning is satisfactory to the individual then it can stick. It's usually towards the "easy" side of the fence. Christianity is not "easy", nor is it the easy way out...not in this life.

 

My mother and father were both unsaved (converted shortly before death) and my mother was a far left liberal, my dad never said what his political affiliation was. I'm conservative and saved.

 

If you like the wind symbolism, read this prophetic verse in Revelation:

 

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree." (Rev. 7:1)

 

This verse is generally agreed upon to refer to the point at which God completely removes his spirit from the earth, during which time humanity will literally be left in the dark without salvation or hope.