Will there be a physical war against Christ when he returns?

[TheFinalWord]

This IMO is it right here (bold)...really good post TFW:D Salvation is always the key.

 

TFW, you point out the Bible teaching that MANY will be saved during this period (Trib)- why? Because most of these people heard discussions such as these, or read somewhere about it and realise, wow, here it is, it is happening.

 

If I was a non believer in the Trib, and if in fact Christianity is on the right track (I believe it is:eek:), and saw the world destructing itself, I'd be priddy darn thankful for those who spoke out and taught these things ahead of time.

 

Couple of main reasons that I can draw:

 

1) Like M30 said, during the second half of tribulation, satan will be given full reign to enact his will. Currently, the restrainer, (my guess is this is the Holy Spirit), prevents satan from wrecking total havoc. During the second half of the tribulation, the restrainer will be removed. At that time, God will give people what they want: existence without His grace (see Matt. 5:45). A lot of people will find out that is not really what they wanted after all.

For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

2) The 2 great witnesses and the 144k will evangelize the gospel.

 

3) Those that are martyred during this time will witness for Christ. The tribulation will mark a period of unprecedented, intense persecution against the church. The bible says those confessing Christ during this time will be executed through beheading.

 

3) The judgement of God will pour out and many will convert.

 

Couple of interesting facts. One is that Revelation is pretty much just a compilation of the OT prophets. Not much new is presented. Only it is given in the context of the identification of Jesus as Messiah. You can essentially assemble the entire book from the OT prophets, which is why studying the OT major and minor prophets is pretty much essential to understanding Revelation.

 

Second (not pointing to anyone in particular; I've just read this a few times), the bible does not teach the world will end. The world will be restored. Many church creeds state this and it is found in both the old and new testaments.

 

Isaiah 45:17 - But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

 

Ephesians 3:21 - Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

[pureinheart]

If you like the wind symbolism, read this prophetic verse in Revelation:

 

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree." (Rev. 7:1)

 

This verse is generally agreed upon to refer to the point at which God completely removes his spirit from the earth, during which time humanity will literally be left in the dark without salvation or hope.

 

Wow, thank you for this...just read a bunch of stuff on this scripture, and it is a trip. Still putting it all together on the comprehension end of it. Love it and am going to do a study on it:D I never understood the symbolic nature of "wind".

[M30USA]

Wow, thank you for this...just read a bunch of stuff on this scripture, and it is a trip. Still putting it all together on the comprehension end of it. Love it and am going to do a study on it:D I never understood the symbolic nature of "wind".

 

Learned that from good ol' Vernon!

 

BTW, did you know when Vernon passed away he had fallen asleep at his desk and slipped away peacefully? That guy deserved an easy exit. Honestly that's all I hope for. I'm not afraid of death, itself, just the pain and disease that typically accompanies it.

Edited April 8, 2013 by M30USA

[TheFinalWord]

Learned that from good ol' Vernon!

 

BTW, did you know when Vernon passed away he had fallen asleep at his desk and slipped away peacefully? That guy deserved an easy exit. Honestly that's all I hope for. I'm not afraid of death, itself, just the pain and disease that typically accompanies it.

 

Didn't know he even passed! Thanks for the update. They play his sermons on the radio so I regularly listen. He has a very comforting way of preaching; like you can just feel the peace of God (to me it feels like a giant shield haha).

 

[M30USA]

Didn't know he even passed! Thanks for the update. They play his sermons on the radio so I regularly listen. He has a very comforting way of preaching; like you can just feel the peace of God (to me it feels like a giant shield haha).

 

 

Yea, wasn't it a while ago? I'm not sure.

[TheFinalWord]

Yea, wasn't it a while ago? I'm not sure.

 

Yeah like 20 years ago!! lol I'm out of it He's like Adrian Rogers. Enough material to re-air for 30 years straight.

[M30USA]

Yeah like 20 years ago!! lol I'm out of it He's like Adrian Rogers. Enough material to re-air for 30 years straight.

 

Yea forget thru-the-bible-in-a-year. Vernon spent 5 years! Plus he frequently made comments about how he had to be brief.

[pie2]

Smart people can believe in silly things, and vice versa.

 

Well, I believe in you (a smart person), so that makes me a....wait a minute...

 

[pureinheart]

Second (not pointing to anyone in particular; I've just read this a few times), the bible does not teach the world will end. The world will be restored. Many church creeds state this and it is found in both the old and new testaments.

 

Isaiah 45:17 - But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

 

Ephesians 3:21 - Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

Amen Brotha!

 

If you don't mind I want to quote you twice with two separate posts for purpose of study:D

 

Wanted to hit on this part first due to no study required. As I said in an earlier post- read Revelations inside and out when first getting saved, it's been a few years since then lol. Man, when I'm talking to my friends and ministering, the knowledge just pours out, but for some reason I'm drawing a blank right now.

 

Exactly- the world does not end- the earth is basically destroyed (Jesus said if He didn't return there would be nothing left which gives us a basic understanding of what MAN does to destroy himself ).

 

I do believe, and looked for a commentary that got straight to the point concerning the new heaven and earth and the 1000 year reign of Christ, which I believe to be literal, but couldn't find one without all of the different interpretations. It truly confused me...lol my brain hurts (literal interpretation:D)

 

Wow, I'm with OB, didn't realise there were so many interpretations of the Millenium period

[pureinheart]

Yeah like 20 years ago!! lol I'm out of it He's like Adrian Rogers. Enough material to re-air for 30 years straight.

 

Did Adrian pass too???

 

TFW- you're aging yourself... J/k ....it's all wisdom:)

[pureinheart]

Learned that from good ol' Vernon!

 

BTW, did you know when Vernon passed away he had fallen asleep at his desk and slipped away peacefully? That guy deserved an easy exit. Honestly that's all I hope for. I'm not afraid of death, itself, just the pain and disease that typically accompanies it.

 

I'm with ya on that one Brotha (or should that be Bratha...no doesn't look right) ...I'd say "Bro", but that's a dude thing..so will do the chick thing.

 

No, I didn't know how he passed. Am so glad it was peaceful- thank you Jesus. He was out of Stockton, CA I think. Always wanted to go there and see him.

 

Wow, he was/is awesome...man, he didn't hold back did he! He told it like it is/was.

Edited April 8, 2013 by pureinheart

[pureinheart]

Did Adrian pass too???

 

TFW- you're aging yourself... J/k ....it's all wisdom:)

 

Wait- scratch that, as you might have just looked that up and not aging yourself:o but the wisdom is definitely there ....

 

Probably time for me to step away from the keyboard.

[pie2]

Wait- scratch that, as you might have just looked that up and not aging yourself:o but the wisdom is definitely there ....

 

Probably time for me to step away from the keyboard.

 

 

Either way, TFW's got an old soul .

[pureinheart]

 

Either way, TFW's got an old soul .

 

Thanks for bailing me out of that one Pie!!!!!!!

[TheFinalWord]

Man, when I'm talking to my friends and ministering, the knowledge just pours out, but for some reason I'm drawing a blank right now.

 

I know exactly what you mean! I have many days like that. Sometimes I feel that even after I post here...like, "what did you just type? could you have at least run a spell check?" lol j/k I'm rusty on prophecy too. I'm finding more and more that God is doing something in my life, and teaching me spiritual concepts. I've been "stuck" in 1st and 2nd Cor. for a few months. I personally believe, it is the deepest epistle. haha But maybe I'm biased. But it is causing me to see the truth of Christ in an all new fashion. It is something that is hard to explain, but I know you know what I mean. It's exciting when these things happen.

 

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

 

Thanks for bailing me out of that one Pie!!!!!!!

 

haha you're not off the hook yet

 

Very clever save, pie2

Edited April 8, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[M30USA]

Amen Brotha!

 

If you don't mind I want to quote you twice with two separate posts for purpose of study:D

 

Wanted to hit on this part first due to no study required. As I said in an earlier post- read Revelations inside and out when first getting saved, it's been a few years since then lol. Man, when I'm talking to my friends and ministering, the knowledge just pours out, but for some reason I'm drawing a blank right now.

 

Exactly- the world does not end- the earth is basically destroyed (Jesus said if He didn't return there would be nothing left which gives us a basic understanding of what MAN does to destroy himself ).

 

I do believe, and looked for a commentary that got straight to the point concerning the new heaven and earth and the 1000 year reign of Christ, which I believe to be literal, but couldn't find one without all of the different interpretations. It truly confused me...lol my brain hurts (literal interpretation:D)

 

Wow, I'm with OB, didn't realise there were so many interpretations of the Millenium period

 

Speaking of Revelation and Vernon McGee, I think his study of Rev. is the best out there. He tells you what we know with certainty and what's up for debate.

[pureinheart]

Speaking of Revelation and Vernon McGee, I think his study of Rev. is the best out there. He tells you what we know with certainty and what's up for debate.

 

Oh man thank you! Certain controversial issues I've put to rest long ago, although last night found I need to get back into this. God Bless you!

[pureinheart]

I know exactly what you mean! I have many days like that. Sometimes I feel that even after I post here...like, "what did you just type? could you have at least run a spell check?" lol j/k I'm rusty on prophecy too. I'm finding more and more that God is doing something in my life, and teaching me spiritual concepts. I've been "stuck" in 1st and 2nd Cor. for a few months. I personally believe, it is the deepest epistle. haha But maybe I'm biased. But it is causing me to see the truth of Christ in an all new fashion. It is something that is hard to explain, but I know you know what I mean. It's exciting when these things happen.

 

We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

 

 

 

haha you're not off the hook yet

 

Very clever save, pie2

 

My spelling is terrible and need to have spell check on LS:D not to mention it can take forever to post due to pc issues- this laptop has had problems ever since a certain issue on LS took place and I have to proof read and fix a lot of errors. It's like it gets overloaded and skips much that has been typed.

 

TFW, my sincerest apologies, that was uncalled for and thank you for your grace...guessing it's evident why I need so much grace.

 

My apologies to the members also and OP.

 

God is doing a work, that is for certain. An unusual work...and will use this term that I am on a very short leash as of late. It's not that Gods grace isn't there, although I've worn His patience thin- very thin.

 

With that, I firmly believe we are in the last last days, meaning things are winding up fast- how "fast" that will be IDK- one thing I know for sure is, God is cleaning up His church. On some levels it's very intimidating because I know I better line up.

 

((((((hugs)))))

[TheFinalWord]

TFW, my sincerest apologies, that was uncalled for and thank you for your grace...guessing it's evident why I need so much grace.

 

haha that's okay! No need to apologize, I thought it was funny.

 

This forum needs more humor, so thanks for always adding some. Too many people are way too serious in this forum IMHO. "Laughter is medicine"

[Eve]

The main aspect to Revelation which intrigues me is the mention that a great mystery or secret of God will be revealed. I will have to find the passage to be more precise. It also states that no one will ever work out what the secret/mystery is before it's time, which has proved rather a provoking statement to me. I think it is in Revelations Chapter 10 somewhere..

 

.. I go to sleep at night trying to work out what it could be - but I am rather sad.

 

I think there are very dedicated people who will not ever believe in God, even after the tribulations outlined are experienced but I don't see them all as being average Joes. I think most people will be glad to know that God is actually real once things they can see and feel begin to happen on a global scale as is described. But the ones who will be doing the fighting against God will be the partakers Jesus and the prophets warn us about.. the ones who actually have been actively worshiping the devil and demons. The true, active orchestrators behind this system.

 

So, I go with the whole Illuminati Government thing as being those brand of peeps, not normal folk. I think they really believe that they are going to win, even though the Bible says the War will last but one hour before they are defeated.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[pureinheart]

Speaking of Revelation and Vernon McGee, I think his study of Rev. is the best out there. He tells you what we know with certainty and what's up for debate.

 

Thank. You.

 

Dr. J. Vernon McGee's Notes and Outlines - Revelation 1

 

Now this is what I'm talking about:D

 

haha that's okay! No need to apologize, I thought it was funny.

 

This forum needs more humor, so thanks for always adding some. Too many people are way too serious in this forum IMHO. "Laughter is medicine"

 

YEP!!!!! I'd rather have fun, life can be too serious at times....

 

Thank you for being so gracious:D Cool...you're awesome Brotha!

[pureinheart]

The main aspect to Revelation which intrigues me is the mention that a great mystery or secret of God will be revealed. I will have to find the passage to be more precise. It also states that no one will ever work out what the secret/mystery is before it's time, which has proved rather a provoking statement to me. I think it is in Revelations Chapter 10 somewhere..

 

.. I go to sleep at night trying to work out what it could be - but I am rather sad.

 

I think there are very dedicated people who will not ever believe in God, even after the tribulations outlined are experienced but I don't see them all as being average Joes. I think most people will be glad to know that God is actually real once things they can see and feel begin to happen on a global scale as is described. But the ones who will be doing the fighting against God will be the partakers Jesus and the prophets warn us about.. the ones who actually have been actively worshiping the devil and demons. The true, active orchestrators behind this system.

 

So, I go with the whole Illuminati Government thing as being those brand of peeps, not normal folk. I think they really believe that they are going to win, even though the Bible says the War will last but one hour before they are defeated.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

I completely agree with you and want to say Eve, this is an absolutely wonderful post, I am blessed by it:D thank you.

 

I think there are many right at the door. In some ways they have already given their lives to Christ, they're just not completely sold out. And then there are those that know the truth and follow- they honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me...observing the "form", but denying the power thereof. I believe these to be right at the door believer will "get it" instantaniously.

 

Eve, I am in the process of getting my life right- it's never been right really. Am the one step forward three steps back person, never really getting to where God wants me to be. This will change because something miraculous happened while watching the History Channel series, "The Bible"...I know it's secular, although the anointing was on it.

 

If I might ask for guidance on a matter: The Lord prompted me, and has been prompting me to call TBN for prayer...finally did a bit ago. The prayer partner led me into a rededication prayer and during it prayed that I would be "Rapture ready".

 

What does this mean? Is this refering to sin? If so, then I'll never be Rapture ready...now there is sin that needs to get out of my life, although I will always sin- somethng, you know? A wrong attitude, something unGodly coming out of my mouth...you know?

[Eve]

I completely agree with you and want to say Eve, this is an absolutely wonderful post, I am blessed by it:D thank you.

 

I think there are many right at the door. In some ways they have already given their lives to Christ, they're just not completely sold out. And then there are those that know the truth and follow- they honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me...observing the "form", but denying the power thereof. I believe these to be right at the door believer will "get it" instantaniously.

 

Eve, I am in the process of getting my life right- it's never been right really. Am the one step forward three steps back person, never really getting to where God wants me to be. This will change because something miraculous happened while watching the History Channel series, "The Bible"...I know it's secular, although the anointing was on it.

 

If I might ask for guidance on a matter: The Lord prompted me, and has been prompting me to call TBN for prayer...finally did a bit ago. The prayer partner led me into a rededication prayer and during it prayed that I would be "Rapture ready".

 

What does this mean? Is this refering to sin? If so, then I'll never be Rapture ready...now there is sin that needs to get out of my life, although I will always sin- somethng, you know? A wrong attitude, something unGodly coming out of my mouth...you know?

 

It says in Revelation that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. So, there must be a pretty big Revelation that is going to go down. My number one thought on this currently is that we will all see precisely where Jesus went when He died for us - spread out in the sky, like the ultimate TV, Surround System. This may be inspired by my love of film and the arts though.

 

I think that all our experiences will then 'come together' because we are all just a big family really. I think all the ascended masters will be there too. The great ones who have pondered wisdom over the centuries, the great and the small and all our stories will be told in one. I can't wait!

 

So, yeah, I tend to just accept people where ever they are at. Some are great great helpers and will be very glad to know the truth finally, some are idiots - but the aim is love. Also, it states in Revelation that hell and the false prophet will be chucked into the lake of fire, which really is something to comprehend visually. Hope it's in 3D, lol.

 

So, yes I believe that there is a great unfolding in spirit that needs to happen to tie up all the loose ends of those who are close and those who are far from God and prayer is the primary key.

 

Now, I am not a churched person and don't know much about the rapture on a personal level. It says that The Holy Spirit will be removed in those last days, so I don't think I will around then as I live entirely by The Holy Spirit. It says that people will not be able to be saved in those times, which suggests to me that it is the presence of The Holy Spirit which saves us. I think many people have been inadvertenly following The Holy Spirit and His absence will provide a testimony that is important. So, in total I see us all as playing a part via our spiritual identities which are given at birth. I think that we are perplexed mostly by the destiny of this spirit we have been given and most off our turmoil comes from not being sure if God loves us or not. Well, since I resolved that God loves me.. things have been going pretty ok. So, I am not sure about the rapture but I do believe that the point you reached when you reached out for prayer was a real point reached in your spiritual development.

 

My biggest advice is to simply live your life well. Love God but really honestly examine whether you know you are loved by God. I admitted to God that I was not sure about His love for me and this was a massive key in my development. Once you know God loves you, truly nowt can bother you again and it is easy to love others.. which are the two requirements of the Law. Sin becomes less of an issue after that. I am not perfect at all but rarely sin nowadays. So, I think it is a process which God Has already signed up to seeing through to the final Revelation.

 

Bcoming rapture ready, if there is such a thing, must therefore be about seeking God beyond our short comings, disbelief and discontent - which is what prayer is designed for. All I know is that the work that has begun, God will finish. Some are more attuned to this than others but I think this is because they are 'marked' as such or experiences have pushed them over an edge that has made them more aware. I don't ever see it as being some are better than others.

 

I know that most people will never believe in demonic forces until they see it for themselves. I don't think it is easily proved here but there is mounting evidence from survivors and those who have come through spiritual attack that suggests that the demons are actually seriously organised, lol.

 

I probably should have sent this via PM but really I don't mind if people think I am crazy, as I know I am not.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[skydiveaddict]

I'll start off by saying that there is a clear, unequivocal point in the Bible that Christ's return will not be welcomed (Rev 1:7). This is because Christians, at that point, will already have been taken/raptured and therefore the remaining people on earth will be his enemies.[\QUOTE]

 

This "rapture theology" nonsense is relatively new. Conjured up among badly educated fundamentalists and JW's who don't have a basic understanding of even rudimentary biblical fundamentals. Most educated biblical scholars dismiss it outright.

Edited April 9, 2013 by skydiveaddict

[M30USA]

This "rapture theology" nonsense is relatively new. Conjured up among badly educated fundamentalists

 

The early church fathers all believed the rapture. That means its been around for at least 1500 years. Please check your facts.

Edited April 9, 2013 by M30USA