Prioritization of Values Theory

[dichotomy]

I am not sure what putting God first means exactly. Okay maybe my love for HIM first, but I know that God's words are to love my wife as Christ loved the church. That's a big task - kind of a goal you work on but never quiet reach. So if I follow HIS word, then I am not putting God first by focusing on loving, leading and sacrificing for my wife - kind of putting her first I am following him first ?

 

Don't know.

[M30USA]

I am not sure what putting God first means exactly. Okay maybe my love for HIM first, but I know that God's words are to love my wife as Christ loved the church. That's a big task - kind of a goal you work on but never quiet reach. So if I follow HIS word, then I am not putting God first by focusing on loving, leading and sacrificing for my wife - kind of putting her first I am following him first ?

 

Don't know.

 

Christ said if we love him, then we will:

1) Obey his commandments

2) Feed his sheep (help those who are called according to the Spirt)

 

So, for example, a person who chooses not to steal food even when his family is starving is actually putting God first because he is not breaking #1 (which indirectly means he loves God more than anything even food or life itself).

 

Also Abraham was willing to give up his only son (Isaac) when God asked him to in a test.

[pureinheart]

I want to know more about this, if you are able to verbalise it. PM is ok if it is a bit heavy. Of course, that is if you want to!!!

 

I like the plain view of humanity within Attribution Theory. Often people lose sight of this within their claims/theories/priorities.

 

I first came into contact with the theory whilst working with people who abuse substances/alcohol. It is funny being on the outside, watching a person come to the realisation that they are doing what they are doing quite simply because they want to. Same with my observations of people in and not in the faith. I am quite convinced that most of true workings go on within our subconscious mind but is being fed by the internal/external attributions we hold onto most.

 

Jesus has always stood out to me because He was all about God. Nothing got in the way off his mission. He controlled the flesh, even to death and the Earth obeyed Him. Since understanding Him as being The Word I have found that I am not controlled/anxious anymore.

 

All in all, I am quite convinced that much of what we do is anxiety lead, even matters linked to perceiving the faith. For example, I was pondering today whether in fact those who Jesus healed were actually already believers.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

Hey love, I just saw your post...am currently experiencing an adrenalin rush due to a very bad temper that NEEDS tempered:eek: ...but anyway am unable to think right now. This topic is breakthrough stuff for me so need to explore it further and would love to discuss/learn more about it.

 

I so wish I could concentrate right now....soooo, I'll be back!

[Eve]

Hey love, I just saw your post...am currently experiencing an adrenalin rush due to a very bad temper that NEEDS tempered:eek: ...but anyway am unable to think right now. This topic is breakthrough stuff for me so need to explore it further and would love to discuss/learn more about it.

 

I so wish I could concentrate right now....soooo, I'll be back!

 

Ok, but I could just be rambling again, lol.

 

Why we do what we do is a constant point of fascination for me..

 

Take care,

Eve x

[pureinheart]

I want to know more about this, if you are able to verbalise it. PM is ok if it is a bit heavy. Of course, that is if you want to!!!

 

I like the plain view of humanity within Attribution Theory. Often people lose sight of this within their claims/theories/priorities.

 

I first came into contact with the theory whilst working with people who abuse substances/alcohol. It is funny being on the outside, watching a person come to the realisation that they are doing what they are doing quite simply because they want to. Same with my observations of people in and not in the faith. I am quite convinced that most of true workings go on within our subconscious mind but is being fed by the internal/external attributions we hold onto most.

 

Jesus has always stood out to me because He was all about God. Nothing got in the way off his mission. He controlled the flesh, even to death and the Earth obeyed Him. Since understanding Him as being The Word I have found that I am not controlled/anxious anymore.

 

All in all, I am quite convinced that much of what we do is anxiety lead, even matters linked to perceiving the faith. For example, I was pondering today whether in fact those who Jesus healed were actually already believers.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

Attribution Theory

 

Ah, finally got a chance to explore this...

 

Understanding why people do what they do, especially ourselves.

 

I honestly believe we are shaped by events that occur in our lives. My best example would be molestation as a child. When an "adult" event occurs in a "childs" life, the child will reason like a child and deal with the situation as such- there are many different ways in which the "child" will deal with this- but it does shape how they view the world and can distort reality bigtime.

 

Everyones "normal" is different, although the abused person sees and reasons under a much different "normal" IMO.

 

For me, trauma after trauma created some REALLY bad decisions. I used to beat myself up for those bad decisions, although God, through His Word and teachers (like the teacher of Attribution Theory, and others) helped me come to terms and understand - yes I AM accountable, however there were reasons.

 

With a long history of unfaithful men (not blaming them BTW) my view of God was distorted, it has been difficult to trust God even though being saved and "knowing" the truth. Attribution theories and others like it give confirmation that God is not the problem, my distorted views of men were the problem. This can be used with many other distortions . Fact: chances are I chose men who were not faithful, possibly subconsciously to fulfill my distortions.

 

To judge God based my experiences with men is ridiculous as "man" will always fail us- God never will:)

 

Eve, you are an absolute doll. I explored other theories that helped, but were never able to nail it. In fact it nails it so much so that I find myself drawing a somewhat blank- that means breakthrough IMO.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I don't see how it's a theory - it's prioritization of values. Making a list like that would be helpful in seeing clearly how one prioritizes their own values, and might be useful, too, in seeing if someone we're interested in has similar priorities.

[pie2]

I am not sure what putting God first means exactly. Okay maybe my love for HIM first, but I know that God's words are to love my wife as Christ loved the church. That's a big task - kind of a goal you work on but never quiet reach. So if I follow HIS word, then I am not putting God first by focusing on loving, leading and sacrificing for my wife - kind of putting her first I am following him first ?

 

IMO, you're putting God first when you love, lead and sacrifice for your wife . And God recognizes that your heart will no longer be singularly focused on Him, but will instead have the additional preoccupation with things in the non-spiritual realm.

 

"But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world - how he can please his wife..." - 1 Corinthians 7:33

 

If you didn't care for your wife's, children's or relatives' needs, then you definitely wouldn't be following God's will (1 Timothy 5:8).

 

I don't know how others here feel, but I pretty much even think that stealing to feed my starving (innocent bystander) children would be forgiven (granted, with the intention of paying it back, hopefully with interest ).

 

rubbish theory

 

strange I guess...how things go

[pie2]

In fact it nails it so much so that I find myself drawing a somewhat blank- that means breakthrough IMO.

 

 

You're cracking me up.

 

[M30USA]

IMO, you're putting God first when you love, lead and sacrifice for your wife . And God recognizes that your heart will no longer be singularly focused on Him, but will instead have the additional preoccupation with things in the non-spiritual realm.

 

"But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world - how he can please his wife..." - 1 Corinthians 7:33

 

If you didn't care for your wife's, children's or relatives' needs, then you definitely wouldn't be following God's will (1 Timothy 5:8).

 

You bring up a good point. But I still don't think being a married man is justfication to disobey God or do what we know is wrong.

 

I don't know how others here feel, but I pretty much even think that stealing to feed my starving (innocent bystander) children would be forgiven (granted, with the intention of paying it back, hopefully with interest )

 

 

give me neither poverty nor riches,

but give me only my daily bread.

Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you

and say, ‘Who is the Lord?’

Or I may become poor and steal,

and so dishonor the name of my God.

(Proverbs 30:8-9)

 

 

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

(Matthew 4:1-4)

Edited April 16, 2013 by M30USA

[Thegameoflife]

I think that man subconsciously seeks contentment or internal peace. All religions for the most part are pathways or guidance towards this goal. If you look at the animal world, most animals spend their time in a relaxed state. We're not much different.

As for our culture, way of life, and the path in life that people take; all paths that don't help us attain our contentment, are manipulations that exploit this desire to fulfill goals that are not in our interest, which people have perverted weaker minds to believe to be the paths to contentment. I'll write more on this later or tomorrow.

[Thegameoflife]

I think that man subconsciously seeks contentment or internal peace. All religions for the most part are pathways or guidance towards this goal. If you look at the animal world, most animals spend their time in a relaxed state. We're not much different.

As for our culture, way of life, and the path in life that people take; all paths that don't help us attain our contentment, are manipulations that exploit this desire to fulfill goals that are not in our interest, which people have perverted weaker minds to believe to be the paths to contentment. I'll write more on this later or tomorrow.

 

This perversion started a long time ago. According to the bible, the story of adam and eve is the original perversion, but could be just a story. Nonetheless, it illustrates my point as God gave them everything they needed to be content. They had a paradise full of food, clean water, and all they had to do was not eat from the knowledge of good and evil tree. The devil, disguised as a snake, convinced eve to eat the apple, and the idea that greater things than contentment was seeded in her mind.

 

I believe that people behave according to how their mind has been perverted with knowledge. A person's personality and actions are a display of how they've been corrupted with ideas that usually aren't even their own.

 

Now, to take what I've said about perversion of the mind with knowledge, and apply it to your idea of values determining personality and culture. My original comment still stands, because it takes a person who's nature it is to be corrupted by knowledge, and then the knowledge itself to corrupt the person. Your value theory is really just a way to measure how one's knowledge has affected their priorities. However, it then means that these values are not the variables, but rather the knowledge that shapes the person is the variable responsible for their personality, and common knowledge would be what defines the culture.

 

Another name for knowledge of good and evil, is morality. The idea of morality once accepted as truth, becomes the prison of free will.

 

If God is truly your Father, than you live life as one of his children, and not his servant. God's children know what is in their hearts to be the truth, and morality has no purpose in their lives. To accept morality as truth, is to follow the one who convinced you to take a bite of that apple.

[M30USA]

If God is truly your Father, than you live life as one of his children, and not his servant. God's children know what is in their hearts to be the truth, and morality has no purpose in their lives. To accept morality as truth, is to follow the one who convinced you to take a bite of that apple.

 

???

 

I'm confused. So you think Christians don't have to worry about morals? Jesus himself said the Law is not abolished.

 

Secondly, who says we are not gods servants? Paul, himself, said we are "slaves of Christ". There is no such thing as an autonomous, self-willed person. Paul flat-out admitted that he went directly from being a slave of sin to a slave of Christ. Additionally, in heaven we shall serve Christ for eternity.

[Thegameoflife]

???

 

I'm confused. So you think Christians don't have to worry about morals? Jesus himself said the Law is not abolished.

 

Secondly, who says we are not gods servants? Paul, himself, said we are "slaves of Christ". There is no such thing as an autonomous, self-willed person. Paul flat-out admitted that he went directly from being a slave of sin to a slave of Christ. Additionally, in heaven we shall serve Christ for eternity.

 

Think about adam and eve. God gives them everything they could want. He only had one rule for them: Don't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Not, don't eat from a tree of knowledge, cause God loves knowledge. He told them not to eat from that tree because without knowing all things, that particular knowledge would be humanities downfall. What is knowledge of good and evil, but morality. The Devil however, he deceived them to eat the apple, and mankind was tainted with the idea of morality. Learning of morality got them kicked out of paradise.

 

First off, morality and law are two very different things. Morality is the idea that we can define something as good or evil. All morality is absolutely subjective, which is why it's so dangerous. Morality gives us absolutely nothing but criteria to pass judgment. Judgement spawns hate, which is the anti-thesis to love. From that hate, mankind has carried out nothing but horrors against other men. God specifically states that we are not to pass judgment on others, but only to forgive and love our neighbors as though they are ourself. Judgement was reserved for God alone, which is why adam and eve weren't supposed to eat the morality apple.

 

So why did the Devil want adam and eve to eat the apple? He wanted dominion over humanity, and by getting them to take in the knowledge of good and evil, he could use it to enslave them by seeding humanity with ideas of morality. When God created man, he gave them free will, which is really what enabled them to eat the apple. They were autonomously free-willed, and pure. Satan didn't like this, and he felt that humanity should be servants of heaven, as the angels were servants of God. If I remember right, when God went down to kick out adam and eve, Satan sat on his throne, declaring he should be in charge.

 

The reason why morality can be used to enslave humanity by eliminating free will, is because of how morality affects the human mind. See, once the human mind accepts a moral as truth, a few things happen. One, is the internal judgment, or self-judgment. Lets say you have homosexual thoughts about another person, which you've been taught is evil. The result is hatred for your own self, which is horrible torture that even ones enemies don't deserve. People kill themselves to evade this self-torture. As is said that one must love themselves to love others, one who hates themselves, will hate others. God would never give us a reason to hate his creation. The second is that people who accept a moral as truth, will use it as justification to hate others. We have a rich history of hate from morality, where billions have been killed in it's name. Morality is the most dangerous weapon that existed, as the one who has moral authority, controls all those who believe in morality as truth.

 

Anyone who calls morality a truth, is a servant of Satan. This is why there will be a great tribulation one day, where Satan will finally be defeated. How will God defeat Satan? He doesn't have to. He simply has to remove those who learn the truth of morality, and that rightchious choice is given to those who are one with God. The believers in morality as truth will square off against each other, and proceed to wipe each other off the face of the earth. This is why it is said that 12,000 from 12 tribes of judah will be saved, while all others will face judgment. There are 144,000 to be saved, and over 1 billion Christians. The reason why all christians won't be saved, is because Satan tainted almost all religions with morality as truth. This shouldn't be surprising, as the person who organized the creation of the holy bible Christianity follows, was the roman emperor constantine. This man was a pagan, and a horrible monster. He wrote the bible with the absolute intent of using Satan's morality, so that he could control the population of the empire with it. Those who are not blind, know that amongst the lies, the truth is written for those will to accept it into their hearts.

[pie2]

So why did the Devil want adam and eve to eat the apple? He wanted dominion over humanity, and by getting them to take in the knowledge of good and evil, he could use it to enslave them by seeding humanity with ideas of morality.

 

Thegame -

 

What are your thoughts about the word morality versus immorality?

 

Do you mean that people were enslaved with immorality through knowledge of good and evil?

[Thegameoflife]

Thegame -

 

What are your thoughts about the word morality versus immorality?

 

Do you mean that people were enslaved with immorality through knowledge of good and evil?

 

Morality is the idea of right and wrong. Immorality is being in the wrong with regards to the moral.

 

People are enslaved by the morals themselves, once they are accepted as truth.

 

What a moral is, is judgment criteria. Right and wrong is used for nothing other than to judge an action. Right and wrong, can also be called positive and negative. Positive and negative is exactly how we react to moral and immoral behaviors. Whether these behaviors are from someone else, or are our own, we respond to them negatively or positively.

 

Let's take another teaching that Christ spoke of many times. Love. Love is postitive only. Hate is negative, but hate has no place in love. Love God, Love yourself, Love your neighbor. When wronged by another, Jesus said to forgive the ones you love. If you believe in Jesus' most important message of love, then what place is there for morality, when it brings negativity. You can't love yourself and your neighbor, but hold a truth that makes you feel negatively about yourself or your neighbor. Only those who wish to foster hate have a place for morality.

 

As for how morality enslaves people. It works as positive and negative reinforcment. If you can convince someone to accept a moral as truth, they will naturally punish themselves for being immoral, and punish others for being immoral. If you think about this, your free will becomes imprisoned, as to think a thought against this moral, is to create an unbearable conflict in the mind. People are literally walking around hating themselves for their immoral thoughts, and hate people who act on those thoughts even more.

 

The problem with morality, is it can be determined by anyone who wishes to be a master over men.

 

The thing with morality is that anyone can become a moral authority. A perfect example is secular morality. It doesn't come from a church of any kind. It's simply created by people that are considered to be intelligent and respected, and the morals are adopted by many. One person who believes that this is the way the world should be, can infect the mind of others with their morality. Think of Hitler. He used his position of authority and respect to create an idea in people's minds that exterminating Jews and others deamed as undesirable, was a morally just cause. Hitler took control of people by altering their moral code to one that wouldn't create internal or externally negative reactions, making the German mass a complient fascist machine.

 

The truth is, we've seen morality get changed over and over again, and every single time it was about controlling people. The only people this doesn't work on is someone who loves themeselves and others, because they feel no need to judge others or themselves. They just treat people how they'd like to be treated.

 

I personally have no moral code. I simply love myself and others, and treat people in a loving way. There is nothing for me in any religion, because I have everything I need inside me, and every person has it in them too. To rid yourself of this toxic way of thinking is tricky, and takes a conscious effort to get rid of what we were all brought up with. It's engrained into every culture, but we will ultimately destroy ourselves if we don't stop it. Unfortunately, I think we're way passed the point of correcting things, and apart from the moral system collapsing horribly, I think people will never come to the realization of the problem.

 

We should start a new thread if you wish to discuss anything further.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Thegameoflife

[Eve]

I personally have no moral code. I simply love myself and others, and treat people in a loving way. There is nothing for me in any religion, because I have everything I need inside me, and every person has it in them too. To rid yourself of this toxic way of thinking is tricky, and takes a conscious effort to get rid of what we were all brought up with. It's engrained into every culture, but we will ultimately destroy ourselves if we don't stop it. Unfortunately, I think we're way passed the point of correcting things, and apart from the moral system collapsing horribly, I think people will never come to the realization of the problem.

 

We should start a new thread if you wish to discuss anything further.

 

What you said about morality is interesting. I have heard this said in terms of the introduction of The Law (Ten Commandments/Torah). Essentially until Moses passed on The Law to the Judeans, people were said to have lived for 900 years etc in the Bible - which I always wondered about. On the day Moses came down from Mount Sinai, 3000 people died because they were convicted of their sin, presumably for the first time (they made a molten calf and worshipped it in a big party whilst Moses was up on the Mountain) From that time mans days were cut short with normal life lines as we have now due to our ability to be convicted by our sin. As such a new remedy was needed for sin.

 

In Acts (I believe) 3000 were saved when The Holy Spirit came at Pentacost.

 

So, basically our trying to maintain The Law is lethal - hence the two primary Laws (Love God and Love our neighbour) given by Christ, with the gift of The Holy Spirt. In this regard I can relate to what you say about how our attributions can condemn us and aid in the condemnation of others.

 

These things are off interest to me because I do have a bias to be attracted to Shaman type people because I am able to see, hear, smell and see a lot of things in spirit - and as such I was reading from a Guru guy the other day who I really like and he and his research organisation believe that at one point, spirit in the Earth was at 80%, now they say it is at about 20% because of the way society is and the end of this age fast approaching. I think this is right as many do not naturally know what is right anymore. They are offended by it even and cannot fathom prioritising God.

 

So, yes, I live only by my connection to God but I would say it is like still being a child more than anything else. This means not prioritising anything before God. From this I have been freed from my own anxiety, which can try to masquerade as faith. I think this is why Jesus warned us to remove the smote from our own eye before we try to remove it from our brother as often we will see what we want to see, rather than the potential which is present if we are to trust God. To trust God is to love.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[pie2]

Think about adam and eve. God gives them everything they could want. He only had one rule for them: Don't eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

When God told Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, it seems to me that, at that time, he instituted a code of right and wrong behavior (aka a moral code) (Genesis 2:16-17). Adam and Eve already had within themselves the ability to know the right thing to do.

 

If you believe in Jesus' most important message of love, then what place is there for morality, when it brings negativity. You can't love yourself and your neighbor, but hold a truth that makes you feel negatively about yourself or your neighbor. Only those who wish to foster hate have a place for morality.

 

God requires us to hate what is evil. (Romans 12:9) In that way, hate is a very justified emotion. Without it, there couldn't be a definition of love.

 

I personally have no moral code. I simply love myself and others, and treat people in a loving way. There is nothing for me in any religion, because I have everything I need inside me, and every person has it in them too.

 

It's impossible to love yourself and love others at all times. Claiming the ability to do so is not an honest assessment of your deepest motivations and desires, imo . I hope that you are able to learn to see the way that loving yourself and loving others can rarely (if ever) be done simultaneously.

 

I do think you're right in that becoming enslaved to the law is destructive. But attempting to operate outside the confines of the law is impossible, as is acting perfectly within the confines of the law. That's why Jesus died for our sins.

 

To rid yourself of this toxic way of thinking is tricky, and takes a conscious effort to get rid of what we were all brought up with. It's engrained into every culture...

 

I believe that people behave according to how their mind has been perverted with knowledge.

 

So, your idea is that we should all erase our knowledge of good and evil? But then we'd have no free will to choose to love God and hate what is wrong. Our love would be meaningless.

[Thegameoflife]

When God told Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, it seems to me that, at that time, he instituted a code of right and wrong behavior (aka a moral code) (Genesis 2:16-17). Adam and Eve already had within themselves the ability to know the right thing to do.

 

God made a rule. All they knew was God didn't want them to eat the apple. For God to explain why he didn't want them to have the knowledge of Good and Evil, he would have to give them the knowledge of Good and Evil. The concept was unknown to them.

 

 

God requires us to hate what is evil. (Romans 12:9) In that way, hate is a very justified emotion. Without it, there couldn't be a definition of love.

 

Hate what is evil. Inherently evil, not perceived evil. Man is not Inherently evil.

 

It's impossible to love yourself and love others at all times. Claiming the ability to do so is not an honest assessment of your deepest motivations and desires, imo . I hope that you are able to learn to see the way that loving yourself and loving others can rarely (if ever) be done simultaneously.

 

Why is it impossible? For me, I see why the world is in chaos. I don't believe that anyone is evil. Misguided, flawed, and blind to the world they are creating; but not evil. My motivation and desire is to bring this understanding to others.

 

I do think you're right in that becoming enslaved to the law is destructive. But attempting to operate outside the confines of the law is impossible, as is acting perfectly within the confines of the law. That's why Jesus died for our sins.

 

So, acting perfectly within the confines of the law is impossible, which means you will also act outside the confines of the law, which you also declare impossible. That's impossible.

So, your idea is that we should all erase our knowledge of good and evil? But then we'd have no free will to choose to love God and hate what is wrong. Our love would be meaningless.

 

I never said that. I'm saying that morality isn't objective truth. If you're married, do you hate everyone else of the same sex to show your love to your spouse. You're speaking nonesense. Isn't love for what God has created, showing love for God?

Edited April 18, 2013 by Thegameoflife

[pie2]

You're speaking nonesense.

 

LOL, that's probably true! Please ignore the rest, if it's nonsense

 

I'm saying that morality isn't objective truth.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if morality is objective or subjective. We exist in the confines of a society based on morals (whichever morals, whether objectively or subjectively true).

 

So, acting perfectly within the confines of the law is impossible, which means you will also act outside the confines of the law, which you also declare impossible. That's impossible.

 

No human can choose to operate outside of the confines of a society driven by morals. We can't choose to completely abandon society, or its rules (the very rules in which we were created). We can try to alter the moral code we choose to abide by. But we can't exist outside of society or the foundational rules (i.e. morals) which govern it.

 

Neither can anyone completely abide by a perfect moral code. You claim you can love yourself and others, perfectly. You said that the way to do that was to abandon the very moralist fiber that formed your entire perception of the world. I just can't buy it. :)

 

What a moral is, is judgment criteria. Right and wrong is used for nothing other than to judge an action.

 

So, let's say that one man rapes your wife (heaven forbid...this is just for the sake of discussion), and another cures your wife of cancer.

 

How do you define their actions?

Edited April 19, 2013 by pie2

[Thegameoflife]

LOL, that's probably true! Please ignore the rest, if it's nonsense

 

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter if morality is objective or subjective. We exist in the confines of a society based on morals (whichever morals, whether objectively or subjectively true).

 

 

 

No human can choose to operate outside of the confines of a society driven by morals. We can't choose to completely abandon society, or its rules (the very rules in which we were created). We can try to alter the moral code we choose to abide by. But we can't exist outside of society or the foundational rules (i.e. morals) which govern it.

 

Neither can anyone completely abide by a perfect moral code. You claim you can love yourself and others, perfectly. You said that the way to do that was to abandon the very moralist fiber that formed your entire perception of the world. I just can't buy it. :)

 

 

 

So, let's say that one man rapes your wife (heaven forbid...this is just for the sake of discussion), and another cures your wife of cancer.

 

How do you define their actions?

 

You see it as something you can't escape, a prison. You understand how morality affects people, and you even know that it can be altered. You believe you can't leave, but all you have to do is not see it as the truth. However, I fully understand that standing next to a wall where the top is out of sight, it makes sense to conclude it can't be climbed.

 

I didn't abandon moralist fiber. I never accepted it. I rejected the idea of morality as a child. I assure you I've run into issues with being amoral. I'm declaring the foundation that defines our society to be a falsity. I expect almost everyone will reject my assertion.

 

I would rather define your actions. Your question is one of trickery. The premise of your question is to get me to answer the question from a moral standpoint. You already defined their actions, one person raped, and the other cured cancer. I have no use for labeling the actions of people, as I'm not their judge.

[M30USA]

What a sack of **** from a religious crazy. we aren't in a theocracy though that's what you desire.

 

The concept of a theocracy is irrelevant to the subject here. I am confused. You sound like you have pre-fabricated cliche phrases that you unload on Christians. Take care man.