Lying

[Summer Breeze]

I think we were both coming from broken places as children a experiencing some of the same things. He presented himself as a right wing conservative (Christian) in many of his views and still does I think, but he also was a big reader of ayn rand and marshal McLuhan - outside of the normal Christian speak. One of the songs that he "gave" me during that time was from the goo goo dolls.

 

"I don't want the world to see me, cuz I don't think that they'd understand"

"When everything's made to be broken, I just want you to know who I am"

 

I never caught him any lies about anything while we were together (I'm talking about him and I directly). But after d-day and some of the conversations we had (while supposedly in nc according to our spouses), I now really question because he was in self preservation mode.

 

One in specific, my daughter (who was 22 at the time), really felt the need to meet with him and she did. She wanted to honestly know if I was just a fling to him or did he really love me (this was 4 months after d day) and so he did meet with her. His wife was aware of the meeting and apparently okayed it. What should have taken 45 minutes ended up being about four hours. My daugher called me afterwards and was crying and said "mom he's really hurting". But what was stark is that she told me he said not only did he love me and his wife, but he was trying to do the right thing and that he said I would always be first in his heart.

 

Well later when my husband found out about this meeting after a big blow up and him trying to convince me that my XMM was only after sex and it wasn't love my daugher said "no dad, that's not true, I met with him" and she proceeded to tell my husband what he had said. My husband then really got it - how deep these feelings went. He then texted my XMM's wife and told her what her husband said and asked if she knew how deep these feelings went and she answered "yes - that's why all of this is so hard"

 

Anyway all of that to say that he was confronted by his wife and someone else as to whether he really told my daugher that i would always be first in his heart and he said then that my daugher misunderstood him - he didn't say it exactly like that. My daugher swears "mom- that is EXACTLY what he said". And why would she tell me that if he didn't? there was nothing to gain by her making it up.

 

Anyway that is one example of how i know he was probably not being completely honest.

 

I don't know - even now it's confusing...and that was 3 years ago.

 

That would do it for me. To outright lie to my child is to outright lie to me. I'm curious about your daughter here and I'm sorry if it's something you've mentioned in other threads. Did she know about the A when it was happening or did she find out after it had ended? I find it surprising she'd want to meet with him but there must have been a reason. It must have been so tough for your H and xMMs W to deal with the feelings. I think it's something my dMMs xW struggled with too. How are you doing now that it's 3 years on?

[Summer Breeze]

I don't think he'll lie to me. There is no reason to. I explained to him in detail about being stingy with your promises. Don't tell me things that you are never going to be able to deliver. Accept that this IS what it is.

 

If you promised me something, and cannot deliver, tell me upfront why that is. Don't tell me things you think I want to hear. To "spare" me from disappointment. I hate that.

 

Sometimes, I can see that he's uncomfortable with questions I may ask of him. But he knows not to LIE to me. Surely he lies to his wife. To himself. Too many people out there chasing the "career" and the money and are so very empty inside. They've missed out on life. (IMHO)

 

Brutal honesty scares people.

 

One time we were talking about bikini waxing. I mentioned that my husband would notice. He was shocked! Yes, my husband sees me naked. We don't have kids. I don't cover up when I leave the shower. Why should I? To him, it was rather like he wished he didn't know that. I reminded him that he asked.

 

If he ever starts in with "I should have met you XXX years ago", I remind him that NO, that's fantasy escape thinking. Enjoy what IS. We're having an affair, and we're never going to live "happily ever after". This IS our happily ever after. He can never leave his family. Or shouldn't, is probably better to say. I don't expect him to. So it's weird to ME to think about things one can never have.....

 

I've agitated him to no end. We all have different "masks" we wear depending on where we are in society. We have to "behave" a certain way. We tend to "go along with the crowd" even when we know something not quite right. Me? I don't go out of my way to harm others with truth they don't want to hear, but if one asks me, well, that worst truth/best lie scenario plays in my head each and every time.

 

Thanks HN. Really interesting post. I so agree with the masks. I'm pretty much an open book to the people closest to me but I have some pretty clever and effective masks I've designed over the years.

 

The bolded. I wasn't M when dMM and I were in the A. I never stopped dating though. He would often ask me what I was doing on a specific night. I'd tell him I was going to meet someone for dinner, movie, and drinks. There was always this crushing silence and he was so hurt. I reminded him that I had a life as did he. If you don't want to know, don't ask. He was far more jealous of my life than I was of his. He liked brutal honesty as long as I was gentle with it! Then he found out that wasn't my style!!!

 

Thanks v much HN.

[Summer Breeze]

He never lied to me. Sometimes I found it offensive.

 

He lied to her all the time to 'protect her feelings'. I wish he would have thought of my feelings too. But yeah- we were 'BFFs' and he would spill his guts to me about everything. I had to hear about sex she initiated or offered, about how conflicted he was (his own inner happiness or his outer happiness). I was his stupid shrink. But in a way....that is why its so hard. We really could talk about everything. At least I know that he loved me more than 'any adult in the world except his mother'. I love him to this day and I'm kind of proud of him that he maintained NC. I know for a fact that it must have been SO hard for him but he needs to figure out his life and we never wanted an A though we were in the middle of one. All or nothing. That was the deal and we are sticking to it.

 

P4P

 

I like that P4P. You should be proud of him for that.

 

Question for you. Why would you let him talk to you about all of those things? Did you ever feel it was disrespectful of him to you? I have to say dMM spoke very little of his W when we were in the A. I think some of it was that he knew I didn't want to hear it and some was that we were so busy with other things she wouldn't have naturally come up in conversation.

 

I'm really proud of YOU for sticking to the NC.

[Got it]

I was having a debate with someone on another thread about MPs and lying. I thought it would be an interesting topic in itself.

 

This is really aimed at OW and OM because I don't see where BS would have the proper perspective. If there are any valid and constructive questions please feel free to ask but I really would appreciate this being held OT and civil.

 

When you entered into the A with your MAP did you have an expectation that they would lie to YOU?

 

While you were in the R did your MAP lie to you? If they did what was your reaction to it and did you confront them? Was it something major or minor? Did you ever shrug it off and say 'well they lie to their BS so it's totally expected and acceptable for them to lie to me'?

 

I may have been some sort of idiot but I never expect people to lie to me. If they do then the consequences are pretty swift and severe tbh. I am always amazed with people who assume an OW/OM goes into the R with an expectation or acceptance about MAPs lying.

 

Please do keep it civil. Thanks

 

No, I don't believe that behavior with one person necessarily transcends towards others. They can but it is an absolute. And I just took my behavior and thought process and assumed it to him (with communication, etc.). I didn't like to him even though I did lie to my ex husband. I had no reason to lie to dMM, the perimeters and circumstances were different. That was what was so freeing about the affair especially in the beginning. I could be brutally completely honest because who cared!?! It was the first relationship where I was 100% me, I didn't tailor or exhibit one piece over another, I tried me fully on for size because of the nature of the relationship. So it was amazing to be accepted and LIKED for being me. Not me but less sex drive, or less argumentative, or more congenial, or not 100% Got it.

 

He likes me, warts and all. Who would have thought it?

[lilmisscantbewrong]

That would do it for me. To outright lie to my child is to outright lie to me. I'm curious about your daughter here and I'm sorry if it's something you've mentioned in other threads. Did she know about the A when it was happening or did she find out after it had ended? I find it surprising she'd want to meet with him but there must have been a reason. It must have been so tough for your H and xMMs W to deal with the feelings. I think it's something my dMMs xW struggled with too. How are you doing now that it's 3 years on?

 

My daughter didn't know about the affair while it was going on (no one did although some were suspicious and obviously both our spouses were or there wouldn't have been two d-days), but afterwards, even hurt and upset - hurt that her dad was hurting, I was hurting, my xmm was hurting - she was the one of my three children that could truly see all sides and she loved us all (she thinks his bs is manipulative but that's another story). She took it on herself to contact him and set up a meeting because she wanted to hear from him - did he really love me or was I just another piece of a$$. He had been such an integral part of all of our lives, she felt betrayed by him as well.

 

When they met, as I said before, what should have been a 45 minute meeting turned into a 4 hour one. She called me she was sobbing and said "mom he is really hurting". He told her I would always be first in his heart always. But when my husband got wind of that he reported that information to a "pastor" who was a sort of accountability person for him and his wife and my xmm spinned it and said "well that wasn't exactly what I said". My daughter was adamant - she said "Mom that is EXACTLY what he said". The thing is, she had absolutely no reason to make that up. All children want their parents to stay together, so to tell me something that might give me a glimmer of hope and lie about it - that is highly unlikely so I believe what my daughter said was true. Mind you this was only 4 months after D-day and emotions were still running high, so I'm sure in some ways he was trying to pacify both sides, but that (amongst a few other things) was enough for me to know he would say whatever he could to save his a$$.

 

You know, I am good and quite strong today (now over 3 years out), but I have my days. It's so hard to think I had the weakness to fall in love with someone who was really playing both sides very well. He was really a cad to both me and his wife. I can try all I want to paint him as this horrible, horrible man - it would be so much easier to forget him. But I can't do that - try as I might...it really sucks sometimes.

Edited April 15, 2013 by lilmisscantbewrong

[Summer Breeze]

My daughter didn't know about the affair while it was going on (no one did although some were suspicious and obviously both our spouses were or there wouldn't have been two d-days), but afterwards, even hurt and upset - hurt that her dad was hurting, I was hurting, my xmm was hurting - she was the one of my three children that could truly see all sides and she loved us all (she thinks his bs is manipulative but that's another story). She took it on herself to contact him and set up a meeting because she wanted to hear from him - did he really love me or was I just another piece of a$$. He had been such an integral part of all of our lives, she felt betrayed by him as well.

 

When they met, as I said before, what should have been a 45 minute meeting turned into a 4 hour one. She called me she was sobbing and said "mom he is really hurting". He told her I would always be first in his heart always. But when my husband got wind of that he reported that information to a "pastor" who was a sort of accountability person for him and his wife and my xmm spinned it and said "well that wasn't exactly what I said". My daughter was adamant - she said "Mom that is EXACTLY what he said". The thing is, she had absolutely no reason to make that up. All children want their parents to stay together, so to tell me something that might give me a glimmer of hope and lie about it - that is highly unlikely so I believe what my daughter said was true. Mind you this was only 4 months after D-day and emotions were still running high, so I'm sure in some ways he was trying to pacify both sides, but that (amongst a few other things) was enough for me to know he would say whatever he could to save his a$$.

 

You know, I am good and quite strong today (now over 3 years out), but I have my days. It's so hard to think I had the weakness to fall in love with someone who was really playing both sides very well. He was really a cad to both me and his wife. I can try all I want to paint him as this horrible, horrible man - it would be so much easier to forget him. But I can't do that - try as I might...it really sucks sometimes.

 

I tell you what. It sounds like you have an amazing D. I hope you, your H, and your kids are getting back on track from all of it and doing well. Thanks v much for talking about this.

[Summer Breeze]

Yes, I had all expectations that MM would lie to me when I entered the A particularly because of the circumstances which it began. As time passed (much, much time), I felt he was less likely to lie to me (i mean outside of the small lies we all tell) simply because I felt he had/I gave him no reason too. So, I didn't expect him to in that sense. However, I never thought he was incapable or impossible of lying to me in areas that would matter. So in that sense, I expected it because of his continued demonstration of deceitful, unremorseful behavior during the A and towards the W. It's kinda like an animal that attacks after years of performing without incident. It may not have been expected as it wasn't the common occurrence of the situation, but OTOH you couldn't not expect it as it is still a wild animal with primal instinct. I knew xMM had it in him (the lying and deceit), it was more of a matter of will, when, and/or how it will come out. More of a probability : possibility equation, but always a chance.

 

xMM lied both out-right and in exaggeration. There are incidents when he didn't honor his word (shocking) or when I felt his statements/feelings about certain things weren't completely truthful/genuine (most of importance to me). A lot of it came down to his actions not matching his words (he however had a different view). I confronted him on a few occasions (some resulting in a break-up or two), but normally I just kept file (keeping mental tabs is usually how I work) until the overwhelming abundance caused me to finally say and mean "I'm done".

 

I think xMM thought (to some degree or on certain occasions) that he was actually "getting over" on me in a sense. That statement is not a reflection, but something I was aware of during the A. I think these realizations, the skepticism, and distrust I always held simply because he was cheating shielded me from the majority of distress experienced by some. I just never felt the "living in a fog/bubble" effect so there really wasn't a sudden and unbelievable jolt to it being lifted/burst to crawl back from. It was more like dropping to the basement from the first floor instead of from the penthouse.

 

I always love your posts. I must say your analogy to a wild animal eventually attacking is dead on for most cases. It's a great analogy too.

 

Your last few lines really ring true for me. I loved him but I had a 1 floor drop too because he didn't ever promise anything. I didn't feel any sort of bubble in any way shape or form either to be honest. Mine was probably because he didn't lie whereas yours was because you didn't allow yourself to trust him fully. I've been thinking about this most of the morning. I think that's been something recurring for me since my xH cheated. I've never fully trusted anyone and I've never allowed myself to get into a situation where I haven't had a good portion of the control and power. I always thought that was me being smart. I'm looking now and wondering if that was me doing nothing but avoiding hurt. Is that smart or cowardly? Maybe both.

 

Thanks Skylar. I really appreciate your input.

[HonestNeurotic]

I always love your posts. I must say your analogy to a wild animal eventually attacking is dead on for most cases. It's a great analogy too.

 

Your last few lines really ring true for me. I loved him but I had a 1 floor drop too because he didn't ever promise anything. I didn't feel any sort of bubble in any way shape or form either to be honest. Mine was probably because he didn't lie whereas yours was because you didn't allow yourself to trust him fully. I've been thinking about this most of the morning. I think that's been something recurring for me since my xH cheated. I've never fully trusted anyone and I've never allowed myself to get into a situation where I haven't had a good portion of the control and power. I always thought that was me being smart. I'm looking now and wondering if that was me doing nothing but avoiding hurt. Is that smart or cowardly? Maybe both.

 

Thanks Skylar. I really appreciate your input.

 

Ahhhh.....great point. See, just because he doesn't LIE to me, doesn't necessarily mean that I TRUST him. Or anyone totally. Except my husband.

 

I've discussed what happens when he gets caught and it has to end. How he'll probably "throw me under the bus". Cuz he'll have to, to save his marriage. Which of course he's all "I'm not giving you up". I don't really consider that a LIE, cuz we really dunno what we'll do until a situation confronts us directly. Especially if it is something that we've never experienced before.

 

Conflict avoidance. I know that one. "I'm a runner not a fighter" is one of my mantras. I learned it at a very early age, and really didn't understand that was what I was doing until about 15 years ago. Discerning when I need to work through the conflict or even if the conflict is MINE has been difficult for me. I kinda have this "If you can't deal with me, then get the &^$% away from me, cuz I don't exist to make you miserable".

 

I think we lie ("we" meaning most humans) because we feel that we would be inflicting pain on another. We don't want to hurt others. We want to avoid conflict. We don't want to be rejected for exposing our true feelings. Smart or cowardly? I can't say that it's cowardly to not put 100% trust in another human being. It's only cowardly when you don't own your own actions, or make excuses for them, placing the blame on another.

[AnotherRound]

Interesting thread. I never thought that my exMM was lying to me - and as time goes on, everything he has said has checked out. Other than that first initial "no, I'm not married" and the conversation that followed it, there has never been another lie by omission or on purpose. And, it's nice to see as this all plays out that he has, in fact, been very very honest with me about himself, his marriage, and his feelings.

 

On the other hand, others in my life (SG included) have not struck me as the "type" to lie, and yet, have been liars. So, for me, I take each situation on its own merit - and don't have an all encompassing idea that every WS lies - or that every SG does not lie bc they aren't a WS. I give people a chance to show me their character, and go from there.

 

I was always pretty confident that exMM was being honest with me - as our conversations knew no bounds. We talked about everything, and very openly, and shared things with each other that neither of our spouses (my first marriage from a long time ago) ever knew. It was an openness that I understand is not present in many relationships, but one that I would have no other way. The honesty is liberating, and imo, builds a very strong bond between two people - that there is no need to lie to one another, that we are putting all of our cards on the table with no game playing or mind effing. It builds a strong connection emotionally.

 

So, the fact that things are showing themselves now, after exMMs D, to be exactly as he said they were is just kind of the other 1% of doubt being melted away. I was 99% sure, now I'm 100% sure. And the only reason I had the 1% doubt in the first place was from reading from others that are on a warpath to convince me that exMM HAS to be a liar bc he was a WS at one point in his life.

[Summer Breeze]

Thanks to you all for your responses and for anyone who was looking to jump in and derail it but refrained.

[crederer]

They're all lying in some shape or form. Whether a direct lie or omitting information. But most of the time, the OM/OW are looking at things through rose coloured glasses. I truly don't mean this as an insult, but I think most people who are willingly involved with a married partner, they have some deep rooted issues that need to be worked out.