Reasons why they can't leave

[Finally Settled]

Yes. The lying and sneaking around IS irrational and stupid. Divorcing? That is a decision made after much thought - at least for thinking people.

 

 

For some of us that entails much more thinking than it does others. I thought about it for ten years before I had my affair, two years while I was in my affair, and a further four years while I failed at reconciling with my exwife.

 

I do agree with you that the lying and sneaking were not only irrational and stupid, but cruel as well. With the benefit of hindsight I see how my actions were all of those things. Over the last year my therapist and I have dissected my decisions from that time and what seemed like the most unreasonable option was, in fact, the most sensible. I make no excuses for what I've done, but I understand why I chose my path as I did and I have now learned from it. My sorrow is for the people I hurt along the way with my poor decisions and actions.

 

I also understand that the way I thought then is the way many think in similar situations, and for a multitude of reasons both shared with the likes of me and unique to themselves.

[Got it]

Okay you guys, enough with the veiled pot shots.

 

It can be the issue on both ends. It really is an individual decision and it is fluid. What and how we prioritize things can change on a daily basis and one external event can completely revamp an already designed plan or solidify musings.

 

There are MANY reasons why people do what they do especially in things as complex as romantic relationships. There are a host of external experiences that all play up to those adult relationships and that is why I cannot stress enough counseling for someone who feels, that for whatever reason, they are "stuck" in a decision making process, or not happy to deep dive why it is and what they can do.

 

We get one go around at this world (differing religious views aside) so we should all try and do what we feel is the best decisions. We all have different perspectives on that, but as long as the individual is at peace with it then that is all one can ask. And being human means one will make mistakes, and as the saying goes we do not learn from our successes but by our mistakes, we take these opportunities to grow and we learn from them and do not waste them repeating the same mistakes.

[Decorative]

this is all good, what you say does make a lot of sense, and the counseling piece is an excellent idea that I think more people should partake of...

 

but...

 

ultimately, the ones who have to pay the price for these mistakes all too often get zero say in it...they get ( excuse my language please) screwed over, and saying it was a "mistake" sometimes doesn't make it all better or even any easier...al too often, these people have had their lives turned upside down and heir choices taken away by the mistakes of others...

 

This is really, really important.

 

Everyone grows from mistakes. For sure.

 

But deliberate choices that harm other people aren't so much a growth experience for the injured party. They are an injury inflicted upon them, without cause, that takes years, if ever to recover from.

 

And I think people forget that. Sometimes.

 

Personal "mistakes" that hurt just yourself ? Make as many as you'd like.

 

Choices that harm others? Aren't the same.

[Finally Settled]

I would be suspect of a therapist sanctioning bad decisions made by the person who pays them. I get how a therapist needs to pussyfoot around issues at times, lest they put off their client and lose their business.

I don't believe I said she sanctioned them, and in fact she did not. We dissected my decisions and her position was to remain neutral and allow me to come to my own conclusions on my behaviour and thoughts. My therapist was not one for pussyfooting around issues, and I am not one for paying people for unrequired services.

 

Your therapist does that for you.

I respectfully ask how you have come to this conclusion.

 

And if one learns to not hurt people in similar fashion in the future, that's all one can hope for.

That is exactly why I have spent more than a year in various forms of therapy and support. I never want to do to another what I have done to my exwife.

 

 

I get how a person who is very young and not had many life experiences could screw up, so to speak, because we all learn more about ourselves and are more apt to question our motives and decisions prior to jumping in with both feet. Youngsters are usually much more impulsive.

 

I have read of too many situations where a MP leads their AP on for many many MANY years, and in nearly every case they don't leave the M. Ever. But the excuses (aka reasons) are plentiful.

 

 

My responses are above in bold. I believe the last two paragraphs are meant for posters in general, and not directed strictly to me.

[So happy together]

if it was the betrayed spouse who was the drinker, I expect that he/she would be seen as the jackass of the year...put the wayward spouse in there, and all of a sudden, he's a sympathetic hero

 

Actually, no. I stated that my bf's stbxw is a drunk. I was asked by several people if my bf caused her to begin drinking. What did he do to drive her to it? had she been a drinker always?

 

So not always true.

[MissBee]

So what I've learned (jk, already knew) from this discussion is that:

 

People stay where they want to be, happily or unhappily.

 

They may feel like they are stuck, even if they in fact aren't.

 

They may feel like they are sacrificing, whether or not this is true.

 

It takes courage and is a risk to leave the safety of the known for the unknown or for possible discomfort, so staying is easier.

 

Their reasons may be valid or invalid.

 

However what remains is: they are staying put.

 

In the context of As....I don't see how any of these reasons helps the OW/OM though if the bottomline is the person will stay put.

 

The reasons are valid for the WS. Those choices are about their interests and fears....not the OW/OM's....so in the A context, do any of these reasons matter and make an OW/OM feel better?

Edited April 24, 2013 by MissBee

[Decorative]

In the im's I read he always told her that he still loved me. I know at the start my H said to me we would still be best friends (ha). I told him no, we would not. We would not have anything to do with each other again. He would no longer be a part of my life and I would never again be a part of his. He said this made him sad and he didn't want to go the rest of his life never seeing me again. I guess he had to make a choice on who he could and couldn't live without the rest of his life. Perhaps that was some of the reason he couldn't leave.

 

That was part of what I said as well. As I kicked him out- my letter wished him well, happiness with her, but I told him our private relationship was over. In every way.

[Finally Settled]

How I came to the conclusion that your therapist makes excuses for you?

 

"Over the last year my therapist and I have dissected my decisions from that time and what seemed like the most unreasonable option was, in fact, the most sensible." Somewhere you got the notion that cheating was "sensible." If it wasn't from your discussions with your therapis, then I stand corrected.

 

It was indeed from discussions with my therapist, but my therapist never drew me to conclusions.

 

Let me explain what I meant by this. When I chose to pursue the affair I was firm that I would not leave my marriage. There were many reasons that seemed incredibly important and valid to me at that time and I was blinded by them all, so much so that the option of leaving wasn't actually an option, in my mind. With the way my mind was working at that time the unreasonable option of infidelity seemed to me to be the most sensible. Trust me when I say I was not seeing the situation with any logic at all. At that moment in time that is what I told myself was my most sensible option---to keep my world intact and to cheat on my wife.

 

My therapist was happy that I finally saw the ridiculousness of my thought process at that point in time. She drove home the incredible selfishness of my reasoning as well. She held my feet to the fire and made no excuses for me at all.

 

I hope that helps to clarify a little. Thank you jja470.

[So happy together]

Great post.......simple but true.

 

The perhaps bigger question a ow/om ought to ask themselves is what is an acceptable time for waiting on the mm/mw to leave. 3 months, 6 months, a year, several years? As MissBee says the reasons/excuses don't really matter if you are putting your life on hold waiting on someone..........and before people start with the......... but I don't want him to leave for me or it's not the kind of affair where I want him/her to leave, then this scenario of waiting doesn't apply.

 

So if you are putting your life on hold and you are obsessing about why it isn't happening, ask yourself how long you are willing to wait. Aren't you better than that, don't you deserve more?

 

This is a good point. I actually did this. Last August I told him he had until this coming August to be out of the house and have the D well underway. He left long before then, but if he hadn't left by the time we had agreed upon, I would have ended it. I am not one that is happy to be OW. I know there are many who are, and that is okay. It just wasn't me.

 

But again, if he hadn't done what we agreed, I would have walked.

[Finally Settled]

That does help.

 

What I drew from it as well as the rest of the discussions on this thread are that there are no reasons - they are excuses. Whether they be due to someone's effed up thought process, they are still excuses. And cheating is incredibly selfish. It's good that some insight was gained into that through your counseling.

 

Think spring! Here's a bunny for ya! --->

 

I graciously accept the bunny!

 

I will agree with most of what you have said in this response. I agree that any reason to enter into an affair is an excuse. I do believe that there are often valid reasons for staying in a marriage. I do believe that financial, familial, historical, and health are valid reasons. Of course one can leave a marriage even with such reasons, but many would choose not to.

 

I'm off to get a carrot for my new bunny.

[Got it]

Great post.......simple but true.

 

The perhaps bigger question a ow/om ought to ask themselves is what is an acceptable time for waiting on the mm/mw to leave. 3 months, 6 months, a year, several years? As MissBee says the reasons/excuses don't really matter if you are putting your life on hold waiting on someone..........and before people start with the......... but I don't want him to leave for me or it's not the kind of affair where I want him/her to leave, then this scenario of waiting doesn't apply.

 

So if you are putting your life on hold and you are obsessing about why it isn't happening, ask yourself how long you are willing to wait. Aren't you better than that, don't you deserve more?

 

And this is what I did. We had a drawn up agreement stating the timeline, and other items of consideration necessary to a happy relationship between us, communication, conflict resolution, etc. We had a multi-hour conversation, I recapped it in writing, sent to him for any clarification and that was my baseline for our relationship. I wanted it clearly laid out the pieces that were important to me/us and so limiting the ability to say later on, "I didn't know" or "I don't remember".

 

So I gave the timeline one year. One year with other expectations was necessary for me to be his mistress at all. If the expectations were not hit up to and including leaving then I would walk away. And I did walk away as dday hit at the year mark and I was done with the arrangement. At that point he was at a crossroads, and without me in his life, needed to decide what was the best course of action for himself. I was walking and if he caught up in enough time that I was still interested, great, but it was his gamble at that point as my concessions had expired.

[Praying4Peace]

And this is what I did. We had a drawn up agreement stating the timeline, and other items of consideration necessary to a happy relationship between us, communication, conflict resolution, etc. We had a multi-hour conversation, I recapped it in writing, sent to him for any clarification and that was my baseline for our relationship. I wanted it clearly laid out the pieces that were important to me/us and so limiting the ability to say later on, "I didn't know" or "I don't remember".

 

So I gave the timeline one year. One year with other expectations was necessary for me to be his mistress at all. If the expectations were not hit up to and including leaving then I would walk away. And I did walk away as dday hit at the year mark and I was done with the arrangement. At that point he was at a crossroads, and without me in his life, needed to decide what was the best course of action for himself. I was walking and if he caught up in enough time that I was still interested, great, but it was his gamble at that point as my concessions had expired.

 

What happened then? Did you go NC to heal?

[thefooloftheyear]

And this is what I did. We had a drawn up agreement stating the timeline, and other items of consideration necessary to a happy relationship between us, communication, conflict resolution, etc. We had a multi-hour conversation, I recapped it in writing, sent to him for any clarification and that was my baseline for our relationship. I wanted it clearly laid out the pieces that were important to me/us and so limiting the ability to say later on, "I didn't know" or "I don't remember".

 

So I gave the timeline one year. One year with other expectations was necessary for me to be his mistress at all. If the expectations were not hit up to and including leaving then I would walk away. And I did walk away as dday hit at the year mark and I was done with the arrangement. At that point he was at a crossroads, and without me in his life, needed to decide what was the best course of action for himself. I was walking and if he caught up in enough time that I was still interested, great, but it was his gamble at that point as my concessions had expired.

 

Thats a good way of handling it...

 

 

Did you lose interest because the "timeline" wasnt met or you "just wasnt going to do it anymore"? Also, at that point is it over and done with? meaning if he is divorced, say, 6 months from now would you then reconsider? I would imagine he might not want back in at that point, maybe he got annoyed that you wouldnt wait and held it against you?

 

I would imagine that is a real tough call. If you are still in love and dont really want to end it, then its going to hurt. I could see how you might second guess it at that point...

 

TFY

Edited April 24, 2013 by thefooloftheyear

[Got it]

This is really, really important.

 

Everyone grows from mistakes. For sure.

 

But deliberate choices that harm other people aren't so much a growth experience for the injured party. They are an injury inflicted upon them, without cause, that takes years, if ever to recover from.

 

And I think people forget that. Sometimes.

 

Personal "mistakes" that hurt just yourself ? Make as many as you'd like.

 

Choices that harm others? Aren't the same.

 

Very true and unfortunately a lot of mistakes made by people due end up hurting others. That is just the nature of human mistakes, there is almost always "collateral damage". I am not saying this to minimize the hurt the injured party feels.

 

How many people discuss their issues from childhood? How many as adults deal with the mistakes of their parents? I think MANY of us do, but I don't think most parents do it with ill and conscious intent. They too are repeating patterns taught to them and are somewhat blinded by their past experiences and emotional state.

 

I know I have been very candid with my folks the repercussions from their issues. The lessons they taught to us. And they are upset by it and are sorry for anything negative. But I understand that their intentions were never bad, they didn't think "what can I do to little Got It today", but were blinded by their own thoughts, experiences, and emotions and were not self aware enough to see the trauma being inflicted upon me/us and if they did see minimized it.

 

I know Miss Bee speaks heavily the life lessons her parents, especially her dad, taught her.

 

I know that my eating disorder, codependency, quick temper, and Type A control freak with a guilt complex personality is tied to my childhood. I can focus today on how I have had to address these issues, how they have impacted my life so much or I can look at it on what I have succeeded despite them, what I have learned from them, and how it has made me stronger. I have tried to take the philosophy discussed here and take what I can and leave the rest. The best perspective I have tried to use, because if I didn't I think at times I would have been in fetal position, is to try and find at least one tiny tiny silver lining to make it not so awful and traumatizing. That if I can glean one lesson from all of it then I am taking some sort of control over it and flipping it.

 

Okay, I am done rambling as I have had this post interrupted a few times and I am afraid my train of thought where I started and now where I ended may have gotten lost along the way.

 

You are absolutely right, it isn't fair, it isn't right and it isn't just to be someone's collateral damage with their mistakes. Unfortunately having people in your world opens up that possibility.

[Got it]

Thats a good way of handling it...

 

 

Did you lose interest because the "timeline" wasnt met or you "just wasnt going to do it anymore"? Also, at that point is it over and done with? meaning if he is divorced, say, 6 months from now would you then reconsider? I would imagine he might not want back in at that point, maybe he got annoyed that you wouldnt wait and held it against you?

 

I would imagine that is a real tough call. If you are still in love and dont really want to end it, then its going to hurt. I could see how you might second guess it at that point...

 

TFY

 

I was myopic on the timeline, I gave a few extra weeks (because I am nothing if not accommodating ) and when dday hit and I saw deers in the headlight I threw in the towel. At that point I wasn't interested in being a party to it any longer. I was never in it for a long haul, I was a HOW because I knew the perimeters, I knew my expectations, and I knew my dealbreakers, so during that time, while I did have a few lovely mistress meltdowns, I was good. But I was in it for him, if "him" wasn't happening then I was going to go it sans him.

 

He separated about . . . . 3-4 months later? Somewhere in there. He has said that really realized how much he loved me when I was gone, how much I meant to him and how much he didn't want to lose me. So, no, didn't hold it against me and hell would have had no fury like me if he had.

 

And we are married now.

 

Okay, maybe a morbid analogy but I have animals and so this just worked for me. There is a saying/belief, that when having to determine if you are going to put an animal down, it is better to do it a day early than a day late because you would rather minimize the suffer and the lack of quality of life by cutting it short early? Well I had somewhat of the same view on this relationship, and relationship in general. I am not one to want to stay in a relationship, beating it into the ground and into a bloody pulp to make sure it is dead dead if I can help it. I rather walked away a day early, before we could hate each other, and just go like that, then get to a point where we hated each other.

 

That was my view with my ex husband. I don't hate him, I never hated him, I just realized that we weren't going to mesh, we were a square peg and round hole and we gave it our all but it had been limping a long for awhile. And I realized the silver lining that we didn't have kids like I wanted because I could see us staying in it longer, for the kids, and start having resentment building up, fighting, hating each other and all that ugly mess. And that last year, for me, resentment was starting to build.

 

Listen, I know I don't do thinks perfectly most of the time, and probably don't do things well even some of the time, but my goal has never been to hurt anyone. I don't like hurting people, I don't want to make anyone sad, anger, or unhappy. I do try and do things the best way possible, and, for me, I overcompensated my people pleasing too much, doing too much for people and so the pendulum swung back with the affair and I recall thinking "this is the first purely selfish thing I have ever done for myself". And so I went with it. And got a boatload of lessons out of the process. So now I work on my pendulum sitting in the middle, with a little swing, but no more one end of the spectrum or the other.

[Decorative]

Yes......even your signature says you did. Your posts say so, also.

 

This recent one even says you did, "That doesn't mean you have to give up on him. True love means you stay by him."

 

I'm not pulling this out of my arse and making it up flowers, it's in black and white here on LS.

 

Word.

 

Or words.

 

Flowers- check your own signature out, and your posting history. We are reacting to what you have stated.

 

Unless what you have been saying isn't true? And your siggie line is a falsehood?

 

We can only take you at your word.

[Decorative]

You are pulling it out of your arse. It's your interpretation of my words, nothing more. You believing it doesn't make it true.

 

Wait, what?!?

 

What's to interpret about your words?

 

They are clear. Perfectly.

[WakingUp]

I think that flowers means that she hasn't been WAITING for seven years... that she has been enjoying her life for seven years, and that there has been a lot more to it than what she would call "waiting"".

 

To say she has been waiting implies that not much else has been happening, perhaps.

 

Anyway that's how I saw it.

[whichwayisup]

I think that flowers means that she hasn't been WAITING for seven years... that she has been enjoying her life for seven years, and that there has been a lot more to it than what she would call "waiting"".

 

To say she has been waiting implies that not much else has been happening, perhaps.

 

Anyway that's how I saw it.

 

At the end of the day, sure she's "living her life" but she is still is 'waiting' while with him for 7 years. Doesn't change the fact this guy has had 7 years to make a decision, shi.t or get off the pot, choose one woman...His actions show he likes two women and likes what each brings. That's fine if she (or any other woman) is OK with that status quo, but sooner or later that has to get old especially if an OW is looking to settle down, start a family of their own.. Throwing away so many precious years for someone who isn't divorcing isn't good either..

[heartinlove]

I was myopic on the timeline, I gave a few extra weeks (because I am nothing if not accommodating ) and when dday hit and I saw deers in the headlight I threw in the towel. At that point I wasn't interested in being a party to it any longer. I was never in it for a long haul, I was a HOW because I knew the perimeters, I knew my expectations, and I knew my dealbreakers, so during that time, while I did have a few lovely mistress meltdowns, I was good. But I was in it for him, if "him" wasn't happening then I was going to go it sans him.

 

He separated about . . . . 3-4 months later? Somewhere in there. He has said that really realized how much he loved me when I was gone, how much I meant to him and how much he didn't want to lose me. So, no, didn't hold it against me and hell would have had no fury like me if he had.

 

And we are married now.

 

HI Got it. Im curious did you two speak during the 3-4 months before he separated? Also during that time were you hoping he came back or were you doing your best to move on?

 

I do appreciate the perspective of how long do you wait that you have LadyGrey as well as others. I think in the end everyone finds their own answer to that one. I don't think many women have the ability to be on the sidelines for that long but if you're happy and it works so be it. For me, Im not happy being the OW, never really was for many reasons.

 

I do hear over and over again though that only if the ow has the courage to walk away only then will the MM really make a decision. Until then they kinda have what they need and don't have to face their fears. But when they are left with just the marriage then it seems many make a real choice. Curious what others think of that. Maybe Ill start a new thread.

 

This thread has talked alot about the courage or lack there of that the MM have to face their fears and leave their marriages if thats what they want. But there is also the subject of the OW having the courage to leave a situation that is not really what she wants and to face the unknown and to trust that if MM really has it in him to leave his marriage he will find his way without the ow being in the picture. Thats where Im at now. Trying to really get the wisdom of that and act accordingly.

[MissBee]

Great post.......simple but true.

 

The perhaps bigger question a ow/om ought to ask themselves is what is an acceptable time for waiting on the mm/mw to leave. 3 months, 6 months, a year, several years? As MissBee says the reasons/excuses don't really matter if you are putting your life on hold waiting on someone

 

Yea!

 

I think we've belabored the point of "why", I'm at the point where I'm interested in the "Now what?" We already discussed every and all reasons, from the valid to the very questionable, now what ? What's next for an OW/OM who is hearing these reasons?

[MissBee]

Obviously a man who loves one woman but stays with another has some issues he needs to work on. That doesn't mean you have to give up on him. True love means you stay by him.

 

One cannot know true love without self-love.

 

I have no clue whether or not your 7 year wait was healthy or not, although, I have my opinions, but for most, it won't be.

 

I think it is a dangerous fallacy to believe "true love" means putting up with anything and waiting indefinitely. That can also be true desperation or true enabling.

 

True love and certainly self-love, sometimes means walking away.

[MissBee]

At the end of the day, sure she's "living her life" but she is still is 'waiting' while with him for 7 years. Doesn't change the fact this guy has had 7 years to make a decision, shi.t or get off the pot, choose one woman...His actions show he likes two women and likes what each brings. That's fine if she (or any other woman) is OK with that status quo, but sooner or later that has to get old especially if an OW is looking to settle down, start a family of their own.. Throwing away so many precious years for someone who isn't divorcing isn't good either..

 

I meant to say...waiting does not literally mean you quit your job, throw away your friends, buy some cats and sit watching the clock of MM's choice .

 

My friend was in an almost 5 years A...waiting for him to decide to divorce and marry her. In that time she did lots of things, traveled around the world, had fun, had a life, is a doctoral candidate, formed an organization etc. None of that had anything to do with the fact that in her love life, she was waiting for her married boyfriend to do something different and waiting to decide on certain other choices in her life based on him. He never did though, but thankfully she broke it off with him in January and has been dating a great single guy...and now she is no longer waiting.

[Decorative]

I think that flowers means that she hasn't been WAITING for seven years... that she has been enjoying her life for seven years, and that there has been a lot more to it than what she would call "waiting"".

 

To say she has been waiting implies that not much else has been happening, perhaps.

 

Anyway that's how I saw it.

 

But she still has been dating a married man for 7 years before he took any action.

 

To me- she's attempting to obscure it was a semantic argument.

 

The point is- according to her signature and previous posts- she has been entangled with a married man for 7 years. He now is getting ( but not gotten ?) his own place, and reportedly did not throw her "under the bus".

 

And she encourages other women to "stand by" their men and don't give up.

 

To me? And I suspect many others- those two phrases suggest a long period of time of standing by "her" man before anything might have actually happened.

 

So if she doesn't technically consider it waiting? Fine.

 

She stood by for 7 years. Just like she is encouraging others to do.

 

#whereisthatbrick

[Got it]

HI Got it. Im curious did you two speak during the 3-4 months before he separated? Also during that time were you hoping he came back or were you doing your best to move on?

 

I do appreciate the perspective of how long do you wait that you have LadyGrey as well as others. I think in the end everyone finds their own answer to that one. I don't think many women have the ability to be on the sidelines for that long but if you're happy and it works so be it. For me, Im not happy being the OW, never really was for many reasons.

 

I do hear over and over again though that only if the ow has the courage to walk away only then will the MM really make a decision. Until then they kinda have what they need and don't have to face their fears. But when they are left with just the marriage then it seems many make a real choice. Curious what others think of that. Maybe Ill start a new thread.

 

This thread has talked alot about the courage or lack there of that the MM have to face their fears and leave their marriages if thats what they want. But there is also the subject of the OW having the courage to leave a situation that is not really what she wants and to face the unknown and to trust that if MM really has it in him to leave his marriage he will find his way without the ow being in the picture. Thats where Im at now. Trying to really get the wisdom of that and act accordingly.

 

Yes we spoke a few times. I was trying my best to move on, I did start dating (disaster but I did try and funny stories ) but yes I was trying my best to move on kind of faking it until I made it. I am not going to lie, it was hard, I was miserable at times, LOTS of crying, journaling, but I was moving forward.

 

3-4 months is not enough time to really lose hope but regardless of whether or not I had hope, my logical brain told me that I needed to put one foot in front of the other. It was mind over matter or should I say emotion.

 

Every relationship is different and I never really felt on the sidelines. I had my life, my work, family and friends, and he was around a lot. There really weren't limitations on contacting or hiding in public. I knew some of his friends, we traveled, overnights, etc. It was set up in a very similar fashion as I would have had dating anyone.