Dday 19

[2sunny]

Dr. Kekuni Minton - Salida and Boulder Colorado Psychotherapy

 

And

 

PTSD & The Brain | Heal My PTSD

 

I've worked with one of the top trauma counselors in the nation - yes, adults have MANY brain and physical changes that appear during traumatic situations.

 

Ask any marine after they return from combat...

 

Ask any betrayed spouse.

 

Ask the folks who were in Boston yesterday.

[AnotherRound]

Dr. Kekuni Minton - Salida and Boulder Colorado Psychotherapy

 

And

 

PTSD & The Brain | Heal My PTSD

 

I've worked with one of the top trauma counselors in the nation - yes, adults have MANY brain and physical changes that appear during traumatic situations.

 

Ask any marine after they return from combat...

 

Ask any betrayed spouse.

 

Ask the folks who were in Boston yesterday.

 

I agree with consistent and continuous trauma - but I don't think that I buy that one instance of trauma causes the same thing. Sorry - it just seems really farfetched. Could it for certain people? Sure - but I would consider that an extreme reaction - not the "norm" per se.

 

And yes, I'm serious - not everyone sees infidelity as trauma. Just like some people can kill people in combat and have zero trauma from that - others can't. We are all different, our thresholds are all different - we all process differently - and one thing that is traumatic to you may not even be a blip on the radar to someone else. Some people are desensitized to certain things that would cause others severe trauma reactions - that is just the difference in people.

 

There are levels of trauma- dependent on the trauma and on how the person internalizes and processes it. I can experience the exact same thing as you and have a completely different reaction. You might have trauma, I might not - otherwise, EVERY SINGLE soldier in the history of time would have PTSD - and they don't. Some do, some don't... it's understandable when they do - but what is mystifying is why some don't.

 

Thanks for the links... I will check them out asap. I haven't been able to find anything in peer reviewed sources. And EMDR is not an "accepted" (as in, empirical evidenced) therapy - or everyone would be using it. It is still pretty controversial and will continue to be until there are some studies that can back up its claims - which so far, just aren't there. It might pass the test, it might not - at this point, it's hard to tell (a lot of the scientific community are leaning towards it NOT passing the empirical data tests). So, that isn't really a credible reference - but thanks, I'll read it anyway.

[2sunny]

And some folks cover up the trauma - only to have it show evidence of how traumatic it was - later on.

 

 

What you really did was use my words differently in your post.

 

 

I would think, with your back ground - you'd have an extensive idea about how trauma affects the brain - and thus, the emotional well being of people.

 

Some recover - some just carry the baggage around as depression and such - that's evidenced by the number of Americans on anti depressants!!!

 

Oh no!!! Lets not deal with the pain and anger - lets just cover it up by taking pills to change the brain chemistry and make the patient numb!

 

 

:rolleyes:

[2sunny]

This is good info

 

 

Emotional and Psychological Trauma: Causes, Symptoms, Help

[seren]

Infidelity can indeed have elements of PTSD, for many BS. Those who are blindsided experience many of the characteristics of trauma, some don't, but undoubtedly some do, I have had a serious car accident, lost family, survived rape and sexual abuse and can tell you, hand on heart, that infidelity had a greater effect on my wellbeing than any of the others. It might not be that way for others, but for me, that is how it was. Sethanne Howard and Mark W. Crandall, MD discuss at length how the effects of PTSD can have real changes to brain chemistry. My H had severe combat PTSD, part of which resulted in his A. Prior to my experience of infidelity I might have found it hard to equate betrayal to PTSD, but after it happened to me, I realised that all my years of supporting people to survive traumatic life events I hadn't really understood, so while I understand the need for research validation, IRL experience changed my view.

 

Hi WF, lovely to see you, hope all is well and your garden is lovely x

To answer your question, I would, like many on here not be able to go through a second D Day, I thought I wouldn't go through one, so to experience 19 has me feel empathy for the BS and a degree of disgust at the MM who feels such entitlement, I also wonder at his motivation in staying in a relationship where he is so clearly unhappy, if indeed he is. I am of the mind that no one stays in a truly bad relationship, no matter what they are saying, I tend to take more notice of where the feet are remaining to be than what the mouth is saying.

 

I, like you, have no real knowledge of what he is telling his wife, he might have passed off your call as being that of a woman who won't let go, some WS are so adept at lying they don't know when they are doing it themselves. So, unless you have that from her, I would take what he has said about it with a degree of scepticism. We all think we know people until we find out we don't.

I don't know how long they have been together, maybe she no longer cares if he has outside relationships, maybe they have a perfectly good relationship, but she chooses to turn a blind eye to him seeing other women. If my H had 19 D Days it would be because I could live with him seeing OW as long as our relationship was good, it has to be otherwise why would either stay.

 

The final part is that were I an OW, one D Day would be enough, if someone loves me then I expect them to be with me, to be given the opportunity to have an open, exclusive relationship with me and choose not to, would be when I walked. No one really knows why anyone does anything, but they both have to be happy where they are or they wouldn't be there. He sounds like he is content and maybe she is too, I just see a man who is able to have his cake and eat it and is too weak to leave - if indeed the marriage is that bad.

[whichwayisup]

She's in her 60's and doesn't want to start over again. this idiot (sorry) is her life and whatever reasons she has to be hanging onto him still, wanting to be married to him, she may be weak and scared to move out and start over. Right or wrong, it's her life and she will put up with whatever because she loves him enough to forgive him time and time again. I have to say too, he never fully walked away from her either, so it's not just all on her. He's obviously has done the push/pull thing with her throughout your A with him.. Their dynamic is messed up and they both are addicted to it..So that means too, their marriage isn't over because neither of them can walk away forever, they end up back together.

 

It's sad, she deserves a better husband. But, on some level I can understand this guy is her whole life, married for so many years, a lot invested, families entwined, kids, their life built together. she doesn't want to give it up and start over, alone. After being with someone for so long and being close to retirement age, she's scared. Rightfully so. NOT all women are independent and can be on their own after a very long marriage.

 

I look at my grandparents, they hated each other! So I thought..They fought, called each other mom and dad. they bickered, he drank, she ignored him half the time.. when she died, he was devastated...lost without her. As unhealthy as their marriage was later in life, neither of them wanted or could walk away. Hope that makes sense.

 

OW are constantly being called delusional but oftentimes I think it is the BW who is being delusional.

 

Difference is, OW is not obligated to her MM, she didn't say vows. BS did, and some BS take that to heart and will not give up on their marriage no matter what. Like it or not, a BS has every right to fight hard, to live up to her vows and not want to throw in the towel. Even if after so many d-days.

Edited April 17, 2013 by whichwayisup

[waterwoman]

Why has he gone back to her 19 times? That's what I don't understand.

[xxoo]

After 19, why not stay? I mean, if you don't leave after 3, it seems likely that you aren't leaving, period. Maybe she honestly views marriage "til death", and she's just making the best of it. A couple generations ago, it was normal to do so (view marriage as forever, that is, not cheat like a cold-hearted man)

[jnel921]

WF, don't get it twisted here. There is no repetitive behaviors here. The woman you are talking about is his wife.

 

You are getting the story second hand from him. So who is to say he is lying to you? He needs a reason to keep you around.

 

The sad part is that you wasted your life like a big dummy aligning your life with his listening to all of the lies. If he wanted you, he would have left his wife and been with you.

 

The OW in my life was a POS who was treated as such and can stay where she is...out on the curb and out of our very personal lives....

[96nole]

I'm out of it, or didn't you read that part?

 

I'm sure he does. I'm sure she convinces herself as well.

 

I don't know about you but when I've invested years into someone I care about I follow up with updates when I run into them. The same is true for my xH and other exes.

 

I was in his IC's office when he discussed choosing love (for me) over the status quo (for her), so it didn't seem all that delusional to me. He has no OOW now, not even me, so why you would think I'm delusional is beyond me. I asked a question and I thank you for your answer.

 

 

Who said I stayed through 19 of them!!!??? Just because I am aware if the Ddays does not mean I stayed with him!

 

But I will agree there is a massive mutual dysfunction there.

 

You're welcome.

There are several reasons I think there is delusion on your part.

1. You believe he loves you- This man is married, had you as an OW, and has had many other OW. He is obviously pretty well adept at lying. Why do you think he was telling you the truth that you're the one he loves? Was it because he was in front of a counselor when he professed his love for you? I'm sure he told all of his OOW he was in love with them also.

 

2. You come to a board comprised mainly of BS's, brag about being an OW, brag about being the one the WS truly loves (yet he never left for you), then you essentially insult most BS's calling them delusional, and you don't expect to have other posters question your delusion. How did you expect to be received? Did you not expect any backlash towards you?

 

You want to know why the BW has stayed for 19 ddays, then ask her. Ask her to come to this board and post her story. You don't know her side of the story. You only know what the WS has told you. You can't honestly believe he told you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If you do, then there's my 3rd reason you have delusion.

[Minnie09]

WS:

 

1.) I wouldn't call myself an fOW if I were still aware of what's going on in OM's M. Like it or not, admit it or not, you're still involved to some extent and you get something out of it. Even if it's just occasional, the contact is there and you're preoccupied with it, trying to figure things out. It's like having an A, getting caught and then saying "We stopped the A, but now we're friends"....not working, not gonna happen, it's still an A. The friendship disguise is just that.....a disguise. Friends may be able to regress to acquaintances, but never A-partners. They can't go back to friendship/acquaintance status.*

 

2.) 19 DDays....huh. Like you said, they're both in their 60s, so what's the point in starting over? They think they're too old/weak/financially secure in order to turn their lives upside down. I'm sure that SHE doesn't give two hoots anymore. She's there for convenience, finances, an okay lifestyle and such. After a lifetime of living with a husband like that, trust me, you don't CLING to them, you become indifferent, like whatever.....do what you want. Yes, she may throw a fit (or so he says for a little bit of attention getting thrown at him from your corner), and if she does it's not because she's hurt, it's probably because she's so used to doing it that she just goes through the motions of chastising him and treating him like ****. That gives her the upper hand in the R and probably some leverage for a little while. She, too, might get something out of it and I'm sure he tells her it's better to stay married and in the same house and he loves her etc. She will get some satisfaction for a while, more attention, more money/gifts/vacations/freedom/Botox/new car..... And she may LIKE it that way. I'm sure she doesn't love him and clings to him like he tries to tell you (in order to look more attractive), i am sure she treats him poorly, because after so much time with a cheater you simply done love them anymore. So why is she still there? Because she wants to for other reasons. He could be replaced in a heartbeat....her family/social life/house/401 k/Roth Ira can not. That's why she has experienced 19 DDays. And if she experiences 19 more, she won't care either, and he'll tell you how she clings to him and loves him and puts up with all his quirks because he's such a great guy. And you, my dear WF, you listen to it willingly, giving him all he wants (attention, admiration, feedback) thinking you're so above her. Because YOU would NEVER in a million years put up with that. Let me tell you that she still gets the better deal, because she gets what she wants, she has arranged herself, and you get a phone call every now and then and have to listen to his self-centered bull****. Do you think SHE listens to his bull****? I don't think so. She's tired of his bull****. He needs other outlets because the one person he married 40 years ago has figured him out and he hates that. He needs many OW who he can play, because they don't know who he really is. They haven't figured him out and they never will. That's why you're here, WF. For him. You think you're better than that? Then go nc, don't give him his*ridiculous supply of whatever he needs, and stop trying to convince yourself you're out of that mess. As long as you enjoy talking to him you're a part of his messy self and it messes with your head. I know you don't want to hear that. But she knows what she's doing, and you apparently don't. He is just a self-centered child in an old body and she doesn't take him seriously. And he knows it. And he hates it. And he possibly wants to punish her. But she doesn't care.*She's done and she thinks "pleasi go on a business trip again soon.....it's been too long....I enjoy this house a lot more when you're travelling...."

[cocorico]

Hi, my name is White Flower and I'm an OW:rolleyes:

 

Ok, enough of the cheeky stuff. And actually I am an fOW. I'm here today to see if I can get into the head of a BS, I guess a BW more specifically, to see if I can comprehend what she is thinking after so many Ddays. 19, ouch, that's got to hurt.

 

But as I stated in another thread in this forum we are only victims in this game if we agree to be. Still, why do so many BW get stuck in repetitive behavior that they know is going to cause them so much angst and grief?

 

I haven't really been with xMM in a long time. Tbh, I can't remember when we were last "on", but there has been LC and he has broken trust with BW in order to maintain (or should I say regain) that contact. Dday 19 happened on Thanksgiving. She found a secret cell in which I replied to his "Happy Thanksgiving" with my own, "Hi, Happy Thanksgiving". She confronted him when he was passed out on the couch, drunk and after guests had left, (he never got drunk with me in our 7 years together btw), and asked him wth is this cell phone? She ranted and raved (his words) and demanded he call me to say its over to which he said no way, it's late, and nothing is going on anyway. She said he shouldn't care about waking me or disturbing my holiday and he disagreed but said he'll get rid of the cell in the morning. (He didn't, and she didn't pretend to enforce it either). She stormed off saying she needed to put on a happy face because she was doing another TG feast for her son the next day because he couldn't be there that day and she didn't have time to deal with this., and he could just stay on the couch for all she cares (which was his plan anyway).

 

After finding so many cell phones over the years (several for me and others with OOW over the years), why would BW think her WH will stop doing what makes him happy? And why does she think just by being home he's happy with her?

 

Why would she believe calling me in front of her will make me believe he is serious this time, as if I didn't laugh in their faces last time? And as if he's not going to purchase another cell phone? And as if she isn't going to take him back each time there is a discovery?

 

They are in their 60s. Come on, he's never going to be what she wants him to be! Even I've realized he isn't going to be what I need, and he still loves me!

 

And why does she think after 5 (she only knows about 5) OW, four years of IC, and countless other evidence that nothing is working does she hope to believe one day he will fall in love with her again?

 

OW are constantly being called delusional but oftentimes I think it is the BW who is being delusional.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful and honest (and hopefully not too mean) responses. I really want to know why this kind of person tolerates so much.

 

I think she stays because she does not want you to "win". I think it has become a competition to her and she knows that if she releases her grip he would be at your door in a flash (whether you want him or not). She can't bear to think of you on his arm at social events, you on the back of his bike, you sipping cocktails on the verandah of the posh house while she wheels the grand kid past the crackheads in the lift foyer of a rundown block of flats.

 

She stays, miserable as it makes her, because seeing you and he end up together - happy, even - would but her more than even this.

Edited April 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Inflammatory content redacted

[Minnie09]

He has everything, she brings nothing, yet he still chooses to stay with her?

you know your post, which really seems to be intended to run her down, just makes him look like an idiot for staying when he clearly doesn't have to ( or, alternatively there's a whole lot ore to the story than he is telling anyone)

 

 

Who is she talking about anyways? Her own MM's W? Well if she's that unattractive that doesn't throw a very good light on him either, right? If he stays and it makes his OW that mad, does that mean she's jealous/envious?

Edited April 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[cocorico]

uh huh:rolleyes:

 

he has everything, she brings nothing, yet he still chooses to stay with her?

you know your post, which really seems to be intended to run her down, just makes him look like an idiot for staying when he clearly doesn't have to ( or, alternatively there's a whole lot ore to the story than he is telling anyone)

 

i also find it odd that you could glean that much from a facebbok page...most people's are pretty scarce on details to those whom they don't know...

 

It depends on how smart you are with your privacy settings. Or maybe you don't care. Or ,ay be you want people to see. Either way, people who choose to filter their FB to those non-friends typically show their glossiest side and keep the more dodgy stuff hidden. If she's filtering, she's doing the reverse.

 

And yes, I do think he's an idiot for staying with her. I have said it in exactly those words to him. He does have problems, I don't think anyone has denied that. I have my theories on what those are, but since that wasn't the subject of this thread I won't elucidate further.

[SoleMate]

I am an fOW. I'm here today to see if I can get into the head of a BS, I guess a BW more specifically, to see if I can comprehend what she is thinking after so many Ddays. 19, ouch, that's got to hurt.

 

WhiteFlower, of all the millions of people on earth whose motives and thinking and feelings you could minutely question....why hers? Why not your neighbor down the street, your city council person, a political figure, a friend of a friend, Vladimir Putin, George Clooney or Portia Rossi? Sojourner Truth, Walt Disney, your high school best friend, the waitress at your favorite restaurant, a blogger or shock jock, Nelson Mandela, a contractor who once did a poor job for you, crime victims, local business owners, or even other LS posters?

 

Why do you focus the microscope of hostility of the BW of your xMM? And gloat in her supposed suffering? We here at LS are supposed to help you find your own answers, but not necessarily to the question as you frame it, especially when the question you ask is irrelevant to your personal growth. You should focus on yourself and your choices. Please consider why you distract and divert yourself from doing so.

[seren]

What would or should matter to an OW (not WF, general) is that despite 19 D Days, despite all the supposed control a BS wields after D Day, despite the name calling and character assassination, he chooses to not only return after a D day, but chooses to return 19 times. He has either got to be a glutton for punishment and would probably benefit from therapy, or it suits him and her to be in their relationship, living life as they choose.

 

WF, I forget if the BS knows about you, does she know he is contacting you again?

Edited April 17, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[William]

Members, let's move away from discussions and characterizations of the BS relevant to Facebook and other real life identifiable information and focus back onto some topical questions:

 

After finding so many cell phones over the years (several for me and others with OOW over the years), why would BW think her WH will stop doing what makes him happy? And why does she think just by being home he's happy with her?

 

Why would she believe calling me in front of her will make me believe he is serious this time, as if I didn't laugh in their faces last time? And as if he's not going to purchase another cell phone? And as if she isn't going to take him back each time there is a discovery?

 

They are in their 60s. Come on, he's never going to be what she wants him to be! Even I've realized he isn't going to be what I need, and he still loves me!

 

And why does she think after 5 (she only knows about 5) OW, four years of IC, and countless other evidence that nothing is working does she hope to believe one day he will fall in love with her again?

 

This thread has been edited and moved for compliance with guidelines. Thanks for your participation.

[White Flower]

Well I guess I can't understand why someone would even want to be involved with this couple and their issues???

 

And I can't understand why anyone would think I was involved with a couple! I was only involved with him.

 

But that is OT now isn't it.

[freestyle]

WF, it could be that he's beaten her down so badly over the years that she just isn't strong enough to leave.

 

Poor woman.

 

That was my guess.....

 

Long-term , repeated emotional abuse (which cheating , withholding affection, and presenting a false reality to someone defintiely IS) can create a Stockholm Syndrome effect. Also known as trauma bonding.....

It's a state of mind that makes it difficult for a woman to extract herself from an abusive situation.

 

It IS possible that her self-esteem is in shreds after years of that, to the point where she's almost too numb to react. That her psyche will cloak itself in layers of denial, to protect itself from further pain....

 

 

It's a heartbreaking thing to witness, from a third-party perspective.

[White Flower]

Infidelity can indeed have elements of PTSD, for many BS. Those who are blindsided experience many of the characteristics of trauma, some don't, but undoubtedly some do, I have had a serious car accident, lost family, survived rape and sexual abuse and can tell you, hand on heart, that infidelity had a greater effect on my wellbeing than any of the others. It might not be that way for others, but for me, that is how it was. Sethanne Howard and Mark W. Crandall, MD discuss at length how the effects of PTSD can have real changes to brain chemistry. My H had severe combat PTSD, part of which resulted in his A. Prior to my experience of infidelity I might have found it hard to equate betrayal to PTSD, but after it happened to me, I realised that all my years of supporting people to survive traumatic life events I hadn't really understood, so while I understand the need for research validation, IRL experience changed my view.

 

Hi WF, lovely to see you, hope all is well and your garden is lovely x

To answer your question, I would, like many on here not be able to go through a second D Day, I thought I wouldn't go through one, so to experience 19 has me feel empathy for the BS and a degree of disgust at the MM who feels such entitlement, I also wonder at his motivation in staying in a relationship where he is so clearly unhappy, if indeed he is. I am of the mind that no one stays in a truly bad relationship, no matter what they are saying, I tend to take more notice of where the feet are remaining to be than what the mouth is saying.

 

I, like you, have no real knowledge of what he is telling his wife, he might have passed off your call as being that of a woman who won't let go, some WS are so adept at lying they don't know when they are doing it themselves. So, unless you have that from her, I would take what he has said about it with a degree of scepticism. We all think we know people until we find out we don't.

I don't know how long they have been together, maybe she no longer cares if he has outside relationships, maybe they have a perfectly good relationship, but she chooses to turn a blind eye to him seeing other women. If my H had 19 D Days it would be because I could live with him seeing OW as long as our relationship was good, it has to be otherwise why would either stay.

 

The final part is that were I an OW, one D Day would be enough, if someone loves me then I expect them to be with me, to be given the opportunity to have an open, exclusive relationship with me and choose not to, would be when I walked. No one really knows why anyone does anything, but they both have to be happy where they are or they wouldn't be there. He sounds like he is content and maybe she is too, I just see a man who is able to have his cake and eat it and is too weak to leave - if indeed the marriage is that bad.

Hi seren, garden is well!

 

One answer, codependency. Even their daughter who is now an MFP has pushed books on the subject to them and suggested D. She even pitched a fit when they R.

 

But one would think pride and personal growth would cause it all to stop. I know it did for me. And no, being in contact does not mean I am back in the A to those who think one is synonymous to the other.

[White Flower]

WF, it could be that he's beaten her down so badly over the years that she just isn't strong enough to leave.

 

Poor woman.

 

To be honest, and I mean really honest as someone who has stepped back and let time separate me from the whole thing, and knowing all that I know, especially with what his IC once said in his office to me, I think it's him that's beaten down. I think she is competitive and looks at each Dday as winning the battle. Competition in love is foreign in my book.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

 

I want to know what makes this woman put up with it. She has told him she doesn't love him the way a wife ought to love her H yet she clings. If course, this was in response to him saying the same thing first. Maybe she was just bluffing?

 

Well ofcourse she doesn't love him the way a wife should love a husband, he behaves like a child. How is it so difficult to understand her, when you claim to understand him? He stays, he clings (considering he needs the love from multiple women to make him feel secure in himself) he even says to her what you're explaining to us that she said to him, FIRST! How can you understand him and have trouble understanding hers? Now if she had someone in her life whom she professed to love then I might question why she stays.

 

How is his reason more understandable than hers?

[Got it]

I would say she is where she wants to be. He is where he wants to be. And for WHATEVER reason, some people seem to enjoy living f**cked up lives.

 

There is my medical diagnosis, that will be 100 bucks.

[Got it]

I don't know, but would consider having multiple affairs, continuing to rub the wife's nose in it by continuing to have a secret cellphone, etc., to be abusive...it is emotional abuse...

 

I wonder how many people would be willing to hep a husband/wife abuse their spouse? In this situation, that's what's happening...

 

Come on, she knows it is continuing, she has caught him numerous times. At some point you stop being a victim and start being a participant. She has just as easy ability to walk away as he does and so no quarter should be given to her as some victim that is stuck than given to him. There is more than enough evidence that this is a pattern.

 

Regardless of what it is, it is screwed up and they both are very dysfunctional and should end this toxic relationship.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[AnotherRound]

Come on, she knows it is continuing, she has caught him numerous times. At some point you stop being a victim and start being a participant. She has just as easy ability to walk away as he does and so no quarter should be given to her as some victim that is stuck than given to him. There is more than enough evidence that this is a pattern.

 

Regardless of what it is, it is screwed up and they both are very dysfunctional and should end this toxic relationship.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

Agreed. I think that many will find she doesn't leave because it isn't easy. I'm curious if this means that she does not have integrity (since it seems that way if a WH doesn't leave and instead chooses to stay and try to make the best of it?).