Dday 19

[Owl]

Come on, she knows it is continuing, she has caught him numerous times. At some point you stop being a victim and start being a participant. She has just as easy ability to walk away as he does and so no quarter should be given to her as some victim that is stuck than given to him. There is more than enough evidence that this is a pattern.

 

Regardless of what it is, it is screwed up and they both are very dysfunctional and should end this toxic relationship.

 

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

 

 

Agreed. I think that many will find she doesn't leave because it isn't easy. I'm curious if this means that she does not have integrity (since it seems that way if a WH doesn't leave and instead chooses to stay and try to make the best of it?).

 

I'm curious if you'd feel the same if he were slapping his wife, instead of cheating on her? Would you also tell her then that she's being a participant instead of a victim?

[AnotherRound]

I think she stays because she does not want you to "win". I think it has become a competition to her and she knows that if she releases her grip he would be at your door in a flash (whether you want him or not). She can't bear to think of you on his arm at social events, you on the back of his bike, you sipping cocktails on the verandah of the posh house while she wheels the grand kid past the crackheads in the lift foyer of a rundown block of flats.

 

She stays, miserable as it makes her, because seeing you and he end up together - happy, even - would but her more than even this.

 

THIS!!!! Some people have this intense fear that if they aren't with someone, that the other person will ride off into the sunset and be a "better" person with the other person. It's all so ... twisted.

 

In my life, if someone I'm with wants to be with someone else - I don't fight that - we all have to make our decisions and choices in life - and we all live with the outcomes of those. I don't try to make other people's decisions for them - only my own.

 

I remember when I was younger, in my first serious relationship - and this was HUGE fear of mine. That someone else would have what was "mine" in my head - my first love - it was gut wrenching to my 16 year old self. Now? Eh... lol. I say, live and let live - and what will be will be. I make my choices, my decisions, from what is realistically available- and go from there. If someone else chooses someone else - oh well. I mean, people are just people. If you break up with someone, they don't magically change into someone else - they are still themselves, still imperfect - and every relationship has challenges.

 

It's called romanticizing - and a lot of people do it. They have this idea in their head that the other person is going to live happily ever after while they rot away alone and destitute. It's unrealistic - every life has challenges, we all struggle - with or without that person, them with or without you - life is just life.

[Got it]

I'm curious if you'd feel the same if he were slapping his wife, instead of cheating on her? Would you also tell her then that she's being a participant instead of a victim?

 

Yes. If she is complaining and upset about it and talking about wanting it to stop then yes I would tell her the multitude of areas that she can seek recourse.

 

Now OF COURSE it would be tempered if there was fear of direct and immediate harm involving a fear for their life. But since the affairs are not of that manner I don't see quite the same level of abuse as someone physically abusing someone.

 

I am actually quite surprised you are alluding that she may have an excuse about staying in this toxic situation and yet there is zero quarter offered to the WS spouse (and that includes comments you have posted towards those indicating abusive spouses).

 

She can leave. If its bad enough she can leave and end it. She can't control him, she can't make him stop but she can put her hands up and tag out of the whole mess.

[Got it]

Why would the BS be worried? That makes absolutely no sense. She knows he ain't goin' NOwhere, so why worry?

 

What did AR say about being worried? And just because she knows he isn't going anywhere is this really any life to lead?

 

She knows he is stepping out more than he is stepping in. So same thing asked to a WS, why stay?

[angie2443]

I'm curious if you'd feel the same if he were slapping his wife, instead of cheating on her? Would you also tell her then that she's being a participant instead of a victim?

 

Owl, many people do have a "blame the victim" attitude when it comes to abuse, be it emotional and/or physical abuse. It can be hard to understand what that kind of a situation does to one's mind if you haven't been through it yourself. Also, it makes people more confortable with the abuse, if they can see the abused person as responsible for bieng abused.

[eleanorrigby]

Maybe she enjoys this and all the drama with hidden phones and finding them and chewing his ass out just gives her life.

[Owl]

Yes. If she is complaining and upset about it and talking about wanting it to stop then yes I would tell her the multitude of areas that she can seek recourse.

 

Now OF COURSE it would be tempered if there was fear of direct and immediate harm involving a fear for their life. But since the affairs are not of that manner I don't see quite the same level of abuse as someone physically abusing someone.

 

I am actually quite surprised you are alluding that she may have an excuse about staying in this toxic situation and yet there is zero quarter offered to the WS spouse (and that includes comments you have posted towards those indicating abusive spouses).

 

She can leave. If its bad enough she can leave and end it. She can't control him, she can't make him stop but she can put her hands up and tag out of the whole mess.

 

I would agree with you that she CAN leave at any time.

 

I would point out to you that many, many woman remain in abusive relationships for long periods of time...often never getting out of the relationship.

 

This relationship is equally as abusive...IMHO.

 

It's surprising to me that folks don't see that. Especially folks in a professional situation to have insight into emotional/physical abuse, and the mental/emotional patterns developed as a result.

 

If she were posting here...I would absolutely tell her to leave. But I'd be unsurprised if she didn't.

[eleanorrigby]

I would agree with you that she CAN leave at any time.

 

I would point out to you that many, many woman remain in abusive relationships for long periods of time...often never getting out of the relationship.

 

This relationship is equally as abusive...IMHO.

 

It's surprising to me that folks don't see that. Especially folks in a professional situation to have insight into emotional/physical abuse, and the mental/emotional patterns developed as a result.

 

If she were posting here...I would absolutely tell her to leave. But I'd be unsurprised if she didn't.

^^ agreed and if she didn't or couldn't, I'd have to just leave her alone because I wouldn't want to listen to the complaints or witness the abuse.

[eleanorrigby]

I would guess there is abuse, co dependency and a host of other disorders going on in a situation like that for at least 2 of them and probably all 3.

 

I'd put my money on co-dependancy as well.

[Got it]

If I had "an intense fear" I would more than likely be worried.

 

All this talk about "if the BS leaves, she just KNOWS the OP and her ex will end up together" is what was being discussed. Apparently this BS has him in shackles in the basement.

 

If he wanted to be oh, so happy as some would like to think, he'd leave.

 

What on earth are you talking about!?! What you posted as nothing to do with my post that you quoted.

[Got it]

I would agree with you that she CAN leave at any time.

 

I would point out to you that many, many woman remain in abusive relationships for long periods of time...often never getting out of the relationship.

 

This relationship is equally as abusive...IMHO.

 

It's surprising to me that folks don't see that. Especially folks in a professional situation to have insight into emotional/physical abuse, and the mental/emotional patterns developed as a result.

 

If she were posting here...I would absolutely tell her to leave. But I'd be unsurprised if she didn't.

 

Okay, I think people do see it but just like an alcoholic, a drug addict, there is a line at some point where you have offered the person the recourses necessary and they have to make that change.

 

I under physical abuse and the actual acute fear of leaving because they fear for their lives, emotional abuse especially in the make up of serial affairs is more of a stretch on why someone does want to leave.

 

Again, just like no one can make a WS leave, can't make anyone do what you want if they don't want to.

 

And bottomline, she doesn't want to enough or she would have done it. Something is keeping her there, that something may not be positive, healthy or right but that something is making it worthwhile to stay.

 

Same goes for a WS, many argue that instead of having an affair just leave. Obviously something is keeping them there where the affair seems a "better" idea.

 

People will do what they want to do. I understand how the dysfunctional relationships will keep you stuck but at some point you have to take charge of your life to change it.

[Got it]

Sorry I seem to have a job that gets in the way of my reading the threads properly.

 

1000 lashes for me, my most sincere apologies for not understanding whom and what you were criticizing.

[ComingInHot]

Couple things for White Flower & Got It,

 

Got it wrote,

"Now OF COURSE it would be tempered if there was fear of direct and immediate harm involving a fear for their life. But since the affairs are not of that manner I don't see quite the same level of abuse as someone physically abusing someone."

 

Got it, I just wanted you to know that there have been times in my M (hopefully all past now...), where he would go off on rage tantrums. He would scream and yell and cuss at me and blame me for EVERYTHING and then some if HE wasn't getting exactly what he wanted, when he wanted & how he wanted. And this was BEFORE he cheated. His rages would last hours and I mean HOURS! like 3, 4 sometimes 5 hours and I couldn't escape. We worked together. If I tried to walk out, he would threaten doing awful things.

My point is, I got to a point where I prayed to God that he would just HIT ME BAM! I could at least LEAVE with a reason, proof, substantiated evidence that I was in fact, being horrendously abused. but he was too smart for that. ( I just deleted a whole lot more...)

 

Then he cheated. There. Done. Game Over. BUSTED!!! Not only did I have a reason to leave but no more would I have to put up with ANYTHING, Right?!?!

Part of me wishes I'd not let him back BUT after 3 years of counseling, he has dealt with Anger & abuse issues, his infidelity and come a long, long way!

 

So to me and what I have experienced, the fear is Very similar when dealing with any form of abuse by someone you love.

sorry I went off on this*

CIH

[dreamingoftigers]

Ok, I went through multiple Ddays.

 

From my perspective, I couldn't keep anything in my life together long enough to figure out whether I wanted to go, stay, recover or kick his ass so hard it popped out his eyes.

 

It wasn't just the Ddays that slammed into me constantly, it was the never-ending emotional abuse and hopeful moments and lists of excuses and controlling behaviour that just kept my adrenaline sky-high, and me unable to sleep.

 

I went through it for three years!

 

I couldn't mentally or emotionally process very much beyond getting up innthe morning, taking care of my infant daughter and trying to avoid my irrational,

explosive, selfish, demeaning husband from blowing out or reacting nutty. Or taking all of our money and taking off. (yea, it happened).

 

It wasn't until it just went too damn far that I managed to throw him out.

 

And honestly, your brain gets so twisted by it that you are told how it's "all your fault" because xyz. Because they RARELY take any responsibility. Mine didn't until LONG AFTER he was kicked out.

 

So here I was, the only somewhat responsible ADULT in the house trying to take care of an infant and just FUNCTION during the day.

 

I had NO IDEA how miserably depressed I was since I was being hammered on daily about it being all my fault. I hated my life and I really, really resented my husband but lacked the courage to point-blank shoot him out of the sky because of the explosive consequences foresaw. The consequences came anyway.

 

And then after they did, things looked much clearer.

[Got it]

Criticizing? No. Just commenting on some fiction that was being written here - stories criticizing the BS, ironically enough.

 

Okay so you were criticizing a criticism. Understood. Lima Charlie.

[angie2443]

Ok, I went through multiple Ddays.

 

From my perspective, I couldn't keep anything in my life together long enough to figure out whether I wanted to go, stay, recover or kick his ass so hard it popped out his eyes.

 

It wasn't just the Ddays that slammed into me constantly, it was the never-ending emotional abuse and hopeful moments and lists of excuses and controlling behaviour that just kept my adrenaline sky-high, and me unable to sleep.

 

I went through it for three years!

 

I couldn't mentally or emotionally process very much beyond getting up innthe morning, taking care of my infant daughter and trying to avoid my irrational,

explosive, selfish, demeaning husband from blowing out or reacting nutty. Or taking all of our money and taking off. (yea, it happened).

 

It wasn't until it just went too damn far that I managed to throw him out.

 

And honestly, your brain gets so twisted by it that you are told how it's "all your fault" because xyz. Because they RARELY take any responsibility. Mine didn't until LONG AFTER he was kicked out.

 

So here I was, the only somewhat responsible ADULT in the house trying to take care of an infant and just FUNCTION during the day.

 

I had NO IDEA how miserably depressed I was since I was being hammered on daily about it being all my fault. I hated my life and I really, really resented my husband but lacked the courage to point-blank shoot him out of the sky because of the explosive consequences foresaw. The consequences came anyway.

 

And then after they did, things looked much clearer.

 

I think this post gives a good window into what it does to the emotions to be in a situation like this.

 

Also, I'm sure the cycle of abuse plays well into this. You hook or re-hook (after a d-day, maybe) a person into the relationship with you by giving them respect, love, hope, ect. When they are lulled into a feeling of security, when they are caught off guard, then you start the abuse (control tactics.) I don't know what tactics the mm (exmm?) is using here with the bw, but I wouldn't be suprised if he was loving, charming, warm with the bw after the ddays, and then, when she was hooked again, he'd go back to the ow (ow's?). The cycle is a system, or tool, that works very well at messing with a person's mind. When a person's mind becomes so twisted from this, it is much harder for them to see clear and make healthy decisions for themselves.

[HonestNeurotic]

my .02 cents. Re: Why she stays

 

Some people will stay in a marriage because that's what they feel they have to do. It's this ultimate "failure" if they quit it. No. Matter. What.

 

Some people LIKE to be the victim. i.e., Poor, poor, me. My husband keeps cheating on me. I say they like to be the victim/martyr as they do nothing at all to change the situation. Instead of doing something positive, like, go for counseling, or kick him to the curb, make some boundries, they'd rather just stay in their victim/martyr role. My mother does this really well. If you point out that they have some power to make their own personal happiness, they reject those ideas. It makes them uncomfortable because that requires CHANGE on their part.

 

Some people really have control issues. I think again of my own mother. She didn't really want my father back, and she made sure that everyday that he was back he was MISERABLE. I've seen women that once they "catch" their husband cheating, and one that even just THOUGHT that her man might cheat, put so many conditions on the lives of their WS that it was more of a prisoner/prison guard kinda relationship. The BS never thinks that she can be loved by another. Not that she doesn't think she is good enough, but that the thought never crosses her mind. She cannot forget and she cannot let go either.

 

Because to me, personally, if I have to go through that much work to see what my husband is up to all the time, well, I don't want to be with him if I have that many trust issues with him. I just couldn't deal with having to put that much work into keeping my mind in the know that he wasn't doing whatever it was that I caught him doing that I didn't like. (I have no such worries about those things with my husband) Reading his emails and texts and phone and gps! Far too much work for me.

 

I had some ex in laws that lived in another country. Two of my ex husbands aunts that had raised families, and maintained separate houses from their husbands. Though they would "allow" their husband to stay there from time to time. Drunken and philandering men. But they would NOT get divorced. Because it was this UBER SIN. They would have been ostracized by everyone. I would say that the older the person is, it's more likely that they hold some traditional beliefs when it comes to marriage. The idea of NOT being married just is not ever an option to them.

 

And some people just THRIVE in toxic, dysfunctional, relationships. They enjoy making up. They're like really bad country music songs. I know a few couples that live that way. They never really break up. Their lives are filled with DRAMA. I often feel they are bored and need to create drama to feel they are alive or something. I dunno.

 

And WS? I'm glad that you are gone from this man's life. Truly. Maybe he was a great affair partner, but it does not sound like he is something to keep.

 

And please, I am not saying that the BS is wrong in her feelings or anything at all. Because I don't KNOW these people. I'm just answering a general question based on things that I've seen in my life.

[whichwayisup]

And others LIKE to be the victim as well, i.e. Poor, poor me. My W is SUCH a nag, and she keeps me held hostage in this awful marriage!

 

Neither is holding gun here, either of them can walk out the door for good at any time. Something obviously is still keeping them together, whatever their reasons are, they don't have to justify it to anybody. It works for them, unhealthy dynamic, addiction to the highs and the lows of their drama, all the d-days.

 

People who want a divorce, do so. Seems neither of them are really ready to let go and move on.

[White Flower]

She's in her 60's and doesn't want to start over again. this idiot (sorry) is her life and whatever reasons she has to be hanging onto him still, wanting to be married to him, she may be weak and scared to move out and start over. Right or wrong, it's her life and she will put up with whatever because she loves him enough to forgive him time and time again. I have to say too, he never fully walked away from her either, so it's not just all on her. He's obviously has done the push/pull thing with her throughout your A with him.. Their dynamic is messed up and they both are addicted to it..So that means too, their marriage isn't over because neither of them can walk away forever, they end up back together.

 

It's sad, she deserves a better husband. But, on some level I can understand this guy is her whole life, married for so many years, a lot invested, families entwined, kids, their life built together. she doesn't want to give it up and start over, alone. After being with someone for so long and being close to retirement age, she's scared. Rightfully so. NOT all women are independent and can be on their own after a very long marriage.

 

I look at my grandparents, they hated each other! So I thought..They fought, called each other mom and dad. they bickered, he drank, she ignored him half the time.. when she died, he was devastated...lost without her. As unhealthy as their marriage was later in life, neither of them wanted or could walk away. Hope that makes sense.

 

 

 

Difference is, OW is not obligated to her MM, she didn't say vows. BS did, and some BS take that to heart and will not give up on their marriage no matter what. Like it or not, a BS has every right to fight hard, to live up to her vows and not want to throw in the towel. Even if after so many d-days.

 

I think this is where so many BS don't get the OW's mindset; we don't throw in the towel easily either, but we are not governed by a piece of paper...we are governed by our hearts.

 

Just my .02

[White Flower]

WhiteFlower, of all the millions of people on earth whose motives and thinking and feelings you could minutely question....why hers? Why not your neighbor down the street, your city council person, a political figure, a friend of a friend, Vladimir Putin, George Clooney or Portia Rossi? Sojourner Truth, Walt Disney, your high school best friend, the waitress at your favorite restaurant, a blogger or shock jock, Nelson Mandela, a contractor who once did a poor job for you, crime victims, local business owners, or even other LS posters?

 

Why do you focus the microscope of hostility of the BW of your xMM? And gloat in her supposed suffering? We here at LS are supposed to help you find your own answers, but not necessarily to the question as you frame it, especially when the question you ask is irrelevant to your personal growth. You should focus on yourself and your choices. Please consider why you distract and divert yourself from doing so.

First, you are assuming I haven't asked all those people.

 

Second, you are assuming there is hostility but there isn't any, there only a desire to understand the mindset. Who better to ask than someone who relates to her? I think WWIU gave a pretty good guess and so did ES

Third, there is no gloating. If I wanted to do that I'd mail him a card today that said, "I love and miss you too sweetheart".

 

Fourth, "distract and divert"? Really? I don't know about you, but for me nobody can really move on without first understanding their entire experience. I hope you've understood yours fully.

Edited April 18, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[White Flower]

What would or should matter to an OW (not WF, general) is that despite 19 D Days, despite all the supposed control a BS wields after D Day, despite the name calling and character assassination, he chooses to not only return after a D day, but chooses to return 19 times. He has either got to be a glutton for punishment and would probably benefit from therapy, or it suits him and her to be in their relationship, living life as they choose.

 

WF, I forget if the BS knows about you, does she know he is contacting you again?

Most codependents are gulttons for punishment, yes. And he is still in therapy, lol. He says what suited him was the comfort zone, but lately realizes that that just feels numb. He hasn't laughed or felt anything real in a very long time. It sounds great, but my boundaries are firm now.

 

Many of us know a lot of people go to their grave living like this. It's very sad.

 

I suppose the only answer I can give is she would be a fool if she didn't know (this does not mean I am gloating btw) but she asks him quite regularly if "I contacted him". It cracks me up that she would default to the idea that it's me dragging him away from her, which coincides nicely with ES's competition theory. There never was a competition, ever, in my world. He chased me. Every. Single. Time. Other than her suspicions, no one can be sure that she knows. I'm sure if they both pretend long enough between parties and vacations it never really gets to them. But she will always look over her shoulder. That's what you get when you take a known SC back over and over.

[xxoo]

I think this is where so many BS don't get the OW's mindset; we don't throw in the towel easily either, but we are not governed by a piece of paper...we are governed by our hearts.

 

Just my .02

 

When people talk about vows, they aren't talking about the piece of paper. They are talking about promises and intentions spoken, and some people take those marital vows very seriously. Til death do us part. Serious stuff!

 

It's not so uncommon for people, especially among older generations.

[White Flower]

That was my guess.....

 

Long-term , repeated emotional abuse (which cheating , withholding affection, and presenting a false reality to someone defintiely IS) can create a Stockholm Syndrome effect. Also known as trauma bonding.....

It's a state of mind that makes it difficult for a woman to extract herself from an abusive situation.

 

It IS possible that her self-esteem is in shreds after years of that, to the point where she's almost too numb to react. That her psyche will cloak itself in layers of denial, to protect itself from further pain....

 

 

It's a heartbreaking thing to witness, from a third-party perspective.

I am interested in reading about the Stockholm Syndrome, thanks for that.

 

Still, we are constantly told that if we agree to stay in a bad situation it is us who need to blame ourselves and that is why I got out of the A. By agreeing to stay, this woman agrees to be abused again. And to be quite honest, from the outside looking in and what xMM has shared with me, her status and picture perfect appearance as a M woman is what really matters to her. He tells me that she puts on a happy face at parties but at home they never speak or go near each other. I know he sleeps in a separate room at night because he IMs me for hours in it after she's gone to bed.

 

So I don't think there is an abused wife syndrom here. I think there is a payoff to her that is greater than the pain of discovery.

[White Flower]

you sipping cocktails on the verandah of the posh house while she wheels the grand kid past the crackheads in the lift foyer of a rundown block of flats.

 

How did the grand kid end up in the crack neighborhood???

 

Where does this woman live that the H gets to walk away with all the marital assets after forty years of marriage and the wife then only has enough left to live in a crack infested neighborhood???

 

I'm guessing from this story also that he was awarded so much in this fantasy settlement that his children and grand kids are also forced to give up whatever they are making? The judge in this fantasy place feels that the BW is just so ugly and mean that everyone should give up their earnings so the beautiful supermodel OW can afford a hot pool boy to bring her cocktails. Now they are all forced to reside in crackville???

 

 

 

 

Boy, what did I miss when I went to that meeting in the City and what was deleted? I know the thread was moved and now I'm just catching up.

[xxoo]

So I don't think there is an abused wife syndrom here. I think there is a payoff to her that is greater than the pain of discovery.

 

My best guess is that the payoff is avoiding divorce. She's probably very anti-divorce.

 

I'm sure she regrets choosing him, but she's living with her choices.

 

I do wonder why others would choose him. She probably chose him for the same reasons, and look where she ended up.....