Dday 19

[AnotherRound]

And others LIKE to be the victim as well, i.e. Poor, poor me. My W is SUCH a nag, and she keeps me held hostage in this awful marriage!

 

I agree. Akin to "poor poor me, my husband won't stop cheating on me, and seeing other women - he is so horrible to me but I can't leave bc of the children!!! ahhhh"...

[White Flower]

Serial cheaters have serious issues within themselves that usually predate the M.

 

I'm sure there is much more going on in this M than you know or will ever know.

 

For example, based on the drunken phone call he may have a drinking problem you know nothing about.

 

I would also bet money that the exchange he described to you was much different. He would have omitted all details that make him look bad in his view.

 

I would also bet money he is abusive and you will never know this unless you lived with him long enough for it to come out.

 

All that to say is that imo there are always serious issues underlying serial cheating. Those issues usually are far more defining of whats going on in the M than the cheating. In other words, the cheating is the least of her problems with him.

 

She knows this about him at some level. Most likely the cheating has little to do with her and she understands that even if she does not fully know or understand why he is doing it or the other dysfunctional behaviors hes exhibiting to her.

 

So with no malice to you, I would say, you think you know whats going on with them, but you probably dont have a clue and he will never explain it to you even if he understands it. Likely since he's still engaged in the behavior he doesnt get it and doesnt want to face or deal with his issues.

Blondie, did I mention a drunken phone call? I don't recall posting it here but there was one once, and she read about it on my FB wall. That caused one of the Ddays. It was a funny post though, and I don't regret posting it or causing the Dday. My life is open, even if his isn't.

 

She actually dislikes me very much for knowing more about him than she ever did. And she hates that I was invited to see his IC with him (because he trusted me to know everything) but not her. She even cried in front of a M encounter group therapy session saying that she wanted the intimacy that he hand I shared. She learned about it from an essay I wrote for his IC. He left it in the wrong place and she found it. That's good though, because it gave her a chance to step up to the plate and offer him the kind of intimacy she never knew a M should have. Well, they have both found out that intimacy cannot be forged, (as someone stated on this thread earlier), it can only grow naturally when both parties are open to it. That is where so many R couples go wrong; you just can't forge intimacy.

 

I do think I pretty much know about all of his issues but I will agree that he had issues predating the M. He admitted to already falling out of love with her before the wedding, if you consider that an issue. But the worst of them is his codependency issues. Those are weaved across an entire family and it's disgusting sometimes to watch how they interact with each other. He knows he would have to step up to the plate with me and behave in an adult manner at all times. I think that is what held him back in the past.

[White Flower]

Simple. IN this case BW could be a woman with low self esteem that is afrauid to make it on her own. SHe could even have her own OM and could care less about you the OW.

 

 

But, the real question is: Why you as the OW stay after 19 d-days and after OOWs. At least the wife is married and it would be difficult to break up the family due to properties, children, etc. However, in your case you could simply walk away with no hassle. And yet, you seem to tolerate much more than the BW.

 

What is going on in your head? Why do you put up with 19 d-days?

Oh Pierre, thank you for posting!

 

Low self-esteem is probably a factor in BW, I'll agree. They are terribly mis-matched and I'm sure it plays tricks on her mind. She did try to find an OM during thier separation but couldn't find one that was suitable. xMM had the password to her online dating account and said that while she was talking to men, most of them were hideous looking. I swear I am not making this stuff up!

 

Since you don't know my story, I'll tell you that 1. He dumped all open doors to fOOW when I found out he was talking to them. 2. He never did that for his W, but she of course benefitting from my closet cleaning. 3. I am out of the A. and 4. I can't recall exactly when, but I haven't been with him for (I'm guessing 5?) of the last Ddays. I mean, the phones were found with my number on them but he and I were not actively participating in the A, we were just talking.

 

And he hasn't said anything that sparks of what I need to make it work for us in any capacity. That is what is going on in my head.

[xxoo]

I agree. Akin to "poor poor me, my husband won't stop cheating on me, and seeing other women - he is so horrible to me but I can't leave bc of the children!!! ahhhh"...

 

But she isn't here posting that. From what WF said, it sounds like she'd putting on a happy face in public, and dealing with her philandering husband privately.

 

Why should she leave her marriage? I mean, I can give all the reasons I would leave, but does that mean that she is doing something wrong by staying? I don't think so.

[White Flower]

Well ofcourse she doesn't love him the way a wife should love a husband, he behaves like a child. How is it so difficult to understand her, when you claim to understand him? He stays, he clings (considering he needs the love from multiple women to make him feel secure in himself) he even says to her what you're explaining to us that she said to him, FIRST! How can you understand him and have trouble understanding hers? Now if she had someone in her life whom she professed to love then I might question why she stays.

 

How is his reason more understandable than hers?

First of all you got it wrong, he said it to her first. She mirrored it back later because she thought the pain of the statement would be just as painful to him as it was to her. Maybe it was, I don't know. If it were me, I'd see right through it but then again I am not codependent. I do, as you claim, understand more than most would in this situation, but I do not understand staying after nearly 20 Ddays if it's just for competition and comfort zone. I dumped all that myself after 25 years of M because at this stage in my life I need authenticity. How can I in my 40s have self-actualized but she in her 60s cannot? It's mind-boggling.*

 

 

*If competition and lifestyle are the reasons she stays.

[xxoo]

First of all you got it wrong, he said it to her first. She mirrored it back later because she thought the pain of the statement would be just as painful to him as it was to her. Maybe it was, I don't know. If it were me, I'd see right through it but then again I am not codependent. I do, as you claim, understand more than most would in this situation, but I do not understand staying after nearly 20 Ddays if it's just for competition and comfort zone. I dumped all that myself after 25 years of M because at this stage in my life I need authenticity. How can I in my 40s have self-actualized but she in her 60s cannot? It's mind-boggling.*

 

 

*If competition and lifestyle are the reasons she stays.

 

Has he self-actualized?

[White Flower]

Agreed. I think that many will find she doesn't leave because it isn't easy. I'm curious if this means that she does not have integrity (since it seems that way if a WH doesn't leave and instead chooses to stay and try to make the best of it?).

When she told her best friend that xMM had moved back in her best friend then yelled and screamed at her because all the week prior she had told the bf she no longer loved him and then began to work at turning all her friends against him. In this case it worked! And when BW took him back she forgot she had turned some people against him. :/

 

Taking him back after admitting she no longer loved him was a lack of integrity. Integrity means words that equal your actions.

 

Leaving is easier than anyone thinks, but they don't know it until they overcome that hurdle. I've lived after a lot of hurdles, and D was probably one of the smallest ones.

[White Flower]

I'm curious if you'd feel the same if he were slapping his wife, instead of cheating on her? Would you also tell her then that she's being a participant instead of a victim?

If she agreed to stay after the storm settled, absolutely.

[ComingInHot]

White flower wrote, " I think this is where so many BS don't get the OW's mindset; we don't throw in the towel easily either, but we are not governed by a piece of paper...we are governed by our hearts.

 

Just my .02"

 

Oh my gosh this is me exactly!

Only, you know... I'm the W. But still, switch it around and I Totally agree.

[AnotherRound]

But she isn't here posting that. From what WF said, it sounds like she'd putting on a happy face in public, and dealing with her philandering husband privately.

 

Why should she leave her marriage? I mean, I can give all the reasons I would leave, but does that mean that she is doing something wrong by staying? I don't think so.

 

I agree - but that was the topic here - the BW and why she stays.

 

I'm not saying she should leave her marriage at all - that is completely her choice, not mine. I don't judge anyone who stays or leaves a marriage - as I am well aware that these are often very well thought out decisions on the parts of those making them - and often very difficult decisions (with factors and variables that I will never be privy to).

 

The OP was about why does this wife stay - perhaps this is why? Maybe she "likes being the victim" as jj said - maybe she stays for her kids - I just thought that putting it in quotes and making it sound all whiny would drive that point home since that's what jj did in his/her post (belittling the reasons a person stays) - that we usually don't know why someone stays, but their reasons are very valid to them, and therefore - valid. To make fun of that seems not only a bit judgy (okay, a lot) but also a bit mean spirited - and obviously, it invoked a reaction from you that I wasn't understanding of why this woman stays - bc the way I said it (all condescending like some others do about WSs staying on this board) is completely unempathetic and lacking any understanding or kindness for their fellow humans.

[Got it]

But she isn't here posting that. From what WF said, it sounds like she'd putting on a happy face in public, and dealing with her philandering husband privately.

 

Why should she leave her marriage? I mean, I can give all the reasons I would leave, but does that mean that she is doing something wrong by staying? I don't think so.

 

No, she isn't doing anything wrong. It just may not be the healthiest course of action for her. But she is an adult and it is her decision.

 

Like many say, that the OW deserves better than what a MM is offering, I would imagine that she deserves better than what her husband is offering her.

[AnotherRound]

First of all you got it wrong, he said it to her first. She mirrored it back later because she thought the pain of the statement would be just as painful to him as it was to her. Maybe it was, I don't know. If it were me, I'd see right through it but then again I am not codependent. I do, as you claim, understand more than most would in this situation, but I do not understand staying after nearly 20 Ddays if it's just for competition and comfort zone. I dumped all that myself after 25 years of M because at this stage in my life I need authenticity. How can I in my 40s have self-actualized but she in her 60s cannot? It's mind-boggling.*

 

 

*If competition and lifestyle are the reasons she stays.

 

Self actualization happens for VERY few people (as I'm sure you know) - and it is certainly shocking when you see people at advanced ages that are nowhere near it, I agree! I have that same reaction - but some people just don't even try. They super glue the blinders onto their head and put their head down and trudge through life like it's a race to the finish line of death - and, well, that's it. There is no learning, no growing, no experiencing - just breathing. I too find it crazy to live that way - but am less and less surprised when I see it nowadays -even in those that have been on this rock far longer than I have!

[AnotherRound]

When she told her best friend that xMM had moved back in her best friend then yelled and screamed at her because all the week prior she had told the bf she no longer loved him and then began to work at turning all her friends against him. In this case it worked! And when BW took him back she forgot she had turned some people against him. :/

 

Taking him back after admitting she no longer loved him was a lack of integrity. Integrity means words that equal your actions.

 

Leaving is easier than anyone thinks, but they don't know it until they overcome that hurdle. I've lived after a lot of hurdles, and D was probably one of the smallest ones.

 

I agree. But I also understand that many people are very fearful of divorce - they truly think it is the end all of their lives. And like you, in hindsight, it was one of the smallest I've endured.

 

I love the way you put this - this is what I used to tell exMM to the T! He had to get there on his own though, as did his now exW - and shocker? After all is said and done, they both have no idea what they were so afraid of... lol - isn't that how it always goes until you experience something? It seems like Mt. Everest and turns out to be nothing but a molehill in the yard of life.

[White Flower]

Why would the BS be worried? That makes absolutely no sense. She knows he ain't goin' NOwhere, so why worry?

If she is truly not worried then why does she go through his drawers in search of phones inside pockets and why does she insist he listen to his voicemails when he turns his phone on at the airport and listen to his messages in front of her? She will be worried for the rest of her life.

Um, perhaps you missed the part where she isn't a sneaky liar...

All kinds of people lack integrity not just APs. Btw, she is sneaky and she does lie. I've caught her in them and proven it several times but this thread is long enough as it is.

If I had "an intense fear" I would more than likely be worried.

 

All this talk about "if the BS leaves, she just KNOWS the OP and her ex will end up together" is what was being discussed. Apparently this BS has him in shackles in the basement.

 

If he wanted to be oh, so happy as some would like to think, he'd leave.

He is in his own shackles. And one day maybe he'll take them off. I may not see it, but I hope he sets himself free.

[Got it]

I am really confused by a lot of the posts here and maybe I am not reading this in as thorough a manner as I should. But don't most people here support that this BS is in a really crappy situation and deserves much better than the crap that her husband is delivering? That shouldn't she leave because alone HAS TO BE better than this? That life is too short to play police to one's wayward spouse and mommy to his bad little boy routine?

 

That bottomline, she, and ANY woman, deserves a man who actively shows her every day how absolutely lucky and blessed he is to have her in his life? And this gift is being completely wasted?

 

Am I wrong here? I feel like some posters are so caught up on who is posting that they are missing some of what the poster is saying.

[AnotherRound]

White Flower - empty your in box girl!!!!!

[AnotherRound]

I am really confused by a lot of the posts here and maybe I am not reading this in as thorough a manner as I should. But don't most people here support that this BS is in a really crappy situation and deserves much better than the crap that her husband is delivering? That shouldn't she leave because alone HAS TO BE better than this? That life is too short to play police to one's wayward spouse and mommy to his bad little boy routine?

 

That bottomline, she, and ANY woman, deserves a man who actively shows her every day how absolutely lucky and blessed he is to have her in his life? And this gift is being completely wasted?

 

Am I wrong here? I feel like some posters are so caught up on who is posting that they are missing some of what the poster is saying.

 

I agree with everything you said. Only thing is - she KNOWS the score - but chooses to stay. She could be experiencing Stockholm's Syndrome, I dunno - or, she likes the drama - or it really is a competition to her. Or, a combo of all of those - either way, she CHOOSES to stay.

 

The answer to the OP is that, "she chooses to stay. That's why she is there." Beyond that - it's all just conjecture -

[xxoo]

I don't understand why the focus (and criticism) is on her for not "self actualizing" at this age, and not having integrity (taking him back), when he is the same age and not self actualized, and has the same lack of integrity (went back).

 

Why would you expect her to be more together than him? They've lived a shared life, and learned shared dysfunction. Why is his more excusable?

[ladydesigner]

I guess I am one of those BW's. My WH has had a lot of blurred boundaries (possible EAs/PAs not proven) and 1 really physical and emotional A that gave me 4 DDays (that I know of). I believe my WH is a serial cheater and he wants to R and wants to change.

 

My WH is fighting for R more than I am. That is why I am staying at the moment. I love this man. I have spent 17 years with him and 12 of them married. We share 2 beautiful children and really are the best of friends.

 

I have gotten stronger from these DDays. I see the man I am married to is not the man I thought he was or what he is capable of.

 

The next time I experience a DDay will be the last day I am married to him without a doubt I have made up my mind. No 19 DDays here that's like suicide by a thousand cuts.

[White Flower]

Owl, many people do have a "blame the victim" attitude when it comes to abuse, be it emotional and/or physical abuse. It can be hard to understand what that kind of a situation does to one's mind if you haven't been through it yourself. Also, it makes people more confortable with the abuse, if they can see the abused person as responsible for bieng abused.

This doesn't really work with me. I've been the BW. I was long-suffering, Christian, praying, hoping, and fearing the D. One day I stoof up for myself and I never looked back. I've been there, and I've done that. People choose to remain vicitms if there is enough benefits in other areas to make up for it. For me, money and status were never greater than integrity and dignity.

[White Flower]

Maybe she enjoys this and all the drama with hidden phones and finding them and chewing his ass out just gives her life.

I have often stated to him how pathetic I find it that she has to go through all that drama just to get him to hold her. I've never had to do that to get him to hold me so if she wanted competition, there is was.

 

I do think the drama adds to the 'bonding' if you can call it that. That is not my kind of bonding.

[Got it]

I agree with everything you said. Only thing is - she KNOWS the score - but chooses to stay. She could be experiencing Stockholm's Syndrome, I dunno - or, she likes the drama - or it really is a competition to her. Or, a combo of all of those - either way, she CHOOSES to stay.

 

The answer to the OP is that, "she chooses to stay. That's why she is there." Beyond that - it's all just conjecture -

 

Yep, that was my first post on this back on page 1000 before all the bi**hing and potshots back and forth.

 

I thought most people agreed that people are where they want to be.

 

It's like bizarro world in here.

[xxoo]

I have often stated to him how pathetic I find it that she has to go through all that drama just to get him to hold her. I've never had to do that to get him to hold me so if she wanted competition, there is was.

 

I do think the drama adds to the 'bonding' if you can call it that. That is not my kind of bonding.

 

Huh? Who manufactures the drama--the person buying and hiding phones, or the person who finds them?

 

It sounds like he is the one thriving on drama. What is more fun than women fighting over you? Not much.

[AnotherRound]

I don't understand why the focus (and criticism) is on her for not "self actualizing" at this age, and not having integrity (taking him back), when he is the same age and not self actualized, and has the same lack of integrity (went back).

 

Why would you expect her to be more together than him? They've lived a shared life, and learned shared dysfunction. Why is his more excusable?

 

I don't know - I don't expect anything from her at all. I was just answering the post.

 

I do find it interesting though that you say this -that she shouldn't have more expected of her than he does him - but people often do this. They pick a side (BS, let's say for argument's sake) and they expect everyone else around that person to be held to a higher standard - they expect MORE from everyone but the side that they have picked. I don't get it either...

 

As for me - I expect her to do what she is comfortable with doing and making her own decisions. That's it - I accept whatever she chooses, even if I don't understand it - bc it's not MY decision, nor will I feel any of the fallout from her decisions - I have nothing at stake.

 

That being said - we were just discussing possibilities as to why she doesn't leave - that was the OP. And, it never hurts to guess - brainstorming and discussing is like sit ups for the brain

[White Flower]

 

I think the reasons that it's difficult for me to understand it is because I would not, will not, could not find anything remotely tolerable about a man who has multiple affairs, either as a bs or a ow. I think it is a very sick dynamic for all three in such a triangle and any one of them or all three need professional help. I would guess there is abuse, co dependency and a host of other disorders going on in a situation like that for at least 2 of them and probably all 3.

I did not find him 'cheating' on me but I did find open doors and that was enough to make me walk. He shut those doors and came after me and we worked it out. How it's not ok for a nonM couple to work things out when it's ok for a M couple to is beyond me.

 

xMM has been hypnotized and no abuse has been found but that doesn't make it conclusive. I feel there might have been. His IC says childhood abuse doesn't matter, and isn't a factor, many MM seek happiness during their M in As but most find a way to deal with it in leaving and being with the partner that suits them best. This is where codependency has been a factor in this particular SC's story. He's been in IC for several years now.

 

BW has been in IC for several years now.

 

As a self-help [FONT=Calibri][sIZE=3]connoisseur I don't feel I need therapy but I did go for 6 sessions and found them to be very helpful. [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][sIZE=3][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri][sIZE=3]I hope you are not dissing people who need therapy just because it pleases you to do so.[/sIZE][/FONT]