Can't sleep tonight...

[AnotherRound]

Perhaps lie is the wrong word as it implies intent. Most of the time when the stories of our life that we tell ourselves turn out to be wrong, it is that we did not know enough to understand we were wrong at the time. It is usually unintentional.

 

Have you never understood 10 years down the road that an event in your life meant something other than what you thought at the time? I would find that impossible to believe. We grow, we learn, we change and sometimes we find out that things were not as they seemed.

 

I have no idea whether it is more common statistically in A. Certainly, anectdotally it is very common. There is just no disputing the fact that lots of affairs follow the same script with foggy thinking/behavior being a part of them.

 

I dont agree that relationships are relationships. Comparing an affair to a marriage is apples/oranges in my view.

 

I can see what you are saying here.

 

I don't think that comparing them is apples and oranges - as to me, there is little distinction between the two UNLESS there is deceit.

 

If I said "there is just no disputing the fact that lots of marriages follow the same script with foggy thinking/behavior being part of them" - how would you react to that? I mean, would you find truth in that? I think that a lot of marriages DO follow the same script - but I KNOW that's a generalization, so I try to avoid it. Do you not feel that it's a generalization to say it in regards to affairs? Curious....

[anne1707]

I am baffled at the idea of not understanding the consequences. I was very aware of what I was doing and the choices I was making. But I have no interest in not owning 100% of what I have done down to sneezing in the wrong direction.

 

Please tell me where I said I did not understand the consequences.

 

Also please tell me where I said I have not owned 100% of what I have done.

 

It seems you are putting words in my mouth Not impressed. Though rather amused.

[Owl]

It seems to me that you have your own very personal definition of "fog".

 

I suggest reading this article from Surviving Infidelity for better understanding how the term is usually used on infidelity forums:

 

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for Those Affected by Infidelity

 

The short explanation is: "The best way to describe the WS fog is to think of it as a type of being 'brainwashed'." Seems to be something very different than what you are describing.

 

The reasoning behind the description you plucked is simple...prior to the affair, the WS typically seemed capable of what appeared to others as logical, rational thought. An understanding of action/cause/consequences. During an affair, and for a while after, many WS's don't demonstrate that same level of capability. Their emotions have overrun their ability to think rationally/intelligently. They're not thinking of consequences, the future, impacts to themselves or the ones around them, etc...

 

"Foggy thinking"..."unclear thinking".

 

Very much what Anne described, very much what I've seen demonstrated repeatedly here and in the "real world".

 

That "brainwashed" reference isn't far off, as it seems very similar to the completely irrational/illogical thinking demonstrated by those in 'cults' and such where 'brainwashing' has occurred. And like that, once the WS is removed from the affair, they typically SLOWLY resume more typical (for them, and for others) thought/reasoning patterns.

 

Of course...I can hear you raising the whole "conditioning" thing you raised in the "tough love" thread where you're convinced that they're somehow forced into thinking differently. I contend that the "unnatural" thinking occurred during the A and during the recovery/withdrawl phase...whereas you contend that the "unnatural" thinking occurs pre/post A, with the A being the only period in their lives where they're free to think "naturally".

 

I call BS on that...but that's just my opinion.

[anne1707]

Deleted - It's just not worth it......

[anne1707]

Since nobody quite knows what "fog" means, I suggest we use accepted terms such as rationalization, justification and denial instead. Makes it easier to have a discussion.

 

If we did not discuss things on which we had differing opinions and understandings then there would be no discussion at all on anything. That would seem rather pointless to me. Unless of course you feel the need to have everybody agreeing with your particular personal point of view.

[TheOW]

Since nobody quite knows what "fog" means, I suggest we use accepted terms such as rationalization, justification and denial instead. Makes it easier to have a discussion.

 

Our little Pierre the all seeing eye would happily answer this.

 

Omg I actually just pressed the @ to "tag" him in this post .... TOW this is not FB, **slap slap slap**

 

I need to get out more

[anne1707]

Why not use this terminology instead of some homemade one? Or is the word "fog" used on purpose to cloud the view that it really is defense mechanisms we are speaking off?

 

I guess some like to use the term "fog" as others like to use the term "split-self".

 

Not everybody agrees with "fog" and I am very sure there many who think "split-self" is used just to excuse sh*tty behaviour.

[Got it]

Please tell me where I said I did not understand the consequences.

 

Also please tell me where I said I have not owned 100% of what I have done.

 

It seems you are putting words in my mouth Not impressed. Though rather amused.

 

By saying its a fog, and what you describe it as, I see it as a bit like passing the buck. Or if it isn't passing the buck, you really are that disconnected with yourself that it is like the ball in a pinball machine.

I am telling you my thoughts on the fog and on what you posted.

Edited April 18, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[anne1707]

also not worth it

[anne1707]

I think she explained what her definition of being in the fog was.

 

Why is it when a fow takes responsibility and feels remorse for what they did, do the "happy" OW's jump all over them like they are somehow betraying the sisterhood of OW's or something?

 

I'm a fWS Paperangel

 

And thank you for the support

[Got it]

Oh please.

 

No, I could care less who Anne is and what her "title" may be. I have always had an issue with the term Fog, I feel AS A WS MYSELF that it allows some level of not owning one's decisions and so I ARGUE THAT PIECE.

 

It is not about Anne, it isn't about you, and it isn't about any one person. I say I wasn't in the fog because I don't give myself and quarter on my decision. I wasn't confused, forgetful, foggy or murky.

 

I was attracted, I felt I was owed it and I didn't care about the gamble of losing or hurting my spouse. I was okay with gambling him and being selfish enough to put it in action. I did not have a moments hesitation or second thought. I didn't give him any thought at all.

 

I own that and I, personally, do not try and soften it with anything remotely close to an excuse.

[anne1707]

Again please advise me where I have said I do not accept 100% responsibility for my actions. I do not lay any blame on either my H or the exOM so by default...

 

I was not forgetful and at least I did not think I was owed it

 

Fog does not mean no responsibility or excuse. I have never used the term in that way.

[Got it]

Anne, I am not talking about you. It is really the term. I think many can use it as way to excuse their own behavior or their spouse's behavior. That this mystery fog has floated down and stolen their faculties and it should left just as quickly and everything will go back to normal.

 

I see where someone with a victim mentality would latch onto it saying, to a degree, it was the fog's fault.

 

I am VERY happy that you have reconciled. I am sorry you have gone through any pain and that your spouse went through the pain he did and that you guys struggled.

 

And some of it is my limitation, I don't understand how one can gamble their spouse if they care for them at all? Just simple logic, but we don't tend to gamble things that are important to us. So making a decision(s) that leads someone down such a severe road and it wasn't (big picture) remotely close to what they actually wanted is really baffling for me. And this is my limitation.

 

With my affair I was at the point I didn't care. And its not like I hated him, I didn't. I was just done so why I didn't want to hurt him I wanted out and I was getting out. So because this was my road I struggle with other WS who seemed to have actually cared and are aghast with themselves and I am left scratching my head wondering "what did you think would happen?".

 

So I apologize, I am not trying to diminish you or your experience.

[anne1707]

Anne, I am not talking about you.

 

Seeing as you have been quoting my posts and then commenting on them, I am not quite sure how convinced I am by the above.

[Got it]

Seeing as you have been quoting my posts and then commenting on them, I am not quite sure how convinced I am by the above.

 

Anne, I am taking some of your comments and giving my opinion. I am not talking about you personally. You are interchangeable with anyone who would post those thoughts which has been done ad nauseum here and on other boards.

 

So let me state again, this isn't about you personally. I don't know you, I don't know your actions, I am in no place to judge you.

 

I thought this was well known online?

[anne1707]

Oh right, I forgot you are never anything more than amused no matter how stringent your posts.

 

I am not talking about you personally.

 

...., I am in no place to judge you.

 

Describing my posts as stringent yet not judging me or talking about me personally. OK. That all makes sense.

[Got it]

I think we all get that you don't believe in the term fog. btw, don't trip over that dead horse in front of you

 

Thank you Paper. Maybe I need to go on every thread in here and Infidelity and post about it.

[Got it]

Describing my posts as stringent yet not judging me or talking about me personally. OK. That all makes sense.

 

Anne, you have taken offense with me before when I disagreed with you. I have had frustration at what I perceived as over sensitivity to a differing opinion.

 

You are right, I was being petty and judging and I apologize.

[anne1707]

Anne, you have taken offense with me before when I disagreed with you. I have had frustration at what I perceived as over sensitivity to a differing opinion.

 

You are right, I was being petty and judging and I apologize.

 

There is a certain irony at this post. An insult and an "apology" in one

[Got it]

Anne and Paper, I am really not interested in fighting with you. I like to debate the points of view, I think that there is a lot of good insight and points of view and I am really just interested in learning from others, sharing my thoughts, and discuss things.

 

So, I have gotten frustrated today with all the rampant posting and I think I got caught up in the emotion. So if I have been inappropriate I apologize.

 

Can't we all just get along!?!

[anne1707]

I just came back to delete my last post because I thought no let it go.

 

I like the idea of getting on with each other

[Got it]

Thank you. That last post got my back up. I was going to give you my ex husband's no fail line, "you are 100% right and I am 100% wrong" to try and end this damn squabble!

 

I think it is easy to let a bi%chy comment fly and I don't think it is really most people's intentions here. I have envisioned many times how different all of this would be if everyone was face to face. I think there would be more kumbaya. Though I would worry about the potential for fisticuffs!

[Mme. Chaucer]

"Fog" is just a term used by BSs to disqualify the emotions in an EMR. An easy way out if you will to not have to acknowledge that the EMR is a relationship like any other.

 

No it's not. In fact, I think the term "affair fog" was coined by people who had experienced it - in affairs.

 

Why are you disqualifying their emotions?

[Got it]

Okay. My apology still stands. It felt like some of the comments were getting on the edge of insults so I was trying to do my part to rein it back in. I may be reacting to things differently then.

[cocorico]

The reasoning behind the description you plucked is simple...prior to the affair, the WS typically seemed capable of what appeared to others as logical, rational thought. An understanding of action/cause/consequences. During an affair, and for a while after, many WS's don't demonstrate that same level of capability. Their emotions have overrun their ability to think rationally/intelligently. They're not thinking of consequences, the future, impacts to themselves or the ones around them, etc...

 

"Foggy thinking"..."unclear thinking".

 

Very much what Anne described, very much what I've seen demonstrated repeatedly here and in the "real world".

 

That "brainwashed" reference isn't far off, as it seems very similar to the completely irrational/illogical thinking demonstrated by those in 'cults' and such where 'brainwashing' has occurred. And like that, once the WS is removed from the affair, they typically SLOWLY resume more typical (for them, and for others) thought/reasoning patterns.

 

 

Wow! That is exactly how my H's family and long-term friends describe how he was during his 1st M. They thought the aliens had left an anal probe or something in place that was controlling him. The "real" him was AWOL, and instead was this being in his body, a stranger to reason, completely programmed like a Moonie to trot out the accepted line....

 

One of the first things his sister said to me when we first met was, thank you for giving us our brother back. They thought I'd broken the spell and returned him to earth. And, when we've discussed it, it's a view he holds too, like Patty Hearst returning to being Patty Hearst after being Tanya.