Responsible for our own happiness...

[AnotherRound]

I'll say it again...why is the truth so damned hard?

 

As the saying goes " the truth shall set you free" ...and that is very valid...

 

 

Maybe some fear the truth because it would mean they'd have to face up to. The fact that they engaged in some pretty cruddy behaviour, and it would also give them their spouse the same knowledge they have and allow them to exercise their right of informed self determination...

 

I once read on here a long, long time ago about a " managed exit" ( as the " other person" phrased it) a d the whole idea seemed to be designed to shaft the spouse as much as possible....hide the truth and make their spouse think nothing is wrong so they would be blindsided when the cheating spouse said they want to leave ...

 

That was pretty nasty...

 

A LOT of people do a managed exit - it's called, getting your ducks in a row giving yourself the best chances of a favorable outcome. I don't consider it "nasty" but smart. Many people do this - not just WSs. ExMMs now exW did this - and good on her, she was smart. She made sure she had everything where it needed to be for her before she exited - just as exMM was trying to do. She did it a little bit better than he did though - and that's how it goes sometimes.

 

Nothing wrong with being prepared in life and not putting the cart before the horse - especially when considering legal (financial!) contracts.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I don't expect anyone else to make me happy. So, so far from that.

 

I do expect honesty in my relationships.

 

How can you convolute that into being dependent on another person for my happiness?

 

Edited April 18, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Bittersweetie]

I'm being a bit cheeky here, playing devil's advocate, but I'm intrigued to hear posters' views on something.

 

I believe we are all responsible for our own happiness. When we are happy we are the best 'us' we can be to those we care about and the world at large. I spent years putting others first, and have learnt great lessons.

 

We all want to be happy.

 

I was reading (in several threads today) an AP saying how happy they were, and someone piped up that they should, in turn, give their spouse the same chance of happiness by owning up to the affair and allowing their spouse to seek similar happiness in an EMR.

 

But... who's to say the spouse ISN'T happy enough? In principle, I mean. And if they *are* happy, why upset the apple cart?

 

If they aren't happy, aren't they as free as the WS to meet another person romantically, or to make other changes in their life that mean they CAN be happy? Should they be relying on their spouse to provide 'the happiness'?

 

My personal belief? I'm anti-deceit, without a shadow of a doubt, but I do wonder about the validity of the 'allow your spouse to be happy by telling them of the affair' statement I have seen so many times.

 

Discussion welcome

 

This is something I thought through in the aftermath of my d-day. I realized I expected my husband to provide my happiness and when he wasn't, I looked elsewhere. After a lot of self-examination, I realized that only I can provide my own personal happiness.

 

That said, I also realized that I can pursue that happiness, as long as it's not as the expense of another's happiness. If it's at someone else's expense, then it's just selfishness and lack of respect for others.

 

Also, I don't believe I've ever advocated telling the spouse about an affair to "allow your spouse to be happy"...I advocate telling them the truth so that they can make their own choices...regarding their own happiness or anything else related to their life...based on reality, not lies...maybe the BS would then pursue their own affair. But at least the married couple would be on the same page. My husband made a huge life choice based on what he thought was real but wasn't; he told me if he knew about my A, he would've made a different choice.

 

P.S. We are reconciled. I am married. And I am quite happy with myself and with him and my baby. (Though very tired.)

[Mme. Chaucer]

What difference does it make that the spouse had an affair? Why do some people need to be aware of another person's choices to make their OWN decisions?

 

 

Well, if my husband had an affair, it would make quite a bit of a difference to me!

 

Seriously, if I learned that he were so deceitful - I don't think I would even like him anymore.

 

And, yes indeed, learning that he was having an affair (or just screwing around, whatever) would influence my decision making going forward. Profoundly!

 

Part of being married, IMO, is making decisions that affect the people, and the essence of the relationship, together.

 

Do you seriously think that's weird? Really seriously?

 

Plenty of people, including myself for significant periods, don't want to be accountable to another person for decisions and choices. If that's how someone is, fine. But they should not be married.

[eleanorrigby]

I was surprised he cheated - but not really, lol. I mean, I wish he had taken a different route - but he chose what he chose.

 

Why did you wish he had chosen a different way of ending the marriage, what difference did it make to you?

[AnotherRound]

Well how about STD's for one reason.

 

Imo - if you have to question whether or not your spouse/SO is giving you an STD - then you are in the wrong relationship. Married or not - it just shouldn't be a question in a relationship based on trust.

[AnotherRound]

Hmmmm.....

 

Could be because some husbands and wives LOVE their spouse, believe in them and think that maybe they are going through a tough time and things, given some time and work, will get better...having a rough patch doesn't automatically that you want to leave...if you love your spouse and don't have it in you to cheat, then your " go-to" action is to try and work and make things better, not find someone else, have an affair or leave...

 

Especially if your spouse is lying to you and saying " everything is fine...stop bugging me" or " how dare you accuse me of cheating" or " I don't have a problem...you have a problem" since many affairs aren't all that long lasting, by the time the betrayed sure figures out for sure what is going on ( if they ever do, beyond something is wrong but I don't know what" ) the affair may either be over,on it's last legs or ends pretty quickly....they then have some decisions to make...

 

Btw... saying to a spouse that they are responsible for their own happiness, that they could leave if they wanted, that they shouldn't complain since they made the choice to stay is a double edged sword...should the same line be fed to every other man/woman who is unhappy or feels they were lied to/mistreated by their affair partner? That comes pretty close to " don't gripe...you knew what you were getting into, and you made the choice to have a relationship with a married person you should have been able to tell something was wrong "

 

I hope that's not what you are saying....

 

Nope - not what I was saying - and I disagreed when the same line of thinking was applied to APs in other threads.

 

What I am saying is - your choices shouldn't be dependent on someone else's choices. If they are - you aren't living life, you are simply reacting to external stimuli and that is a very passive way to live life - and is bound to get you hurt.

[AnotherRound]

Actually, it involved hiding assets, etc. from the betrayed spouse...yet another example of lying....are you really okay with that?

 

I wouldn't do it - but I don't judge others that do it - it's their choice. ExMM's now exW attempted to do this - I don't think it was the "right" thing to do - but I think she was smart to do it in a way - getting all of her ducks in a row (she did have to pay him back to the tune of like 50,000 dollars though eventually that she tried to hide)...

 

I think the difference is - I live and let live. It wouldn't be something I would feel "right" about doing - but some others do feel okay with it. They can live with it, they don't feel ashamed - so, who am I to tell them not to do it?

[AnotherRound]

Why did you wish he had chosen a different way of ending the marriage, what difference did it make to you?

 

It felt more unfair than just asking for a divorce. I would have liked for it to have felt more fair. I didn't expect it - but wished for it at the time. Also, because I was kicking myself for staying as long as I had - well past when I was happy or comfortable for my own reasons - and wishing I had seen the reality sooner - that I should have left.

[AnotherRound]

What???

 

Did you or did you not ask the following question???:

 

Originally Posted by AnotherRound

- why do they need to know something to make a decision?

 

What difference does it make that the spouse had an affair? Why do some people need to be aware of another person's choices to make their OWN decisions?

j

 

Yes, I asked that. So - your marriage is dependent on the risks of STDs? That would be the deciding factor for you to end it?

 

I say it again - if you have to question whether or not your spouse is exposing you to an STD - you are in the wrong relationship. I would not remain in a relationship that I even thought that was a remote possibility - and I certainly wouldn't wait around for him to come to me and say, "Hey, I'm exposing you to STDs - just thought you should know so that you could make some decisions" before leaving.

 

If you have NO idea that your spouse is having another sexual relationship - yes, that's unfair - but at that point, I can't imagine that you aren't at least considering the fact that your marriage isn't working. SOMETHING has to be showing up by that point - something that tells BOTH partners that there is something not working, not right - not meshing. I am not a believer in the "Oh, we were perfectly happy and everything was wonderful and then all of a sudden I found out that he had been seeing another woman for 90 years on the side!!!".

[eleanorrigby]

It felt more unfair than just asking for a divorce. I would have liked for it to have felt more fair. I didn't expect it - but wished for it at the time. Also, because I was kicking myself for staying as long as I had - well past when I was happy or comfortable for my own reasons - and wishing I had seen the reality sooner - that I should have left.

 

So for you, he kind of did you a kindness by having an affair?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Imo - if you have to question whether or not your spouse/SO is giving you an STD - then you are in the wrong relationship. Married or not - it just shouldn't be a question in a relationship based on trust.

 

Wait. In your opinion, the concept of trust in a relationship is only applicable where STD's might be involved? But not when the act of sex with another person when a promise of fidelity has been voluntarily made?

 

Why can't I wrap my mind around this?

[eleanorrigby]

j

 

If you have NO idea that your spouse is having another sexual relationship - yes, that's unfair - but at that point, I can't imagine that you aren't at least considering the fact that your marriage isn't working. SOMETHING has to be showing up by that point - something that tells BOTH partners that there is something not working, not right - not meshing. I am not a believer in the "Oh, we were perfectly happy and everything was wonderful and then all of a sudden I found out that he had been seeing another woman for 90 years on the side!!!".

 

I had no idea. So you advise that if a person is feeling like things are not right in the marriage, but not sure what, to stop having sex with their spouse and/or use condoms and all other measures you would use having sex as a single person?

[underwater2010]

I don't understand why her memories are any different. If she lived her whole life without knowing, had a happy life with him and experienced all the events of her life a certain way, why are they any different now? The experiences she had were still the experiences she had. They were happy then, why were they no longer happy?

I'm not being intentionally obtuse here, I just don't get it.

 

What's not to understand? She just found out that all her happy memories included being deceived. Yes they were the same experiences, but there were lies included in them.

[AnotherRound]

Either I have had too much cold medicine today or I am not getting what you are saying.

 

Did you not ask for a reason why a bs would need to know if their spouse had an affair or not? I would think the risk of std's would be a reason why a spouse would need to know if their H was having an affair so they could make a choice.

 

I'm so confused now I can't even remember what the topic of this thread is anymore.

 

Lol... same!

 

I was saying that the STDs are not "the" reason that someone would want to know in regards to deciding the fate of their marriage. Of course they have a right to know if they are being exposed to STDs - everyone does - but that's a different issue. Would the only reason that you end the marriage be bc of the STDs and NOT the actual affair? It's an aside - I was talking about reasons for staying or leaving a marriage - not reasons they "should" know about EM sexual relationships -

 

If you want to leave your marriage - leave. If you want to stay - stay. That should be completely based on YOU and your thoughts, feelings, contentment etc. It's acting in life and not just waiting around to react. If you are happy in your marriage - and then find out that your spouse is having an affair - I'm sure that would change your feelings about the marriage - but you shouldn't (IMO) need someone else to tell you if you are happy or not.

[AnotherRound]

I had no idea. So you advise that if a person is feeling like things are not right in the marriage, but not sure what, to stop having sex with their spouse and/or use condoms and all other measures you would use having sex as a single person?

 

I wouldn't have sex with anyone that I didn't trust 100% to not expose me to STDs. If you choose to, despite feeling like something is "off" - that's' your choice - I would not.

 

If they "tricked" me and gave me an STD - I would no longer trust them 100% and yes, the sex would stop. Not even with protection - there would be NO MORE SEX with that person again, ever.

 

What other people do is their business - but for me, I wouldn't be in a relationship that I couldn't trust 100% - marriage or not. If I trusted them, and they tricked me - bygones - it happens.

[eleanorrigby]

 

If you want to leave your marriage - leave. If you want to stay - stay. That should be completely based on YOU and your thoughts, feelings, contentment etc. It's acting in life and not just waiting around to react. If you are happy in your marriage - and then find out that your spouse is having an affair - I'm sure that would change your feelings about the marriage - but you shouldn't (IMO) need someone else to tell you if you are happy or not.

 

I'm not sure if that is what people are saying, that we need our spouses to verify if we are happy or not.

We just want honesty.

[MissBee]

I dont believe what is meant is what you conclude to be meant.

It is not a matter of providing the spouse with happiness, but rather, providing the spouse with the truth of their reality so that they can decide if they are truly happy.

Of course they may be happy in their fictional life, but that is not true happiness whether provided by the Ws or not.

 

That's how I take it to mean too.

 

It's tyrannical to deceive and create a fictional reality for someone else to further your own ends. Most of our interactions with others is based on some level of trust in that they will do what they say they will do, are who they say they are etc. In a marriage especially, this ability to be secure in that reality is of central importance.

 

Being transparent, by not having secret affairs, helps to create a "real reality" and makes it so that any choice made therein is based on that person choosing it and not based on them thinking they are choosing one thing but really you have something else up your sleeve, and have decided unilaterally that it's best for them.

[eleanorrigby]

I wouldn't have sex with anyone that I didn't trust 100% to not expose me to STDs. If you choose to, despite feeling like something is "off" - that's' your choice - I would not.

 

If they "tricked" me and gave me an STD - I would no longer trust them 100% and yes, the sex would stop. Not even with protection - there would be NO MORE SEX with that person again, ever.

 

What other people do is their business - but for me, I wouldn't be in a relationship that I couldn't trust 100% - marriage or not. If I trusted them, and they tricked me - bygones - it happens.

 

What happens if they trick you and you get a terminal STD?

[eleanorrigby]

I still don't understand.

 

If I were to have a wonderful christmas (just as an example) that included presents and brunch and time with family and friends, and the day was absolutely lovely and "perfect" then I found out that there was something else going on underneath that I had no knowledge of at the time, and didn't know about til years later and it did not impact ANYTHING about that day, why does that ruin that memory? I still had a wonderful christmas that was everything I wanted.

 

I do admit that I often see things that I don't fully understand, and I may just look at things differently, I'm not sure, but I really don't understand.

 

The memory changes when the foundation it was based on changes.

I've read that memories are reconstructed each time we remember them.

 

An example from a book I have:

 

Other events that occur after the original event can change the memory of the original event. At the original event, you and your cousin were close friends. But later on you have an argument and a falling out that lasts for years. Over time when you recall the memory of the first event it changes without you realizing it. It starts to include your memory of your cousin being aloof and cold, even if that's not true. The later experience has changed your memory.

 

So to have new information does literally change the memories, good ones become bad ones.

[MissBee]

But happy is happy, no? If I had a fabulous dinner and later found out it was not beef, but horse, does the knowledge mean it did not taste as great at the time?

 

I'm not disagreeing with you but someone I love maintains that if her H cheated, but gave her no reason to suspect, i.e. she felt loved and fulfilled by the relationship, she would not want him to tell her and would not want me to tell her.

 

I struggled for a long time to get my head around that, she has given it more thought than I and is adamant, and happy with her choice.

 

I understand the ignorance is bliss idea but it's only bliss if one is kept ignorant of it forever, and even still, just because one doesn't know something, does it mean it's ethical? I would say no. Telling someone something is beef when it's horse meat is unethical. Imagine a scenario where someone was deathly allergic to horse meat, you had no idea, but served it to them pretending it was beef! Once we start falsifying information, we make it such that things can get pretty dicey, both for us and other people.

 

However, if one was once ignorant then the truth comes to light, like the horse meat case or in the case of an affair, it does change things and does color the "happiness" one found at the time. Happy is not happy no matter what for me personally. I understand wanting to remain ignorant...but I think that is an after thought, like well the person has betrayed me, but spare me the pain of finding out. I would rather my spouse not have an affair, if he did and I didn't know and felt content, then so it is....but if I end up finding out then it will indeed make a difference. And if something will affect me greatly upon me finding out...then my policy is, it is best not to allow that person to be ignorant of it.

[Spark1111]

If it "should" win, then why doesn't it? There are reasons it doesn't win - and it's not "bad people don't let it". BSs are just as free as their WSs to leave the marriage - why do they need to know something to make a decision? If their marriage is working for them - why would they want to leave? Bc it isn't working for their spouse? Isn't that why so many people try to reconcile after a Dday anyway - that they still try to make it work when it wasn't working anyways?

 

What difference does it make that the spouse had an affair? Why do some people need to be aware of another person's choices to make their OWN decisions?

 

I get it - if the spouse is completely blindsided - but honestly, how often does that happen? That someone is cheated on and TRULY, in their heart of hearts, believes that their marriage was all unicorns and rainbows? I didn't - I KNEW my marriage was effed up. I was surprised he cheated - but not really, lol. I mean, I wish he had taken a different route - but he chose what he chose. I "should have" left before the affair - when I was unhappy and clinging to a dead marriage that was NEVER going to work - but I didn't. I chose to stay and it escalated. I shouldn't have "needed" his decision to make my own - hindsight.

 

And now, I don't wait for the other person's decisions to make my own. I choose on my own - I don't just react in life, I act. I learned from my previous marriage - as it made me realize that my decisions "should not" be contingent upon someone else's decisions and just reacting to them.

 

Do you DOUBT BSs were completely blindsided by their spouse's affair because you were in a crappy marriage and were not?

 

Did I just read that? That YOU think that is extremely RARE?

 

My, my. I know a jab when I see one too. I'll let it go.

 

What does any of this have to do with expecting your spouse to make you happy?

 

Truthful, yes. Happy? No.

 

My expectations were for my spouse to be honest with me, not be responsible to make me happy. Honesty was of importance to me. I made myself pretty darn happy.

[AnotherRound]

I'm not sure if that is what people are saying, that we need our spouses to verify if we are happy or not.

We just want honesty.

 

And that makes sense to me. I get it - that if you KNEW your spouse was cheating, you would make a different decision. I get that completely.

 

I was just talking about some that seem to need someone else to make a decision before they can make their own - I know that's not you - and you just wanted honesty, and you deserved that. But I think some people simply go through life reacting - never making their OWN choices until they find out what someone else's choices are.

[eleanorrigby]

And that makes sense to me. I get it - that if you KNEW your spouse was cheating, you would make a different decision. I get that completely.

 

I was just talking about some that seem to need someone else to make a decision before they can make their own - I know that's not you - and you just wanted honesty, and you deserved that. But I think some people simply go through life reacting - never making their OWN choices until they find out what someone else's choices are.

 

I don't think I'm rare in wanting honesty.

And I have and do and will put some choices on hold until I can get an answer from my husband on what he thinks of it.

I just need to know where I stand. Do you love me? Can this be fixed? Do you want to help me fix it? Do you want to fix it?

I waited to get some of those answers before just walking out the door.

[AnotherRound]

Do you DOUBT BSs were completely blindsided by their spouse's affair because you were in a crappy marriage and were not?

 

Did I just read that? That YOU think that is extremely RARE?

 

My, my. I know a jab when I see one too. I'll let it go.

 

What does any of this have to do with expecting your spouse to make you happy?

 

Truthful, yes. Happy? No.

 

My expectations were for my spouse to be honest with me, not be responsible to make me happy. Honesty was of importance to me. I made myself pretty darn happy.

 

It wasn't a jab. I honestly have a hard time believing that two people who are married to one another, living in the same house, can really truly see things absolutely opposite. I tend to believe that if that does happen, that someone is not being honest with themselves about their relationship - and that is willful denial, not a passive thing that just happened to them.

 

I understand expecting honesty - I think we all want that and choose partners that we believe we can expect it from. But, to me, how can you not see a change in your partner? I mean - if a person is unhappy for YEARS - that's going to show up - it just is, and especially to someone "close" to them. I'm not saying that the BS did anything wrong if they truly did not see it and were NOT willfully denying the reality - I just don't see HOW they did not know that something was not working.

 

Not saying it doesn't happen - obviously it does - it's just really hard for me to understand.