Responsible for our own happiness...

[beenburned]

Bittersweetie,

 

Great example!

 

Most of my long term resentments after our reconciliation were all about major life changing decisions that I had made without the truth.(MANY)

 

It was mind boggling to realize my H not only withheld the truth, but actively discouraged me to accept job promotions where it meant a lot more money/advancement for me!

 

If I could do it all over again(having that knowledge), I would have looked after my best interests instead of always giving in to what he wanted.

[Silly_Girl]

Bittersweetie,

 

Great example!

 

Most of my long term resentments after our reconciliation were all about major life changing decisions that I had made without the truth.(MANY)

 

It was mind boggling to realize my H not only withheld the truth, but actively discouraged me to accept job promotions where it meant a lot more money/advancement for me!

 

If I could do it all over again(having that knowledge), I would have looked after my best interests instead of always giving in to what he wanted.

 

For me, that last paragraph is part of the reason I began the thread. It stands regardless of whether there is infidelity or not.

[AnotherRound]

I guess that's where I get stuck. Do people really NOT always make sure that their own best interests are being looked after?

I don't care how much I love someone if I don't WANT to move, we aren't going to move. If I don't WANT to give up a job I love i'm not going to unless there is a BETTER job waiting for me because it's important that everyone have what they want. If I'm giving up my stuff so they can have their stuff... that's not a fair trade off.

I understand marriage is about compromise, but I don't think people should be compromising on the big stuff.

I'd never be asking someone to give up stuff they didn't want to give up for me. If I had a new amazing great job, if he already had an amazing great job he loved why would he have to give his up? Why should I be taking the one for me? Why would mine matter more? Why don't we both find something that works and makes both of us happy enough that we would be that happy without it dependent on the other person?

Oh. Lightbulb moment. Maybe that's why I don't expect him to leave. Maybe I do think that much differently than other people.

 

Or - giving up stuff only to hold it against their partner later when it doesn't work out or go the way they wanted or whatever. There are a LOT of martyrs in this world - who think that they are being less selfish by "giving in" to someone else - yet, they don't really want to give in, and they aren't truly compromising - just giving in and then holding it against their partner forever more.

 

It can turn into a pretty vicious cycle over the years - and lead to a lot of resentment and therefore, distance. I agree - we all compromise at times - but compromise is not "always giving in" and one partner always getting what's best for them. It has to be beneficial to BOTH people in the relationship - and if it's not, I'm not going for it.

 

You aren't alone in your thinking - you're just at a different place than some others. Some think that a relationship is a contract to always sacrifice and they see that as noble, altruistic - and anything less as "selfish". It's not a balanced view of it - but it is how some see it. And, if someone is like Mother Teresa and can willingly sacrifice, with no resentment or anger or bitterness - more power to them - but most people just aren't capable of it. They give stuff up and then want to bring it up for the next million years ... "BUT, I MOVED because you wanted to! and it's not fair!". That's not compromise, and it's not altruistic - it's just a recipe for resentment.

[Esoteric Elf]

I feel happy often and I feel lucky often, and not at anyone's expense, I don't really identify with your viewpoint here.

I would not expect most people to understand this (my particular situation), but allow me to illustrate with what I would call a weak but easy-to-understand example so as to get across my meaning. Say you have been in a few relationships. Obviously, being in them made you happy; however, if they ended, there was almost certainly pain involved and not on one party's side to boot. That is, with happiness, came pain at someone else's expense. Get my point? If one is sans relationships, that person has never hurt anyone with respect to this point. Again, a weak example, but hopefully an easily understood one.

 

The more something is worth, the more risk is usually involved, and love, being of great worth, involves a great risk.

[beenburned]

LFH,

I am from a different generation than most of the BS's here.

 

I was raised in a conservative Christian household. You were taught that a good Christian wife always puts the best interests of her family and H first.

(a good H also)

 

So to realize my H was not only cheating on me, but also manipulated my life with all his lies, was mind blowing to someone as naive as me!

 

Also I chose H to marry over many other men because I thought our family backgrounds were the most similar.(they were) But he chose to go against everything he believed in when he cheated.

[GorillaTheater]

Of course, it's difficult to make optimal decisions, whether for yourself or a group, without access to relevant information. Especially relevant information being held back by a person you mistakenly believe is part of your team.

[Bittersweetie]

I guess that's where I get stuck. Do people really NOT always make sure that their own best interests are being looked after?

I don't care how much I love someone if I don't WANT to move, we aren't going to move. If I don't WANT to give up a job I love i'm not going to unless there is a BETTER job waiting for me because it's important that everyone have what they want. If I'm giving up my stuff so they can have their stuff... that's not a fair trade off.

I understand marriage is about compromise, but I don't think people should be compromising on the big stuff.

I'd never be asking someone to give up stuff they didn't want to give up for me. If I had a new amazing great job, if he already had an amazing great job he loved why would he have to give his up? Why should I be taking the one for me? Why would mine matter more? Why don't we both find something that works and makes both of us happy enough that we would be that happy without it dependent on the other person?

Oh. Lightbulb moment. Maybe that's why I don't expect him to leave. Maybe I do think that much differently than other people.

 

I think in a healthy marriage...both parties are looking out for each other's best interests, because they care about and respect each other. In big decisions, no one takes one for the team...because a healthy couple will come to a decision together. Not by compromising...but by deciding together what works for both of them.

[Silly_Girl]

BUT - where there is infidelity, there is a GREAT deal of sly, clever manipulation. And THAT is the key.

 

But the statement is valid REGARDLESS. I don't understand the point of your post - can you help me?

[Silly_Girl]

I would not expect most people to understand this (my particular situation), but allow me to illustrate with what I would call a weak but easy-to-understand example so as to get across my meaning. Say you have been in a few relationships. Obviously, being in them made you happy; however, if they ended, there was almost certainly pain involved and not on one party's side to boot. That is, with happiness, came pain at someone else's expense. Get my point? If one is sans relationships, that person has never hurt anyone with respect to this point. Again, a weak example, but hopefully an easily understood one.

 

The more something is worth, the more risk is usually involved, and love, being of great worth, involves a great risk.

 

I'm so sorry. And please don't think I'm being obtuse. I don't get it.

 

If I was in a relationship and happy, and the other person was happy too, and something changed and one party ended it... (Although often endings are mutual) the dumped person will be sad. Is that your point?

 

But if both parties were happy then there was no sacrifice at that point. Taking your example, two happy people turned in to two unhappy people (one got unhappy and left, one became unhappy when dumped).

 

Oh, this is too much for me after the day I've had!!

[Bittersweetie]

Well that's where I'm confused then. If it isn't something that will make both people happy, no matter what... then why would it work for both of them?

That's what I mean... you used the example of moving for a job, which was why I stuck iwth it (too many examples on a thread and I start to get lost!)

For my example let's assume that I'm in a married couple for ease and less confusion.

So, let's say I was a journalist and I had an AMAZING job that I loved in San Francisco CA. It was everything I had ever wanted and I went to work very happy every day.

Now let's say my husband was an architect. And he was offered the opportunity to head up a major project in Orlando FL. It's HIS dream job and he knows he would love it.

We both like both places and would be willing to live in either.

However to live in FL, I'd have to quit my job. If I'm not willing to do that without him, should I be willing to do that with him?

I guess that's my question. Or should the two of us find a solution where no one feels like they are entering a situation where, NO MATTER WHAT, they will be pleased with the outcome?

 

Is my thinking that off? Maybe it's my perspective from having my whole life plan changed that makes me think that way. I now know that you can't base a plan around someone else, no matter how good the intentions are because you can't know the outcome.

 

I'm not sure what to say to this, LFH. If you enter a situation where both you and your H both truly want something that would be amazing, and there is absolutely no room for both sides of the team to be happy, then, if you want to stay together, one person would have to give up something for the other person's happiness. But I would think in a healthy relationship, that "giving up" is done with open eyes and a giving heart, it would not create resentment.

[GorillaTheater]

There is no way in hell I would EVER be all "ME ME ME MEEEEEEE" in a R. Best to be alone if one wants to be that self centered.

 

Anybody with kids knows that it stops being all about them as soon as it's time to schedule that first OB/Gyn appointment.

 

Hell, if it was up to me I'd be content to live in a conch shack and pick up cans on the beach for a living. That stopped being an option a long time ago.

[Esoteric Elf]

I'm so sorry. And please don't think I'm being obtuse. I don't get it.

 

If I was in a relationship and happy, and the other person was happy too, and something changed and one party ended it... (Although often endings are mutual) the dumped person will be sad. Is that your point?

 

But if both parties were happy then there was no sacrifice at that point. Taking your example, two happy people turned in to two unhappy people (one got unhappy and left, one became unhappy when dumped).

 

Oh, this is too much for me after the day I've had!!

No problem.

 

Yes, a (or more than one) person will be "unhappy" (delicate way of putting it) once the relationship ends; thus ushers in pain (less delicate way of putting it). Mutually severed relationships, from what I have read, though, seem to be a rarity. Sure, people may acheive finality, but pain teems beneath the surface and at least one party is usually hurt. Your world seems so happy-go-lucky that the concept of people being hurt in relationships almost seems like a new concept for you, from what I gather.

[PhoenixRise]

You can't if it's not going to make YOU happy too though. Eventually it will come back to bite you and you'll be left far from home with nothing to lean on but yourself, and when that happens you'll have made choices for someone else that gained you nothing and have to start over and you won't even trust in your own choices anymore because you've been "agreeing for the greater good" while not listening to yourself.

 

You know what LFH?

 

Former BS here and I agree with you.

 

I do think that honesty in a marriage is crucial and that hiding an affair unfairly tilts the table and infringes on the BS ability to make informed choices about their lives.

 

I made choices about where to live, how far away to move, how many children to have, to leave a job I was good at and enjoyed, how to handle investments, to become a SAHM and a million other life changing things without the knowledge that my H was cheating. I would have chosen many things differently if I had had all the facts. It was a crappy, manipulative thing for my H to do.

 

And many of those choices were made for what I understood to be the greater good of our collective with me deferring what was good for me in favor of what was good for us.

 

It was me completely undervaluing me.

 

I will never again make choices that don't account for my personal happiness. If my H were to get a fabulous opportunity, it would have to be an opportunity that truly worked for both of our happiness indivually and collectively.

 

Not saying that I don't/won't make decisions with his happiness in mind. Just saying I will never again see my happiness as optional.

[ThatJustHappened]

I'm being a bit cheeky here, playing devil's advocate, but I'm intrigued to hear posters' views on something.

 

I believe we are all responsible for our own happiness. When we are happy we are the best 'us' we can be to those we care about and the world at large. I spent years putting others first, and have learnt great lessons.

 

We all want to be happy.

 

I was reading (in several threads today) an AP saying how happy they were, and someone piped up that they should, in turn, give their spouse the same chance of happiness by owning up to the affair and allowing their spouse to seek similar happiness in an EMR.

 

But... who's to say the spouse ISN'T happy enough? In principle, I mean. And if they *are* happy, why upset the apple cart?

 

If they aren't happy, aren't they as free as the WS to meet another person romantically, or to make other changes in their life that mean they CAN be happy? Should they be relying on their spouse to provide 'the happiness'?

 

My personal belief? I'm anti-deceit, without a shadow of a doubt, but I do wonder about the validity of the 'allow your spouse to be happy by telling them of the affair' statement I have seen so many times.

 

Discussion welcome

 

Most affairs come out eventually, and the longer they go on the more potential there is for pain and humiliation for the BS. If you had a life-threatening illness but had no symptoms, would you rather remain blissfully ignorant until you keeled over or would you want to know so you could decide on your own terms what you want to do about it?

 

**Please excuse the crude comparison. I know I'll get attacked for comparing affairs to illness but I couldn't think of any other way to get my point across. Of course a life threatening illness is far, far worse than an affair and I mean no disrespect to anyone.**

[Silly_Girl]

No problem.

 

Yes, a (or more than one) person will be "unhappy" (delicate way of putting it) once the relationship ends; thus ushers in pain (less delicate way of putting it). Mutually severed relationships, from what I have read, though, seem to be a rarity. Sure, people may acheive finality, but pain teems beneath the surface and at least one party is usually hurt. Your world seems so happy-go-lucky that the concept of people being hurt in relationships almost seems like a new concept for you, from what I gather.

 

I find your last statement pretty funny, given the path I've trodden so far

 

Thank you for explaining... Now I understand, and disagree with the example. But I appreciate you taking time.

[Silly_Girl]

Most affairs come out eventually, and the longer they go on the more potential there is for pain and humiliation for the BS. If you had a life-threatening illness but had no symptoms, would you rather remain blissfully ignorant until you keeled over or would you want to know so you could decide on your own terms what you want to do about it?

 

**Please excuse the crude comparison. I know I'll get attacked for comparing affairs to illness but I couldn't think of any other way to get my point across. Of course a life threatening illness is far, far worse than an affair and I mean no disrespect to anyone.**

 

Hmmm, I totally see your point, just trying to relate this back to the OP. My initial post was about making choices that suit us as individuals and not relying on others for our happiness...

[Esoteric Elf]

I find your last statement pretty funny, given the path I've trodden so far

 

Thank you for explaining... Now I understand, and disagree with the example. But I appreciate you taking time.

And you certainly can disagree, but can you give me reasoning as to why you disagree? Are you saying there is no pain in relationships??

 

Btw, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

[ThatJustHappened]

Hmmm, I totally see your point, just trying to relate this back to the OP. My initial post was about making choices that suit us as individuals and not relying on others for our happiness...

 

You're right, I quoted the wrong post. Oopsies! Sorry, long day.

[ThatJustHappened]

Guess what? My husband died in the military.

DIED.

Gone, dead, buried. I miscarried our child during his funeral. He wasn't even 30.

Want to know when that happened?

After I made the choice to move away from from my home. Gave up the school I wanted, the career I was working towards, all my friends, thousands of miles from my family.

Because it was the "right" thing to do.

 

And you know what? You're not new here, so you knew that.

 

So next time someone tries to make me feel bad for something I said on here, I hope you know that tonight you made ME go to bed sobbing, and I can only think you did it on purpose. How many of your little buddies were in on the behind the scenes PMs on this one?

 

Thanks. You're *lovely* and right about now all I can think is how miserable a person you must be.

So don't tell me I don't know about military familys, you... frankly if I could think of something mean enough to say to you I'd be happy to get banned over saying it.

What a mean thing to do... and to know that you did it on purpose. Just.. wow.

 

I didn't know either. I'm so sorry LFH.

[Silly_Girl]

And you certainly can disagree, but can you give me reasoning as to why you disagree? Are you saying there is no pain in relationships??

 

Btw, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you?

 

I'm in my thirties.

 

I don't agree relationships can't cause pain. Your example of someone being dumped causing unhappiness - one person getting happiness at the other's expense, didn't work for me because 2 people were happy, then 2 people were not.

 

The OP was about taking responsibility for our own happiness

[Silly_Girl]

So if your almost new husband cheats on you from the moment of "I do", and you find out 2 years from now, you will be okay with it? I mean, he made you (and his OW) happy, so you will have no reason to b*tch and moan about how HE did you wrong?

 

Going back to the OP, I was discussing whether infidelity automatically means the BS is unhappy, and whether I should be putting my best interests first irrespective. So if I am happy, and putting my best interests first, I am certainly best placed to deal with something that arises, rather than if I had subjugated myself and put his needs first. What do you think? I am talking about whether having 2 happy years (2 yrs = your example) but then discovering infidelity means those years will change from being happy to being unhappy. Do you think they would?

[Esoteric Elf]

I'm in my thirties.

 

I don't agree relationships can't cause pain. Your example of someone being dumped causing unhappiness - one person getting happiness at the other's expense, didn't work for me because 2 people were happy, then 2 people were not.

Wait. What do you mean you don't agree that relationships can't cause pain. This statement, logically (A ≡ ~(~A)), is the equivalent of what I said (relationships can cause pain); so you agree there is truth in that statement. So you don't believe in someone being used? You also believe that a break-up always hurts both parties? Incorrect. There are relationships where only one party is hurt. Think about FWB, etc.

 

The OP was about taking responsibility for our own happiness

You are correct; however, my original post centered in on one particular comment you made, if you recall: the one concerning everyone wishes to be happy, and my comment focused on what can occur if everyone wishes to obtain happiness, often times without thought of others .

[Silly_Girl]

Wait. What do you mean you don't agree that relationships can't cause pain. This statement, logically (A ≡ ~(~A)), is the equivalent of what I said (relationships can cause pain); so you agree there is truth in that statement. So you don't believe in someone being used? You also believe that a break-up always hurts both parties? Incorrect. There are relationships where only one party is hurt. Think about FWB, etc.

 

 

You are correct; however, my original post centered in on one particular comment you made, if you recall: the one concerning everyone wishes to be happy, and my comment focused on what can occur if everyone wishes to obtain happiness, often times without thought of others .

 

Relationships can cause pain, yes. I agree with you. As for someone being used, tell me what you're asking me to consider?

 

Your example was of a couple breaking up, and you said one person's happiness was at the expense of another, and what you actually cited didn't prove your point, for me.

 

Lets take FWB.... what aspect of such a relationship are you tapping in to? Are you saying that parties in a FWB aren't looking out for their own best interests, aren't prioritising their own happiness?

 

Maybe there's a specific situation you have in mind that I'm not au fait with...

[Esoteric Elf]

Relationships can cause pain, yes. I agree with you. As for someone being used, tell me what you're asking me to consider?

Original Post:

I get what you mean, but for me, happiness is not something I want; rather, contentment is what I strive for. Perhaps it was the lack of happiness early on in life or the not wanting such a feeling to leave. I rarely get a feeling of "happiness" as it were. It seems that when everyone wants "happiness", someone's toes are going to get stepped on inevitably. By contentedness, people go by the saying "live and let live" more.

Your reply:

I feel happy often and I feel lucky often, and not at anyone's expense, I don't really identify with your viewpoint here.

Unless there is complete equality of attraction and happiness/etc. in a relationship, the "feeling happy not at anyone's expense" is difficult. My original post purports that the less risks one takes, the less one likely is to form healthy relationships, but the less likely one is to hurt another as well. When forming relationships and pursuing something as delicate as love, one takes great risks, and someone inevitably gets hurt. You may have no intention of doing so, but someone does feel pain. Get it? No risks, no pain. Risks, pain.

 

 

Your example was of a couple breaking up, and you said one person's happiness was at the expense of another, and what you actually cited didn't prove your point, for me.

Do you get what my point is? Do you see what I am "proving" is actually a simple facet of a relationship, that, when you take vows at the beginning of a marriage, for instance, you say "for better or for worse"?

 

Lets take FWB.... what aspect of such a relationship are you tapping in to? Are you saying that parties in a FWB aren't looking out for their own best interests, aren't prioritising their own happiness?

I am hinting at competing (or not cohesive or unitary) interests. One person may have a relationship in mind, while the other is only doing it only to pass time in fun. When the revelation is out, will not one party be hurt...and, even before then, cannot one party be hurt by lack of communication, etc.

 

Is there something I am not explaining here? If you have been in a relationship before, is there not pain as well as pleasure, or perhaps there is never-ceasing pleasure?