Responsible for our own happiness...

[Mme. Chaucer]

I still don't understand.

 

If I were to have a wonderful christmas (just as an example) that included presents and brunch and time with family and friends, and the day was absolutely lovely and "perfect" then I found out that there was something else going on underneath that I had no knowledge of at the time, and didn't know about til years later and it did not impact ANYTHING about that day, why does that ruin that memory? I still had a wonderful christmas that was everything I wanted.

 

You've expressed how you feel, but I absolutely cannot relate.

 

My formerly happy memories from my last years with my ex husband are all tainted by the knowledge that for some time, he was lying to me. I have a hard time not HATING those memories.

 

Being on the receiving end of a con is not a happy memory-maker for the majority of people, I feel 100% qualified to say.

[Spark1111]

It wasn't a jab. I honestly have a hard time believing that two people who are married to one another, living in the same house, can really truly see things absolutely opposite. I tend to believe that if that does happen, that someone is not being honest with themselves about their relationship - and that is willful denial, not a passive thing that just happened to them.

 

I understand expecting honesty - I think we all want that and choose partners that we believe we can expect it from. But, to me, how can you not see a change in your partner? I mean - if a person is unhappy for YEARS - that's going to show up - it just is, and especially to someone "close" to them. I'm not saying that the BS did anything wrong if they truly did not see it and were NOT willfully denying the reality - I just don't see HOW they did not know that something was not working.

 

Not saying it doesn't happen - obviously it does - it's just really hard for me to understand.

 

it's hard for you to understand loving and trusting someone enough to tell you

The truth, and when they lie and say nothing, or job stress or the recent death of a parent, you think YOU would know they were having an affair?

 

REALLY?

 

You subscribe to that group of people who think they would know?

[Spark1111]

if you ( general) believe wholeheartedly that your MM wouldn't lie to you because he had no reason to, why would you think a BS has a crystal ball to inform her HE HAS REASON to lie to her because he is so unhappy?

 

When he has never spoken of any unhappiness to dialects his unhappiness to other events in his life?

 

Why would a BS, not knowing of the affair, suspect their spouse was sooooo unhappy with the marriage?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Anyway, I deeply believe that when grown up people get married, they are fully aware that the honeymoon isn't going to last forever. Some bumps in the road and even terribly rough times might be ahead. By marrying, aren't we agreeing that we're ready to deal with these things as best we're able when/ if they do come up?

 

Woe unto the married person who actually believes that their spouse is probably sleeping around because of some marital difficulties (even ones serious enough to divorce over) and makes decisions based upon this supposition! That sounds like a tremendously untrusting, insecure, and overall messed up person to me.

 

And shame on the married person who is having marital difficulties and self righteously says to themselves, "well, I'm unhappy and my happiness comes first! Therefore, I'm gonna cheer myself up and bone this willing person! Post haste!"

[underwater2010]

Thanks for at least trying. That could be why you find yourself in the position you are. Regardless if that is where you want to be or not. And I mean that sincerely. You are one of the OW that I respect, most of the time .

[Silly_Girl]

I understand the ignorance is bliss idea but it's only bliss if one is kept ignorant of it forever, and even still, just because one doesn't know something, does it mean it's ethical? I would say no. Telling someone something is beef when it's horse meat is unethical. Imagine a scenario where someone was deathly allergic to horse meat, you had no idea, but served it to them pretending it was beef! Once we start falsifying information, we make it such that things can get pretty dicey, both for us and other people.

 

I don't think she is really considering your opinion of what's ethical. She feels this way in respect of her own happiness. Which is how the thread was born.

 

However, if one was once ignorant then the truth comes to light, like the horse meat case or in the case of an affair, it does change things and does color the "happiness" one found at the time. Happy is not happy no matter what for me personally. I understand wanting to remain ignorant...but I think that is an after thought, like well the person has betrayed me, but spare me the pain of finding out. I would rather my spouse not have an affair, if he did and I didn't know and felt content, then so it is....but if I end up finding out then it will indeed make a difference. And if something will affect me greatly upon me finding out...then my policy is, it is best not to allow that person to be ignorant of it.

 

You're right in that the whole premise of her stance relies on utter secrecy.

 

It also relies on the affair not becoming complicated and not becoming a love affair - I assume that a love affair is way more likely to impact and therefore be brought to her attention than one not involving love - and we know that many affairs to grow in to something more substantial and emotions are involved...

[Silly_Girl]

And that makes sense to me. I get it - that if you KNEW your spouse was cheating, you would make a different decision. I get that completely.

 

I was just talking about some that seem to need someone else to make a decision before they can make their own - I know that's not you - and you just wanted honesty, and you deserved that. But I think some people simply go through life reacting - never making their OWN choices until they find out what someone else's choices are.

 

Yes.

 

And that used to be me. Sigh.

[Silly_Girl]

I want to make my own choices, not have them made for me.

 

She (in that scenario) is free to make any old choice she likes. That's the crux of the discussion.

 

I get where you're coming from, though.

[AnotherRound]

Yes.

 

And that used to be me. Sigh.

 

Eh - I think we have all been there at some point in our lives. I know it took me years and a lot of heartache to move past this and actually take the wheel of my own life. Sadly - some people never do and spend their lives waiting on other people to make choices so that they can react - on all sides of the affair triangle.

 

Nowadays - I make my decisions on what I know and feel and think - and if it doesn't coincide with someone else - oh well. I can't be responsible for anyone in this world but myself when it comes to decisions - I can't be held accountable for other people's choices when I have absolutely no say in them, ya know?

[Mme. Chaucer]

I was just talking about some that seem to need someone else to make a decision before they can make their own - I know that's not you - and you just wanted honesty, and you deserved that. But I think some people simply go through life reacting - never making their OWN choices until they find out what someone else's choices are.

 

This is a forum and a thread based upon infidelity, right? Not about people who are just generally reactive.

 

If we're talking about someone who is married to a cheater, how on earth are they supposed to make their own choice (about staying or leaving) UNLESS they are aware of what their spouse had chosen to do - to cheat?

 

That knowledge is necessary to make a decision in that situation! There are lots of circumstances involving people other than oneself where knowledge of their decision effects yours. Where you really need to know where the other person stands in order to make your own decision. Especially in relationships that are intended to span a lifetime!

 

How can this even be something to pick apart and argue about?

[Decorative]

I guess all you can attempt to do is put yourself in her shoes and think really hard about how you might feel. The husband who she thought loved and cherished her who is now forever gone was living a whole other secret life. He is no longer there to answer any of her questions about it, she can't say, on that wonderful Christmas we had were you really sneaking off to phone her? When you kissed me under the miseltoe were you thinking of her? Did you buy her the same gift as me? Were you wishing you got to spend the day with her instead? She will just never know now.

 

Maybe it is something you have to experience to understand.

 

True story.

 

When we first got married, money was tight.

 

We tried to make our Christmas presents thoughtful and not expensive.

 

I had a star named for him.

 

It was an amazing memory of a very precious time in our lives.

 

He had a star named for her. In the aftermath of the affair, I learned of it.

 

My previous, precious memory?

 

Forever changed.

[AnotherRound]

This is a forum and a thread based upon infidelity, right? Not about people who are just generally reactive.

 

If we're talking about someone who is married to a cheater, how on earth are they supposed to make their own choice (about staying or leaving) UNLESS they are aware of what their spouse had chosen to do - to cheat?

 

That knowledge is necessary to make a decision in that situation! There are lots of circumstances involving people other than oneself where knowledge of their decision effects yours. Where you really need to know where the other person stands in order to make your own decision. Especially in relationships that are intended to span a lifetime!

 

How can this even be something to pick apart and argue about?

 

Bc in the OP - the wife is aware. No knowledge is being withheld from her - and yet she chooses to stay. She has participated in 19 d-days - she is not being kept in the dark. So, she sounded to me like someone who is perhaps waiting on him to make a decision (or the OWs in this case) before she does anything about her own happiness.

[AnotherRound]

True story.

 

When we first got married, money was tight.

 

We tried to make our Christmas presents thoughtful and not expensive.

 

I had a star named for him.

 

It was an amazing memory of a very precious time in our lives.

 

He had a star named for her. In the aftermath of the affair, I learned of it.

 

My previous, precious memory?

 

Forever changed.

 

Yep - I get that. Ugh. My memories were all tainted - bc it all seemed like a lie after I found out about the affair. I totally get that - they seemed fake and insincere in light of the fact that he was, in fact, in love with someone else. I think at that point my self esteem just assumed that OUR memories were a lie and not his and hers - and ended up, that is exactly how it was... it hurt, no doubt. So, I just let the memories go - if they aren't real, I didn't want them anyway. Oh well (Of course, I'm 12 years past my divorce too - so, now it seems so far away that it doesn't hurt even a tad... )

[AnotherRound]

Seems everyone is waiting for everyone... except there are only two who have stayed together willingly.

 

Who? Seems to me the MM and the wife are the only two that stayed. WF is out of it and has been for some time (if I'm remembering correctly?).

 

So yeah - you're right - only two have stayed willingly - the MM and his BW.

[eleanorrigby]

Bc in the OP - the wife is aware. No knowledge is being withheld from her - and yet she chooses to stay. She has participated in 19 d-days - she is not being kept in the dark. So, she sounded to me like someone who is perhaps waiting on him to make a decision (or the OWs in this case) before she does anything about her own happiness.

 

That's the 19 d-days thread.

[AnotherRound]

That's the 19 d-days thread.

 

Lol - where am I???? AGh - I've lost the plot - I'm out on this one then -

[cocorico]

But happy is happy, no? If I had a fabulous dinner and later found out it was not beef, but horse, does the knowledge mean it did not taste as great at the time?

 

 

A couple of weeks back we were at family for a weekend. The hosts were carnivores, some of the guests were veg. The host was cooking, and following a recipe, and suddenly realised he'd put chicken stock in the veg soup. He rushed through to apologise to everyone that dinner would be late, explaining what he'd done and the need to start a fresh batch from scratch.

 

The veggies unanimously said, "you should just have served it up, not told us, we'd have eaten it and enjoyed it had we not known..." But of course, now they _did_ know, they couldn't face eating it. It's become a bit of a family joke, but it does illustrate the point. If you think you're happy, say the psychs, you are. Perception is reality.

[cocorico]

Mine actually actively hopes she would meet someone else, fall in love and be happy.

 

Yes, my H used to fervently wish this for his thenW too. He explicitly gave her permission to seek happiness elsewhere, and when she came back from holidays abroad with stories of younger men who had flirted with her he encouraged her to follow those up.

 

And it wasn't simply a case of him exorcising a guilty conscience - it predates his A.

[waterwoman]

I am responsible for my own happiness - although I prefer to look for contentment - but I am not responsible for the UNhappiness that came to me from outside.

[Bittersweetie]

What difference does it make that the spouse had an affair? Why do some people need to be aware of another person's choices to make their OWN decisions?

 

My example, more specifically:

 

My husband left a very good, well paying job to move across the country to be with me, his wife, that he thought he had an exclusive relationship with.

 

He told me after d-day that if he had known I was in an A, he would NOT have quit his job and moved.

 

With my secrecy and lies, I took away his ability to make a huge life choice based on reality and truth...because what he THOUGHT was his reality and truth was NOT. My actions interfered with his decisions. Does that make sense?

[Silly_Girl]

My example, more specifically:

 

My husband left a very good, well paying job to move across the country to be with me, his wife, that he thought he had an exclusive relationship with.

 

He told me after d-day that if he had known I was in an A, he would NOT have quit his job and moved.

 

With my secrecy and lies, I took away his ability to make a huge life choice based on reality and truth...because what he THOUGHT was his reality and truth was NOT. My actions interfered with his decisions. Does that make sense?

 

It does make sense, yes. Thank you

[Silly_Girl]

MAny OWs understand, mostly MOWs. OTOH, many single OWs do not comprehend what you just wrote.:eek:

 

Are you a single OW then, Pierre? Or did you do a formal survey?

 

[crederer]

I honestly feel sorry for some of these women that seem so duped into believing all of the things the MM is saying. "That is your situation, but mine is mine". This is so typical but no one seems to want to look at reality.

 

The only way you can be sure that the wife is okay with everything, and all of the other things that go with it, is if you heard it right from her mouth. If not, I am very sure that the MM is feeding you bull.

 

I've seen it so many times. The OW is always saying that it is different for them....until the truth comes out and it wasn't at all different. They're all very much the same.

[Mme. Chaucer]

j

 

SOMETHING has to be showing up by that point - something that tells BOTH partners that there is something not working, not right - not meshing. I am not a believer in the "Oh, we were perfectly happy and everything was wonderful and then all of a sudden I found out that he had been seeing another woman for 90 years on the side!!!".

 

Do you know that there is a great range of territory between "something is not working, not right, not meshing" and "perfectly happy and everything is wonderful"?

 

That is a frighteningly black and white view of any human relationship, including marriage.

 

Not even to mention that a person is responsible for their OWN ethics. Not just their "happiness." Which, as far as this thread goes, seems to be understood as "instant gratification." Not the same definition I use for it.

[Silly_Girl]

Um, I just reread the OP, and NOWHERE does it say this is about a specific situation. If it IS about THAT specific situation, then why is the WS whining about his "awful" wife and relying on OW to make HIM happy?

 

You will see later in the thread it was an error. AR posted pertaining to a different OP.