Hey, guys! Want to see a REAL woman???

[Els]

 

Was it?

 

Yes. The purpose of 'real' here was to explain that photos in magazines are touched up, and pose/lighting/etc can be altered (as you can see from the various photos in the blog).

 

That is the discussion I'm having with xxoo. She is trying to argue that the people in my salsa class are overall better looking than average, and she has absolutely no way to back up that claim.

 

If she were to go to my class and look at the people in it she would understand how foolish she sounds.

 

'Dance class' is generally touted as a good place to meet pretty girls. True/false?

[somedude81]

Yes. The purpose of 'real' here was to explain that photos in magazines are touched up, and pose/lighting/etc can be altered (as you can see from the various photos in the blog).

If you want to believe that was her only point, then fine, I'll leave it at that.

'Dance class' is generally touted as a good place to meet pretty girls. True/false?

So are coffee shops, bookstores, volunteering and dog parks.

[Els]

And I beleive that Walmart shoppers actually pulls from a narrower range of socio-economic groups and activity levels.

 

Who do you think actually does not go grocery shopping, other than the very high income group?

 

Frankly talking about average is meaningless because 3 or 4 obese people can throw everything off. Especially for a sample of only 20 people.

 

Yes, that is the point of an average.... 4/20 is 1/5. You can't dismiss them as outliers...

 

I retract my statement - the issue may not be with your dance class (though I am frankly surprised by the fact that 1/5 of the people in it are obese - most obese folks don't seem to enjoy dancing). When you are calculating this 'average' of yours, are you dismissing the obese women?

 

Interestingly, you also say that you find '90%' of them decent-looking. Is that 90% of the entire class or 90% of the class that does not include the obese women? Because the first would entail you finding 1-2 of the obese women attractive.

[somedude81]

Who do you think actually does not go grocery shopping, other than the very high income group?

I'm hardly high income (more like poverty) and I do not shop at Walmart. Walmart is considered to be the absolute bottom of retail stores. That is why I said it does not represent an actual sample.

 

Yes, that is the point of an average.... 4/20 is 1/5. You can't dismiss them as outliers...

 

I retract my statement - the issue may not be with your dance class (though I am frankly surprised by the fact that 1/5 of the people in it are obese - most obese folks don't seem to enjoy dancing).

I wish you were right. Dancing with obese girls is very awkward and actually limits what moves I can do. For one, I would never try to dip a girl that weighs more than I do.

 

When you are calculating this 'average' of yours, are you dismissing the obese women?

 

Interestingly, you also say that you find '90%' of them decent-looking. Is that 90% of the entire class or 90% of the class that does not include the obese women? Because the first would entail you finding 1-2 of the obese women attractive.

I wasn't going for any solid numbers or percentages. I don't have any idea how many girls are in my class. I think the instructor today said there are 46 people in the class and there seem to be about 3 more girls than guys. Assuming the personality is right, I would be happy to go on a date with all but three girls in the class (the really big ones). I have no idea what percentage that is. You're more than welcome to calculate it for me

 

BTW: The girl I like the most in the class has a bit of a gut, acne, and could really use braces. But I like her smile and she has a quirky, fun personality. Of course she has a nice rack too. It wouldn't be a somedude post if I didn't mention her boobs now would it

Edited May 1, 2013 by somedude81

[Anela]

I'm hardly high income (more like poverty) and I do not shop at Walmart. Walmart is considered to be the absolute bottom of retail stores. That is why I said it does not represent an actual sample.

 

Oh, nice. That's mostly where we shop - and get things like coconut water from Giant Eagle, along with the rare trip to a health food store. We STILL have trouble buying what we need, and hardly ever get to do anything fun.

 

Er, to make this on-topic: I have a nice rack, as you put it. I had a "nice little figure" for years, but worried about the little bit of cellulite, a few stretch marks (that have been there since my teen years), and my face not being that pretty. I was convinced that I was ugly. I wish I'd had better experiences with men.

[somedude81]

Oh, nice. That's mostly where we shop - and get things like coconut water from Giant Eagle, along with the rare trip to a health food store. We STILL have trouble buying what we need, and hardly ever get to do anything fun.

LOL, somebody was bound to be offended. All my posts should come with a disclaimer.

 

Er, to make this on-topic: I have a nice rack, as you put it. I had a "nice little figure" for years, but worried about the little bit of cellulite, a few stretch marks (that have been there since my teen years), and my face not being that pretty. I was convinced that I was ugly. I wish I'd had better experiences with men.

From what I've read of your posts your troubles with men is not your appearance but how you come across. Are you very reserved, shy/quiet?

 

From a mans point of view, it's very easy to interpret shy/quiet as not interested. If a girl doesn't seem to enjoy my company, then I'm not going to talk to her.

[Mr Scorpio]

I didnt say anyone stated that. But Ive grown up being surrounded by men, I have alot of male friends and I work in a male dominated field. Men generally show this attitude with their behavior (and several guys who have responded to this forum show this attitude on this site).

 

Fair enough. Nevertheless, please reconsider making a generalization that all men behave this way. We don't.

[pbjbear]

I like the message this woman is trying to portray. A women with confidence is hot. I am amused by all the men that immediately started picking apart all her physical flaws however, missing the entire point of the thread. I enjoyed xxoo and USHokie's responses. I also generally find men to be very critical and hypocritical in judging a woman's looks. There is pressure on men but far more on women. There are a few decent ones kimberlydoll, you'll just have to weed through many bad ones. I do think our generation of men is worse though in terms of refusing to settle for a woman in their league. Why wasnt I born in the 50's?

[Mr Scorpio]

I do think our generation of men is worse though in terms of refusing to settle for a woman in their league. Why wasnt I born in the 50's?

 

"Leagues" aside, no one should ever choose a life-partner on the basis of "settling". I don't doubt that it happens. That is sad.

[USMCHokie]

As for why this thread was made, I highly doubt it was Carrie's intention to get male critiques of the author's body.

 

Well, the words she chose certainly suggest that the thread was directed at men with the body of the blog's author as the primary subject...

[USMCHokie]

There is pressure on men but far more on women.

 

The pressure on men comes in a different way based on what women find desirable and valuable in a man, and it has much less to do with looks...

[Mr Scorpio]

Well, the words she chose certainly suggest that the thread was directed at men with the body of the blog's author as the primary subject...

 

True. However I believe her focus on the subject was the potential disparity in appearance between a women when "dolled up" verus not. A demonstration that none of what we see in the media is "real".

[Mr Scorpio]

There is pressure on men but far more on women.

 

I think this constitutes a separate thread, although I wouldn't be suprised if one already exists. I'm interested to hear women's take on this. Not whether or not there is more pressure on them, but where that pressure comes from, how it has manifested itself in their lives, how they react/deal/adapt to it.

[USMCHokie]

True. However I believe her focus on the subject was the potential disparity in appearance between a women when "dolled up" verus not. A demonstration that none of what we see in the media is "real".

 

No, I understand the intent of the thread on its surface, but there is certainly an underlying theme that the "ideal" as promulgated by "fake" media images should not be valued or expected by men.

[Mr Scorpio]

No, I understand the intent of the thread on its surface, but there is certainly an underlying theme that the "ideal" as promulgated by "fake" media images should not be valued or expected by men.

 

Interesting. My take was an exageration of the effect of the "ideal" on men. I assume that the overall sense of men's attitudes on LS is based on many older threads. As such, I can't speak to the attitude exhibited by the majority of men.

 

As for valuing that ideal? I suppose one could argue that photoshop is the apex of the Greek vision of beauty. To the extent that the ideal motivates a person to adopt a healthy-lifestyle and master their own body, it is good. To the extent that the ideal motivates a person to adopt a deadly-lifestyle and become a slave to their own body, it is bad.

 

It seems to me that allowing the media to effect your expectations is almost never a good thing. I don't expect to have the cars that appear on my tv screen. I don't expect to have the lavish vacations that appear on my tv screen. I certainly don't expect to "have" the women on my tv screen.

[xxoo]

And I beleive that Walmart shoppers actually pulls from a narrower range of socio-economic groups and activity levels.

I have no clue what the average weight is. There are girls in the class that probably range from around 100 to 200+ lbs. Frankly talking about average is meaningless because 3 or 4 obese people can throw everything off. Especially for a sample of only 20 people.

 

It's really not that hard to figure out an average. Plug in some numbers, assuming 20 women in the 100-150 range, and 3 women in the 150-250 range. See if you get 155 as an average.

 

I strongly suspect your class has fewer women in the 150-250 range than the average group of women. It would probably be more like 30-40% of women in that range for a truly average group, not 15%. And it makes a lot of sense, because, just like you feel weird about dipping a woman who weighs more than you, the bigger women may be far less likely to sign up because they don't want to be in that position--touched by men then don't know, next to smaller women, being dipped by men smaller than them, etc. A few sign up, but most won't. So you look around and conclude "the average woman is on the thinner side" when that is not actually the case.

[Els]

I'm hardly high income (more like poverty) and I do not shop at Walmart. Walmart is considered to be the absolute bottom of retail stores. That is why I said it does not represent an actual sample.

 

Interesting. I admit I took xxoo's comment of Walmart to mean just any ol' large grocery chain, since most people I know go to one of those for groceries. Not Walmart necessarily (we don't have that here), but most folks don't go to specialty shops for standard grocery items.

 

I wasn't going for any solid numbers or percentages. I don't have any idea how many girls are in my class. I think the instructor today said there are 46 people in the class and there seem to be about 3 more girls than guys. Assuming the personality is right, I would be happy to go on a date with all but three girls in the class (the really big ones). I have no idea what percentage that is. You're more than welcome to calculate it for me

 

Really, though, if you have no idea, why are you using that rather nebulous statement to disprove actual statistics quoted?

 

BTW: The girl I like the most in the class has a bit of a gut, acne, and could really use braces. But I like her smile and she has a quirky, fun personality. Of course she has a nice rack too. It wouldn't be a somedude post if I didn't mention her boobs now would it

 

Cute. I definitely don't think that you are solely attracted to supermodels, if that's what you were thinking my point was.

 

No, I understand the intent of the thread on its surface, but there is certainly an underlying theme that the "ideal" as promulgated by "fake" media images should not be valued or expected by men.

 

Correct. Media images are 'fake', because corporations do not hire professional photographers, makeup artists, and photoshop artists to sit around on their tushies getting paid to allow models go on the centrefolds with personal makeup, amateur posing and lighting, and no touching up.

 

You are welcome to disprove that if you prefer; it would at least be on topic. I do not see how criticizing the blogger's body is.

[Els]

 

It seems to me that allowing the media to effect your expectations is almost never a good thing. I don't expect to have the cars that appear on my tv screen. I don't expect to have the lavish vacations that appear on my tv screen. I certainly don't expect to "have" the women on my tv screen.

 

This reminds me of an interesting nugget in old LS threads that I'd never been able to figure out - why a few of the male posters seem to have a grudge against SATC to the degree that I'd never imagined anyone could possibly have against a fictional TV series (which wasn't even all that well made).

 

Could it be that some people actually think it's normal and acceptable for people to interpret 'reality' and 'normality' as what appears on their TV screens; because they do it with media images of women, they expect women to do the same with media-propagated ideals of men and lifestyles?

 

That would explain a lot...

[Emilia]

This reminds me of an interesting nugget in old LS threads that I'd never been able to figure out - why a few of the male posters seem to have a grudge against SATC to the degree that I'd never imagined anyone could possibly have against a fictional TV series (which wasn't even all that well made).

 

Could it be that some people actually think it's normal and acceptable for people to interpret 'reality' and 'normality' as what appears on their TV screens; because they do it with media images of women, they expect women to do the same with media-propagated ideals of men and lifestyles?

 

That would explain a lot...

 

It was a very influential show and it's hated widely in the UK too for that reason. I don't know about the countries you've lived in but here lots of girls tried to emulate those characters. I know this because I had to listen to it when I was younger (when the series was running) and it was f**king tedious. I wouldn't have dated the men in that show either, you can count me amongst the haters.

 

We didn't have the expression 'f**kbuddy' in this country before SATC either, I'd say in certain countries it was culturally very influential. I don't think men would have hated it if they hadn't seen the influence - so I guess you can blame young women for that.

[Els]

It was a very influential show and it's hated widely in the UK too for that reason. I don't know about the countries you've lived in but here lots of girls tried to emulate those characters. I know this because I had to listen to it when I was younger (when the series was running) and it was f**king tedious. I wouldn't have dated the men in that show either, you can count me amongst the haters.

 

We didn't have the expression 'f**kbuddy' in this country before SATC either, I'd say in certain countries it was culturally very influential. I don't think men would have hated it if they hadn't seen the influence - so I guess you can blame young women for that.

 

Do you feel that is similar to the reason certain female posters here have a... ah... very very strong vendetta against porn and the media?

 

Do you feel either reaction is reasonable?

[xxoo]

Interesting. I admit I took xxoo's comment of Walmart to mean just any ol' large grocery chain, since most people I know go to one of those for groceries. Not Walmart necessarily (we don't have that here), but most folks don't go to specialty shops for standard grocery items.

 

I meant Walmart specifically. It really does draw from a more representative sample of the economic spectrum: a lot of people on the lower end, fewer from the comfy middle, and even fewer from the top. That's society. That's what I don't see when I go to a Uni class, or a paid dance class, or a run of the mill grocery store in my comfy middle class suburb.

[Emilia]

Do you feel that is similar to the reason certain female posters here have a... ah... very very strong vendetta against porn and the media?

 

Do you feel either reaction is reasonable?

 

I feel reaction towards certain cultural influences is very reasonable. I think people are allowed to have strong negative feelings. I merely explained why men have it towards the inane c**p that SATC is/was. American style of dating in general makes me

 

I'm not particularly fond of porn myself though vendetta would be a strong word. You don't see me commenting on porn threads usually, this is how far that expression goes.

 

I think you will always get people who allow isolated annoyances develop into fully blown gender hatred. Hating women for enjoying SATC or hating men for enjoying porn is just to channel the existing hatred.

[EasyHeart]

It was a very influential show and it's hated widely in the UK too for that reason. I don't know about the countries you've lived in but here lots of girls tried to emulate those characters. I know this because I had to listen to it when I was younger (when the series was running) and it was f**king tedious. I wouldn't have dated the men in that show either, you can count me amongst the haters.

 

We didn't have the expression 'f**kbuddy' in this country before SATC either, I'd say in certain countries it was culturally very influential. I don't think men would have hated it if they hadn't seen the influence - so I guess you can blame young women for that.

I think this is right.

 

You can also count me amongst the 'haters', but I've nothing against a TV show. The problems with SATC is that is was highly influential to a generation of young girls who grew up believing that it reflected reality, and they carried that perception with them when they entered the dating world. The result was men encountering a large number of women who were dates from Hell. For a while, it was the norm rather than the exception.

[Els]

I think this is right.

 

You can also count me amongst the 'haters', but I've nothing against a TV show. The problems with SATC is that is was highly influential to a generation of young girls who grew up believing that it reflected reality, and they carried that perception with them when they entered the dating world. The result was men encountering a large number of women who were dates from Hell. For a while, it was the norm rather than the exception.

 

Don't you feel that the media-altered images of women has similar effects on some men, albeit in different ways?

[pbjbear]

I think men should be expected to

-have six pack abs and good muscle at all points during their life. How they look when they are in their early 20's should be expected as they become older. I dont want to hear about their work schedules and their kids- they are just lazy otherwise.

-I think they should be expected to get hair plugs when their hair starts to fall out

-that they should all go on Viagra as they get older

-I wish the current media would get rid of the ugly but funny/nice guys and instead have very hunky guys everywhere with the ugly guys being ostracized

-I wish when they become uglier, their wives show less interest and respectful behavior towards them and then just respond "oh well, Im just being a girl its evolution"

 

This is really the only to get through the feeble brains of men on what it is like to be a woman.