The Fog - APs take on it?

[AnotherRound]

It's come up a lot lately - and I know we have talked it to death - but I am interested in your interpretation of this? I am including the text from a Marriage Advocate's link so that we are all using the exact same definition. I am sure this is not the ONLY def, but it is the one that most closely relates to how I've heard the term used - and I want us all discussing the same definition, not adding our own ideas of what the term means when WE use it. *As an aside, I did find it interesting that the article stated that "Experts and BS's" are the only ones who really use the term - ?????

 

Let's discuss

 

Coping With Infidelity: Understanding The “Wayward Fog”

 

Posted on July 10, 2012 by Lil

Are you faced with infidelity in your marriage? Has your Wayward Spouse begun describing a marriage unfamiliar to you and a history of which you don’t believe you were a part? Have you been told that the infidelity is your fault or that your spouse never loved you in the first place? Perhaps you’ve heard, “I love you, but I’m not in love with you.”

These are typical symptoms of a biochemical rush commonly known as “The Wayward Fog” or “The Affair Fog”. How do you know if it is occurring in your marriage…and what can you do about it?

Infidelity And The Wayward Fog

 

The Wayward Fog and The Affair Fog are terms often used by experts and victims of infidelity to describe the euphoria felt by someone involved in an affair. The Fog, while strangely named, is a real phenomenon. On websites supporting infidelity, it is sometimes referred to as the “affair bubble.”

The Fog Rolls In

 

The Wayward Fog is described as similar to being brainwashed. The thrill of the affair envelops the wayward partner in good feelings and the excitement can be overwhelming. S/he feels a new high, a feeling of being “in love.” Comparisons are made between the marriage and the affair and, inevitably, the marriage suffers.

They Justify The Infidelity

 

Next begins a repeated internal dialogue of rationalizations, over and over again in their minds. The Wayward Spouse needs to rationalize with themselves in order to cover up and minimise their feelings of guilt. They may convince themselves that their marriage was already bad and that it had been for a long time, that their spouse doesn’t really love them, and that the affair partner must truly be their “soul-mate” because he/she is the only one who understands them. They may tell themselves, and the Betrayed Spouse, that the Betrayed Spouse is “better off without them.” Frequently this rationalization leads to inventing reasons for having the affair in the first place, including that the affair is like “therapy,” something they do for themselves. They say it makes them a better, happier spouse — “If I am happier, then how could that be bad for my marriage/family/spouse?”

Loss of Empathy

 

After a short time, they cease to think of anyone else’s feelings — not parents, not spouses, not children, not friends — only their feelings and the feelings of their Affair Partner. To a foggy Wayward, the Other Person is without flaws, weaknesses or selfishness. Soon the cheating spouse begins to believe the lies they’ve been telling themselves. They, therefore, act accordingly, treating their spouse with anger and hostility, and their affair partner in a loving and affectionate way. Despite all of this, the Wayward might not want out of the marriage. They enjoy the familial comfort of home, with the added excitement of the affair. It is as if they become addicted to the affair, needing the constant high it brings, no matter the total disregard for the Betrayed.

Thus beings a cycle of wash, rinse, and repeat and soon they are deeply entrenched in the fog.

Typical Fog, also called The Wayward Script, includes:

* Re-writing marriage history

* Projecting blame for the Wayward Spouse’s guilt onto the Betrayed Spouse

* The typical “I love you but…”

* The proclamation that the other person is the Wayward Spouse’s “soul mate”

* The demonizing of the Betrayed Spouse in order to rationalize the Wayward Spouse’s infidelity.

*

Gaslighting

An Addictive Fantasy

 

Of course, The Fog is nothing more than a fantasy created by the affair partners. They are under the influence of an addictive drug similar to that of a teenager in love. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to remove them from this Fog. The dopamine that is released in the brain is the same chemical that is released when someone uses cocaine or opium. It clouds judgement and makes people do and say things they would never do or say otherwise. This does not excuse the Wayward Spouse for their behaviour, it just partially explains what is occurring within their thought process.

The Fog Is NOT An Excuse

 

I cannot stress enough — The Fog does not provide an excuse for the actions of the Wayward Spouse. However, it certainly does explain where some of the behaviour comes from and how it can manifest. If you read any of the works of Dr. Helen Fisher, you will gain a clearer understanding of the dynamics of the human mating system and how dopamine, oxytocin, and vasopressin can affect a person’s judgement and personality.

Confusion and Uncertainty

 

For the Betrayed, The Fog makes for a very confusing and trying time. Not only has the person you thought you could always count on stabbed you in the back, but they are now acting totally out of character. They have probably rewritten your relationship history and are professing their love to someone else. If you can have a rational, calm discussion with your Wayward Partner, sometimes you can point out the inaccuracies and inconsistencies in their story. More than likely, however, if they are deep in the Fog, this conversation will be unproductive. Listen to the Wayward Spouse’s complaints and ask yourself, “Is there a kernel of truth in that?” While the Fog presents a warped perspective, often these complaints contain genuine grievances that were problems prior to the affair, and need to be addressed.

The Freedom of Understanding

 

Gaining a better understanding of what your Wayward Partner is thinking is beneficial to the Betrayed in that s/he can understand that the infidelity is NOT about them. Now is the time for the Betrayed to begin to take care of him/herself to further his/her own growth and healing.

Affairs are fantasy and even the blindest Wayward Spouse eventually realizes and acknowledges that fantasy isn’t reality. But this reality most always happens after the affair has ended.

The lies a person will tell themselves can take many forms. They are not always about leaving the marriage or demonizing the Betrayed Spouse…but they are always bad for the marriage.

If you have to rationalize it — it’s wrong.

The right choice is evident and does not require explanation.

Sources:

marriageadvocates.com

talkaboutmarriage.com

survivinginfidelity.com

emotionalaffair.org

affairsurvival.com

 

This entry was posted in Coping with Infidelity, Featured Articles, Guides, Infidelity and tagged Affair, betrayal, cheating, deception, dishonesty, Gaslighting, infidelity, manipulation. Bookmark the permalink.

[Owl]

Are you soliciting anyone's opinions/views, or only those of affair partners?

[AnotherRound]

And - I can't even get past the first parts! lol Okay - so, there was NEVER a time that either exMM or I thought that the other had "no faults". Who does that? Do people really get so wrapped up in the honeymoon stage that they are truly convinced that the other person is super human or something and without fault?

 

See - that's where I get hung up on the whole thing. I just don't do that - I didn't even do that when I was a teenager! I mean - most people (at least I like to think so anyway) know better than that - right? Right????

[AnotherRound]

Are you soliciting anyone's opinions/views, or only those of affair partners?

 

Well, anyone can post obviously - I was interested in the APs views of it bc we've heard a lot of the BSs views on it. If you can respond using the definition from the article, that would be really helpful - in that everyone isn't kind of ad-libbing their own caveats into their interpretation of what it is.

[AnotherRound]

Also - would LOVE for someone to come up with some real research (empirically evidenced or studied) about the "biochemical" reality of "the fog". I haven't been able to find a thing in peer reviewed journals that backs up that this is an actual physical phenomena.

[Owl]

And - I can't even get past the first parts! lol Okay - so, there was NEVER a time that either exMM or I thought that the other had "no faults". Who does that? Do people really get so wrapped up in the honeymoon stage that they are truly convinced that the other person is super human or something and without fault?

 

See - that's where I get hung up on the whole thing. I just don't do that - I didn't even do that when I was a teenager! I mean - most people (at least I like to think so anyway) know better than that - right? Right????

 

Well, let me describe my wife's EA, EA partner, and the concerns I had.

 

My wife had an online EA with a man she'd never met. Convinced she was in love with him, in fact.

 

On D-day, was all set to go live with him...although they hadn't met in real life.

 

My wife is very allergic to cigarette smoke...to the point where it triggers horrendous asthma attacks that can be very difficult to control. She also has a very strong sense of smell, with an extremely strong aversion to certain odors that will literally make her vomit.

 

OM was a multiple pack a day smoker. Smoked in his apartment for YEARS, meaning that smoke was embedded in his clothes, curtains, bedding, etc... Yet she was convinced that this wouldn't be an issue...when she nearly passed out from an asthma attack from hugging her sister who had cigarette smoke on her clothing.

 

OM drank heavily, daily. My wife would vomit at the smell of strong alcohol on someone's breath...and yet completely disregarded any concern about what might happen when he tried to kiss her.

 

My wife is a very, very intelligent woman. Knew and understood the risks of meeting up with anyone on the internet...and yet in the course and thoes of her EA, was convinced that there was totally no risk "in this situation". And yet, she bareley knew anything of this man's history, and had in fact only one picture of him.

 

Yes...this was completely and totally out of character for her. It WAS like she'd been replaced with someone else entirely, someone with no common sense and no intelligence, completely unlike my "normal" wife.

 

So there's an example for you.

[Owl]

Also - would LOVE for someone to come up with some real research (empirically evidenced or studied) about the "biochemical" reality of "the fog". I haven't been able to find a thing in peer reviewed journals that backs up that this is an actual physical phenomena.

 

Try looking up brain chemistry during limerance/in love.

 

Same thing.

 

"Fog" doesn't JUST happen during affairs, although I believe it's greatly exacerbated in affair relationships.

[AnotherRound]

Well, let me describe my wife's EA, EA partner, and the concerns I had.

 

My wife had an online EA with a man she'd never met. Convinced she was in love with him, in fact.

 

On D-day, was all set to go live with him...although they hadn't met in real life.

 

My wife is very allergic to cigarette smoke...to the point where it triggers horrendous asthma attacks that can be very difficult to control. She also has a very strong sense of smell, with an extremely strong aversion to certain odors that will literally make her vomit.

 

OM was a multiple pack a day smoker. Smoked in his apartment for YEARS, meaning that smoke was embedded in his clothes, curtains, bedding, etc... Yet she was convinced that this wouldn't be an issue...when she nearly passed out from an asthma attack from hugging her sister who had cigarette smoke on her clothing.

 

OM drank heavily, daily. My wife would vomit at the smell of strong alcohol on someone's breath...and yet completely disregarded any concern about what might happen when he tried to kiss her.

 

My wife is a very, very intelligent woman. Knew and understood the risks of meeting up with anyone on the internet...and yet in the course and thoes of her EA, was convinced that there was totally no risk "in this situation". And yet, she bareley knew anything of this man's history, and had in fact only one picture of him.

 

Yes...this was completely and totally out of character for her. It WAS like she'd been replaced with someone else entirely, someone with no common sense and no intelligence, completely unlike my "normal" wife.

 

So there's an example for you.

 

Okay - I see what you are saying, but here's where I disagree. Calling it a "fog" as if it's something that HAPPENS to someone - seems, to me, dishonest and delusional. The person CHOSE to romanticize their partner. They chose to ignore things that were obvious. They weren't "high" on endorphins and sleepwalking.

 

Your wife set aside things she knew bc she chose to - she actively chose to ignore those things and carry on. She wasn't abducted, she was 100% present and lucid and making choices.

 

It seems like a cop out to me - to come back later and say, "Oh, I was in a fog!". Of course in hindsight, when the consequences hit the fan - some people (of weak character, imo) want to claim that they weren't at the helm - and therefore, cannot be held responsible for what they did. That is not realistic.

 

I understand WHY people want to believe in it and use it - it lessens the hurt of the BS (oh, he/she wasn't making those choices, an alien was!) and it lessens the consequences (they hope?) of the WS - if they can convince someone that they weren't making those choices, that they weren't choosing to do what they did in their "right mind" - then their consequences should be less, right?

 

It's like the temporary insanity plea - and I don't buy it any more than I buy that. Which, coincidentally, does not hold up in courts 99.9% of the time - bc it's rubbish. If you pre-planned at all - then you were actively choosing it - you were not being dragged along by some euphoric high in your brain. Some of these affairs take place for YEARS - with a lot of planning and participating - to look back and try to say , "it wasn't me!" - is ridiculous. Of course it was YOU! lol You were planning things, participating, for YEARS - You can't be temporarily insane for years - sorry, you just can't.

 

Doing something once, for five minutes out of character? Sure - temporary insanity. Anything else? Active choice - and adults trying to pretend that they weren't responsible - what? It's no different than trying to take something back after the fact - after the cookie crumbled and you didn't like the way it crumbled - silliness.

 

My exMM never claimed to be in a "fog". He looked back and wondered why he made the decisions he did after seeing it all play out - but he OWNS it. He knows he made those decisions, free and clear - and doesn't try to act like he didn't do them or wasn't there when they happened.

[AnotherRound]

Try looking up brain chemistry during limerance/in love.

 

Same thing.

 

"Fog" doesn't JUST happen during affairs, although I believe it's greatly exacerbated in affair relationships.

 

I know all about brain chemistry during love - but that doesn't change a thing. Once you are past the age of like 13, if you haven't realized these effects and don't have a good handle on them - you are choosing not to see reality. Everyone experiences these chemical rushes when in love - not everyone allows it to make them believe that someone else is faultless or perfect.

 

Sorry, it's an excuse - and not a medical term that I can find anywhere other than on Infidelity support guides. I get it - it makes it easier for the BS and the WS to move on - but I'm not buying it. And, had my exH tried to use this on me when he had an affair??? I would have laughed in his face... honestly....

[Owl]

Okay - I see what you are saying, but here's where I disagree. Calling it a "fog" as if it's something that HAPPENS to someone - seems, to me, dishonest and delusional. The person CHOSE to romanticize their partner. They chose to ignore things that were obvious. They weren't "high" on endorphins and sleepwalking.

 

Your wife set aside things she knew bc she chose to - she actively chose to ignore those things and carry on. She wasn't abducted, she was 100% present and lucid and making choices.

 

It seems like a cop out to me - to come back later and say, "Oh, I was in a fog!". Of course in hindsight, when the consequences hit the fan - some people (of weak character, imo) want to claim that they weren't at the helm - and therefore, cannot be held responsible for what they did. That is not realistic.

 

I understand WHY people want to believe in it and use it - it lessens the hurt of the BS (oh, he/she wasn't making those choices, an alien was!) and it lessens the consequences (they hope?) of the WS - if they can convince someone that they weren't making those choices, that they weren't choosing to do what they did in their "right mind" - then their consequences should be less, right?

 

It's like the temporary insanity plea - and I don't buy it any more than I buy that. Which, coincidentally, does not hold up in courts 99.9% of the time - bc it's rubbish. If you pre-planned at all - then you were actively choosing it - you were not being dragged along by some euphoric high in your brain. Some of these affairs take place for YEARS - with a lot of planning and participating - to look back and try to say , "it wasn't me!" - is ridiculous. Of course it was YOU! lol You were planning things, participating, for YEARS - You can't be temporarily insane for years - sorry, you just can't.

 

Doing something once, for five minutes out of character? Sure - temporary insanity. Anything else? Active choice - and adults trying to pretend that they weren't responsible - what? It's no different than trying to take something back after the fact - after the cookie crumbled and you didn't like the way it crumbled - silliness.

 

My exMM never claimed to be in a "fog". He looked back and wondered why he made the decisions he did after seeing it all play out - but he OWNS it. He knows he made those decisions, free and clear - and doesn't try to act like he didn't do them or wasn't there when they happened.

 

OK...so you're completely disregarding the fact that my wife...for years prior to this...and for years since this...acted completely differently DURING her affair.

 

Acted irrationally, disregarding critically important things that would have impacted her health and well-being, potentially taking dangerous risks with her health and safety by being ready to fly away to live with a man she'd never met.

 

When for years before and since, she's always been an intelligent, rational thinker.

 

OK...so what WOULD you have to see to demonstrate the point of this???

 

Something that someone could provide here...not a request for peer-reviewed scientific research that clearly none of us are capable of conducting???

[jlola]

Here's my thoughts. (I posted this in the other fog thread as well but I've adjusted it a bit)

 

I think that "the fog" is sometimes simply an excuse used by others so that people don't own their actions.

 

The BS use it to excuse their WS. The OW/OM use it to excuse themselves or their MM/MW, and the WS uses it as an excuse for everything. Whether consciously or not, it's being used as an excuse.

 

Either way, all relationships have a honeymoon phase. I don't know many people who are in long term relationships that feel that they experienced a "fog" long term. And I don't think that honeymoon phase is a fog, it just is the start of a relationship. I will say that in affairs it does seem as if it might last longer, because the interactions can be less frequent,etc. There is of course a hormonal aspect...it's what entices people to stick around long enough to fall in love and commit to someone.

 

If after the affair is over you feel like you were in a fog and can't believe what the relationship was, or you see the person as someone completely different, I would say someone misrepresented themselves to you and you were lead to believe that's who they were, only to discover otherwise.

 

Otherwise, if we go with the theory that the fog is because you didn't see that the MM/MW/AP were someone different than who they were projecting, all BS's were in a fog for the entire PB (pre-betrayl) part of their marriages and I highly doubt that's the case.

 

 

I don't quite understand the fog either. But a friend of mine who does absolutely no reading and would never even read anything psychological was in an affair for a couple of years with a woman he had been involved with years ealier.

 

Though he liked her enough years before, when she pushed for marriage he said no, because he did not believe she was the one.

 

Anyway years later, she is married and has 2 young kids,he is in a serious relationship. She calls him one day and they slowly begin an affair. He says he then fell madly in love with her and they planned their future.

 

But eventually, she was dragging her feet and he ended it. He says he can see clearly who she is now. Bu in the affair, he made all sorts of excuses for her behavior. He used the word "temporarily insane" as he sees now what a disaster it would have been if she left her husband. But his exact words" I see clearly now".

 

I asked him why he let her go the first time and did not feel that "crazy love". But the second time she came around married and with kids,he decided she was his soulmate. He said it was an interesting question he would have to ponder. But we never discussed it after that.

 

He recently found out she is having another affair and this new guy wants to leave his spouse for her. I am beginning to wonder of some people are just attracted to obstacles and competition.

[Owl]

I know all about brain chemistry during love - but that doesn't change a thing. Once you are past the age of like 13, if you haven't realized these effects and don't have a good handle on them - you are choosing not to see reality. Everyone experiences these chemical rushes when in love - not everyone allows it to make them believe that someone else is faultless or perfect.

 

Sorry, it's an excuse - and not a medical term that I can find anywhere other than on Infidelity support guides. I get it - it makes it easier for the BS and the WS to move on - but I'm not buying it. And, had my exH tried to use this on me when he had an affair??? I would have laughed in his face... honestly....

 

EXACTLY!!!

 

THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS IS THAT THEY'VE DISENGAGED FROM REALITY!!!

 

Make that mental leap, and you might begin to track here.

[Owl]

I read Owl's post, didn't see anything in it, about him claiming that "the fog" was used as an excuse by him or his wife.

 

Owl, you should have known better.

 

Precisely correct. It didn't EXCUSE her behavior. It helped outline how different it was from her normal behavior.

 

There are no excuses for engaging in an affair. There were no excuses for what she did.

 

Instead, we faced what happened head on, worked through it all, and chose (together) to reconcile.

 

Her behavior has never been excused...it simply was eventually forgiven as part of our choice to reconcile.

[Poppy fields]

I fully own all choices and decisions I have made in my life. I even have a mental diagnosis which I could use to ''excuse" some periods of my behavior. I refuse to do so because I am not insane, and I have choices just like everyone else does.

 

Do I think I am better than someone who might think they were in a fog during their affair? No. I just chose to live my truth because I spent many years running away from it.

[AnotherRound]

OK...so you're completely disregarding the fact that my wife...for years prior to this...and for years since this...acted completely differently DURING her affair.

 

Acted irrationally, disregarding critically important things that would have impacted her health and well-being, potentially taking dangerous risks with her health and safety by being ready to fly away to live with a man she'd never met.

 

When for years before and since, she's always been an intelligent, rational thinker.

 

OK...so what WOULD you have to see to demonstrate the point of this???

 

Something that someone could provide here...not a request for peer-reviewed scientific research that clearly none of us are capable of conducting???

 

Well - I'm not saying she acted "out of character" - but that is an active choice. She was not a passive player - no matter how much she wants to believe this or how much she regrets her decisions. She made decisions - she was not a child, she was fully developed, and she absolutely knew what she was doing - she just didn't like the consequences when it all came crashing down around her. So - she tried to back-track.

 

You both seem to be relieved (?) by using the term to explain away WHY she did what she did. But, she simply chose to do what she did. That's it. A euphoric high of chemicals in the brain doesn't last for YEARS - it's a brief thing. And I guess you could try to say she was an addict to that endorphin high (runner's high, etc.) and she just had to get more - but if that is the case, why didn't she have this reaction EVERY time she was in a relationship? Did she have it with you? Was she unable to control herself in the beginning of your relationship (and throughout?) bc she was so hopped up on endorphins that she couldn't see straight? And, how long does it last?

 

Without a study of actual brain chemistry/reaction - I would be hard pressed to believe it. People can say all kinds of things about why they did what they did and why they weren't responsible - spend a day in a court room, you'll hear a lot of "it wasn't my fault bc xyz" with xyz usually being some reason that the person wasn't in control - they were hapless bystanders, pushed into circumstances by the universe that they had NO control over.

 

Your wife didn't trip and fall onto someone else repeatedly, against her will - sorry. She actively made a choice, again and again, to disregard things she knew (that she was allergic to cig smoke, for instance) so that she could actively participate in an affair with another man. She can come back now and say, "well, I never did it before that or again, so see, aliens!" - and you can believe that - but my belief? She saw the consequences of her actions and scrambled to do damage control to save herself from having to experience those consequences to their full extent - she went into survival mode - and as soon as this was offered up and she saw that you accepted it - she ran with it. Why wouldn't she? It obviously made you feel better - and it made her feel better (I couldn't control it! I was high!) and allowed you both to excuse her choices to some extent - enough of an extend that her consequences were lessened.

[Owl]

Ok, see I"m more likely to get on board with this explanation.

I admit that there ARE people who are really suceptible to being influenced by others when they are "in love" you see it all the time with teenagers in love. They ALL act like that.

But I don't know that it's purely or even an increased thing in affairs, I think we just call it out because the affair is "wrong" and so we wouldn't necessarily call it into discussion for other relationships.

Just some thoughts.

 

I can see some merit in what you're saying here in bold. It could well be that people are more FOCUSED on it's occurrence during an affair than any other time.

 

Any other time, it's simply part of "falling in love". In an affair, it becomes part of the "why did he/she act the way they did"...there's a lot more analysis that occurs there by other parties than when it just happens as part of a 'normal' (as in, not impacting anyone else) relationship.

[Owl]

Well - I'm not saying she acted "out of character" - but that is an active choice. She was not a passive player - no matter how much she wants to believe this or how much she regrets her decisions. She made decisions - she was not a child, she was fully developed, and she absolutely knew what she was doing - she just didn't like the consequences when it all came crashing down around her. So - she tried to back-track.

 

You both seem to be relieved (?) by using the term to explain away WHY she did what she did. But, she simply chose to do what she did. That's it. A euphoric high of chemicals in the brain doesn't last for YEARS - it's a brief thing. And I guess you could try to say she was an addict to that endorphin high (runner's high, etc.) and she just had to get more - but if that is the case, why didn't she have this reaction EVERY time she was in a relationship? Did she have it with you? Was she unable to control herself in the beginning of your relationship (and throughout?) bc she was so hopped up on endorphins that she couldn't see straight? And, how long does it last?

 

Without a study of actual brain chemistry/reaction - I would be hard pressed to believe it. People can say all kinds of things about why they did what they did and why they weren't responsible - spend a day in a court room, you'll hear a lot of "it wasn't my fault bc xyz" with xyz usually being some reason that the person wasn't in control - they were hapless bystanders, pushed into circumstances by the universe that they had NO control over.

 

Your wife didn't trip and fall onto someone else repeatedly, against her will - sorry. She actively made a choice, again and again, to disregard things she knew (that she was allergic to cig smoke, for instance) so that she could actively participate in an affair with another man. She can come back now and say, "well, I never did it before that or again, so see, aliens!" - and you can believe that - but my belief? She saw the consequences of her actions and scrambled to do damage control to save herself from having to experience those consequences to their full extent - she went into survival mode - and as soon as this was offered up and she saw that you accepted it - she ran with it. Why wouldn't she? It obviously made you feel better - and it made her feel better (I couldn't control it! I was high!) and allowed you both to excuse her choices to some extent - enough of an extend that her consequences were lessened.

 

Again...using the term "fog" didn't "relieve" anything. :rolleyes:

 

It was a metaphor to help illustrate the changes in her behavior.

 

I give up.

 

Think what you want. You've already got a preconcieved notion, and aren't interested in truly understanding what's being posted.

 

I'll ask again...what WOULD you accept as an actual case "for" the concept of "the fog" from posters here on LS???

[AnotherRound]

EXACTLY!!!

 

THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS IS THAT THEY'VE DISENGAGED FROM REALITY!!!

 

Make that mental leap, and you might begin to track here.

 

But you're acting like it was against her will - I'm saying she CHOSE to disengage from reality. In your scenario - she is NOT responsible - in mine, she is 100% responsible.

 

I don't need to make a mental leap - You obviously believe that people are able to be out of their heads and doing things they are unaware of - I do not agree. I believe that we all make choices - some people, when they don't like the way things played out (it didn't go IRL quite the way they had it imagined in their heads) they try to minimize their active choices. I don't buy it - sorry.

 

For your wife's sake, I'm glad you buy it - as she obviously did not want to lose you - and this gives you both a bit of comfort. That's fine - but let's call it what it is - comforting. That doesn't make it real.

 

And, without empirical data - no, I'm not going to buy it. I have seen too many people try to excuse their behaviors by pretending that they "didn't know what they were doing"... whatever. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing - they just didn't like the consequences afterwards... it makes sense that they want to lessen their "involvement" - but wanting something to be true, and it being true are two different things.

[Owl]

But you're acting like it was against her will - I'm saying she CHOSE to disengage from reality. In your scenario - she is NOT responsible - in mine, she is 100% responsible.

 

I don't need to make a mental leap - You obviously believe that people are able to be out of their heads and doing things they are unaware of - I do not agree. I believe that we all make choices - some people, when they don't like the way things played out (it didn't go IRL quite the way they had it imagined in their heads) they try to minimize their active choices. I don't buy it - sorry.

 

For your wife's sake, I'm glad you buy it - as she obviously did not want to lose you - and this gives you both a bit of comfort. That's fine - but let's call it what it is - comforting. That doesn't make it real.

 

And, without empirical data - no, I'm not going to buy it. I have seen too many people try to excuse their behaviors by pretending that they "didn't know what they were doing"... whatever. They knew EXACTLY what they were doing - they just didn't like the consequences afterwards... it makes sense that they want to lessen their "involvement" - but wanting something to be true, and it being true are two different things.

 

NOT AT ALL. It was NOT against her will.

 

EVERY CHOICE SHE MADE, SHE MADE OF HER OWN FREE WILL.

 

I GET THAT. SHE GETS THAT.

 

What's the point of posting a thread discussing this if you're ONLY going to accept empirical data that you know damned well can't be provided by a non-scientific community on this forum?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[thomasb]

Again...using the term "fog" didn't "relieve" anything. :rolleyes:

 

It was a metaphor to help illustrate the changes in her behavior.

 

I give up.

 

Think what you want. You've already got a preconcieved notion, and aren't interested in truly understanding what's being posted.

 

I'll ask again...what WOULD you accept as an actual case "for" the concept of "the fog" from posters here on LS???

 

 

It is always sad to have someone more interested in shoving their opinion down someone's throat rather than 'discussing' the issue.

I was definitely in a 'fog' during the affair. My behavior was abhorrent to my upbringing and personal beliefs and morals. I finally came out of the 'fog' to see what I was doing to the people I really loved by engaging with the OW.

[AnotherRound]

Again...using the term "fog" didn't "relieve" anything. :rolleyes:

 

It was a metaphor to help illustrate the changes in her behavior.

 

I give up.

 

Think what you want. You've already got a preconcieved notion, and aren't interested in truly understanding what's being posted.

 

I'll ask again...what WOULD you accept as an actual case "for" the concept of "the fog" from posters here on LS???

 

Scientific proof. If I believed everything someone told me - especially about why they weren't responsible - well - lol.

 

I want scientific proof that the brain is so flooded with endorphins that these people cannot be held responsible for their repeated actions over lengths of time. It doesn't make sense - it just doesn't.

 

If you walk in on someone raping your 4 year old daughter, and you go into a rage and kill them - that is "flooded by endorphins". It lasts for a few minutes, at the most- and when this has happened (and it has IRL) within MINUTES after the action, the person who completed the action KNOWS that they were out of control and acted out.

 

I guess some people could be really susceptible to endorphin highs - enough so that they aren't able to control themselves. Or maybe, your wife never had a good grip on reality in the first place? I mean, was she just naturally closer the precipice form the get go? Was she always pretty impulsive and out of control of herself? Oh - you said she wasn't - that this was completely out of character for her... so, what was it? The perfect storm? She made travel plans etc and all that and was not in control? At no time did she think, huh, this is weird... this is not me?

 

Like I said - if you buy it, great - I do not. Of course I have an opinion on it, I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't, lol.

[Owl]

Where exactly did he say his wife acted against her will or chose to not take responsibility? Were any of that true, it's unlikely they would have successfully reconciled.

 

THANK YOU FOR SEEING THE OBVIOUS!!! I appreciate that someone got this from my posts. Clearly you and LG did. Much appreciated.

[Owl]

Scientific proof. If I believed everything someone told me - especially about why they weren't responsible - well - lol.

 

I want scientific proof that the brain is so flooded with endorphins that these people cannot be held responsible for their repeated actions over lengths of time. It doesn't make sense - it just doesn't.

 

If you walk in on someone raping your 4 year old daughter, and you go into a rage and kill them - that is "flooded by endorphins". It lasts for a few minutes, at the most- and when this has happened (and it has IRL) within MINUTES after the action, the person who completed the action KNOWS that they were out of control and acted out.

 

I guess some people could be really susceptible to endorphin highs - enough so that they aren't able to control themselves. Or maybe, your wife never had a good grip on reality in the first place? I mean, was she just naturally closer the precipice form the get go? Was she always pretty impulsive and out of control of herself? Oh - you said she wasn't - that this was completely out of character for her... so, what was it? The perfect storm? She made travel plans etc and all that and was not in control? At no time did she think, huh, this is weird... this is not me?

 

Like I said - if you buy it, great - I do not. Of course I have an opinion on it, I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't, lol.

 

If all you'll accept is scientific proof...what's the point of this thread posted in a completely NON-SCIENTIFIC forum about relationships????

 

What did you hope to gain from this thread?

[AnotherRound]

It is always sad to have someone more interested in shoving their opinion down someone's throat rather than 'discussing' the issue.

I was definitely in a 'fog' during the affair. My behavior was abhorrent to my upbringing and personal beliefs and morals. I finally came out of the 'fog' to see what I was doing to the people I really loved by engaging with the OW.

 

Eh - there was a specific article provided to discuss. I was hoping to get APs views on it - bc like I said, you few WS and the BSs here have made it abundantly clear that they believe in it. I know you believe in it (or say you do now at the minimum) - But I also know that it would never hold up in a court of law - never.

 

It's not scientific, it's not rational, it's not realistic - bc if it was - there would be no crimes ever. People would just accept that we all do things "out of character" and no punishment is needed - let's just hope that fog doesn't come back again, phew!

 

There's a big difference in looking back, in hindsight, and saying, "Man, I wish I would have handled that differently" or "wow, these consequences are tough, had I known then what I know now"... that's accepting that what you CHOSE was maybe not the "right" thing - or that you bargained more than you were willing to lose. That's just hindsight - not a freakin' fog of endorphins that renders you helpless and out of control.

[cocorico]

It's come up a lot lately - and I know we have talked it to death - but I am interested in your interpretation of this? I am including the text from a Marriage Advocate's link so that we are all using the exact same definition. I am sure this is not the ONLY def, but it is the one that most closely relates to how I've heard the term used - and I want us all discussing the same definition, not adding our own ideas of what the term means when WE use it. *As an aside, I did find it interesting that the article stated that "Experts and BS's" are the only ones who really use the term - ?????

 

Let's discuss

 

Coping With Infidelity: Understanding The “Wayward Fog”

 

Posted on July 10, 2012 by Lil

Are you faced with infidelity in your marriage? Has your Wayward Spouse begun describing a marriage unfamiliar to you and a history of which you don’t believe you were a part? Have you been told that the infidelity is your fault or that your spouse never loved you in the first place? Perhaps you’ve heard, “I love you, but I’m not in love with you.”

These are typical symptoms of a biochemical rush commonly known as “The Wayward Fog” or “The Affair Fog”. How do you know if it is occurring in your marriage…and what can you do about it?

Infidelity And The Wayward Fog

 

The Wayward Fog and The Affair Fog are terms often used by experts and victims of infidelity to describe the euphoria felt by someone involved in an affair. The Fog, while strangely named, is a real phenomenon. On websites supporting infidelity, it is sometimes referred to as the “affair bubble.”

The Fog Rolls In

 

The Wayward Fog is described as similar to being brainwashed. The thrill of the affair envelops the wayward partner in good feelings and the excitement can be overwhelming. S/he feels a new high, a feeling of being “in love.” Comparisons are made between the marriage and the affair and, inevitably, the marriage suffers.

They Justify The Infidelity

 

Next begins a repeated internal dialogue of rationalizations, over and over again in their minds. The Wayward Spouse needs to rationalize with themselves in order to cover up and minimise their feelings of guilt. They may convince themselves that their marriage was already bad and that it had been for a long time, that their spouse doesn’t really love them, and that the affair partner must truly be their “soul-mate” because he/she is the only one who understands them. They may tell themselves, and the Betrayed Spouse, that the Betrayed Spouse is “better off without them.” Frequently this rationalization leads to inventing reasons for having the affair in the first place, including that the affair is like “therapy,” something they do for themselves. They say it makes them a better, happier spouse — “If I am happier, then how could that be bad for my marriage/family/spouse?”

Loss of Empathy

 

After a short time, they cease to think of anyone else’s feelings — not parents, not spouses, not children, not friends — only their feelings and the feelings of their Affair Partner. To a foggy Wayward, the Other Person is without flaws, weaknesses or selfishness. Soon the cheating spouse begins to believe the lies they’ve been telling themselves. They, therefore, act accordingly, treating their spouse with anger and hostility, and their affair partner in a loving and affectionate way. Despite all of this, the Wayward might not want out of the marriage. They enjoy the familial comfort of home, with the added excitement of the affair. It is as if they become addicted to the affair, needing the constant high it brings, no matter the total disregard for the Betrayed.

Thus beings a cycle of wash, rinse, and repeat and soon they are deeply entrenched in the fog.

Typical Fog, also called The Wayward Script, includes:

* Re-writing marriage history

* Projecting blame for the Wayward Spouse’s guilt onto the Betrayed Spouse

* The typical “I love you but…”

* The proclamation that the other person is the Wayward Spouse’s “soul mate”

* The demonizing of the Betrayed Spouse in order to rationalize the Wayward Spouse’s infidelity.

*

Gaslighting

An Addictive Fantasy

 

Of course, The Fog is nothing more than a fantasy created by the affair partners. They are under the influence of an addictive drug similar to that of a teenager in love. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to remove them from this Fog. The dopamine that is released in the brain is the same chemical that is released when someone uses cocaine or opium. It clouds judgement and makes people do and say things they would never do or say otherwise. This does not excuse the Wayward Spouse for their behaviour, it just partially explains what is occurring within their thought process.

The Fog Is NOT An Excuse

 

I cannot stress enough — The Fog does not provide an excuse for the actions of the Wayward Spouse. However, it certainly does explain where some of the behaviour comes from and how it can manifest. If you read any of the works of Dr. Helen Fisher, you will gain a clearer understanding of the dynamics of the human mating system and how dopamine, oxytocin, and vasopressin can affect a person’s judgement and personality.

Confusion and Uncertainty

 

For the Betrayed, The Fog makes for a very confusing and trying time. Not only has the person you thought you could always count on stabbed you in the back, but they are now acting totally out of character. They have probably rewritten your relationship history and are professing their love to someone else. If you can have a rational, calm discussion with your Wayward Partner, sometimes you can point out the inaccuracies and inconsistencies in their story. More than likely, however, if they are deep in the Fog, this conversation will be unproductive. Listen to the Wayward Spouse’s complaints and ask yourself, “Is there a kernel of truth in that?” While the Fog presents a warped perspective, often these complaints contain genuine grievances that were problems prior to the affair, and need to be addressed.

The Freedom of Understanding

 

Gaining a better understanding of what your Wayward Partner is thinking is beneficial to the Betrayed in that s/he can understand that the infidelity is NOT about them. Now is the time for the Betrayed to begin to take care of him/herself to further his/her own growth and healing.

Affairs are fantasy and even the blindest Wayward Spouse eventually realizes and acknowledges that fantasy isn’t reality. But this reality most always happens after the affair has ended.

The lies a person will tell themselves can take many forms. They are not always about leaving the marriage or demonizing the Betrayed Spouse…but they are always bad for the marriage.

If you have to rationalize it — it’s wrong.

The right choice is evident and does not require explanation.

Sources:

marriageadvocates.com

talkaboutmarriage.com

survivinginfidelity.com

emotionalaffair.org

affairsurvival.com

 

This entry was posted in Coping with Infidelity, Featured Articles, Guides, Infidelity and tagged Affair, betrayal, cheating, deception, dishonesty, Gaslighting, infidelity, manipulation. Bookmark the permalink.

 

This is totally unlike anything that happened during our A. However, it is very similar to what my H's family have described happening to him during his first M.