The Fog - APs take on it?

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

There was of course something I was missing in my marriage which made me open for a new love. That something would not have gone away if my ex had not allowed me the possibility to check the validity of my emotions. He was hoping that I, like he himself had done earlier in our relationship, would realize that it was he I truly loved. To his disappointment it turned out to not be so. Your wife never had the chance to check if she truly loved you or not. The ultimatum you gave her denied her that option.

 

That is not fair, and it's extremely one sided. An ultimatum given to a cheater is not "denying" them anything, IMO. It's done in self preservation. If I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who is cheating, but still want to save my marriage, the cheater has 2 choices (if honesty is in the picture): quit the extramarital relationships, or quit the marriage.

 

Their choice to cheat was theirs, and so is their choice to stay or to go, in the case of an ultimatum. MY choice about whether to remain with a cheater to give them the chance to check whether they loved me or not is MINE.

 

Furthermore, nobody needs another person to "allow" them to "check the validity" of their own emotions! That's YOUR job! Allow YOURSELF to check, if you need to check - which I don't even understand, because as far as I'm concerned all of my emotions are valid (that's not to say acting upon them would be valid - or wise).

 

Also, maybe in YOUR case something missing in YOUR marriage made YOU "open for a new love." This is certainly not a given, and I bet not even true in the majority of cases, if personal accountability is at play. I think that infidelity is usually triggered by a deficit in the person who does it.

 

This whole angle on cheating sounds tremendously passive-aggressive to me.

[MissBee]

No, it didn't show any of you where her love was because she never got to test the emotions she had for her OM. What it did show was that she was rational and logical enough to realize that there is always a risk that new love will prove to be nothing more than a fling, and faced with the ultimatum of losing the marriage (and access to her children, or am I remembering that incorrectly?) for something untested, she did not dare check it out. I don't know if it was you or she who decided that her emotions had been "fog" and thus had no bearing on her love for you.

 

There was of course something I was missing in my marriage which made me open for a new love. That something would not have gone away if my ex had not allowed me the possibility to check the validity of my emotions. He was hoping that I, like he himself had done earlier in our relationship, would realize that it was he I truly loved. To his disappointment it turned out to not be so. Your wife never had the chance to check if she truly loved you or not. The ultimatum you gave her denied her that option.

 

 

 

I have never heard anything like this in my life.

 

She married this man.

 

She is still with Owl today after having a choice.

 

You're saying essentially now she is simply in a brainwashed relationship with her husband because she couldn't "test" her relationship with the OM.

 

That seems quite implausible.

 

Your love for someone stands alone....you don't need to test it against anything, unless you are that fickle. Are you saying you can only know if you love someone (especially someone you chose to marry and were inlove with for years) if you get someone else and then test your relationship with them?

 

As this thread goes on I feel I am sinking into some Tim Burton-esque land of no return. Lost in Oz comes to mind in particular

Edited April 19, 2013 by MissBee

[Spark1111]

No, it didn't show any of you where her love was because she never got to test the emotions she had for her OM. What it did show was that she was rational and logical enough to realize that there is always a risk that new love will prove to be nothing more than a fling, and faced with the ultimatum of losing the marriage (and access to her children, or am I remembering that incorrectly?) for something untested, she did not dare check it out. I don't know if it was you or she who decided that her emotions had been "fog" and thus had no bearing on her love for you.

 

There was of course something I was missing in my marriage which made me open for a new love. That something would not have gone away if my ex had not allowed me the possibility to check the validity of my emotions. He was hoping that I, like he himself had done earlier in our relationship, would realize that it was he I truly loved. To his disappointment it turned out to not be so. Your wife never had the chance to check if she truly loved you or not. The ultimatum you gave her denied her that option.

 

I did let him test his feelings. it went psssssst.....in about 14 days.

 

Then he started to beg and to plead with me but I wasn't having it.

 

I think that is about what 95 percent of people in affairs do once exposed and forced to choose.

[Owl]

No, it didn't show any of you where her love was because she never got to test the emotions she had for her OM. What it did show was that she was rational and logical enough to realize that there is always a risk that new love will prove to be nothing more than a fling, and faced with the ultimatum of losing the marriage (and access to her children, or am I remembering that incorrectly?) for something untested, she did not dare check it out. I don't know if it was you or she who decided that her emotions had been "fog" and thus had no bearing on her love for you.

 

Nope, not losing access to her children. Although, that was in some way a risk I'd suppose given that she'd planned on living with him in another state in a studio apartment with absolutely no room for the kids.

 

Again..."fog" doesn't mean that her emotions weren't real...it means that her ability to mentally process through the situation to accurately view impacts and potential risks and outcomes was compromised. And it clearly was compromised as demonstrated by her inability to view/identify those risks and impacts as I spelled out clearly in previous posts.

 

It wasn't until she was forced to view those risks/impacts up front and unavoidably (per that "ultimatum") that she started to consider them. And even then, it took her a few weeks after her choice to stay to continue to process through them and understand them more completely.

 

I'd also like to point out that she was already convinced that her "new love" was far more than a fling. The soulmate term came out, for an example. She was absolutely insistent that it was true love. The "go see if what we have is true, and if it's not I'll come back" was her attempt at compromise when faced with that "ultimatum".

 

Again, all of this from one of the most rational, intelligent woman I've ever known.

 

There was of course something I was missing in my marriage which made me open for a new love. That something would not have gone away if my ex had not allowed me the possibility to check the validity of my emotions. He was hoping that I, like he himself had done earlier in our relationship, would realize that it was he I truly loved. To his disappointment it turned out to not be so. Your wife never had the chance to check if she truly loved you or not. The ultimatum you gave her denied her that option.

 

I would suspect that your H hoped that you'd go, decide that things weren't what they thought they'd be with MM, and come back to him willing to work on those things that were missing in your marriage. I'd be surprised if he was completely blind to whatever was missing as well, but quite possibly either didn't realize the scope of the problem or simply didn't understand the problem until faced with your departure.

 

The difference here is that you went, and came back unwilling/unable to work on that missing piece, as you felt you'd already found it in MM.

 

My wife didn't go, and so was willing to work on finding/fixing what was missing in our marriage.

 

That means she "missed out" on a chance with OM...but avoided the certainty of never finding out if what we had was repairable. She was faced with the choice of either exploring options with him and losing me, or staying with me and losing him.

 

You ultimately made that same choice down the road. Your choice was different...but at the end of the day, who can truly know what was better?

 

I'm of the opinion that we all have multiple opportunities for that "great love"...we make it where we find it, it's not something that is a once in a lifetime, now or never thing. We get what we invest into our relationsips. Any relationship can have the potential to be the "great one" if both parties are willing to put the effort into it.

[jlola]

He took care of our children while I visited my new love interest, yes.

 

do you live with your new love interest now? Who are the kids living with? How did they handle this.

 

Did your husband have an affair also on the past? Or am I getting story mixed up?

[jlola]

That makes me sad. If that's not foggy thinking, I don't know what is.

 

 

You know, I can't help thinking her husband's strategy did work in his favor after all. He just doesn't realize it yet.

[Owl]

He still wants me back.

 

You've made it clear that you've moved on and don't want/love him in that fashion...he clearly needs to get a grip and move on, and recognize that he's being foolish for hoping for this.

 

Perhaps he SHOULD have taken a note from my book, and cut his emotional losses and ended things when you left him to begin with? It would have put him that much further down the healing process at least.

Edited April 19, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[eleanorrigby]

Eh - no reply to your quote. It must be ignored because her own posted article proves everyone else's point that the fog state of mind caused by that rush of brain chemicals does exist. So comical, yet sadly tragic at the same time, the self imposed delusion.

 

Yeah, I just updated myself 10 pages and nuthin'. smh

[MissBee]

The feelings of "love" clearly lead people into all kinds of shenanigans.

 

The problem is however, these over the top feelings often subside and then sometimes what remains is chaos.

 

I think sensible adults know that you can feel those in love feelings for more than one person in life (as well as for people who are not good for you), and if married for a while and things have become routine, it is possible to be infatuated with someone else. It would be wise to realize that infatuations come and go and that just because you feel all head over heels now with your AP, doesn't mean your relationship will work out, that they are your "true love" or you should jeopardize your family/life for something that may very well be transient. Yet the fog seems to be that when APs are hopped up on this feeling, they will seemingly risk all or make illogical plans, without taking this into consideration. Yet, also, when dday rolls around, they frantically throw the OW/OM under the bus. Some would see it as them coming to their senses, but of course many APs, for their own (understandable) agenda, believe that their choice to stay married is because they are being forced or the marriage is really the fog and so on.

 

It is also wise for adults in committed relationships to know that one need not follow up every whim and fancy and I can't imagine any married person trying to decide if they love their spouse by "testing" any feeling they have for someone else first LMAOO! I'm sorry this is so impractical. You already know if you love your spouse. You may not feel very romantic towards them now, but to say you don't know if you love them until you run off with someone else? What?!! Maybe you run off and find that you love this "new love interest" even less, after it wears off, so run back to your spouse, who you love more, although you don't love-love them? So how can you be sure? Tying your love for someone else to your possibility for having feelings for another is very tenuous. I imagine most people know darn well if they love their spouse or not and only those who seem to value romantic love and that phase of infatuation above all, seem to think that relationships are all about that and are fickle in that if it wears off they can't know if they love their spouse unless they test someone else. Again, what??!!

 

 

No one stays in a fog forever, just like on that thread where some APs again tried to disparage hysterical bonding (it seems anything that plays a role in reconciliation is looked at with vitriol by some APs and needs to be explained away ), I said, no one can hysterically bond forever or be in a fog forever. At some point, reality comes to light.

 

I was in a fog with my ex until the clouds rolled back and it was clear. With my exAP, I doubt he was in a fog, and although I had been hurt for a while, to this day, I can look back with clarity and say stuff was real and wasn't just temporary high feelings of romance. With my other ex the feelings were real...but shallow, and not sustainable and really made me behave crazily, esp when I was fearing I would lose it. It was an infatuation that had nothing to back it and for a year I was convinced it was true love. With my exAP years and years later I realize it wasn't just craziness. ONLY THE WS and the BS who knew the spouse BEFORE the A and are observing their spouse's behavior during and post A can determine if it is fog. The WS mainly determines it, as they are the ones to express their own thought process and feelings surrounding the A, and the BS can confirm it based on a comparison between spouse before A, during A, after A.

 

The AP has no such reference point often and are not able to be the ones to determine anything about the fog.

[eleanorrigby]

!!!!

 

 

It's also insane to post the definition of fog at the outset of the discussion then in your negation, employ a totally different meaning than what you posted, and then try to argue about it, even after others have pointed out that what you have accused them of saying it means and even your own article, says it doesn't mean that.

 

I can't. I. Don't. Know. Anymore.

 

Even worse to start the thread with an article posted, asking us to stick to the article, but then OP refuses to reference or discuss the article, even when specifically asked. smh again.

[jlola]

I can't mention the website here . But one of the owners of a popular "cheaters" website closed it down a few months back.

 

He wrote a long letter to members explaining why. He said no matter how much money his website was generating , he could not in good conscious continue. He saw too much selfishness and self absortion,such coldness from the people who posted, he could no longer make excuses for being a part of that. It was basically all about ME!!!

 

Can't say I blame him.

[canuckprincess]

I've been in my relationship with my boyfriend who just happens to be married for over 7 years. Can the fog last that long lmfao!

Edited April 19, 2013 by canuckprincess

[jlola]

I find it amazing some of these women are having affairs with a man who had 19 Dday's or someone who has had more than 1 affair partner,or will not leave his wife for whatever reason, but they still stick around.

 

They all think they are the one he truly love. There are a million and one excuses why he cannot leave his wife. Now I would call that a major fog!

[jlola]

I've been in my relationship with my boyfriend who just happens to be married for over 7 years. Can the fog last that long lmfao!

 

 

In affair,yes. It is that illusive situation that has not been fully satisfied. How can you stay in a situation for 7 years with someone who is committed to another? Why is his commitment not with you?

[canuckprincess]

I find it amazing some of these women are having affairs with a man who had 19 Dday's or someone who has had more than 1 affair partner,or will not leave his wife for whatever reason, but they still stick around.

 

They all think they are the one he truly love. There are a million and one excuses why he cannot leave his wife. Now I would call that a major fog!

 

You do realize that not all AP's want them to leave.

[MissBee]

Those choices made in confusion/unknowing of reality are "foggy" because you are making choices on limited data. Like driving in the fog you can only see a few feet out and HOPE you don't get into an accident...

 

I think these claims in my own situation were valid in those metaphorical senses. And i think its logical to ascertain there are others like me who can relate to this metaphor. And so just like "hell" probably doesn't exist, its METAPHOR as state of existence in torment and pain is appropriate to describe feelings for some.

 

I think we can probably ascertain that "fogs" exist as metaphors. We can get into the science behind the "fog". Once we determine if its valid as a metaphor. (Much like in comparative religions we begin examining evidence of a literal existence after a hypothesis is accepted)

 

So rational, love it

 

PS: I'm also a religionist with a focus on the sociology and athropology of religion!

[Owl]

Atheist Scholar, thank you for also pointing out that the use of the word "fog"...is not a scientific term, but a metaphor used to describe the disconnected thought process and typically out of character behavior demonstrated by a WS during an affair.

 

That's all the term is. A metaphor. A descriptive term used to describe unclear thinking/behaviors/actions.

 

Like a similar term that's commonly accepted..."the fog of war".

 

Only in this case, instead of a fog caused by chaos on a battlefield, it's a fog caused by emotional chaos in the heart and mind.

 

Like the "fog of war"...it doesn't in any way excuse behaviors committed as while "in the fog". Soldiers are still expected to obey the laws of land warfare, regarldess of the "fog of war". Spouses are still expected to act as a spouse, and accept responsibility for their actions while in the "affair fog".

 

Metaphor...not scientific definition requiring peer review.

[AnotherRound]

Even worse to start the thread with an article posted, asking us to stick to the article, but then OP refuses to reference or discuss the article, even when specifically asked. smh again.

 

Lol - that would be silly, wouldn't it?

 

I asked that people use the definition of "the fog" used in the article - As I notice a lot of folks like to make up a definition by tweaking it and then using it universally. Eh, you know...

[eleanorrigby]

Lol - that would be silly, wouldn't it?

 

I asked that people use the definition of "the fog" used in the article - As I notice a lot of folks like to make up a definition by tweaking it and then using it universally. Eh, you know...

 

Did you notice that many or most of the responses mirrored the article?

Did you want to talk about that at all?

[Owl]

I believe this is due to many BSs holding the desire that their WS/all WSs take full responsibility for the EMR and the pain it caused them, and simultaneously holding the desire to diminish and discredit the EMR/EMRs as not being a regular relationship and the emotions felt not being true love but due to a chemically induced high.

 

How much harder would it not be to reconcile, or even to just accept the thought that your spouse truly loved the AP? That it wasn't a fantasy, it wasn't a bubble, it wasn't a fog, it was pure, true love and a relationship they chose to be in despite the hurtful consequences it had to you? How do you get over that your spouse loved, really truly loved, someone else? It's much easier to define it as being a fog, a high, chemically induced, lost their mind, out of character.

 

Was looking back through this...

 

What point would there be to reconcile if the relationship was true love?

 

You're right...it wouldn't just be much harder...if it were indeed true love, I'd go so far to say that this would make true reconciliation impossible.

 

There's no basis for reconciliation if the affair relationship was indeed a "true love" relationship...if that's what it was, the only real "solution" to this situation would clearly be divorce. Reconciliation is simply impossible with someone who is "in love" with someone else. PERIOD.

 

But...

 

There'd be no reason for the WS to even attempt reconciliation at that point. They might attempt to keep the marriage...but they wouldn't attempt to reconcile or fix it, on the contrary, they'd absolutely continue the affair, and the cycle would rinse/repeat until the marriage finally ends...as we've seen happen at times here on LS.

 

But...how do you explain the marriages that DO reconcile in that case? The ones that end up HAPPILY reconciled? Was it "true love" then? Or...was it "fog"?

 

Or am I about to be told that true reconciliation is impossible because it was true love...and my life for the last several years didn't actually occur?

[thomasb]

As soon as the 'fog' lifted from my mind my wife and I were on the path to reconciliation. We have been for well over a decade now. Our lives are happy and prosperous. We work together to solve issues that come up in our every day lives. And I am the delusional one? Just don't think so.

And by the way. I gave the guilt up years ago when my wife forgave me. I live my life honestly with authenticity now. It is a great way to live and feel about yourself.