The Fog - APs take on it?

[eleanorrigby]

Held her 100% accountable for actively making every choice she made and NOT allowed her to skirt some of that by claiming she was in a fog and out of her own control.

 

Owl did you do that? ^^^

[MissBee]

And I thought I had given my opinion of the flip side. I guess I am having trouble explaining myself.

 

People make irrational, selfishish decisions. I think they regret them, but I still think they are fully aware(I know you don't like my saying that, sorry) of what they are doing regardless of how powerful the chemical rush is to their brains. It is a bad decision, but it is a decision.

 

That is as clear as I can get, and I don't know what else to say on the subject. So I will try not to say anything else.

 

I don't think we've disagreed about the awareness and decision aspect....so not understanding what further point is being made. I said the same thing you just said, in way more words and with copious examples.

[Owl]

Owl did you do that? ^^^

 

That's what I'm trying to figure out. I need AR to tell me specifically what I let her skirt on, or specifially how I didn't hold her accountable for what she did.

 

I'm very curious what, specifically, she bases her opinion of my recovery on.

[AnotherRound]

At no point during the A were we of the opinion that the other had no flaws, and there was no period of "limerance". Instead, we started off with a purely instrumental arrangement, based solely on sex, and at that stage while we didn't dislike each other, we could probably each have made a long list of why the other was unsuitable for a long-term, full-time R, as well as why we ourselves were. Certainly I was aware of shortcomings on both our sides from the outset, but given that I was looking for nothing beyond some really hot sex, they weren't dealbreakers.

 

As I got to know him better over the years, I learned much more about him than my initial research had shown, and I came to understand several things in context, and became acclimatised to other things, and also noticed that as he got to know me better he relaxed around me a great deal more and I got to see different sides to him than the rather formal public persona. Also, as I got to know his family and friends I got to see him in those contexts, and to learn about aspects of him through their eyes, having known him for decades, and the more I saw the more I discovered to like. It was a slowly growing friendship, developing over the years, rather like wearing in a pair of heavy walking boots until they become really comfortable.

 

Along the way I also learned more about his home situation. He had at first told me he was happily M, or rather, had not corrected my assumption that he was, and had certainly told me he had no plans to leave it. He had gotten back together with her not too long previously after a separation which had been very difficult for his kids, and he made it clear his first obligation was to them. As I had obligations of my own, I welcomed that, and he occupied a small portion of my life, tucked away between my other interests and commitments, dusted off and hauled out when it suited me.

 

He did not rewrite his marital history - I learned about that from his family and long-term friends and when I questioned him about it he would agree that certain things had happened as described by others, but would always defend his then-W and argue for a special dispensation for her shocking behaviour because of her "difficult background" and her "emotional problems". He refused to acknowledge that her behaviour was at all abusive, and would make all manner of outrageous excuses for her even when it was clear that he recognised how ludicrous it sounded. It really was like some weird kind of Stockholm Syndrome, and I encouraged him to read up about that, and to get IC as he was taking strain from the dissonance of the "double life" he was being pulled into.

 

He also got treatment for his depression, and together with the reading and the IC, he began to emerge from the gas lighting he'd been subjected to and to recognise his situation for what it was and to form a concrete plan of action to get him to where he wanted and needed to be.

 

And that too - the rewriting thing. Every WS cannot be imagining that they are in a bad relationship (those who claim to be). We know for a fact that the divorce rate is at 50% in the US - that is half of all marriages ending - and not all of them have infidelity issues. Are those people imagining their marriages weren't working?

 

There ARE marriages that aren't working. That is a fact. Sometimes, WSs say things to the AP that gets back to the BS and they feel bad when they see how hurt the BS is by that - but sometimes, what was said was absolutely true. The truth DOES hurt sometimes - right? To hear from someone else about your own faults is upsetting, I'm sure, esp in this context - but that does not mean that the person re-wrote their marital history. They just admitted some things that they weren't willing to admit to the BS - for whatever reason, my guess is the hurt that would result.

 

If someone says their spouse is controlling - maybe their spouse is? I mean, that is NOT outside of the realm of possibilities, surely.

[Poppy fields]

I don't think we've disagreed about the awareness and decision aspect....so not understanding what further point is being made. I said the same thing you just said, in way more words and with copious examples.

 

There is no further point. I am beginning to think we are in agreement here. lol

[AnotherRound]

I'm curious about that too. Especially as I'm not sure what AR thinks it is that I DID do?

 

AR-...prove to me also how the use of an analogy somehow "excuses" the actions that the analogy is used to describe.

 

"Fog" is simply the word used to describe the actions/behaviors of a person during an affair. It's an analogy. How does that excuse the actions? What if we said "Peanut butter sandwhich" in place of fog...does that excuse those behaviors any more, or any less?

 

So, why call it "a fog" and try to insinuate it is a physical and scientific thing? Why not just say "that time when my spouse was hurting me on purpose with their actions"???

 

The fog implies, and you literally said, that it meant that the person was not themselves. That they were not making clear decisions bc of brain chemistry. ????

[AnotherRound]

I get where you are coming from. You're a realist. And that's perfectly okay. I usually tend to agree with you too But in this case I honestly have NOTHING to gain from using the fog thing. My H has barely even grilled me on the A topic. He never brings it up anymore. And is completely happy with me and our life and has forgiven me. I have never ONCE told him that I was in a fog. ever. I still haven't forgiven myself though and admitting I was in a fog doesn't make me feel better about what I've done. It doesn't help. It probably makes it worse for me wondering who I am and if I am ever capable of that sort of behavior. It makes me question everything I know about myself and believe to be true. The fog I was in was a curse. Not a get out of jail free card. Maybe I am contradicting myself, I dunno. I should probably zip it before someone starts looking at my previous threads

 

This. This is what I think of when I see/hear "the fog". I think there are some people who honestly just look back and think, "wtf?". I've done it - who hasn't? And then there are those who take it a step further from "wtf?" to conclude "well, I obviously wasn't making my own choices there - that was NOT me". When all along, it WAS them. They were just making hurtful choices - and they can't come to grips with that in their mind.

 

I get it - what everyone is saying (aside from those who don't add to the thread but just lurk and jump in to be cute, lol) - but I'm sorry, I just do not agree. I was not in a fog, nor have I ever been. Every choice I have made has been 100% me - lucid and aware - knowing the consequences - and ready to take my medicine when that cookie crumbled. I have guilt for hurting others - but I don't try to dodge it - I just own it. I have hindsight vision and see my mistakes clearly later - but I was there - and there was no doubt in my mind at the time that it MIGHT be a mistake. I wasn't shocked later to see myself making some decision that I made - I was there, lol.

 

That's it. If someone uses "the fog" and it doesn't work the way I'm thinking it works - great. I'm skeptical - bc I'm reading things here that say it works EXACTLY the way I think it does (to relieve some of the guilt, and explain away the fact that someone actively chose to hurt someone else and disregard their feelings).

[Poppy fields]

Can someone please explain to me how an other man or woman, who has never had a wayward spouse, can begin to describe how a betrayed spouse feels, how they think, and why?

 

 

It's one thing to ask questions, quite another to tell someone " you feel that way? No you don't " especially when it's a situation that the person has never been in...

 

Most of us have been in love, most of us have been hurt, moans of us, married or not , have had relationships that may not have been very healthy, most of us had relationships end...this is not the same as being married...

 

As for peer reviewed journals? " oh, you can't or don't feel the way you do or you are wrong because it's not in a journal"

 

Piffle!

 

I have been all of the above, and I have stated how I feel. Not how anyone else does or should feel.

 

My feelings are not peer reviewed though, unless you consider LS a reputable commitee.

[AnotherRound]

Can someone please explain to me how an other man or woman, who has never had a wayward spouse, can begin to describe how a betrayed spouse feels, how they think, and why?

 

 

It's one thing to ask questions, quite another to tell someone " you feel that way? No you don't " especially when it's a situation that the person has never been in...

 

Most of us have been in love, most of us have been hurt, moans of us, married or not , have had relationships that may not have been very healthy, most of us had relationships end...this is not the same as being married...

 

As for peer reviewed journals? " oh, you can't or don't feel the way you do or you are wrong because it's not in a journal"

 

Piffle!

 

People can guess. I was a BW and then an OW - so I know how both sides feel - so, I'm not just guessing on either of these. And like I said - had my exWS tried to pull that crap on me, that "It wasn't me! I wasn't making decisions the way I "normally" would!" - I would have laughed in his face. They may not have been decisions he would have "normally" made, but they were certainly decisions that he made - fully conscious and aware.

[eleanorrigby]

So, why call it "a fog" and try to insinuate it is a physical and scientific thing? Why not just say "that time when my spouse was hurting me on purpose with their actions"???

 

The fog implies, and you literally said, that it meant that the person was not themselves. That they were not making clear decisions bc of brain chemistry. ????

 

lol@ "That time when my spouse was hurting me on purpose with their actions."

 

Why replace one word with 13? To me they mean the same.

[ladydesigner]

This isn't everyone's situation only mine: As a fMOW, I was completely in A fog. The person I chose as my AP was not someone who was normally my type, he was short and not very fit, my WH was tall, handsome and fit. The only thing we had in common was that we liked the same kind of movies and we were both artists. He didn't like to go out and I did. What my xAP did do for me was tell me everything I ever wanted to hear. He gave me LOTS of ego strokes. That was it. The sex ended up being a disappointment and the hiding of the A became a hassle. Lying to my WH also not so much fun. The A bubble for me started to deflate on it's own until it became a wrinkled mess that I don't really recognize anymore.

 

I do not look back on my xAP with any fond memories or any of the time we had spent together. I honestly do not care where he is in his life and I hope he feels the same exact way about me. I was not a good person during the A and neither was my xAP. I was hurting my family and hurting xOM by using him. xAP was hurting his GF by lying and helping hurt my family.

 

I know not all A's happen in an A bubble so I do not mean to offend anyone with my post. i am only explaining how I related to the "Fog" in my A situation.

[AnotherRound]

Can someone please explain to me how an other man or woman, who has never had a wayward spouse, can begin to describe how a betrayed spouse feels, how they think, and why?

 

 

It's one thing to ask questions, quite another to tell someone " you feel that way? No you don't " especially when it's a situation that the person has never been in...

 

Most of us have been in love, most of us have been hurt, moans of us, married or not , have had relationships that may not have been very healthy, most of us had relationships end...this is not the same as being married...

 

As for peer reviewed journals? " oh, you can't or don't feel the way you do or you are wrong because it's not in a journal"

 

Piffle!

 

And - I'm not asking for people's feelings to be peer reviewed... what? lol

 

I'm asking for proof of "the fog" from peer reviewed sources since those are the most valid (proven through hypothesis and scientific study and such).

 

I'm not telling anyone that they don't feel what they say they feel, or think what they think - I'm simply saying, from my perspective, it APPEARS that they may not be able to see the situation subjectively (since they are smack dab in the middle of it, and they benefit from believing in the fog).

[AnotherRound]

You claim to be a psychologist and you don't know anything about brain chemistry and its effects?

 

Nope - I'm not a psychologist, just a poster - a layman.

[AnotherRound]

lol@ "That time when my spouse was hurting me on purpose with their actions."

 

Why replace one word with 13? To me they mean the same.

 

Because in the way that it was used, it did NOT mean the same thing at all.

 

The fog = my spouse was not in control of their own actions, thoughts, and behaviors and feelings.

 

The other = my spouse was 100% choosing to hurt me and disregarding the consequences of that.

[AnotherRound]

And - I'm not asking for people's feelings to be peer reviewed... what? lol

 

I'm asking for proof of "the fog" from peer reviewed sources since those are the most valid (proven through hypothesis and scientific study and such).

 

I'm not telling anyone that they don't feel what they say they feel, or think what they think - I'm simply saying, from my perspective, it APPEARS that they may not be able to see the situation subjectively (since they are smack dab in the middle of it, and they benefit from believing in the fog).

 

Objectively - not subjectively... lol.

[cocorico]

My H just walked in. I asked him if he experienced a "fog" during the A and he looked at me as if I was insane. When I read him the OP he said, "I can see why MCs choose to claim that. I'm sure it's a highly lucrative industry." He went on to say that the A helped him gain clarity on what was objectively -he sees now, although at the time he resisted being told by his family, friends and colleagues - a highly dysfunctional and abusive M, to redress the chemical imbalance in his brain resulting from the long depression caused by the M, and to seek the professional assistance he needed to get things back on track. He said it helped him regain authenticity and integrity after years of living in an alternate reality where the rules of logic and reason were suspended.

 

He said, "it's all a matter of congruence. If everyone who knows you, and even those who do. To, are all telling you the same thing but you are insisting they must be wrong because you are so invested in believing what you need to believe, that could be a 'fog'. That was my M. That was what the A helped clear. Now, what everybody who knows me, and those that do not, and everything I read, say is consistent with what I observe myself, and so I can recognise it to be real. That is what the A helped me to achieve. If there was a fog, the A helped dispel it and provided me with the clarity to recognise things for what they were."

[eleanorrigby]

He was responsible. I've never given him an excuse for his behavior.

The fog is no excuse.

[Owl]

So, why call it "a fog" and try to insinuate it is a physical and scientific thing? Why not just say "that time when my spouse was hurting me on purpose with their actions"???

 

The fog implies, and you literally said, that it meant that the person was not themselves. That they were not making clear decisions bc of brain chemistry. ????

 

OK...as I said in a previous post...

 

It's an ANALOGY.

 

Do I need to define the word analogy?

 

It's a descriptive imagry used to describe the mental processes and the actions/behaviors of someone during an affair.

 

You feel it somehow excuses those behaviors...and yet I've not seen any indication in HOW it somehow excuses those behaviors.

 

You've failed to provide me any kind of evidence...anecdotal or otherwise...that it HAS IN FACT BEEN USED TO EXCUSE behaviors, or was somehow a method that a WS used to avoid responsibility for their behaviors.

 

GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE. AN EXAMPLE THAT DEMONSTRATES YOUR POINT.

 

Show me where it's happened...please?

 

You've claimed that...in your esteemed opinion...that's somehow happened in my own situation. GREAT...SHOW ME. Give me specifics outlining your point in my situation.

[Owl]

Because in the way that it was used, it did NOT mean the same thing at all.

 

The fog = my spouse was not in control of their own actions, thoughts, and behaviors and feelings.

 

The other = my spouse was 100% choosing to hurt me and disregarding the consequences of that.

 

And this is completely and totally contrary to all of the posts you've read here by every BS that's posted on the subject.

 

Congratulaions, you've jumped to a conclusion not just without any evidence...but in complete and total opposition to all of the anecdotal evidence that numerous posters have provided.

 

You completely and totally disregard the experiences and opinions of the very folks most likely to know.

 

Now THAT is some impressive mental ju-jitsu. The force is strong with this one!

[Owl]

What, specifically, did you research, and where?

 

What terms did you look up, in what database or reference system?

 

Still interested in this information.

[Owl]

And - I'm not asking for people's feelings to be peer reviewed... what? lol

 

I'm asking for proof of "the fog" from peer reviewed sources since those are the most valid (proven through hypothesis and scientific study and such).

 

I'm not telling anyone that they don't feel what they say they feel, or think what they think - I'm simply saying, from my perspective, it APPEARS that they may not be able to see the situation subjectively (since they are smack dab in the middle of it, and they benefit from believing in the fog).

 

By the same token, and with that same logic, could you also not agree that:

 

I'm not telling anyone that they don't feel what they say they feel, or think what they think - I'm simply saying, from my perspective, it APPEARS that they may not be able to see the situation subjectively (since they are smack dab in the middle of it, and they benefit from (not) believing in the fog).

 

As vehement as you are that BS's are deluded into believing in "the fog" because they benefit from it, could not OW/OM be EQUALLY as deluded for NOT believing in the fog because they benefit from it NOT being real?

[Decorative]

It makes sense. The only person who can verify the fog is the WS who experienced it and the BS who experienced it secondhand and witnessed it. This is logical AR. What fog would the AP experience?????

 

In any case, as I said, I don't do polarizing. We belabored the BS aspect already hence I said, alright, lets be fair now and talk about the other aspect, why some APs are vehemently against this and are also the only ones dismissing it.

 

It is the due diligence for you or anyone to be suspicious of the fog being promoted by BSs (and also the claim which was suspicious to me was that BSs make it up, no mention was made when I saw that, of the WS). Likewise, it is due diligence to look at who is dismissing it and then examine what stake they have in it. Then after understanding everyone's stake, we can further explore the validity in the claims, more objectively.

 

I love it when you write nerd-y.

[Owl]

Carhill posted on a thread about "the fog" over on Infidelity what I thought was a great definition of "fog" as supplied by a psychologist. Might be worth some folks going over to read it, as it came from a "professional".

[PhoenixRise]

Or maybe - others are making up stuff about some alien "fog" to make themselves feel better?

 

Are you saying that NOBODY feels better by believing that their WS was in a fog and not actively choosing to love someone else physically and emotionally? If this is so - then why are people clinging so hard to the fog in this thread? If it's not a comfort - why do they need it? Or want it so badly to be true?

 

Maybe you could provide some brain scans or some other peer reviewed, scientific evidence that proves BSs and WSs feel better when they use the term "fog"

 

Because many people who have been in affair triangles are saying using the term "fog" doesn't help them feel better and DOES NOT excuse behavior in any way.

 

Even the article posted in the OP says fog is not an excuse.

 

So where is the peer reviewed evidence proving otherwise?

[Decorative]

I would like the betrayed spouses and former waywards who find the fog to be an "excuse" or something to "cling to", to please, in the words of that urban poet with the confusing hair, Eminem, to please stand up.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

*stayingseated