The Fog - APs take on it?

[Saba]

Five minutes of my life wasted on this thread. If it was meant to be an objective discussion then justifying your opinion that the fog doesn't exist because of your personal experience (or by asking your MM or exMM) is ridiculous.

 

If you want to be scientific then do it, but the quasi-science thing that you do AR, c'mon now.....

[AnotherRound]

yes, there was guilt. i believe i was also depressed, but that was even before the A.

 

however, any other time if i felt guilty about doing something i wouldn't do it. or i would stop as soon as i felt guilty - and that's about things that are nowhere as bad as an A.

 

i have completely disconnected from my father for having an A, and was adamantly against them. yet i ended up in one.

 

don't try and analyse me when i found it hard to do so myself.

 

i think it's quite curious that those against the idea of affair fog are either OW who ended up with their AP, or those still in affairs.

 

what i and some others are saying here doesn't take anything away from you and what you have/had. i can only wish i've taken on my A as a matter-of-fact, 'this is how it is' experience that some seem capable of; instead of ending up a complete mess.

 

I hear you.

 

I do want to correct you - I am not in an affair with my exMM and I am not with him either. So, the "only" ones that don't agree with it aren't only those that end up with the MM or are still in the affair actively.

 

As for your last paragraph - I get that. And, I think that for you, you are describing the "fog" as just not making good decisions at the time? Okay - I just don't think you weren't making good decisions at the time bc you weren't in your own head or heart - I think you chose (I have NO idea why, I am not you, nor was I there) to make those decisions DESPITE the pain you were causing - to others and to yourself.

 

That's my only point - honestly. It is not passive, this business of being a WS or an AP - it is an active choice. Any other time, people would be stomping their feet demanding that the APs take responsibility for their actions. I'm not sure why it's different now from the perspective of the BSs that insist their WS was "in the fog" - I mean - Was the AP in the fog too? Or just the WS?

 

I think that is interesting - that the same group of people who often demand accountability, 150% from the APs are now trying to say that for their WS - that they are still with and wanting to reconcile with - that 65% accountability is acceptable.

 

I know that people are saying it doesn't diminish their responsibility - but by it's VERY nature of being called "the fog" (foggy - unable to see?) it does diminish their actions taken. As if they couldn't see clearly - when, they could - they just chose to either A - not pay attention to it, or B -pretend it wasn't there.

[AnotherRound]

Five minutes of my life wasted on this thread. If it was meant to be an objective discussion then justifying your opinion that the fog doesn't exist because of your personal experience (or by asking your MM or exMM) is ridiculous.

 

If you want to be scientific then do it, but the quasi-science thing that you do AR, c'mon now.....

 

Lol - IKR!? I was informed that it's not a scientific site - so, I offered up some other perspectives - bc that is apparently what we are basing this on. If people believe it - then it's true. Trust me, I've looked for science regarding it - there is NONE. If it was there, and I could find it -that's what I would use. But there is no science to say it's untrue - that's crazy - how does science prove that something does NOT exist? lol Heck, at this point, after a million pages, I would more than gladly concede the point IF there was science that said it DOES exist! lol But science isn't even paying attention to this - which says to me, there is no validity. If there was, I can't believe that someone hasn't snapped it up to discover it - like Helen Fisher maybe? Because it would be quite the discovery!

[AnotherRound]

Pop psych probably looks like real psych to people who choose friends who don't read.

 

Totally off topic - but I have this cousin - lol... and she was dating this guy, and we were all sat around playing dominoes one night. We got into a discussion about a book I had read recently - and my other cousin (not dating the guy I'm talking about) and I were discussing it - what we liked about it, etc. - So, this guy pipes in and says, "I've never read an entire book in my whole life" proudly.

 

I swear - you could hear crickets - lol. It was the oddest thing to hear someone claim that with such pride - like, it was a bragging point or something? I simply looked at him and said, "Yeah, it's obvious"... I know it was mean - but really? lol My other cousin and still get a laugh out of that today - it's a silly little thing, but I struggle with trusting people who don't crave information at some level. I mean, if you don't exercise your brain- you can't expect it to be strong... ya know?

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Totally off topic - but I have this cousin - lol... and she was dating this guy, and we were all sat around playing dominoes one night. We got into a discussion about a book I had read recently - and my other cousin (not dating the guy I'm talking about) and I were discussing it - what we liked about it, etc. - So, this guy pipes in and says, "I've never read an entire book in my whole life" proudly.

 

I swear - you could hear crickets - lol. It was the oddest thing to hear someone claim that with such pride - like, it was a bragging point or something? I simply looked at him and said, "Yeah, it's obvious"... I know it was mean - but really? lol My other cousin and still get a laugh out of that today - it's a silly little thing, but I struggle with trusting people who don't crave information at some level. I mean, if you don't exercise your brain- you can't expect it to be strong... ya know?

 

I'm not sure what is worse, someone who openly admits who they are or someone who pretends to be someone they're not!

 

Maybe it would help you to view the fog as similar to someone who is battling addiction. It isn't an excuse, NO ONE has said it is an excuse, it is a description of their frame of mind.

 

You post that you'd like to hear from WS, yet for pages you've discounted any WS who posted. Then you say that maybe its WS who haven't reconciled. Why not just say in your opening post that you only wish to DISCUSS this with people who don't believe the fog exisists.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Originally Posted by AnotherRound

I think that is interesting - that the same group of people who often demand accountability, 150% from the APs are now trying to say that for their WS - that they are still with and wanting to reconcile with - that 65% accountability is acceptable.

 

May I ask where you got these numbers and could you point me to the documentation?

[Owl]

Still waiting for the OP to provide "examples" of where the term "fog" was used to excuse behaviors during an affair.

 

Also still waiting for her to spell out exactly what it is I didn't hold my wife responsible for, or that I should have done and didn't do that needed to be done as part of our recovery due to my use of the word "fog" to describe her mindset/actions during the affair.

 

Every argument she's brought to the table has been around the fact that it's not a scientific fact...which is indeed just a tangent.

 

Numerous folks have brought their own experiences to the conversation, only to have her dismiss them out of hand.

 

And yet...OP still provides nothing of any kind of substance to support her insistence that there's something wrong with using the term "fog".

I ask again...outline SPECIFICALLY what it is that I did or didn't do wrong during my recovery due to my use of the "fog" analogy. What did I do wrong, what should I have done, and what are the impacts going to be on my marriage in the future as a result. I still am interested in hearing this.

[MissBee]

Five minutes of my life wasted on this thread. If it was meant to be an objective discussion then justifying your opinion that the fog doesn't exist because of your personal experience (or by asking your MM or exMM) is ridiculous.

 

If you want to be scientific then do it, but the quasi-science thing that you do AR, c'mon now.....

 

!!!!

 

I'm so done with that.

 

I think it quite ridic for people to keep asking for peer-reviewed journals and try to call on science, when the negation of the points made and articles people posted are neither peer-reviewed nor scientific themselves. Simply someone saying they asked their exMM or H and because they said no, then that's that ...cute!

 

It's also insane to post the definition of fog at the outset of the discussion then in your negation, employ a totally different meaning than what you posted, and then try to argue about it, even after others have pointed out that what you have accused them of saying it means and even your own article, says it doesn't mean that.

 

I can't. I. Don't. Know. Anymore.

[SoleMate]

why are people clinging so hard to the fog in this thread? If it's not a comfort - why do they need it? Or want it so badly to be true?

I believe that the fog metaphor gains wide support because it explains a lot of observed facts that may otherwise be inexplicable. I don't actually see how it would be particularly comforting to assume that one's spouse is swept up in an exciting physical/emotional whirlwind with an AP that he/she has never felt and will never feel with oneself.

 

Why are some people debunking the fog so hard? Knowing that there really is no hard, objective, double-blind controlled evidence in either direction. And there never can be, either. Proper experiments would require randomly assigning people to have affairs or not, and then observing the results with frequent interviews and/or sub rosa surveillance, while also periodically drawing blood to measure endorphins etc. That is grossly unethical and could never be done in any developed country. Also, nobody with the necessary $$$$ is motivated to do any of it...unless Big Pharma could think of an expensive drug treatment for affair fog. Preferably (from their POV) one that needs to be taken for the rest of your life.

 

I see affair fog as similar to drug addiction. The behavior may make little objective sense in most cases, and may well be overriding and overwhelming the individual's conscious judgment, but never the less they keep "choosing" to repeat the behavior.

 

I should add that different A's doubtless have different levels of fog. Exit affairs would typically be lower fog. Longterm A's with repeated D-days would probably tend to be higher fog....

[SoleMate]

OK, let's all ask our Congressional representatives for funding by the NIH and CDC, for a massive study of "Affair Fog: Real or Not". Just be aware it's an uphill battle. It may even be scientifically impossible, due to the subjective and self-reported nature of the data.

 

And before we research affair fog scientifically, we just need better data on the fundamental topics of marital behavior and marital outcomes generally, particularly with respect to child development and dependence on public support dollars.

[SoleMate]

Uh oh...I just saw on another thread where a cheated-on (multiply) fiancee DID use the fog to excuse her fiance.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/379695-marrying-couple-months-but-he-already-cheated-2.html#post4752837 Post #45

[SoleMate]

And, let's separate these different questions:

 

1) Is affair fog real? YES, I am convinced by the preponderance of anecdotal evidence

 

2) Is affair fog used as an excuse? SOMETIMES

 

3) Who uses affair fog as an excuse? MOSTLY BS

 

4) Is affair fog a valid excuse? PROBABLY NOT

[2sure]

Yes, she is trying to sell herself because she has the wedding place.

[jlola]

Cocorico rote this yesterday on another post. Now I'm confused. Does she believe in the fog or not??

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/other-man-woman/386910-can-t-sleep-tonight-2.html#post4808829

 

Wow! That is exactly how my H's family and long-term friends describe how he was during his 1st M. They thought the aliens had left an anal probe or something in place that was controlling him. The "real" him was AWOL, and instead was this being in his body, a stranger to reason, completely programmed like a Moonie to trot out the accepted line....

 

One of the first things his sister said to me when we first met was, thank you for giving us our brother back. They thought I'd broken the spell and returned him to earth. And, when we've discussed it, it's a view he holds too, like Patty Hearst returning to being Patty Hearst after being Tanya.

Edited April 19, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Correct formatting and provide direct link

[So happy together]

Unless someone is in the background with a pendulum saying "You are getting veeeerrryyyy sleeeeepppyyyy", you just have to take responsibility for your actions. Sorry. I take responsibility for mine. I don't feel I make excuses. Were there reasons? Sure. But excuses? I don't think so.

 

I think if it was a 'normal' relationship with a single man and single woman, the same hormones/pheromones would still be present, but it would be okay because everyone would smile and say "She/he is in LOVE".

 

Remember that woman you see floating around the office with a perpetual grin on her face? It's love!

 

Now when you find out her man is married? It's FOG! Give me just the smallest break.

[MissBee]

I believe that the fog metaphor gains wide support because it explains a lot of observed facts that may otherwise be inexplicable. I don't actually see how it would be particularly comforting to assume that one's spouse is swept up in an exciting physical/emotional whirlwind with an AP that he/she has never felt and will never feel with oneself.

 

Why are some people debunking the fog so hard? Knowing that there really is no hard, objective, double-blind controlled evidence in either direction. And there never can be, either.

 

I see affair fog as similar to drug addiction. The behavior may make little objective sense in most cases, and may well be overriding and overwhelming the individual's conscious judgment, but never the less they keep "choosing" to repeat the behavior.

 

I should add that different A's doubtless have different levels of fog. Exit affairs would typically be lower fog. Longterm A's with repeated D-days would probably tend to be higher fog....

 

Great points!

 

It's ARs thread so she can guide it in whatever direction she wants, but quite earlier, I also wanted us to discuss if the BS needs to believe it to feel good...then, the OW who are going in so hard to debunk it, what is their motivation?

 

The premise seems to be that fog is an excuse to say they didn't know what they were doing (albeit it has been posted in the OP's own initial discussion and reiterated ad nauseum that it is not the case). Then it seems to be the offense at this false definition, is that it minimizes the A and the feelings of OW/OM. That's a legit reason to dislike the term fog. However, how is it legit to continue using a definition which is not meant? Perhaps the term fog is upsetting because based on the false notion of it as an excuse, it fosters insecurity and resentment in OW who may feel like people aren't taking their relationship and what transpired therein seriously.

 

It does indeed make sense SoleMate, that like different relationships have different levels of inlove and inlove-insanity lol, different affairs will have it too. And the fog of an affair may be very real for some like my inlove-insanity was for me. What I don't get is...if you didn't feel fog or your MP didn't...so the eff what??? Why can't you say "While I didn't experience it...clearly MANY people have." I don't think my exAP experienced any fog, because of the nature of our A, so I feel no threat or insulted way to admit this. Then again...I'm also not currently invested in an A, so that too colors my views, where I am not on the defense about my relationship and proving it to people.

 

I also am extremely puzzled at the assertion of the fog as a physical phenomenon and the insistence that it is not physical. First...can we go back to who initially claimed fog on physiological grounds? I may have genuinely missed it. But this point is being defended extra hard as though several people came out saying this. Second...it would be wise to learn that ALL of our emotions, including the emotions people describe as fog, have basis in physiology. Point. Blank. Period. Being scared = physiological. Being inlove = physiological. A mother loving her child instantly = physiological. Heartbreak = physiological. Regardless of if there is current research specifically on fog (which is also another blind spot in this argument. I doubt researchers need to isolate fog as a separate incident different from other processes of being inlove/impulsive/addictive, as it seems it is the same kind of process but simply given a name to describe a specific affair scenario of an A), this doesn't negate the feelings people feel and if they feel them and many experience them, then they are indeed real and physiological.

 

It is apparent to me that fog is a metaphor to describe a state of being and state of mind that does exist and which I've experienced. It isn't magic taking you over, just like being inlove isn't magic, although it feels like it. It still involves choosing and being responsible but if you have ever been a lust-love-post-orgasmic induced haze and are making decisions, versus, when you're not....you know there is a REAL difference. To deny this is crazy IMHO. Perhaps what you should look up, if interested to understand brain chemistry and choices, is indeed brain chemistry and how that affects decision making and poor choices.

Edited April 19, 2013 by MissBee

[Praying4Peace]

These fog threads always make my brain smoke but as a married woman having an affair I'll give you my take (which I also told my therapist)-

 

Think of it as a song playing. The 'fog' is the volume. The 'fog' allowed these types of behaviors in my case:

-calling or texting first thing in the morning, last thing at night and anytime in between if my eye were to open.

-spending literally every single waking moment on the phone or texting. Only hanging up if we couldn't talk bc something else was going on. Hanging up on everyone and anyone else if there was a call waiting including spouses.

-Feeling elated seeing that number on the screen. Even the 1,000th time. Like you won the lottery (he said this one too- we laughed about it)

-Sitting anywhere and talking for hours and hours. Yes, in boring parking lots.

 

All this is because you are desperate for contact and normal single people don't act obsessed in this way. Where you can't concentrate on anyone or anything else. I'd leave a really fun party with friends just to talk to him when I had already spoken to him for hours beforehand.

 

That said- there is more than that. There is the part that underlies the 'fog':

- The deep connection. Such a cliche phrase but what I mean is that he understood me...my habits and likes and dislikes. What I wanted out of life. Sense of humor.

-The comfortableness. I was as comfortable with him as my H in no time at all

-The feelings of real love. We didn't have it easy and we had arguments, we were working on a very real and stressful project together- we had our ups and downs but excellent communication skills.

 

All that stuff is there regardless of the foggy behavior.

So yes I loved him and still do with all my heart but I would'nt have acted freakish about it and devoted every second of my life if we were in a normal relationship.

 

Anyone who's been in it would understand. Damn I miss him now.

[Owl]

I'm not going to tell you what you should have done. I will tell you what my common law spouse did. He took care of our kids so I could go catch that plane and see if the perception I had of the man I had been speaking, IMing and chatting to for the last 9 months was merely a fantasy or if it was grounded in reality. I wondered myself as I went. My MM must have presented himself very honestly, because I have not yet discovered any misconception in how I perceived him. True, I know him better now, much better. I have gotten to know more of his flaws and shortcomings as time has gone on. We have a history now. Our communication has evolved. But the man I got to know during that 9 month EA was no fantasy, was no product of fog, it was a real life man.

 

To my ex's frustration I ended our common law marriage half a year later. But I will give him credit for letting me find out whether my emotions were merely a fling or true love.

 

My wife had that exact same option. She had tickets and everything.

 

The (possible?) difference here is that I wouldn't have waited for her if she chose to go test drive another man.

 

If she felt our marriage was poor enough that it was "ok" for her to go be with another man...then our marriage would have ended the day she left.

 

She faced that choice. She retained the option to go, right up until the moment the plane took off.

 

I don't "get" your ex being willing to let you fly away to test out your relationship with someone else...and at the end of the day, clearly that proved to be a foolish strategy for him. Even you admit he was frustrated with the outcome...so clearly it didn't accomplish what he'd hoped it would. His plan to "love you enough to let you go" ended up hurting him and your family in the long run.

 

In my case...she didn't go. She wasn't willing to give me up for him. That showed me where her love was, it showed OM where her love was, and most critically it showed HER where her love was.

 

And at the bottom line of all of this...how does this tie into the use of the term "fog" to describe someone's actions/mindset during an affair...and how does it show that it was used as an excuse to justify/rationalize their behavior, or permit them to continue in behaviors that they shouldn't have, or avoid responsiblity for those actions?

[MissBee]

Cocorico rote this yesterday on another post. Now I'm confused. Does she believe in the fog or not??

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/other-man-woman/386910-can-t-sleep-tonight-2.html#post4808829

 

Wow! That is exactly how my H's family and long-term friends describe how he was during his 1st M. They thought the aliens had left an anal probe or something in place that was controlling him. The "real" him was AWOL, and instead was this being in his body, a stranger to reason, completely programmed like a Moonie to trot out the accepted line....

 

One of the first things his sister said to me when we first met was, thank you for giving us our brother back. They thought I'd broken the spell and returned him to earth. And, when we've discussed it, it's a view he holds too, like Patty Hearst returning to being Patty Hearst after being Tanya.

 

I can't really take the polarizing seriously.

 

The bias is very apparent when the only time things exist/matter is if it will reflect negatively on a BS. The fog is only real if the MM is a victim of it by his god awful BS. However, if the MM feels he was in a fog re: the glorious affair, it is all lies and propaganda of charlatans .

 

Things only matter and exist it seems in reference to BSs and in an effort to disparage this poor exwife who gets featured on LS everyday....no matter the topic...this woman is brought up as the bad example. In any case it makes it very easy for me to dismiss, as the one-sided nature is unconcealed and thus immediately unbelievable as anything but purposeful defamation with no intent to contribute anything of substance besides disparaging a woman who isn't here.

[jlola]

I agree, it is the same thing. Love can make people act stupid whether in affair mode or in open normal mode. But, not everybody acts stupid.

 

 

I think affairs add more anxiety,drama,uncertainty than a "regular relationship. And anytime you add a 3rd party to anything, it switches the dynamics. Competition makes people act differently.

 

 

Even some children with a new brother or sister or dogs,when you add another to the mix will behave differently. There is a different dynamic when you add competition to any side of the triangle.

[veryhappy]

The fog must be real, because I experience it anytime I'm around chocolate cake. I don't think it's my true self eating the cake because any other time it's not something I would do, it's something that i actually want to avoid doing, and I would rather nibble on carrots.

[jlola]

Miss Bee,

Cocorico then writes this.Flip flop much? Established Member

 

 

Join Date: Apr 2012

Posts: 901

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnotherRound

I'm not saying that the BSs are the ones that started this nonsense about "the fog" - I'm sure it is a completely WS creation, for obvious reasons.

 

I think my H had a good point when he suggested it was invented by the MC industry. I imagine its been a real money-spinner for them - imagine how many airport books, talk shows, forums, etc it has spawned - and all the advertising revenue that has generated! They must be laughing all the way to the bank!

[Owl]

The fog must be real, because I experience it anytime I'm around chocolate cake. I don't think it's my true self eating the cake because any other time it's not something I would do, it's something that i actually want to avoid doing, and I would rather nibble on carrots.

 

But the only person who truly believes in that fog is the other person who originally bought that cake with the intention to eat it!

 

Whether or not YOU believe in that fog doesn't matter.

[jlola]

I agree, it is the same thing. Love can make people act stupid whether in affair mode or in open normal mode. But, not everybody acts stupid.

 

 

Pierre,

 

I know I told this story before. But sure proves how affairs are different when you add competition. My whole culture s riddled with affairs. So I see many examples all the time.

 

A friend's husband was having an affair and wanted to leave her for OW. He even told their pastor AND her mother. She was his "soulmate" they had so much in common. For a year I kept telling her to pull the rug from under him. Get dressed nice, go out. Stop telling him where you are going.

 

But she was afraid. Afraid it would make him want her less if she were less available. So she did everything the books she read said. Tried to be extra nice. wasn't working. He kept stepping all over her.

 

Then one weekend, some of her girlfriends were going to a church event out of town. She had lost weight,due to the stress of the affair. was buying new clothes to make herself feel better. So she was looking pretty good.

 

She told him nothing! Just left for 2 days. Did not answer his calls for 2 days. He went ballistic. Accused her of having another man. She never denied or confirmed his suspicion.

 

But I can tell you, the threat of possibly having her leave HIM for another man was too much.

 

I had always told her,once her focus is off him and she begins to go out looking real good, having a life. His focus will be on her and slowly off the OW.

 

I believe at times the wife and husband are a total mismatch. So better just to divorce.

 

But I think if you have been a good spouse,this is a good wake up call to let them know someone else will take your place hen you are gone.

 

This is why affair dynamics are so different. No matter how confident anyone in the triangle is,someone can pull the rug out and change the whole relationship.

[Owl]

The fog must be real, because I experience it anytime I'm around chocolate cake. I don't think it's my true self eating the cake because any other time it's not something I would do, it's something that i actually want to avoid doing, and I would rather nibble on carrots.

 

But the only person who truly believes in that fog is the other person who originally bought that cake with the intention to eat it!

 

Whether or not YOU believe in that fog doesn't matter.

 

Wanted to add...it's also important to note that they original owner of the cake must certainly feel better knowing that although you ate that cake, you were foggy and really wanted the carrots anyway.