day 1 of a sexless ltr/marriage

[Mint Sauce]

Ante scriptum: I put it in this board since it refers both to my failed marriage, and to my current LTR which is aimed at life partnership. Mods can move if more appropriate elsewhere.

--

So after her bad reaction to me opening up about a peculiar but innocent fantasy on Wednesday evening, we didn't have any sex anymore, but in my assumption mostly because we had too much stuff to do. This morning there was an opportunity (her daughter is at her dancing class), so I suggested we go upstairs for a few minutes, to enjoy the sunshine in the bedroom. She just smiled at me and said she wanted to plant some flowers in the garden instead... Ugh! Then went on to tell me how much she loves me.

 

So this is how it starts, a sexless relationship. Rejection wrapped in gift foil.

 

Any advice? How do I tell her how concerned I am, how much this hurt?

 

Of course I can take a "no" occasionally, but not when she should also be longing for me like the deserts for the rain.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Mint Sauce

[dichotomy]

I scanned a couple of your other threads. There is some other stuff going on right - feelings for you last gal, issues with where you and this gal and her daughter might live if you move in together etc. Does not sound like bad stuff, but lots to consider with all this, plus did not hear how you like her kid and the kid you.

 

You been together a under a year ?

 

But back to the sex. This is one instance, maybe she got thrown off a bit by your sharing a minor fantasy or something. Not nice she turned you down directly of course. But overall how is the sex life, frequency, interest, passion with her?

 

 

Sadly, and statistically, I don't know of many LTR or particularly live in or marriage were the sex got better or more frequent. In fact I only know of one where it got more fun and exploratory. So you got to look at the whole picture - what are you long term goals for life? How does she fit in?

Edited April 20, 2013 by dichotomy

[Mint Sauce]

I found an opportunity to talk to her about this, and it was good in the sense that she apologized, and explained to me that she was actually in a bad mood, but hiding it well, due to being called out of bed too early by her daughter. We've slept together since, and it was very good.

 

In general the sex is rather good (and still improving as we get to know each other), although she's extremely passive, both during sex, and in taking initiative/showing desire for me. I think that's the main issue for me really: Because she doesn't show any sexual affection, I feel like there is none. She does say she enjoys it very much, and she's open to most of what I like. Hitherto at least she went along when I took initiative, but that reassuring behavior disappeared with this rejection event.

 

There's indeed a lot of insecurity at play on her side. I confirm my desire for her very regularly both sexually and romantically, but she only responds to the romantic gestures...

 

My biggest fear is that she doesn't manage to respond to my sexual advances/displays of interest, because she doesn't experience the same desire. Perhaps she actually feels guilty/uneasy for not desiring me as much.

I've been in that situation before, in my sexless marriage. When I ask her about it, she confirms her desire, but in her actions I don't see it. No quick glance at my body in the bathroom, no quick squeeze of my behind...

 

@dichotomy, thanks for taking the time to get a bigger picture of my situation. The kid and I get along great, much better than I could have hoped for. My best-case scenario is marriage and more kids, and hopefully with this woman :-) Besides the housing issue and this sexual frustration (if I can call it that, given that we have sex regularly), all is very promising.

[Els]

 

In general the sex is rather good (and still improving as we get to know each other), although she's extremely passive, both during sex, and in taking initiative/showing desire for me. I think that's the main issue for me really: Because she doesn't show any sexual affection, I feel like there is none. She does say she enjoys it very much, and she's open to most of what I like.

 

IMO the bolded is a much bigger issue than one 'rejection'. And really, in LTRs, people occasionally do not feel like having sex. Yes, both men and women. It seems like a tad overdramatic to categorize one rejection as 'Day 1 of a sexless ltr' to me.

 

Frankly, I also think that bringing up one polite rejection to the point that she felt she had to apologize for it, is not the greatest idea, regardless of her level of desire. Yes, even if you brought it up nicely. If it had been a recurring pattern, sure, but making a big deal out of one occasion can only hurt her sexual desire for you in the long run. Nobody wants to feel like they are expected to have sex anytime their partner desires, regardless of their current mood. It quickly turns it into a chore, when that should be the last possible word to be associated with sex.

 

Mind you, this is coming from a woman who initiates sex about 50% of the time. I honestly feel that sometimes, some men shoot themselves in the foot by taking such a stance with sex, rather than accepting occasional rejection graciously. The reason I love sex with the bf so much is precisely because I don't feel that it's something I HAVE to do anytime he wants it or else he'll be calling the R into question. The mind forms powerful subconscious associations, and associating sex with a chore (which is something you have to do regardless of whether or not you feel like it) is the worst possible way to build a healthy sexual R.

 

Back to the bolded, as I said, I think that is quite a major incompatibility in your relationship, as well as a thread you started recently about her lack of desire for kink, and your strong desire for it. It isn't even something that I would consider going for the long haul with, and based on your posts here, I think sex is exceedingly important for you, more so than for many others. You sure you want to proceed with an incompatibility in THIS aspect?

[dichotomy]

Passivity is not a good place to start this early - given the long term challenges in marriage to keep desire going.

 

In other words, many marriage drop a few points on the sex scale (enthusiasm or frequency) at some point. Its not always because something bad but just normal stuff that happens - hot turns to warm on somethings in a marriage. Example -if you are starting with a 9/10 sex life while dating or in early stages of commitment...you might expect to deal with 6/10 periods eventually in a marriage or less sometimes.

 

So if your gal has a 5/10 initiative or passion now.... well your headed to 3/10 later.

 

It is very rare for me to have seen sex get better later, but it does happen.

 

Out of curiosity - do you know if she was always like this - sexually kind of passive or not aggressive.?

[Mint Sauce]

Out of curiosity - do you know if she was always like this - sexually kind of passive or not aggressive.?

 

Yes, this is why her exH left her with her newborn...He was swept away by a woman who did go after him sexually, who showed a strong sexual nature. Well, technically he didn't leave her, but he did not manage to stop his affair.

 

Elswyth, there's a surprising element in your reply, in that I've never seen myself as someone with an above average libido. After all, I survived 4 years in sexless marriage while in my late twenties. With permanent scars, though...

[Mint Sauce]

It seems like a tad overdramatic to categorize one rejection as 'Day 1 of a sexless ltr' to me.

 

It was actually a reference to my sexless failed marriage. In which I didn't really notice/understand how it turned sexless, except that it started with these gift-wrapped rejections like the one I was faced with now. I'm so scared to be headed down the same road, again (3rd time because my ltr in between was also sexless: she went frigid a few years in, which had apparently happened in all her previous ltr's).

 

Yes, I know, it sounds as if I'm doing something wrong, but neither my wife nor my ex-gf could tell me what. They didn't understand what made them tick, or what turned them off. And according to my current gf, I do everything right. But still she's not all over me...and she also has no clue what turns her on. If I ask her what she likes, I only get "I don't know, whatever you do, it's all nice"...

[Mme. Chaucer]

--

So after her bad reaction to me opening up about a peculiar but innocent fantasy on Wednesday evening, we didn't have any sex anymore, but in my assumption mostly because we had too much stuff to do

 

I can tell that you're concerned, but don't you think "not any sex anymore" is kind of extreme language for having no sex for 4 - 5 days, especially after a disagreement - about SEX?

 

This morning there was an opportunity (her daughter is at her dancing class), so I suggested we go upstairs for a few minutes, to enjoy the sunshine in the bedroom. She just smiled at me and said she wanted to plant some flowers in the garden instead... Ugh! Then went on to tell me how much she loves me.

 

So this is how it starts, a sexless relationship. Rejection wrapped in gift foil.

 

Any advice? How do I tell her how concerned I am, how much this hurt?

 

Of course I can take a "no" occasionally, but not when she should also be longing for me like the deserts for the rain.

 

I think if she had a bad reaction to you talking about your "innocent" fantasy, you need to address that. Innocent to you, but maybe threatening to her. I'm not getting on your case for whatever your fantasy is or for sharing it, but you need to work that out between the two of you. Whatever it is probably somehow hurt HER, but right now the only thing on your radar is how you are hurt by her rejection.

 

And it might not have even BEEN a reaction. Not everybody is going to be up for a morning quickie after getting started on the day just because a moment is available, and that should be okay. If you make it a big old thing to be butthurt about, believe me - you will dig your own grave. No woman I know feels more sexy towards her man because he's feeling sorry for himself and put upon because she did not meet his sexual needs the minute he expresses them - ONE TIME, in this case. Au contraire! Do you want her to drop everything and have sex with you whenever you want to if she does not feel like it because she's concerned about you pouting if she doesn't? NOT SEXY, dude.

 

People do need to keep things like this from undermining a relationship and it is the job of BOTH people. If she feels alienated from you for some reason, or if she really is determined to get her flowers planted, who are you to say what she SHOULD be feeling / longing for?

 

I also do believe that it's both parties' responsibility (I hate to use that word because it's so antithetical to sexiness) to keep the sexual spark alive. But you will be smothering it completely if you keep up this melodramatic and self centered attitude rather than doing whatever YOU can to get things on a better track.

 

Or, maybe you need to consider the possibility that you're not even ON a bad track. Or, conversely, that you and she are not sexually compatible.

 

I'd say pretty much the same thing to her if she posted here, probably. If it makes you feel any better, my husband will NEVER postpone something he feels needs doing in order to lay around having sex with me during the daytime. He would feel that was wrongfully self indulgent. This made me feel undesirable for some time. Then I decided to accept this aspect of his nature and work with it. All's well.

[Els]

Elswyth, there's a surprising element in your reply, in that I've never seen myself as someone with an above average libido. After all, I survived 4 years in sexless marriage while in my late twenties. With permanent scars, though...

 

I don't think you necessarily have an above average libido - I do however think that your mind is wrapped up more in sex than the average person. Mostly based on reading your responses on this forum, as well as the overreaction to one sexual rejection.

 

It was actually a reference to my sexless failed marriage. In which I didn't really notice/understand how it turned sexless, except that it started with these gift-wrapped rejections like the one I was faced with now. I'm so scared to be headed down the same road, again (3rd time because my ltr in between was also sexless: she went frigid a few years in, which had apparently happened in all her previous ltr's).

 

Yes, I know, it sounds as if I'm doing something wrong, but neither my wife nor my ex-gf could tell me what. They didn't understand what made them tick, or what turned them off. And according to my current gf, I do everything right. But still she's not all over me...and she also has no clue what turns her on. If I ask her what she likes, I only get "I don't know, whatever you do, it's all nice"...

 

Ah, okay. No, I don't think the way she is is 'your fault'. My post was more of a general cautionary tale. This woman may not be compatible with you or innately sexually enthusiastic, but even if you do meet a woman who is, you are likely to decrease her desire for you, or push her away, by overreacting over 1 occasion.

 

You are understandably afraid, but preemption gets you nowhere in relationships. Your response is akin to someone who has been cheated on, getting all worked up over her bf working late one night. You have to learn to leave the baggage behind.

[Got it]

Why not have the two of you read "The Five Love Languages". It may be that you are speaking different languages and find a common meeting ground or will help highlight the disconnect and confirm your fears/feelings.

[yessy21]

UNless your fantasy involves a 600 pound woman sitting on you... theres no reason for her to be exnay on the sexay.

 

Together for a year and sex has suddenly stopped?

 

you need to sit down and be like... hey... im going to die in 40 years and i really want to enjoy the time i have left. and yes that includes VAGINA. and i want yours exclusively... isnt that what i thought i signed up for.

[Sunlight72]

 

So this is how it starts, a sexless relationship. Rejection wrapped in gift foil.

 

Any advice? How do I tell her how concerned I am, how much this hurt?

 

Of course I can take a "no" occasionally, but not when she should also be longing for me like the deserts for the rain.

 

Give me a break. After one time, you are this dramatic? How much more self-centered can you be?

 

I say this from personal experience - you are going to drown her in your tiny world if you react like this. You are not the center of the world. Believe it or not, there are other factors influencing your girlfriend's life.

 

You mention she has insecurity, and write what you think you're doing to help her be less insecure. Guess what? Getting her to apologize for not wanting to have sex with you .once. is exactly what will make her insecure with you.

 

You are taking away her freedom to express herself. You are taking away her right to make her own decisions. You are helping her feel guilty and second-guess herself when she thinks about you.

 

I would recommend (from my personal journey through this, which ended in a sexless marriage and then divorce, and what I've learned since then) that you spend a good deal more energy and time developing your life .outside. of this relationship. Have fun with your other friends (or find ways to get some other friends).

 

Being a needy man (you are. I used to be, so I know) is very unattractive to women.

 

If your relationship with her isn't as good as you want it to be - with commitment to yourself, work, effort, and time you can change your attitude and behavior to be more independent and more sharing and understanding.

 

Good luck. I think you sound too smug to see that it is yourself who you should change. It took me years of pain before I saw that my behavior was the root of the problems I found around me and I don't think you're there yet.

 

But just in case I'm wrong about that - here's a tip. Most women are attracted to men who are generative. Men who are creative and are making things happen in their own lives. Outside of the relationship first.

 

Becoming more generative, fun and socially jazzy turns you into a ride that she will want to buy a ticket to join!

 

The more you focus on what it means that your partner wasn't in the mood the more that shows her that she is your main (only?) path to 'happiness', or put another way, the more it shows her you are needy and dependent on her.

 

Big Turn Off for her, and puts pressure and stress on her which she will soon start to correctly associate with you and/or your relationship.

 

The more you can act like a mature man who is enjoying life, and show her that you can live happily without sex .right now. because you have so many other things going on that you derive feelings of accomplishment from, that it doesn't dampen your mood and you can be supportive and loving to her, the more attractive she will find you.

 

Being supportive and loving toward her means you actually understand that she has a full life that sometimes interferes with her relationship with you, but you aren't worried by it because you are confident that it is unrelated to your relationship. You are confident that you two are still very much a couple. You are confident that you are attractive to her - so confident that you don't need her to apologize or explain why she wasn't turned on this one time.

 

Truly, with best wishes,

Sunlight

Edited April 23, 2013 by Sunlight72

[Els]

Agreed with the above advice. I disagree that MintSauce sounds 'too smug to change' though. There are other posters whom I would classify as such, but he seems to genuinely be looking for advice. I hope he takes yours.

[Sunlight72]

Point taken Elswyth, thank you. I do hope MintSauce will be ready to dig in and work sooner than later. It hurt, but it changed my life for the better when I got a better idea of myself and the ways I influence my world.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Sunlight72

[Mint Sauce]

Sunlight72, thanks for your extensive reply, written from experience, which is always a good point of view.

 

It did make me a bit defensive, as you expected, because perhaps I am a bit smug: I'm well accomplished in terms of job, sports, hobbies, circle of friends etc, to the extent that all 3 women in my life eagerly bought a life-time ticket for a ride with me, and not in the infatuation period, but several years into the relationship. Both women actually threatened with suicide if I were to leave them, suggesting the neediness is with them (but perhaps enabled by me, the reason for which may be insecurities on my side...)

 

However, they didn't buy a ticket for a sexual ride...

 

Perhaps I'm sexually needy. You said:

show her that you can live happily without sex .right now. because you have so many other things going on that you derive feelings of accomplishment from, that it doesn't dampen your mood...

 

That statement is very far from my reality because:

- I can not live happily without sex (if I'm not allowed to masturbate)

- sex for me has nothing to do with a feeling of accomplishment

- absence of sexual release (at the least through masturbation a few times a week) has a strong impact on my mood. In my sexless marriage I have put massive effort into hiding that, but it came out at other times (e.g. aggressive driving).

 

So yes, I am sexually needy, and perhaps still starved, due to so many years without. And this is one need I cannot fulfill with my "other friends".

 

Another avenue for thought, is that I systematically fall for women with sexual inhibitions/low libido. Perhaps I'm insecure about being able to keep a sexually hungry woman satisfied...

Evidence in that direction would be that neither my ex nor my current gf ever masturbate. It either does nothing for them, or they feel guilty about it. They all admit to sex being a difficult topic for them. Why would I date such a woman if sex is so high on my priority list?

[Got it]

I think you make some good points and it seems that your last few partners have not had the same perspective and priority on sex as you have. I am surprised that you found two women that felt guilty about masturbating and they do not engage in it.

 

I am confused why you can't masturbate, was that an agreed upon arrangement for you two?

[Sunlight72]

So yes, I am sexually needy, and perhaps still starved, due to so many years without. And this is one need I cannot fulfill with my "other friends".

 

You are missing the bigger picture.

 

I don't suggest you get your sexual needs met or entertained outside of your relationship.

 

The problem is not actual sex.

 

The problem is that you are turning your woman off. Outside of sex. In life.

 

Women are turned on in general. When a good mix of ingredients are active in their world, they are generally turned on. When that mix is wrong, they are generally turned off.

 

If the stage is set poorly during the month, the image of sex today is not a positive warmth in the back of her mind. You can't usually change that environment in 10 minutes by romancing her.

 

Foreplay for many women starts a day or 4 before sex may actually happen.

 

Just to be clear - I am no longer addressing this current point in your current relationship nor the incident you wrote about when you started this thread. I am trying to help you understand the underlying cause of your confusion and frustration with the pattern of your relationship skills.

 

I systematically fall for women with sexual inhibitions/low libido. Perhaps I'm insecure about being able to keep a sexually hungry woman satisfied...

I think you're reading the situation inaccurately.

 

You think you are describing the women you've been with but you are not. you are describing the effect that your relationship had on them.

 

This is not a problem of your woman being uninterested in sex, this is a problem of you not turning your partner on generally, so that she is looking forward to closeness or sex with you when ever she thinks of you.

 

Different people do have different sex drives. However, to be blunt - the women you were having sexless relationships with are excited to have sex with someone else.

 

They could become enthusiastic about sex with a man who turns them on and keeps their motor running (sex as they enjoy it, not to say they have the same taste in kinks you do which is a separate issue). I have learned this through personal experience, and am being direct in the pursuit of opening your eyes to the truth of your life, disregarding your immediate comfort.

 

You are reading signs that are not there (now I'm going to talk about this one incident). Your partner not being in the mood in one instance is completely insignificant if she is in the mood generally in her life. There should be a warm bed of coals in the fireplace, a warm receptivity to physicality and sexuality with you. It should be floating in the air around her like a welcoming sanctuary of affection when ever she is in your presence. Whenever she thinks of you.

 

You are missing the signs that are actually there (I'm speaking generally again now), and giving her the wrong signs to create a feeling of an enticing sanctuary with you.

 

When you two are simply interacting, with no real possibility of sex happening, she needs to be so comfortable with herself and with you that she feels completely safe and anticipates only happiness when she thinks of you or when you two enter the same room.

 

I don't mean for you to worry about the world being stress-free or perfect for her (this is where I used to examine factors that I wrongly thought influenced the difficulties of my relationship, and I think you are too, but the issues of the world are not the connected issues here). I mean that she should be able to look to you as an example of confidence, peace, fun, and openness - as you should be able to anticipate these things from her.

 

Not only with each other though! Ideally she should be able to walk around a corner unannounced at any point on any day and see you enjoying your life, building something, laughing with someone - and your attitude should be that you are ready to warmly and unhesitatingly welcome her into your circle of brightness and continue the fun with you and your compatriots and her as well, seamlessly and cheerily. That is confidence.

 

That is the part of turning on a woman that I don't think you understand. When you get that, it will become relatively unimportant if your partner wants sex .right now., because she will see you as sexually attractive generally, in the background of her world view all the time, and sex will happen the next 5 times it is appropriate for the both of you.

 

Believe it or not, when you ingrain this attitude into your psyche you will not feel disappointed to miss sex once or a few times. You will have also a warm understanding that the environment ripe for physicality and sexuality with your partner extends in all directions including the future, and this knowledge will satisfy you more than you can now see.

 

Best wishes,

Sunlight

[Sunlight72]

To put this another way, have you read The Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy? Douglas Adams includes a great vignette there. In the Guide's entry on flying, the instructions state that to fly one must fall face-first, and just before impact with the ground must become so completely distracted (by the beauty of a flower for instance) that one forgets they will hit the ground. The next moment, one will realize they've forgotten to crash into the ground and are now flying instead.

 

This is something like the dynamic of an enticing relationship with a woman. Focusing too much on her will not allow her the space she needs to view you from the side or from a distance, to observe or consider how you interact with and move through your life. Two of the components of her attraction to you are; her enjoyment of watching you interact with the world at large, and the enjoyment she feels when interacting with you.

 

These are two separate engines, and you should be keeping them both revving - for yourself. Not 'for her'. Then, if she is enticed by what she sees and feels, she will buy that ticket I mentioned earlier.

 

The art and delicacy of the dynamic of a romantic relationship is the ability to envelope someone into one realm, or the other, or both - and let them back out again - gracefully, confidently, and without apprehension. If she is not enticed do not take it personally; let her go to make room in your life for a woman who will be.

 

Cheers,

Sunlight

Edited April 24, 2013 by Sunlight72

[Els]

Wait, you're 'not allowed' to masturbate? By.. your gf?

[Mint Sauce]

Wait, you're 'not allowed' to masturbate? By.. your gf?

 

Indeed. Well, she isn't literally telling me not to, but she's hurt if I do, and so was my ex-wife. To them, me masturbating means that they/"us" is not sufficient, and what follows is a great fear that I will leave them out of sexual frustration...

 

Sunlight, I am reading (and re-reading) what you wrote carefully, it is in any case interesting and helpful, but I must point out that these women have a previous history of sexual blockage in their previous ltrs. My ex-gf had 3 ltrs before me, all of them failing on her becoming frigid. She (30) has never orgasmed. I cannot believe that this is solely due to relationship dynamic. There must be an element of me choosing the sexually wounded women to date, although this ex fully bait-and-switched me: she had a reputation of being highly sexual, but a few months in it turned out to be much more complicated...

 

And to say I've been in IC for 3 years...

[Got it]

Wow, I don't understand that. If I choose to not have sex with my husband, and he then masturbates why would I get upset about it? I had the option to have sex with him, I declined, he took care of his needs, sounds like an acceptable compromise to me.

 

And it may be that since they don't masturbate the whole idea is foreign. Even as a woman, there are times I would rather masturbate because it is just a maintenance piece, get in, get it done, don't have to focus on anyone else, have the orgasm, good to go.

[Mint Sauce]

Wow, I don't understand that. If I choose to not have sex with my husband, and he then masturbates why would I get upset about it? I had the option to have sex with him, I declined, he took care of his needs, sounds like an acceptable compromise to me.

 

And it may be that since they don't masturbate the whole idea is foreign. Even as a woman, there are times I would rather masturbate because it is just a maintenance piece, get in, get it done, don't have to focus on anyone else, have the orgasm, good to go.

 

"Got it", that sounds like a very easy-going, uncomplicated attitude towards sex. It's my attitude as well, and I'd love it if my woman could look at it like that too. If she doesn't feel the need to masturbate, in principle that's fine by me, but I find the whole set of insecurities that I have to carefully thread around frustrating.

 

That said, we had sex yesterday evening, and this morning, and it was very enjoyable As long as it's regular sex, no toys or kink involved, and I clearly take the lead, and don't ask her what she wants (that makes her shut down), it's really fun and satisfying.

[Got it]

MS - I don't have any real advice, but I do sympathize. My first marriage we were very sexually incompatible and I knew it from dating, I just didn't think it was going to be that big a deal, it would change, etc. And I was wrong. He just didn't have the same sex drive, we had sex maybe once every 3-4 months, and when we did it was about a five minutes. He wasn't into toys, I had a vib but while he wasn't against it, really control was the issue so we didn't need any extra vibrations for him. And it was really just kind of blah. I definitely couldn't show my skeavier side and I like to experiment into other things.

 

The second go around, I wanted to make sure that he had a definite drive, was open to experimenting, definitely wasn't against toys, etc. And this was a top priority for me, I learned how important it was and I wasn't going to compromise in bed. So that needed to be checked off the list before I really considered him a long term prospect.

 

I never found a good solution to the first go around, so unfortunately no sage pieces of wisdom, but I feel your pain.

[Els]

Indeed. Well, she isn't literally telling me not to, but she's hurt if I do, and so was my ex-wife. To them, me masturbating means that they/"us" is not sufficient, and what follows is a great fear that I will leave them out of sexual frustration...

 

Okay, this is a big part of the issue here.

 

They need to understand that the respect has to go both ways. You should respect that they sometimes don't feel like having sex without turning it into a big issue, and they should respect that you should be able to give yourself sexual release in that case.

 

If there are certain things that she feels insecure about you masturbating to; specific media, or people you know, etc, that would be reasonable to talk about. But a blanket ban??? I would really, really, really reconsider a relationship with a sexually incompatible partner who does not even allow me to masturbate. That's like a Catch-22.