Passionless marriage

[STEVE0158]

You are allowed to agree with whoever you want, I'm just pointing out that it may not be all that helpful to your current situation with your wife.

 

as i stated in my earlier post, i am not diverting from my game plan.

[STEVE0158]

And it's this that boggles the mind.

 

 

 

Steve, you say you'd marry her all over again anyway? How can you live with your dissatisfaction? How do you think you'll feel in another 10 years if things don't change?

 

i see it like this, i have a specific fondness of certain qualities woman have. For instance, my Wife's look, tall, dark curly hair, elegant, carries herself w/ class, slight accent, old-fashioned (this is huge for me), she still has the mentality that a man wears the pants (you don't find that often), family values are huge for her. A night out w/ her friends consists of Starbucks 6pm and home by 9pm. She's not out doing shots off other girls tits. She cares about her home. She's well spoken and educated, she loving, caring, clean. She knows the value of a $ despite having a fairly comfortable situation. Name brands mean nothing to her. She loves my daughter as her own. Together we are friends, we do things together, we have laughs, serious and not so serious conversations.

She has so many wonderful qualities that i'd be willing to forgo the hot passion (not sex) i desire to be able to have everything else about her in my life.

[adelia]

Yes knowing it was an act, much like when you see two hot girls dancing erotically w/ each other at a night club, most are looking to get a rise out of the guys. But there are many women out there who like what they see, know what they want and go after it. I have had many a girl feel me up under the table at a restaurant or grab a handful while in the car, there is something erotic about a girl knowing what she wants and going after it.

 

And once again, that's all i'm looking for in my Wife, I want her to make me feel like she wants me once in a while.

 

 

I'm naturally that way where in my relationships I loved to do spontaneous things like grab rub up against his dick, send dirty type texts like I was at home naked waiting for him and I'd leave a clothing trail to the bedroom, purposely leave my panties off during the day and let him know with a whisper while were out. Things like that but I felt very at ease in those relationships. There was never any pressure so I could be myself that way. However I was briefly in one relationship where this guy I never knew what he was thinking or how he felt. He was so introverted. I didn't know if he liked that type of thing. Other things between us got in the way and soon I felt uneasy being spontaneous and withdrew.

Some women aren't as spontaneous but it doesn't mean it can't be learned. With some gentle persuasion and openly saying what you like I bet over time seeing how it pleases you she would make an attempt

[STEVE0158]

Your negativity would have had merit if your wife hadn't shown flexibility in her ways to adjust to your needs. She have done so in the past but you are not motivating her enough to do more for you with your questionable behavioral patterns, as apparent from your declarations in this thread.

 

Giving up hope is not a solution to your problem.

 

Actually i took another bit of advice from an earlier post where someone, possibly you LM said i should discuss the Dominican Republic sexual encounter, so I did yesterday, very lightheartedly i asked what provoked her level of horny. She said she felt it was the overall relaxing atmosphere in paradise etc. I told her it was memorable an nice to see how she wanted it.

 

Last night we went to bed, she rested her head on my chest and i began rubbing her back, she was lightly moaning as i did this. hmmmm. She looked up and kissed me, all in all she showed that she was "into it" which is a hell of a lot more than she normally shows. I went down, she had an orgasm, she got on top, i had an orgasm, it was a nice "quicky" and we both went to bed feeling relaxed.

[STEVE0158]

Check my post # 22 in this thread here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/388692-passionless-marriage-2.html

 

Now you tell me! Was OP correct at treating his wife in that manner? His wife was simply checking her FB profile and she got scolded for such a petty matter. No wonder, she got pissed in response but her maturity level surprises me; she restrained her temper.

 

Fact is that OP's wife is accommodating to his needs; he himself have revealed this. However, he need to work on his attitude and/or shortcomings. He needs to play his part in all of this.

 

People do change but sometimes they need motivation. Problem is that some people have unrealistic expectations but are not willing to do hard-work themselves.

 

i'm working at it LM, got some "sugar" last night......the plan is in motion....

[STEVE0158]

I do think it is odd that she gave you a BJ and didn't want anything in return. After going that long without any sex, why wasn't she uncomfortably turned on and needing release?

 

I'd ask her.

 

I do need to be warmed up. I don't walk around horny during the day, generally. But once I'm turned on, it is VERY obvious that I am hungry for, and lust for, my husband. If it isn't obvious, well, is she truly turned on?

 

Well last night she was clearly yearning for it. I had a bit of a stubble and this usually pisses her off when i go down bc it irritates her thighs. Last night she could care less and grabbed my head and buried my face in her love nest. she came like a maniac, it was great. she didnt move for 5 min she was out of commission.

[CarrieT]

Steve, out of curiosity, have you told your wife how amazing was to you last night because SHE initiated it and was so involved?

[Phoebe]

Oh my... Talk about twisting my words.

 

Where did I ever say that women are either Puritanical sexless prudes or whore mongering freak shows? I said some express their sexuality and some don't. That is absolutely correct. You are the one who presented the false dichotomy, not me. I find it ironic that you're trying to call me out for something I didn't even do but you did in the very process of trying to call me out! LOL

 

It's attitudes like yours that prevent this thread from being truly helpful. You are not listening and you imagine that because your husband's version of romance is "let's ****", then that must be every guy's way. Guess what. You married a twat. Sorry for you, but we're not all twats.

 

The advice that is given over and over and over again on threads like this one is: hey, you be a good husband too! (assuming we are not without asking) and things like, "do some housework to help her relax. change the diapers once in a while. offer to cook for her, etc." all the while assuming the guys complaining of a frigid wife must not be doing these things.

 

What's the underlying premise here? That if a guy did do those things, she would absolutely turn into an appreciative little sexual dynamo?

 

I'm sweet as hell to my girl. Maybe too sweet. Maybe that's the problem, in fact. I've thought of that. Maybe being too nice to your girl is not considered "manly" or whatever. I shower her with affection. I offer to do some of her chores for her. I massage her out of the blue. We talk like we've known each other for 20 years instead of 2 months. Am I perfect? No. But I treat her great and she tells me so. She loves me like mad. There is no problem in our relationship in that respect. I wouldn't know how else to "step up" without actually becoming a doormat and just living literally FOR her. She's awesome. I'm awesome. She tells me so and I can see it in her face that she is sincere. You can doubt it all you want, won't change the facts.

 

Without trying to insult you, if the only time your husband wants to spend with you is when you're banging, then you're doing something wrong. I want to spend every minute with my gf. I love being with her. I never said I don't want to talk, watch tv, or any of a million other activities with her. I love it. We laugh and truly enjoy each other's company in every way.

 

Seems to me that I am meeting every one of her needs that I can think of. And guess what? I don't ask her to "warm me up" before I can talk to her or before I go for a walk with her. I don't ask her to make me want to do it. I already want to because I enjoy it. And on the occasion that I don't like the activity itself much, I am still happy to do it simply for the joy I know it will bring her by being there and doing it with her. I am not asking for anything different.

 

And again, you seem to fail to grasp the issue. You're talking about your husband's failure to give you any foreplay. I already do. When we bang, she's enjoying it.

 

Maybe I need to put it in caps for some of you to get it.

 

I WANT TO (OCCASIONALLY, AT LEAST) NOT HAVE TO BE THE AGGRESSOR. I WANT HER TO, OUT OF THE COLD BLUE, ON HER OWN ACCORD, OF HER OWN VOLITION, WITHOUT ME HAVING TO INDICATE THAT I'M EVEN IN THE MOOD, TO TOUCH ME, TALK TO ME AND OTHERWISE EXPRESS HER SEXUAL DESIRE FOR ME. I WANT HER TO REACH OVER AND TOUCH MY WHILE WE WATCH TV. NOT EVERY DAY. SOMETIMES. I WANT TO KNOW THAT SHE THINKS ABOUT ME SEXUALLY WITHOUT ME HAVING TO TELL HER TO THINK ABOUT ME SEXUALLY. I LOVE TURNING HER ON AND WARMING HER UP AND I'M FINE WITH DOING IT MOST OF THE TIME BUT I DO WANT HER, EVEN IF IT'S ONLY 15% OF THE TIME, TO BE THE ONE TO EXPRESS HER SEXUALITY TO ME FIRST.

 

THE ISSUE IS NOT MY FAILURE TO TURN HER ON AND IT'S NOT THAT SHE REJECTS ME FOR SEX. SHE HASN'T. THAT IS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOT THE ISSUE.

 

THE ISSUE IS THAT HER FAILURE TO INITIATE WHEN WE DO HAVE SEX AND HER FAILURE TO BE SEXUALLY PLAYFUL WHEN WE DON'T MAKES ME FEEL UNWANTED, UNDESIRABLE, UNMANLY AND UNLOVED. I GIVE EVERYTHING I CAN, YES MOSTLY BECAUSE I WANT TO ANYWAY, BUT WHEN I DON'T WANT TO SOMETIMES I DO IT ANYWAY BECAUSE MAKING HER HAPPY MAKES ME HAPPY. IT HURTS TO KNOW THAT SHE DOESN'T THINK THIS WAY. EVEN IF SHE DOESN'T WANT MY DICK IN HER MOUTH AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT, WHY DOESN'T SHE WANT TO MAKE ME FEEL GREAT EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE? THIS IS WHAT HURTS SO MUCH. I AM NOT ASKING FOR ANYTHING THAT I WOULDN'T GLADLY DO MYSELF (AND ALREADY DO, REALLY, CONSIDERING IT'S ABOUT"MEETING THE INDIVIDUAL'S NEEDS").

 

How dare you come in and dismiss everything that's already been written in this thread just to project your ****ty marriage life onto me.

 

Read what is written and stop for a moment to actually think about it. Your issues need fixing, but they AIN'T the same issues we here are talking about. Your obvious resentment towards your husband is spreading to all men. That's really not a good thing. Better fix that fast.

 

1. I think that you need to go back and read this entire thread from the beginning. This was not my first post in this thread and in fact Steve0158 seemed to have appreciated my input (at least at some point).

 

2. I'm divorced and as I've said previously in this thread have personal experience on both sides of the situation. I identify both with Steve's wife and tried to share my insights there, and have read AlmondJoy's thread about her boyfriend and I see similarities there too.

 

3. I've gone into more detail in my previous posts but my points to Steve were a) make sure she feels valued as a person, b) back off sexually for a while so that her own sexual frustration can build, c) the best sex advice I ever received was to stop trying so hard.

 

4. Why don't you start your own thread because you may not have meant to but it seems like you are hijacking this one.

[Phoebe]

Well last night she was clearly yearning for it. I had a bit of a stubble and this usually pisses her off when i go down bc it irritates her thighs. Last night she could care less and grabbed my head and buried my face in her love nest. she came like a maniac, it was great. she didnt move for 5 min she was out of commission.

 

Sounds like things are going well.

[STEVE0158]

Steve, out of curiosity, have you told your wife how amazing was to you last night because SHE initiated it and was so involved?

 

yes, i did this morning, even though she didn't really initiate, but her welcoming actions were very appreciated.

[STEVE0158]

1. I think that you need to go back and read this entire thread from the beginning. This was not my first post in this thread and in fact Steve0158 seemed to have appreciated my input (at least at some point).

 

2. I'm divorced and as I've said previously in this thread have personal experience on both sides of the situation. I identify both with Steve's wife and tried to share my insights there, and have read AlmondJoy's thread about her boyfriend and I see similarities there too.

 

3. I've gone into more detail in my previous posts but my points to Steve were a) make sure she feels valued as a person, b) back off sexually for a while so that her own sexual frustration can build, c) the best sex advice I ever received was to stop trying so hard.

 

4. Why don't you start your own thread because you may not have meant to but it seems like you are hijacking this one.

 

 

i actually appreciate Jealous1's input as well as all (or most) of the info i've received, no need to get snippy on any level, these threads are meant to help each other.

[annaballerina]

This thread really speaks to me! I've been in a pretty much sexless marriage for a few years. When we were having sex sane scenario he didn't initiate trying anything new. I was always the initiator. It got to the point where I just stopped because I felt so unattractive in his eyes and I am a very attractive woman. There's something about having your partner do little things to make you feel sexy and desirable to them that makes sex and relationships thrive. Unfortunately not every spouse will do this. I'd quite often grab his c ock while he was driving and rub it outside his jeans or pinch his butt. He seemed to like it. We used to French kiss for an hour straight. Now it's a big empty void that I'm not sure can ever be filled again. So my advice to you is if you're having sex ----that is a start!!! Be thankful you still have that to work with. Passion you can try to improve on. I'd give anything to have the sex back in my marriage

[Jealous1]

Steve, it sounds like things are improving quickly for you! Good for you.

 

Don't know what it is about this week, but my girl took the bull by the horns yesterday and was very aggressive me me too.

 

If this is a sign of things to come, there would be nothing to complain about. Nothing big anyway.

[STEVE0158]

This thread really speaks to me! I've been in a pretty much sexless marriage for a few years. When we were having sex sane scenario he didn't initiate trying anything new. I was always the initiator. It got to the point where I just stopped because I felt so unattractive in his eyes and I am a very attractive woman. There's something about having your partner do little things to make you feel sexy and desirable to them that makes sex and relationships thrive. Unfortunately not every spouse will do this. I'd quite often grab his c ock while he was driving and rub it outside his jeans or pinch his butt. He seemed to like it. We used to French kiss for an hour straight. Now it's a big empty void that I'm not sure can ever be filled again. So my advice to you is if you're having sex ----that is a start!!! Be thankful you still have that to work with. Passion you can try to improve on. I'd give anything to have the sex back in my marriage

 

annaballerina - yes, i am truly grateful to have sex in my marriage period. I'm basically saying, what you said as well is, it's nice to feel wanted. And when you're getting flirted with (for me in the gym) elsewhere but not at home, then you say WTF? it was made clear to me that my dicky attitude may have been somewhat of a turnoff to her. True, but the dicky attitude was a result of my sex life, so i guess it became a slippery slope of a chain reaction. At the end of the day i know my wife loves me to death and truly cares about our relationship, i honestly feel she has never cheated. She really tries to get the fire burning sometimes and other times.............who knows.

[STEVE0158]

Steve, it sounds like things are improving quickly for you! Good for you.

 

Don't know what it is about this week, but my girl took the bull by the horns yesterday and was very aggressive me me too.

 

If this is a sign of things to come, there would be nothing to complain about. Nothing big anyway.

 

Well thanks to the advice from this board I've been being less of a dick and chilling with the "all about me" attitude and it seems to be paying off, who knew?

 

I'm glad things are looking up for you as well, be sure to tell her how awesome it was. Ask how she felt about taking charge...

 

In all this going back and forth i was reminded of this one girl i had a relationship with, i knew her quite some time but i was married and she was engaged so we never did anything, there was always a sexual tension full of light flirting etc. I wound up in a divorce and she breaking it off w/ fiance. We wound up hooking up on several occasions, she was an MVP and she knew it, anal, swallowing, 3-some (never w/ me) but she loved sex, she loved 2 fingers in her ass as i would go down on her, she loved me "finishing" all over her face and tits, she was a superstar. One night she shoots me a text "you staying home tonight?" which i replied "Yeah" about 2hrs later there's a knock at my door, it's her, in high heels and an overcoat, as i get to the door which is glass, she sees me and as she's still outside opens the coat to flash me bra, panties and thigh-highs....she drove over an hour, dressed like that to come and see me...and to this day, she's married now, she still has that sex drive, her problem is her hubby can't keep up w/ her...talk about an angel of a woman....lol

[Jealous1]

Now there's a woman who understands men.

[CarrieT]

.and to this day, she's married now, she still has that sex drive, her problem is her hubby can't keep up w/ her...talk about an angel of a woman....lol

Out of curiosity, do you know for FACT that she and her husband are as wildly kinky and active as you two were?

 

I ask because what you describe as "an angel of a woman" is someone like me - I am extremely kinky and sexual but even in the throws of a long-term, ostensibly loving relationship, this type of activity wanes.

 

I just want to keep you in check that there is an ebb-and-flow to being this type of woman. I'm one of the people here who has done the two-somes, three-somes, more-somes, BDSM, etc. I am in a BDSM relationship and am marrying the man I call I Master (he calls me slave girl). But even 18 months into this relationship, that kinky dynamic has cooled a bit and as often as I offer a blow-job, we don't get into full kink with cuffs and collar but every few months.

 

Just don't idolize this woman you had a fling with and assume the dynamic of overt sexualization that existed with you two means it remains with her husband...

[STEVE0158]

Out of curiosity, do you know for FACT that she and her husband are as wildly kinky and active as you two were?

 

I ask because what you describe as "an angel of a woman" is someone like me - I am extremely kinky and sexual but even in the throws of a long-term, ostensibly loving relationship, this type of activity wanes.

 

I just want to keep you in check that there is an ebb-and-flow to being this type of woman. I'm one of the people here who has done the two-somes, three-somes, more-somes, BDSM, etc. I am in a BDSM relationship and am marrying the man I call I Master (he calls me slave girl). But even 18 months into this relationship, that kinky dynamic has cooled a bit and as often as I offer a blow-job, we don't get into full kink with cuffs and collar but every few months.

 

Just don't idolize this woman you had a fling with and assume the dynamic of overt sexualization that existed with you two means it remains with her husband...

 

No i cannot honestly say i know for sure she is as kinky, i do know for a fact that she still craves the meat pole as much as ever. She is very open about getting it and not. She is not shy to say her husband is always falling asleep on the couch and she has to pull out her toy and watch a flick.

I see her as the equivalent of a corvette, i don't want to own one, but i would love to take it for a spin every once in a while. They are great to look at but not practical.

[white123]

very interesting, we have these options:

 

1) she loves you but you are not her type

2) she likes you & you are not her type ($$$?)

3) she loves you but having some psychical block in head (needs therapy)

4) she loves you but some disease makes her frigid

5) you are the "lucky" one having fully asexual wife (10% of people are)

 

make your choice...

[xxoo]

No i cannot honestly say i know for sure she is as kinky, i do know for a fact that she still craves the meat pole as much as ever. She is very open about getting it and not. She is not shy to say her husband is always falling asleep on the couch and she has to pull out her toy and watch a flick.

I see her as the equivalent of a corvette, i don't want to own one, but i would love to take it for a spin every once in a while. They are great to look at but not practical.

 

Why is a woman like her not practical?

[STEVE0158]

Why is a woman like her not practical?

 

For ME she was not practical, give me sex 2x a week and i'm good. A quicky during the week and a longer session on the weekend and i'm a happy camper. This girl wanted sex every single day, and quickies weren't an option, if I didn't last long enough for her she would say "rest up, you have a half hour", she meant business. I would have to pop a cialis or viagra to hang w/ her bc she literally wanted it 3 or 4 times. it got to the point where my pecker was numb and i was no longer into it by the 3rd time. Not to mention we would usually have a few drinks before hand so i was really numb by that point. Don't get me wrong, she would suck me off just about anywhere, swallow and send me off, that was amazing for me.

She was just a very sexual girl, we would kiss for a little while and by the time we got down to business she was soaked and i mean soaked, i thought it was pretty hot that she would get that turned on....

So again, like a 2 seater sports car, i would like to use one for a nice weekend, but i can't afford the insurance, i can't take more than one passenger, they're no good in bad weather, eat a lot of gas..........not practical

[chaser0195]

yes she is on the pill, she's been on the pill since we've been together.

 

So let me tell you about last night's situation, she gets home from work about 6:30pm, at about 5:30 i leave to go have dinner w/ my daughter and my Mom which is about an hour away.

 

I get home a little before 9:00, we sit and bs a little about our day's topics. we have a nice conversation. About 9:45 she says "what do you want for dinner tomorrow?", pretending i didn't hear her i said "What, you want anal?" she smirked and said "I know baby i haven't been taking care of you lately." at which i just tilted my head as if to say "yeah". She then says "i'm going to bed, you coming?" Now understand something in my house, she usually goes to bed ahead of me and i stay up and watch TV. So now i'm thinking i'll be getting a little action right? She's in bed checking her phone, i lay next to her, she puts her hand on my chest and continues fk'n Facebook, after a couple minutes my blood begins to boil and i say "is this what you asked me to come to bed for?", her response "Well this is the only time i get to check facebook" ARE YOU FK'N KIDDING ME???? I GOT UP AND SAID "What about the only time to spend w/ your husband?" she said what's the dif if i was laying in bed reading a book or magazine, "no problem, i'll be on the couch watching TV" she continued to tel me i was "ridiculous" and "you're always on your phone", 95% of my phone usage is work, but to her if you're on the phone, you're on the phone.

When i got home yesterday after the help from you great people i actually felt better about my situation and realized it's not that bad, after last night, i'm not so sure.... i'm really aggravated!!!

I had a boyfriend that used to make idiotic comments like that all the time and let me tell you..IT WAS A HUUUUUGE TURNOFF. I never understood why he had to turn everything I said into sex. Now dont get me wrong, I'm not a prude and I was Ok with sexual comments at the APPROPRIATE times but most women will side with me and tell you that constant sexual comments do more harm than good. Let me give you a good example of a reply that isnt so blatantly sexual.

EXAMPLE... HER: what do you want for dinner tomorrow?

YOU: I don't know...Spaghetti with a candle light dinner and quality time with you.

This way she wont feel so put on the spot and you never know, the candle light dinner may lead to the romance you desire.

[xxoo]

For ME she was not practical, give me sex 2x a week and i'm good. A quicky during the week and a longer session on the weekend and i'm a happy camper. This girl wanted sex every single day, and quickies weren't an option, if I didn't last long enough for her she would say "rest up, you have a half hour", she meant business. I would have to pop a cialis or viagra to hang w/ her bc she literally wanted it 3 or 4 times. it got to the point where my pecker was numb and i was no longer into it by the 3rd time. Not to mention we would usually have a few drinks before hand so i was really numb by that point. Don't get me wrong, she would suck me off just about anywhere, swallow and send me off, that was amazing for me.

She was just a very sexual girl, we would kiss for a little while and by the time we got down to business she was soaked and i mean soaked, i thought it was pretty hot that she would get that turned on....

So again, like a 2 seater sports car, i would like to use one for a nice weekend, but i can't afford the insurance, i can't take more than one passenger, they're no good in bad weather, eat a lot of gas..........not practical

 

Ok, but you had the option of a highly sexual woman, and you see that as a negative (not practical).

 

So YOU CHOSE a milder woman, a less sexually demanding woman. And now you are not satisfied with that.

 

I'm trying to point out that you viewed highly sexual as a negative in a wife. But now you'd like your wife to be more sexual than she's ever been. It just doesn't compute to me. She was like this when you chose her. Moreover, you didn't view a highly sexual woman as wife material. So what changed?

[STEVE0158]

I had a boyfriend that used to make idiotic comments like that all the time and let me tell you..IT WAS A HUUUUUGE TURNOFF. I never understood why he had to turn everything I said into sex. Now dont get me wrong, I'm not a prude and I was Ok with sexual comments at the APPROPRIATE times but most women will side with me and tell you that constant sexual comments do more harm than good. Let me give you a good example of a reply that isnt so blatantly sexual.

EXAMPLE... HER: what do you want for dinner tomorrow?

YOU: I don't know...Spaghetti with a candle light dinner and quality time with you.

This way she wont feel so put on the spot and you never know, the candle light dinner may lead to the romance you desire.

 

If you read the later posts, i realize it was a stupid stupid comment, there is no denying it. And, the alternative question of course would've been a way better choice, however, considering my mood, i was in the mood to be a dick. It's no secret we get more flies w/ honey than vinegar, i was basically trying to project my intense horniness which was not being satisfied through sarcasm.

[STEVE0158]

Ok, but you had the option of a highly sexual woman, and you see that as a negative (not practical).

 

So YOU CHOSE a milder woman, a less sexually demanding woman. And now you are not satisfied with that.

 

I'm trying to point out that you viewed highly sexual as a negative in a wife. But now you'd like your wife to be more sexual than she's ever been. It just doesn't compute to me. She was like this when you chose her. Moreover, you didn't view a highly sexual woman as wife material. So what changed?

 

It's apples and oranges, much like the difference between a mini-van and a corvette, I was looking for somewhere in the middle. In addition, as i mentioned in earlier posts, its not only about sex, we have such a great relationship in every other aspect of our marriage, where w/ the other girl, only the sex was great, we had nothing else, nothing is ever perfect.

 

Funny thing is, i haven't been feeling well, may have to have a minor surgery but i'm ok as far as being mobile, eating, active etc. I've just been getting some sporadic stomach pains, needless to say, my sex-drive hasn't been there for the better part of the week. Saturday night, i'm watching TV, Wife takes a shower, comes out of the shower, calls me from the bedroom, i go in, shes laying naked on bed, candles lit and says, "lets go!".....I had no desire at that point, it didn't take much to get me going. I loved that she initiated and I told her so for the remainder of the weekend.