APs who *didn't* have a D Day...

[SweetBella1]

I agree with 100% of what you said. However, Dr. Fisher studied the brains of those in very deep love and it was very much like the brain of coke addicts. Nevertheless, I agree with you it is multifactorial and anyone can have affairs. But, some really lose it and others don't.

 

You are right, Pierre. I can attest, empirically, that my brain chemistry HAD to have been similar to a drug addict's during the height of the affair. I was absolutely behaving like a different person and I had no control over it. I hated it but couldn't stop it. The thought of not having my "fix" anymore would've made me nauseous and violent, simultaneously. THAT is an addiction and some of it had to be chemical. I'm a fully functioning adult, capable of solid cognitive thought and reason and those two things went right out the window. Likewise, when the A ended, I went through a withdrawal that mirrored physical symptoms experienced by withdrawing drug addicts. Horrible.

[ViresSanctity]

You are right, Pierre. I can attest, empirically, that my brain chemistry HAD to have been similar to a drug addict's during the height of the affair. I was absolutely behaving like a different person and I had no control over it. I hated it but couldn't stop it. The thought of not having my "fix" anymore would've made me nauseous and violent, simultaneously. THAT is an addiction and some of it had to be chemical. I'm a fully functioning adult, capable of solid cognitive thought and reason and those two things went right out the window. Likewise, when the A ended, I went through a withdrawal that mirrored physical symptoms experienced by withdrawing drug addicts. Horrible.

 

You had tiger blood

[SweetBella1]

You had tiger blood

 

LOL, no doubt!!

[tinker683]

Pierre, speaking of karma, you are incredibly insightful, do guys like that ever miss an ex, or think of them? I keep thinking he couldn't possibly care or think about me at all but he IS a human. I read an article online that said that narcissists are capable of feeling emotions so I just wonder if, in a quiet little moment, xMM ever felt like he might've acted impulsively in breaking things off over one lie. But I sincerely doubt it, I'm sure he has completely convinced himself that he was in the right, as any self respecting narcissist would do.

 

It sounds like I'm hoping he'll resurface but insecure me would just like to know that he might have experienced *something* about me worth missing. -- (Again looking for external validation from xMM. Ugh. So annoying. Lord help me.)

 

I know I miss my ex terribly and think about the other women I've been with. But then...I'm also not the narcissistic guy your xMM was so it's possible he'll think of you as a liar from here on in

[eleanorrigby]

We had a mini-DDay when it was just an EA. We had no idea what we were doing, as we were just friends, and we didn't even notice or think about the constant texting being on a phone bill. We were SO CERTAIN we were not having an affair. But once the line of admitting feelings was crossed, it was like a tsunami of feelings that dragged us further and further out to sea. I know the BS's hate that kind of passive language describing the affair but it really felt otherworldly. ANd this despite the fact that I high-tailed it to a shrink the second the admission of feelings occured. Well, his W saw the 75 texts and immediately intuited that this was an affair. No dummy is she. My H was unmoved by the admission...but over time I think the coin dropped and I could feel him alternately showering me with attention and rage once he felt like he had some competition. My AP and I immediately reconnected after DDAY, despite his FULLY working the program with his W, including MC and an very short leash. It went way underground. and again felt completely out of controil. We broke up every other day. The two of us were crippled with guilt the whole entire 1.5 years of our A, and it only ever consummated, awkwardly, once, despite months and months of intense and as-pornographic-as-you-can-get-without-penetration "safe sex." Once sex happened, the dynamic shifted somewhat. I went from having NO guilt for my H, and ONLY guilt for his W, to the reverse phenomenon. That's when I realized I'm all kinds of f*&ked-up and have no business being in ANY sort of relationship, let alone two. We ended the A at peak passion and he stalks me to this day but I am holding ground, going on months now. I think people cheat because they are yearning for their authentic selves, and the person they are in their M is a "public" persona. But the continuation of an A is anything BUT authentic. Once you realize that, you have to stop. For me, nobody is worth loathing myself for. Even if I have no love for H, but love how we co-parent together and my kids adore him. It's the ONLY reason I haven't had a D. I think when you cheat, you don't really love your spouse. You can fall in love with them all over again after the s&*T hits the fan, but, if you're cheating, you're actively not-loving. No if ands or buts about it. So--yeah--ended A at peak passion and it sucks---I am haunted by loneliness and yearning--- but an A sucks more.

 

 

 

I appreciate your succinctness. If it helps you to simplify things in this way that's great, but the jury is still out on behavioral addictions-as-science. Little is known about just how MUCH the beta-endorphin load is increased, or receptors are shut, down by "love" feelings or the feelings from gambling winnings, or by religious fantasies or any other number of pleasure-inducing activities. It's not the same as coke. Sorry, it's not, but I know it helps you all to feel that way. Some things in life are actually multi-factorial and not necessarily easily simplified. I don't think the brain science is all that accurate, even in VIGOROUSLY RESEARCHED addiction fields (the alcoholism "gene" for example, is still a controversial theory.) I think ANYONE is capable of an affair. Especially if they are married and their spouse begins to wear them down/ erode them for years and years and years and the dawning of recognition takes a while. I could argue that marriage is an addiction---many of the BS techniques for building intimacy mentioned on Marriage boards, would be considered classic Codependence symptoms if you held them up to the "addiction industry" standards. But I would never simplistically dismiss marriage as folly, even though I'm tempted to do so. Humans are simple AND complicated. The SIMPLEST answer, BY FAR is that "affairs happen/they're natural/get over it" but nobody dares apply that Occam's razor here.

 

These were two of the most interesting posts in this thread IMO.

[SweetBella1]

 

And I know why you told him you were talking to other guys. You wanted to see him jealous because after all that is ultimate validation..

 

Pierre my friend!

 

Well here's the thing, I didn't tell xMM that I was talking to other guys. xMM is the scary-crazy type of jealous man. As in, he might just go gorilla on someone. He is an ex-con, alpha male, a whole other story. I would NOT have wanted to make him jealous. The after affects were too severe, even when he imagined things, like if a guy were to hypothetically hit on me, he would become completely irrational and irate. From a completely imagined concept! So no, I did NOT willingly tell him!

 

You see, as tawdry as it is, xMM and I met via Ashley Madison (I know, I know). We both hid our profiles when he asked me to become exclusive partners. But he was suspicious of me from the start. During our A he scoped out AM frequently, flagging profiles he thought might be me in disguise. (As you said above, the serial cheater suspects everyone, all the time.)

 

At first I didn't have a secret profile but as our A escalated and I became more attached/invested, (as I hadn't wanted) I got really scared of the whole thing. I just could NOT afford for MM to be THIS important to me. I had to find a way to mitigate his power over me and the torment he could cause me, if he left. (I was, after all, his 3rd affair.)

 

MM refused a casual FWBs situation, we had to be a couple. And I couldn't quit him. So in my lame, insecurity-laden brain, I went ahead and created another AM profile which existed solely for my ego and as a safety nets of sorts. I chatted with guys (no sex talk) but didn't meet with anyone. It was all virtual, which I guess is cheating in a way. The profile was my security blanket and unfortunately for me, it did NOT diminish any of my feelings for MM. He once asked if I had another profile on AM (he said often people create secret profiles) and I lied, I did. I didn't feel bad for lying either, I told myself that the secret profile simply existed to help me maintain my sanity and self esteem during the A which was turning out to be more intense than I'd ever wanted.

 

I suspect that xMM had a secret profile as well, since I never saw his original screen name anywhere, and he would've shown up on my profile as a viewer. Or maybe he just changed his screen name. Either way, he was stalking and hiding/lying/slinking too.

 

In a nutshell, AM "told" on me, as it will inform individuals when one of their "favorites" has logged in. One day he put 2 and 2 together and realized that one of the flagged "favorite" profiles was me. He confronted me and I told him the truth. That I was really scared about my vulnerability in our relationship and the secret profile was me, creating a safety net. xMM was livid that I would have an AM profile that he I'd also actually denied. I was numb and irritated at first, like "Eff you, buddy. what do you expect? We met on AM!!" I'd been expecting him to cheat on me at any point in time! Not like we are receiving gold medals for integrity at this point.

 

So, the secret profile was a lie and he bolted. Nothing could talk him out of it, a lie is too much for him. Ironic, considering how he conducts himself. But that's neither here or there.

[GreyhoundtoNowhere]

Sweetbella, your xMM sounds just like my MM! And, i laughed when I saw you wanted Pierre to comment on your post, because I must say that a year ago or so ... he and one other poster actually did give me the 'sense' i needed to come clean to my H about the A. (even if I haven't found the way out of my A... it at least did that much)

 

but it was the same with with this validation and need for attention. MM gives me such a "high" and just like you-- he's very lovey and texts a lot. But he needs his space sometimes and has a huge ego. I now know exactly how he works and what his triggers are. It is interesting about the lying thing-- I think sometimes we think because we ARE indeed having an A and lying to others, that if nothing else... we shouldnt lie to each other. We don't have to. At least that is how I feel. Goodluck.

[SweetBella1]

Pierre,

 

If the relationship is truly over it is a moot point whether he thinks about you or not.

 

That's what cognitive reason keeps telling me, but emotions, damn those emotions!!!

 

If I broke up with a woman and i knew she did not think of me at all my healing would be faster. OTOH, if I broke up and I knew she was pining for me I would have hope and that would prolong the post brake up depression forever.

 

There is no way to know what he thinks of me. As PP wrote, he might just simply remember me as the liar with whom he enjoyed 3 months of phenomenal, white hot sex.

 

Funny that I'd be "the" liar, considering he's a spectacular liar himself.

 

BTW, he will resurface again. What will you when he calls?

 

Despite your obvious high intelligence and intuition, I think you might be wrong here. He's gone for good. I won't hear from him again. This guy is polar in his thinking, black & white in the most intense way. His ego got bruised and I wasn't as "controllable" as he needed me to be...an out of this world sexual connection couldn't trump his need to be in complete control of me and our affair.

 

One more think. Narcissists usually break up as he did. They relish the concept of punishing you for not been straight with him. These guys lie to all, but do not accept a white lie very well if they are on the receiving end.

 

 

Agreed. He probably enjoyed the fact that I (uncharacteristically) pleaded toward the end. I immediately deleted all AM accounts (that site charges $19.99 to delete an acct) and asked him what I could do to make it up to him, to earn his trust again. He said there was nothing I could do..."Just don't do this to the next guy." I replied, "There isn't going to be a 'next guy'...this is awful." Because it was.

 

The thing with this MM, once a woman is "tarnished" and promiscuous in his eyes, she is *gone*. Three weeks post breakup, he might suspect that I've taken another lover by now - I'm sure he's convinced himself that I'm seeing someone I met on my secret profile - so there's no way in hell he's going to come back around.

 

He wants a modest, chaste, sex loving whore. I guess he doesn't see the obvious oxymoronic issues there. He's gonna get some of it in one woman, but probably not all of it. LOL

[SweetBella1]

I think sometimes we think because we ARE indeed having an A and lying to others, that if nothing else... we shouldnt lie to each other. We don't have to. At least that is how I feel.

 

So you're saying there IS honor among thieves?

 

I guess I was slow on the uptake with the don't you dare lie to the other liar aspect. LOL This was my first affair and it morphed into waay more than I ever wanted it to be. I wanted FWBs, not another committed relationship. We wanted different things but I was trying to fit myself into HIS version of what the A should be. Obviously that's why we are done. I shouldn't have lied to him and I wanted to make amends but there are no second chances in this MM's world.

 

It's my loss and his loss, too. What we had isn't easy to find, in terms of compatibility and connection. Que sera, sera.

[SweetBella1]

AND...it's not like I actually cheated on xMM in the flesh. I had a secret profile. So what? He could tell me to delete it, and why it hurt him, and we could go back to enjoying each other. This was supposed to be an A, something light and fun. Talk about making things way too complicated for what they could ever be...we never planned to leave our marriages. Why couldn't it just be fun??

[SweetBella1]

 

hmmm...that is the best question. Part of me wants to get all philosophical and say "is that like 'some people are just born evil,' an argument which, like nature/nurture arguments, has stumped better minds than mine throughout the ages? " Another part of me wants to just put on Lady Gaga's "Born this Way' and dance in front of a bedroom mirror, singing into my hairbrush, feeling like I'm in this big, bad, thronging majority that's gonna get theirs on Judgement Day. But the most rational part of me knows I WANT to believe in love, I just don't. And I come here to be convinced. Infidelity is definitely NOT no big deal to me. If that were the case, I'd still be in my A.

 

Nellie. thanks for your take on my situation. It's actually comforting that someone doesn't think it was such a huge deal!!

 

You & Pierre have begun quite an interesting discussion, I hope he can reply to my responses too! I'm leaning on him today

[GreyhoundtoNowhere]

I checked out that baggagereclaim website that someone posted and just had an "AH-HA!" moment that you may be able to relate to. B/c I know I suffer from needing that validation from MM..... this rings true to those feelings:

 

"When you don’t feed you and then somebody comes along and showboats with their crumbs, it can feel like finding water in the desert and it puts the other person’s efforts out of context."

[Minnie09]

OP, re your question whether he may be thinking about you or missing you.....that guy is a hypocritical pos, control freak and borderline-abusive self-centered prick. I think he's feeling quite smug with his decision to punish you. He might be thinking of you, but not in terms of "I miss her", it's probably just a feeling of superiority that he's enjoying now. He couldn't control you, you cheated in him despite his demand for exclusivity, and now he thinks "good riddance". You fed his insecurity by not obeying, and he was uncomfortable feeling insecure. So what he did was a logical move. He regained control by throwing you under the bus. It's all about him and his need to control. He wants sex with you in his wife's bed. Control. He wants to feed you in his W's dining room. Control. He has control over his W, but you escaped his control and he's gaining it back by doing the only thing he can do that puts him back where he wants to be: in control. Mistress gone. Done. He chose that. There's nothing you can do NOW to disobey. You have to "do" what he says. It's over. You're probably pining (don't show him that).....and his world is in order again. That's all HE needs. And nobody else counts. So, yes, he's good.

[SweetBella1]

I checked out that baggagereclaim website that someone posted and just had an "AH-HA!" moment that you may be able to relate to. B/c I know I suffer from needing that validation from MM..... this rings true to those feelings:

 

"When you don’t feed you and then somebody comes along and showboats with their crumbs, it can feel like finding water in the desert and it puts the other person’s efforts out of context."

 

Thanks for that! And yes xMM certainly filled a void for me; it took on a life of its own since I crave that validation.

[SweetBella1]

OP, re your question whether he may be thinking about you or missing you.....that guy is a hypocritical pos, control freak and borderline-abusive self-centered prick. I think he's feeling quite smug with his decision to punish you. He might be thinking of you, but not in terms of "I miss her", it's probably just a feeling of superiority that he's enjoying now. He couldn't control you, you cheated in him despite his demand for exclusivity, and now he thinks "good riddance". You fed his insecurity by not obeying, and he was uncomfortable feeling insecure. So what he did was a logical move. He regained control by throwing you under the bus. It's all about him and his need to control. He wants sex with you in his wife's bed. Control. He wants to feed you in his W's dining room. Control. He has control over his W, but you escaped his control and he's gaining it back by doing the only thing he can do that puts him back where he wants to be: in control. Mistress gone. Done. He chose that. There's nothing you can do NOW to disobey. You have to "do" what he says. It's over. You're probably pining (don't show him that).....and his world is in order again. That's all HE needs. And nobody else counts. So, yes, he's good.

 

Wow, Minnie, I read this 3x in a row. And will probably read it 10 more times. You're so right. I guess I knew it all along but wanted to believe that it was more than that. (Delusional.)

 

I have NOT tried to contact xMM since the breakup in any way and have not shown him any of my pining. I suspect that he would take delight if I was one of those women who kept texting/emailing after the breakup. But that's not me. He got off, throwing me under the bus but I won't let him see the aftermath. He can just go ahead and wonder.

 

Just for the record, I didn't actually cheat on him, but I did lie to him about having another profile. Turns out his ego is bigger than his ability to believe/forgive. Thanks, Minnie, for your insight!!

[Praying4Peace]

I am really tempted to post some things I haven't shared, I'm not sure if I've admitted them to myself. Some really strange red flag behaviors. I think it would be a t/j though. I wonder if he's a narcissist of sorts. But narcissists can't feel love, right? I am very interested in what my very intelligent LSers have to say but to be honest I'm trying to figure out how to post a thread with these strange behaviors and not be too specific...

 

Everyone has posted very interesting food for thought.

 

(Maybe if I post my story ppl can tell me WTF is wrong with me too!)

[SweetBella1]

These narcissists like to paint themselves as somewhat noble and honorable. In fact, all of us like to think we are that way, but they take it to a new height.

 

Some people cheat when they are in need of validation. And to get that validation they do whatever they have to do. It is very much like an addiction and similar to the grandson that steals money from his granny to buy drugs. Some people that get involved in affairs do crazy things.

 

During the last 25 years I always had a MW that was way too close to me. I knew how to pick them. I could tell which ones were bored with their marriage and which ones were given the signals. I still laugh when i see a new one. It is always the same song and dance. I truly enjoyed romancing them and acting like the knight saving the damsel in distress, but somehow I never lost my head or was addicted to them. I had feelings and fooled around, but there was always a light bulb in my head that told me not to go in too deep. As you may suspect, I could never become an alcoholic even though I enjoy red wine. I simply do not have an addictive personality.

 

I often had to put on the brakes with MWs that wanted to get serious right away. That was not my bag. Furthermore, in my own world I never wanted to sleep with another woman because I was married. And my wife NEVER turned me down for sex. If anything she put on a tremendous performance time after time again. Nevertheless, I enjoyed knowing I could get more women if I really wanted.

 

But, there are people, that fall real hard very easily. See it here all the time and they fall very hard because the need for validation is off the charts. These women are easy prey for players. They can spot them a mile away.

 

So in the end cheaters are not really evil. They simply betray the loved one at home because they are addicts.

 

And addicts rationalize quite well.

 

I'm glad you posted this, I was curious as to your backstory. No wonder you have such incredible angles and insights on infidelity. So glad you're here!

 

Although I did enjoy validation from the A (and honestly, the A was also an escape from a stress riddled, mundane life) I did NOT want to get serious in the affair. At all. xMM took it there and it was my only option if I wanted to proceed with him. I went with it. My bad.

 

Funny...in the end of our affair I guess *I* was the player. LOL

[SweetBella1]

I am really tempted to post some things I haven't shared, I'm not sure if I've admitted them to myself. Some really strange red flag behaviors. I think it would be a t/j though. I wonder if he's a narcissist of sorts. But narcissists can't feel love, right? I am very interested in what my very intelligent LSers have to say but to be honest I'm trying to figure out how to post a thread with these strange behaviors and not be too specific...

 

Everyone has posted very interesting food for thought.

 

(Maybe if I post my story ppl can tell me WTF is wrong with me too!)

 

P4P, post it! I'd be interested to read what you're thinking. Actually narcissists *can* experience emotion and love but it is filtered through some kind of warped, unhealthy mechanism in their minds. It all revolves around them, even their emotions that are supposed to be *for* others. In their world, everything hinges on them and their needs.

[SweetBella1]

Pierre - one last question and I'll take my needy behind elsewhere.

 

You seem pretty confident that my xMM will resurface in my life. Knowing what you know of him, what would make you think this?

 

Based on my feelings, which mirror Minnie's description above, it just seems like a man like that wouldn't give an ex another thought. I can't even come up with a "how would I respond to him" scenario because it is just too unbelievable of a prospect.

 

Thanks for all of your help and support.

[SweetBella1]

This is classic.

 

I have observed that many OWs often doubt if a man is interested despite making obvious overtures. It seems some women cannot belief a man may actually be interested.

 

xMM dumped me cold. All overtures of interest that he made prior to that moment became meaningless.

 

I cannot believe you do not suspect OM will resurface. These folks often resurface (whether female or males). OM will soon realize he made a mistake and call back.

 

Care to wager a friendly bet, my cyber friend? I firmly believe that his narcissistic tendencies will interfere with any urge to contact me again. I think he will have moments where he will be tempted to text me, (if nothing else but for the sex) but I don't think he will. I really don't. I'm not as insecure and naïve as you might think, I've had my fair share of relationships. I know how people work in regular relationships but affairs are new to me.

 

You should ignore OM, but I suspect you are too impulsive and take chances that are dangerous. What would you do if this time around your H is ready and catches you cheating? What would you do if he divorces you? What will you tell the kids about your philandering?

 

Yes I've been impulsive in the past but xMM is giving me ample time to contemplate what has happened here, and how I arrived at this low point in my life. If I re-entered the A with xMM, I'd only be setting myself up for another fall. Inevitable. The past 3 weeks have been HELL. I'm just now starting to see the fog clear. I don't care to go through this again. Ever.

 

If H caught me cheating we'd have to decide our course of action. He has not been innocent, either. (This doesn't exonerate me from my burdens of guilt.) We have both contemplated divorce over the past 4 years. I doubt we would tell the kids anything about the adultery, at least until they're adults and able to comprehend such a thing!

[Lillyfree]

A went on for about 8 months or so, pretty full on for about 6.

i ended it. guilt and pride won over...

[bellasue]

I was dumped cold as well. Got a text message that said "in the process of telling wife about affair. Her conditions are we never see each other or contact each other again." Two days prior everything was fine. Go figure.

 

He's done a good job of remaining NC ever since.

 

I'm most upset that I have lost my friend who I hung out with before the A.

[SweetBella1]

I dated a narcissist once, he used to have a date/dump cycle... date for a month, then dump me and wait 2-3 months, then come back.

 

Hence why I am trying so hard not to contact xMM - I did the dumping, I really don't want to be the manipulative cow on top of everything else...

 

I give you a lot of credit for sticking it out! You're doing the right thing, even though it's painful. What are you thinking/feeling? You're wondering how xMM is doing but like you said, don't want to be manipulative? How did he take the breakup?

[SweetBella1]

I was dumped cold as well. Got a text message that said "in the process of telling wife about affair. Her conditions are we never see each other or contact each other again." Two days prior everything was fine. Go figure.

 

He's done a good job of remaining NC ever since.

 

I'm most upset that I have lost my friend who I hung out with before the A.

 

OMG! How long were you in the A and how long have you been NC? Why did he decide to tell her?

 

Losing the friendship IS a painful part of it.

[movingon45]

 

During the last 25 years I always had a MW that was way too close to me. I knew how to pick them. I could tell which ones were bored with their marriage and which ones were given the signals. I still laugh when i see a new one. It is always the same song and dance. I truly enjoyed romancing them and acting like the knight saving the damsel in distress, but somehow I never lost my head or was addicted to them. I had feelings and fooled around, but there was always a light bulb in my head that told me not to go in too deep. As you may suspect, I could never become an alcoholic even though I enjoy red wine. I simply do not have an addictive personality.

 

I often had to put on the brakes with MWs that wanted to get serious right away. That was not my bag. Furthermore, in my own world I never wanted to sleep with another woman because I was married. And my wife NEVER turned me down for sex. If anything she put on a tremendous performance time after time again. Nevertheless, I enjoyed knowing I could get more women if I really wanted.

 

But, there are people, that fall real hard very easily. See it here all the time and they fall very hard because the need for validation is off the charts. These women are easy prey for players. They can spot them a mile away.

 

So in the end cheaters are not really evil. They simply betray the loved one at home because they are addicts.

 

And addicts rationalize quite well.

 

You sound exactly like my exMM. He's not addictive at all. No wife bashing. He says that he still has sex with his wife. He often rescues me from my problems. He stopped alcohol and smoking cold turkey years ago.

 

Me, on the other hand, has the addictive personality who falls hard and has difficulty moving on.

 

So, when I broke up with him, guess who broke my self imposed NC? He, on the other hand, has always been strong.