That's not Karma - THIS - is Karma - !!

[TaraMaiden]

Buddhist viewpoint:

 

Karma (Sanskrit; in Pali, it's 'Kamma') merely literally means "Wilful, deliberate or Volitional Action."

 

That's all it is.

It doesn't exist as an energy, a power, an element or a dynamic.

it's merely a process.

 

it is non-judgemental, it does not evaluate, kick ass, mete out come-uppance or retribution.

it's just what you deliberately decide to do.

 

here's an explanation I gave a friend of mine, who asked me about it....

 

Hinduism sees Karma as being fatalistic, but there are many modern-minded Hindus which are challenging that belief. The Caste system is a case in point. Hindus believe that if you are born into the lowest caste, then you have deserved it, and you need to accept your lot, know your place, stick to it, and hope for a better re-birth. For now, you are only good enough to sweep streets, clean latrines and live in a shack. However, many low-caste Hindus are breaking the bonds of this 'Belief' and 'movin' on up' by gaining an education and doing something with their lives.

Many Hindus seek to 'block' this progress, but slow but sure, the tide is turning.

 

Buddhism has a different take on the matter. The Buddha taught that we have the ability to exercise free Will.

 

In Buddhism, as I have said, Karma, literally translated, simply means Volitional, wilful or deliberate, pre-meditated Action.

 

We all have Karma. What we all also have, is Vipaka. Vipaka is the resulting effect of our action. It could be immediate, it could be delayed. But it's as a result, with a direct link back to our decision to act in a specific way.

 

Karma is a complex issue: It is one of what the Buddha named as an "Unconjecturable". In other words, trying to discover exactly how it works, will tie our head in knots....

There are three types of Kamma One is Positive, one is Negative and one is Neutral. (Gross generalisation, there.....)

 

To sum it up, it's not the something happening in our lives that is Bad or Good. It's how we view or handle it, that is the thing.

 

Kamma is non-retributional. It doesn't judge, condemn, reward kick ass or give come-uppance.

 

It just 'is'.

 

What really matters, is how we decide to react to that 'is-ness'.

 

Karma is volitional Action in three senses: Thoughts, words and deeds - mental action, verbal action and physical action.

 

And it's the thinking that sets the ball rolling....

 

It all begins in our head, with what we think.

 

That's where Karma begins. With what we 'decide' and how we 'decide' it.

 

For example:

Compassion starts with ourselves. There's a difference between doing something to make someone happy, because we choose compassion, and doing something to make someone happy, because we choose to be a doormat.

 

Ultimately, we have to consider the motivation.

Sometimes, Compassion kicks ass. It's not always rosy spectacled and pious.

 

Hence, we have to look at the bigger picture; try to see the long-term effect. And see how something can be worked to a general benefit.

All too often people act with the first thought. They follow the 'knee-jerk' reaction, but there's a lot to be said for 'sleeping on it'.

As has been famously said, "Measure it twice lad, ye'll only be cuttin' it the once."

 

I loved a comment I read in a book by a Buddhist author: "Karma means that basically, you don't get away with anything. And it all counts."

 

In other words, whatever 'route' you CHOOSE to follow - then there will be an effect to that action. Whatever you do, try to ensure it won't kick you in the pants.

Edited May 1, 2013 by TaraMaiden

[M30USA]

OP, that's very informative. I always wondered how Buddhism, an impersonal and indifferent force, could behave like a more personal Christianity where God deals things out to you like a judge. It didn't add up. Thanks for info.

[TaraMaiden]

OP, that's very informative. I always wondered how Buddhism, an impersonal and indifferent force, could behave like a more personal Christianity where God deals things out to you like a judge. It didn't add up. Thanks for info.

 

Just for the sense of the discussion and to clarify, could you elaborate on your view that Buddhism is "an impersonal and indifferent force"...?

 

Thanks for your comments, too.

[M30USA]

Just for the sense of the discussion and to clarify, could you elaborate on your view that Buddhism is "an impersonal and indifferent force"...?

 

Thanks for your comments, too.

 

The God of the Bible, Jehovah, is a real person. This means he is more than just a set of principles by which the universe operates--as in Buddhism. He can choose to have mercy on some and not others (Rom 9:15). He can bring judgement when he chooses or be patient when he chooses. We cannot predict him since he is more than the sum total of laws, truths, and principles. However he is holy and just in all he does (Rev 15:3).

Edited May 1, 2013 by M30USA

[TaraMaiden]

Oh, OK, yeah. I thought that's what you meant, I just didn't want to presume that.

 

Fine, thank you.

 

[pureinheart]

In a simpler explanation, Karma is about self responsibility. It's actually relatively easy to understand but the herd has decided to use it as a way to placate feelings, especially when discussed in breakups and whatnot.

 

It bothers me when Karma is used in the form of, "what comes around, goes around" in the sense of vengance...that really bothers me.

[GorillaTheater]

It bothers me when Karma is used in the form of, "what comes around, goes around" in the sense of vengance...that really bothers me.

 

Bothers Tara, too.

 

Used in the sense you describe, it simply reflects our primal need for "justice". That's why I don't think schadenfreude is a good replacement word: it's not merely enjoying the suffering of others, it's enjoying the suffering of others because they had it coming, dammit.

[pureinheart]

Bothers Tara, too.

 

Used in the sense you describe, it simply reflects our primal need for "justice". That's why I don't think schadenfreude is a good replacement word: it's not merely enjoying the suffering of others, it's enjoying the suffering of others because they had it coming, dammit.

 

I can't speak for other countries, although it seems to be ingrained in western society. Having "delighted" in various degrees concerning anothers suffering where I have been wronged, just felt dirty and ugly...looking in a mirror is great for realising I to have made good and bad choices.

 

Great thread TM!

[angel.eyes]

Thanks for sharing this. This portion of the OP, in particular, spoke to me. The bolded part especially is something I believe about our day-to-day interactions with others.

 

Are there any resources that you'd recommend for additional reading?

 

...

To sum it up, it's not the something happening in our lives that is Bad or Good. It's how we view or handle it, that is the thing.

 

...

 

Karma is volitional Action in three senses: Thoughts, words and deeds - mental action, verbal action and physical action.

 

And it's the thinking that sets the ball rolling....

 

It all begins in our head, with what we think.

 

That's where Karma begins. With what we 'decide' and how we 'decide' it.

 

For example:

Compassion starts with ourselves. There's a difference between doing something to make someone happy, because we choose compassion, and doing something to make someone happy, because we choose to be a doormat.

 

Ultimately, we have to consider the motivation.

Sometimes, Compassion kicks ass. It's not always rosy spectacled and pious.

 

Hence, we have to look at the bigger picture; try to see the long-term effect. And see how something can be worked to a general benefit.

All too often people act with the first thought. They follow the 'knee-jerk' reaction, but there's a lot to be said for 'sleeping on it'.

As has been famously said, "Measure it twice lad, ye'll only be cuttin' it the once."

 

I loved a comment I read in a book by a Buddhist author: "Karma means that basically, you don't get away with anything. And it all counts."

 

In other words, whatever 'route' you CHOOSE to follow - then there will be an effect to that action. Whatever you do, try to ensure it won't kick you in the pants.

[El Brujo]

It bothers me when Karma is used in the form of, "what comes around, goes around" in the sense of vengance...that really bothers me.

 

a "karma enforcer" is a hired hit man. He makes it "come around" a little faster.

[JourneyLady]

Buddhist viewpoint:

....

 

Thanks Tara - good explanation! I learned something!

[pureinheart]

a "karma enforcer" is a hired hit man. He makes it "come around" a little faster.

 

Priddy much eh! (pretty, not priddy- done on purpose:p)

[Eve]

a "karma enforcer" is a hired hit man. He makes it "come around" a little faster.

 

A bit more work and I can see the beginnings off a good script here. The title is there already.

 

I'd watch it..

 

Take care,

Eve x

[TaraMaiden]

....Are there any resources that you'd recommend for additional reading?

On Karma specifically....?

 

Or on Buddhism?

Just to clarify....

 

a "karma enforcer" is a hired hit man. He makes it "come around" a little faster.

 

Actually, that would be a 'Vipaka Enforcer'..... but it doesn't have the same ring, I grant you.....

[TaraMaiden]

Bothers Tara, too.

 

Used in the sense you describe, it simply reflects our primal need for "justice"..... it's enjoying the suffering of others because they had it coming, dammit.

 

P.s Just to clarify, I'm not 'putting down' what you say. The commonly held view of karma is completely inaccurate buy original definition. I'm just trying to say that society has adopted 'karma' and twisted its meaning. Yes, it's inaccurate, but like many long held inaccuracies in language, if they're there long enough, they become 'accepted'. I believe OP is referring to the widely accepted (yet inaccurate) meaning.

 

(originally posted by Renard99, in this thread)

 

The following response is also reproduced in that thread.

 

I was meditating on this matter, actually... as to why I feel so strongly about this whole 'Get the definition right!' thing I have, and why it seems to get my goat - and I think I found the answer....

 

Western Society (to give it a standard label) is almost obsessed with psychology, with finding out the why, wherefore and reasoning behind actions. We have an unlimited and maybe even unstoppable compulsion to over-think things to the point of focussed obsession.

 

This forum is full and littered with threads about ex-partners and what mental affliction they may be suffering: Every conceivable mental disorder or imbalance is mentioned at one point: BPD, Passive-aggressive, sociopath, narcissistic, socially-anxious, Chronically depressed, controlling... you name it, we have a definition for every incident....

 

There is a tendency to whitewash, paint, colour or garnish some things that are tough or cruel or seem unfair, with a standard justification and explanation, by way of diagnosing a personality type.....

 

If someone behaves in such-and-such a way, there must be some underlying condition that justifies it....

 

On the other side of the coin, is the 'recipient's' reaction, response or position.... and I think it's related to our holding on so much to being victims. Everyone is a victim of something.

 

Their schooling, their parents, their ill-health, the act of a dumper and so on. We have a hard time accepting randomness and assign a victim on one side, and on the other, a someone to blame to everything.

 

We have a really hard time accepting personal responsibility.

It's always about what someone else, has done to us.

 

Sure: Dumpees often cite their own failure in the relationship, and offer justification for a lack of required behaviour on their part, for the fact that they are now a dumpee....

But it always pales into insignificance, in comparison to how much the dumper has hurt them, how badly they have been treated, how unfair, uncaring, unfeeling, inconsiderate, unkind and cruel their ex has been/is being.

 

And then we get the Karma comment; the desire to see justice being meted out, the wish to witness THEIR suffering, their sadness, their misery, their come-uppance....

We always want THEM to get payback.

 

But we want some unseen force to do it.

We want a mysterious and invisible 'badass' to come along and trip them up, and hang them out to dry...

We wouldn't do anything - We personally don't want to be the avenging angel, the one who gets satisfaction, via our own actions in vengeance for our own broken heart.

 

And this is how we 'distance' ourselves from the responsibility of taking a step back and seeing our own contribution to the situation. This is how we objectively decide that they deserve retribution, because we are the injured party.... and all thought of what we did, to bring us to this point - completely disappears...

 

It takes two to tango.

The moment I see someone wondering or wishing about Karma, and their ex- I immediately think "Well there's your karma, right there...."

 

While you're wanting them to 'get theirs' - you're getting yours, too.

 

It's not something most people want to grasp, not even those who have a better understand of Karma - beyond it being a bitch.

[TaraMaiden]

Thanks for sharing this. This portion of the OP, in particular, spoke to me. The bolded part especially is something I believe about our day-to-day interactions with others.

 

Are there any resources that you'd recommend for additional reading?

 

Try this link for starters....

 

Everyone might find it interesting.

[angel.eyes]

Thanks for the link. Glad they explained by focusing on common misperceptions. That was a helpful approach.

 

On Karma specifically....?

 

Or on Buddhism?

Just to clarify....

 

 

Was looking for both, but more so Buddhism. Are there particular reference books that provide a more in-depth summary of the religious philosophy. Akin to the Bible, Tanakh, or Koran, is/are there resources that serve as the definitive source...that get away from individual interpretation, bias, etc.?

 

Out of curiosity, what prompted you to move from Catholicism to Buddhism...if you don't mind sharing?

[CompleteFailure]

"Karma means that basically, you don't get away with anything. And it all counts."

 

In other words, whatever 'route' you CHOOSE to follow - then there will be an effect to that action. Whatever you do, try to ensure it won't kick you in the pants.

 

When you put it this way it sounds like the way people use it is correct, no?

 

The action is karma and the effect is vipaka?

[TaraMaiden]

When you put it this way it sounds like the way people use it is correct, no?

 

The action is karma and the effect is vipaka?

Yes, but remember - it's Volitional....

 

And people here are incorrectly using 'Karma' as some form of deserved hitting-stick, for exes who have hurt them.

 

And that brings me to another point:

All anybody really wants in life, from others, is to be Understood, Appreciated and Loved.

 

Sadly, for whichever reasons you may wish to cite, we all want the "Make me happy!" quick fix.

 

We have high expectations of walking on clouds in rosy-sugar land, and when that dream tarnishes, and reality comes knocking, we become disillusioned and want to perpetuate it - and if we can't re-create it here, maybe we can do it somewhere else - and we bail.

We give up.

We get out.

 

All these dumpers generally speaking (and I am speaking very generally, here) want to be happy.

Don't we all?

So, not finding the fulfilment THEY want in the relationship they're in, for whatever reason, they decide to call a halt to proceedings, and finish it.

Leave aside all the different reasons for break-ups (it takes 2 to Tango, right?) leave aside the mitigating factors, the clinchers, the final straws....

 

These dumpers never left the relationship with the express intention of hurting the dumpee.

 

They were in a "What's in it for me?" frame of mind - not a "I'm getting out and I really hope this hurts you bad" frame of mind.

 

Now: people say hurtful things and do hurtful things, in such situations, as a form of self-defence mechanism....by behaving in a cruel fashion, they build an armour for themselves, in a way, to prevent themselves caring too much, or being to hurt by their own actions and decisions....

 

And yeah - sometimes, dumpers are just complete and total jerks.

 

But it's rare that their actions are singularly premeditated and deliberately calculated to cause the dumpee as much pain and emotional harm as possible.

People in a break-up situation are generally sad, on both sides of the fence.

 

And whatever a person (Dumper OR Dumpee) DOES during this difficult time, is Karma. Whatever course of action they decide to follow, whatever they choose to express, or manifest, is their Karma.

It's not 'what they had coming'.... It's what they create due to external circumstances and experiences....

 

Karma is a complicated process... it's intertwined, and "one person's Karma is another person's Vipaka".

[TaraMaiden]

Thanks for the link. Glad they explained by focusing on common misperceptions. That was a helpful approach.

It's very basic and simplistic - I didn't want to get too 'heavy'....

 

 

 

Was looking for both, but more so Buddhism. Are there particular reference books that provide a more in-depth summary of the religious philosophy. Akin to the Bible, Tanakh, or Koran, is/are there resources that serve as the definitive source...that get away from individual interpretation, bias, etc.?

There is no one single piece of work that would project all of Buddhism and its teachings, (The Dharma/Dhamma) in one volume. However, this link takes you to a very comprehensive and authoritative site which is educated, well-presented and extremely informative.

 

 

Out of curiosity, what prompted you to move from Catholicism to Buddhism...if you don't mind sharing?

I don't mind sharing, but I'll keep it brief...

 

I was wholly and completely immersed into Roman Catholicism from the very start - born into an Italian family, that was natural.

I was baptised, educated (Convent) Confirmed and married according to Roman Catholic doctrine, and to an extent was expected to 'follow the fleet' - quite naturally - why wouldn't I?

 

I even baptised and educated my two daughters through the Catholic faith (They went to Diocesan schools) and became a parent Governor for 4 years at their Primary School (This is all in the UK, so some terms may not be familiar to you if you're not British!).

 

Yet through all my years in this particular calling, through everything I had learnt, absorbed, been shown, taught or instructed in - I was constantly aware of a small, but significant nagging doubt:

 

I couldn't bring myself to believe a word of it.

 

It all meant nothing to me.

Nothing resonated. Nothing 'held my attention' or was in any way meaningful to me.

I felt tremendous guilt at times, because after so long, it stood to reason that I SHOULD believe something: I should have had faith, I should have been devoted.

 

But even though I really had no definitive negative experiences, or influences throughout that time, (Although trust me, some nuns have serious issues and can be bitches!) nothing clicked.

 

I was always aware of this uneasy feeling of simply going through the motions.

 

Then, one day, (1992) my Roman Catholic mother (of all people) sent me a book.

A Buddhist book. With a note.

 

"I thought you might like to read this, it's very interesting."

 

BOOM.

 

Every single word I read, had a massive impact, resonated, had meaning and hit me square between the eyes.

I felt as if this book had been written with the sole purpose of my reading it - it had been published exclusively for me.

I began to highlight all the passages I found instructive - but gave up.

There was more highlighted than not, and truly, the book began to look ridiculous....

 

The transition from Catholicism was gradual, but finally, a few years later,(1999) I personally stepped off the last stepping stone, onto 'dry land' and committed myself to Buddhism.

[CompleteFailure]

These dumpers never left the relationship with the express intention of hurting the dumpee.

 

They were in a "What's in it for me?" frame of mind - not a "I'm getting out and I really hope this hurts you bad" frame of mind.

 

So that means their keeping positive karma because their actions and intentions from their manifested thoughts weren't negative?

 

Now: people say hurtful things and do hurtful things, in such situations, as a form of self-defence mechanism....by behaving in a cruel fashion, they build an armour for themselves, in a way, to prevent themselves caring too much, or being to hurt by their own actions and decisions....

 

So in these cases people would be building up negative karma, even though it might be out of self-defense? That really forces one to be self aware and in control of their thoughts/actions at all times. You don't want to accidentally mess your own karma and have vipaka come get you, lol.

 

And whatever a person (Dumper OR Dumpee) DOES during this difficult time, is Karma. Whatever course of action they decide to follow, whatever they choose to express, or manifest, is their Karma.

It's not 'what they had coming'.... It's what they create due to external circumstances and experiences....

 

We want to blame so much of our own suffering on the dumper but all they want is to be happy for themselves, like us. Only they choose to do it by taking action for themselves and trying to be positive in their life. While we sit, mope, devise plans to take away that happiness from them just so we can become happy ourselves... Than we talk about karma but in reality we're the ones with all the perpetual negativity. This is eye opening and extremely saddening.

[TaraMaiden]

So that means their keeping positive karma because their actions and intentions from their manifested thoughts weren't negative?

 

Not necessarily....

Every action is one of three: Negative, Positive or neutral.

Simply because they weren't deliberately setting out to hurt you, doesn't mean that they weren't 'deliberately' doing something.

Whatever we do Intentionally - is Karma. It may not have been intentionally hurtful, but it may still have negative consequences.

 

I drive my car at someone.

I realise I am angry with them, but actually, I don't really want to hurt them.

I swerve.

I hit a fence and demolish someone's garden.

 

All that has consequence.

Because Karma begins with thinking......

 

 

So in these cases people would be building up negative karma, even though it might be out of self-defense? That really forces one to be self aware and in control of their thoughts/actions at all times. You don't want to accidentally mess your own karma and have vipaka come get you, lol.

 

Bolded bit:

You've hit the nail on the head.

 

This, in Buddhism, is what we refer to as 'being Mindful'.

When we say 'watch it!' - we mean ALL of it.

Be considerate - in what you think, in what you say and in what you do.....

 

All Karma can be counteracted, to a certain extent.

 

About that fence I demolished and the garden I destroyed.

 

I can either say sorry, but simply let my Insurance company sort it, or I can go to the house-owner, apologise profusely, and tell them whatever it takes to put it right, I will do it.

Don't bother sending me a bill - I will take care of everything personally, to make amends - name it - I'll do it.

 

That's better Positive Karma than just shrugging it off as a sad consequence of a lost temper....

 

 

We want to blame so much of our own suffering on the dumper but all they want is to be happy for themselves, like us. Only they choose to do it by taking action for themselves and trying to be positive in their life. While we sit, mope, devise plans to take away that happiness from them just so we can become happy ourselves... Than we talk about karma but in reality we're the ones with all the perpetual negativity. This is eye opening and extremely saddening.

 

Why is it saddening?

It should be an absolute joy - a 'lightbulb' moment!

 

Suddenly we see it clearly - happiness, contentment and personal peace begins with ourselves - our exes may be screwed up - but we see clearly how - and why - this has all come about - and we can accept it as something that just happens - and rise above it!

 

To have a realisation of this kind is actually extremely 'character-building'.

We 'get it'.

And by getting it - we actually enable ourselves to digest matters more maturely.....

 

we have the ability - and perfect, golden opportunity - to Transform.

 

That's a pretty big moment, right there.....

Edited May 4, 2013 by TaraMaiden

[Eve]

What you stated is wrong btw. I don't know why reported my posts.

 

I added it to my favourites page. HIGHLY enlightening reading. It is good to have a full, historical perspective of buddhism in it's correct context.

 

It was not a wasted effort.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[TaraMaiden]

Well thank you so much, Eve. That's really kind of you to comment.

 

Bless you.

 

[Eve]

Well thank you so much, Eve. That's really kind of you to comment.

 

Bless you.

 

 

I was responding to the other poster, whose message was deleted. Not sure why the mods chose to delete it. Maybe it was because it was just notes from text without opinion?

 

Not sure.

 

Take care,

Eve x