Sun Devil Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 So far, no one has proven god. When I ask a religious person for any evidence, all they tell me is to read the bible or to have faith. Faith and feelings are not proof. The bible is nothing but a book which also contradicts itself. I do not understand how anyone can blindly follow religion of any kind, not just christianity. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
shiver23 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I agree with you, and I was raised in a Christian home. However, the belief in a higher power, something outside of ourselves (fate, destiny, God, karma); it's all about making sense of life. Most people who follow religion believe they have "proof" (yes even scientific proof) that backs their beliefs. It's how dogma forms. Also, you're probably going to get some backlash on this thread. There are quite a few religious people here. I'm an agnostic atheist, but that's just me. Link to post Share on other sites
Poppy fields Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I tried hard to believe there was a god. But in the end, I could not commit to something that I truly did not believe existed. I am very comfortable with my decision. I feel less anxiety and worry that I felt trying to prove there was something I should be doing, or believing, to be a good person. Now, I just kick ass daily and love people as much as I can. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I am not a Christian, but I am an occultist. I have experienced and seen things for which there are no scientific explanations, but that does not diminish their impact or existence to me. I imagine "god" is the same for others who bend that way. I'm not one, but just because something cannot be explained scientifically YET, does not necessarily mean it does not exist. We are still learning how to scientifically discover all sorts of things. Consider the fact that hundreds of years ago, there was no way to determine the existence of things like DNA or germs. However, we know NOW that they exist: Did they not exist before they could be scientifically explained? 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I don't know who or what god is but I do believe there are powers and forces in this universe that are beyond human understanding. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Did you know that some mathematicians have done calculations on the probability of our existence coming from intelligent design? And they have determined that the likelihood of our existence through intelligent design is astronomical. One of my close relatives is a mathematician/statistician. He's also a Christian. I've seen and experienced so many miracles in my own life and in the lives of people I know personally who are Christians, as the result of prayer. There is no way I could believe that there is no God. There is proof enough for me, but for some, no amount of proof will be enough. They could have God standing in front of them and they would rationalize that they are just hallucinating. To some who have a closed mind and a closed heart, no amount of proof will be enough. 10 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 So far, no one has proven god. When I ask a religious person for any evidence, all they tell me is to read the bible or to have faith. Faith and feelings are not proof. The bible is nothing but a book which also contradicts itself. I do not understand how anyone can blindly follow religion of any kind, not just christianity. God's purpose with earth is to create from it a new race to whom he will give the inheritance of his kingdom. He has planned for this new race to be born of the spirit, not born of the flesh. The natural man demands natural proof because his world is natural. The spiritual man uses faith to believe because "faith is the belief in things unseen" (Hebrews 11:1). The fact that you say there is not proof of God is less a reflection of God's non-existence than it is of your own naturalness and blindness to the spirit. If you were "born of the spirit" (as Christ said) you would not demand such proof, but would rather judge things with a spiritual eye and see that Christ is the Son of God. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
shiver23 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 And... here... we .... go! :3 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Most people I know don't follow their religion literally. Except for the verses about financial blessing and "God's favor". (Sarcasm, of course.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 So far, no one has proven god. When I ask a religious person for any evidence, all they tell me is to read the bible or to have faith. Faith and feelings are not proof. The bible is nothing but a book which also contradicts itself. I do not understand how anyone can blindly follow religion of any kind, not just christianity. nobody has proof that an egg came first or a chicken came first........nobody seems to really care what came first...all that matters is they exist....as many choose to believe god exists.....what you choose to believe has to be on you....that's faith...having proof on something you cannot see.. you believe there is gravity...(an invisible tasteless force field of pressure)...because you were told that is what holds us to this earth..who decided that was gravity ...just a human person decided to call it that, now all humanity go around knowing it is gravity.. there are thousands of books about gravity to read up on it...just like the bible is a manual to read up on god...what maKES the bible any different to any other book written by a human such as a science journal per say....it is inspired of god and godly principals...some people choose to believe them without proof undeniable.......i believe in gravity....i believe in god...I knwo there is gravity....and i know there is god.....deb 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Feelin Frisky Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 The dismissive line I often encounter is "one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god". That is such an easy evasion to do nothing when evidence abounds--absolutely abounds that there is no divine intervention of any kind. And if there is no super-natural intervention into the nature which keeps the universe in motion there might as well be no god because prayers go nowhere accept into the local air one mutters their mumbo jumbo into. Believing that there is a god or some force of super nature that monitors your thoughts and keeps score is so close to a dozen symptoms of mental illness that it's safe to assume one is entertaining some product OF mental illness when engaging that kind of thinking one's self. It is simply so close to narcissism, ego-centrism, anthropocentrism etc to not be a dangerous way to delude one's self. Why should anyone have to disprove something which shows no evidence whatsoever of being anything other than a primitive human idea of how to explain things as yet unexplained by science? And evidence abounds that where religious zealtry goes, so goes murder and mayhem. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 So far, no one has proven god. When I ask a religious person for any evidence, all they tell me is to read the bible or to have faith. Faith and feelings are not proof. The bible is nothing but a book which also contradicts itself. I do not understand how anyone can blindly follow religion of any kind, not just christianity. Hey SD:), I haven't seen any scientific evidence that the God of Christianity doesn't exist. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Hey SD:), I haven't seen any scientific evidence that the God of Christianity doesn't exist. Yes, pureinheart, but the burden of proof is on YOU, blah blah blah. You know why? Because exceptional claims demand exceptional evidence, blah blah blah. And also because atheism is the norm, of course, so therefore any deviation from atheism is "exceptional", blah blah blah. Been there, done that 1000 times over. This whole proof game is a smokescreen for people to continue in disbelief while feeling justified. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 The dismissive line I often encounter is "one can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god". That is such an easy evasion to do nothing when evidence abounds--absolutely abounds that there is no divine intervention of any kind. And if there is no super-natural intervention into the nature which keeps the universe in motion there might as well be no god because prayers go nowhere accept into the local air one mutters their mumbo jumbo into. Believing that there is a god or some force of super nature that monitors your thoughts and keeps score is so close to a dozen symptoms of mental illness that it's safe to assume one is entertaining some product OF mental illness when engaging that kind of thinking one's self. It is simply so close to narcissism, ego-centrism, anthropocentrism etc to not be a dangerous way to delude one's self. Why should anyone have to disprove something which shows no evidence whatsoever of being anything other than a primitive human idea of how to explain things as yet unexplained by science? And evidence abounds that where religious zealtry goes, so goes murder and mayhem. Agnosticism It is very good for a man to talk about what he does not understand; as long as he understands that he does not understand it. Agnosticism (which has, I am sorry to say, almost entirely disappeared from the modern world) is always an admirable thing, so long as it admits that the thing which it does not understand may be much superior to the mind which does not understand it. A Handful of Authors. p.163. quote g.k. chesterton 3 Link to post Share on other sites
pie2 Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I like this story: Lone Ranger and Tonto The Lone Ranger and Tonto are camping in the desert, set up their tent, and are asleep. Some hours later, The Lone Ranger wakes his faithful friend. "Tonto, look up and tell me what you see." Tonto replies, "Me see millions of stars". "What does that tell you?" asks The Lone Ranger. Tonto ponders for a minute. "Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo. Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three. Theologically, it's evident the Lord is all powerful and we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What does it tell you, Kemo Sabi?" The Lone Ranger is silent for a moment, then speaks. "Tonto, you Dumb Hoss, someone has stolen our tent." Read more about missing the obvious here. ;) 2 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Agnosticism It is very good for a man to talk about what he does not understand; as long as he understands that he does not understand it. Agnosticism (which has, I am sorry to say, almost entirely disappeared from the modern world) is always an admirable thing, so long as it admits that the thing which it does not understand may be much superior to the mind which does not understand it. A Handful of Authors. p.163. quote g.k. chesterton G.K. Chesterton was the man. He was one of C.S. Lewis' favorite authors. In fact, C.S. Lewis at one point called "Everlastin Man", by Chesterton, his favorite and most influencial book. Chesterton would also add that agnosticism is okay as long as a person is truly seeking and not just floating around in a spiritual la-la land where they never examine the end results of any particular philosophy. He would say if a person is Buddhist, for example, to be an all-out Buddhist and fully examine the beliefs, taking them to their logical endpoints and seeing the finality of where that system takes you. He stated that it's God's purpose to steer us in the direction of truth. Our only role is to seek with a sincere heart. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 So far, no one has proven god. When I ask a religious person for any evidence, all they tell me is to read the bible or to have faith. Faith and feelings are not proof. The bible is nothing but a book which also contradicts itself. I do not understand how anyone can blindly follow religion of any kind, not just christianity. If interested... Scientific Evidence for the Christian Faith - Hugh Ross, PhD - YouTube 3 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 If interested... Scientific Evidence for the Christian Faith - Hugh Ross, PhD - YouTube TFW, YouTube links are not admissable as evidence, remember? Link to post Share on other sites
TheFinalWord Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 (edited) TFW, YouTube links are not admissable as evidence, remember? That's cool. There are many atheistic resources available which he has probably already reviewed. Hugh Ross did his post-doc at Caltech studying quasars (youngest to ever achieve director of observations at royal astronomical society of Canada) and took classes from Carl Sagan. Pretty smart guy that is familiar with both sides of the argument has some alternative opinions from a Christian perspective that are interesting to consider. But I'm not going to argue about it haha if someone wants all sides, they can watch (or better yet buy a book or two of his; some of his books are hard to follow b/c he gets into technical aspects of astrophysics). There is also an organization, Biologos, which considers theistic evolution that started by Francis Collins, director of US National Institutes of Health (major academic grant funding organization). Variety of opinions to consider. If SD is really interested in all sides he can study those. Home | BioLogos Edited May 7, 2013 by TheFinalWord 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Did you know that some mathematicians have done calculations on the probability of our existence coming from intelligent design? And they have determined that the likelihood of our existence through intelligent design is astronomical. I don't know what calculation you mean, but this isn't anything accepted by the scientific community through the peer review process, which is how science works. Some guy says he calculated something, means nothing. Show me a paper published in a mainstream journal. He's also a Christian. Uh huh. Link to post Share on other sites
Feelin Frisky Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Agnosticism It is very good for a man to talk about what he does not understand; as long as he understands that he does not understand it. Agnosticism (which has, I am sorry to say, almost entirely disappeared from the modern world) is always an admirable thing, so long as it admits that the thing which it does not understand may be much superior to the mind which does not understand it. A Handful of Authors. p.163. quote g.k. chesterton More of the same evasive dismissiveness. Kill the man so the myth can carry on unassailed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I am not a Christian, but I am an occultist. Can you explain what that means? I have experienced and seen things for which there are no scientific explanations, but that does not diminish their impact or existence to me. Would you care to elaborate. This isn't meant as a challenge. I'm just curious. I imagine "god" is the same for others who bend that way. I'm not one, but just because something cannot be explained scientifically YET, does not necessarily mean it does not exist. In fact the subject of "God" is not even within the domain of science. Unless a hypothesis can be tested, it isn't something that science can address. As much as it frustrates me to see science distorted by those seeking to confirm personal beliefs, it is also frustrating to see science used as some kind of argument against the existence of a god, whatever that might mean. All that can be said is that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of a god. I too have experienced a few things that seem to go beyond that which we can explain with science. As you say, that doesn't make it magic, just a mystery. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 More of the same evasive dismissiveness. Kill the man so the myth can carry on unassailed. But yet, you yourself dismiss what was written as dismissiveness...feeling superior somewhat that you are correct......agency is a wonderful thing that man has...to dismiss or embrace this proven fact man alone....is inferior........ i choose to believe that......deb 5 Link to post Share on other sites
M30USA Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 But yet, you yourself dismiss what was written as dismissiveness...feeling superior somewhat that you are correct......agency is a wonderful thing that man has...to dismiss or embrace this proven fact man alone....is inferior........ i choose to believe that......deb You bring up a good point. It can even be argued, biblically, that pride (or lack of humility) is the single biggest hindrance to receiving truth from God. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Sun Devil Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 Pride also can hinder science. But you cant dispute that science accomplished a lot whereas faith has not. I have not seen any statistical evidence of a god, but there is evidence of gravity, laws of physics, chemistry, evolution, ect. With god, there is not proof whatsoever. The bible could have been used to scam people. How many institutions of religion are corrupt? I think that God was invented to scam people or because people want to believe that there is an afterlife, but cant handle the realities of a permanent death. Link to post Share on other sites
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