Attraction isn't relevant for friendships

[Emilia]

Most people don't ask how many friends another person has. Unless an indivdual is super weird, nobody is going to assume that they don't have any friends.

it's easier to tell than you think. There is no need to ask.

[somedude81]

Women are very perceptive. We can tell a lot more than you think.

 

I know a guy about your age, cute face, really hot body, on the shorter side (but about my husband's height), and sooo shy with women. I'm married, and I've given him that pep talk before. He's never told me he's insecure. He just doesn't make a move like all the other guys do. He sits back and watches and waits for certain signs that never come. Everyone can see it.

How would you describe his shyness? Does he socialize with women or is he just afraid to ask them out?

 

As soon as I walk into my salsa class, I immediately go over to the group of girls I talk to every morning, sit on the floor with them and start talking. I have no problem talking to other women as well. Last week I invited a bunch of girls from the class to go to a salsa club with me. If a girl is standing by herself without a partner, I'd run all the way across the room to ask them to dance.

 

I wouldn't describe myself at all as shy. But I hate asking girls out. Up until I ask someone out, I can keep pretending that she likes me. Once the rejection comes, reality is thrust in my face. I dislike myself enough already, I don't need girls telling me that they dislike me too.

[Els]

 

It's been a little over a year that I had somebody I would call a friend. And yes we did spend a lot of time together off campus. Just in case you were wondering, yes it was a girl and yes I did like her. But that doesn't change the fact that we considered each other to be friends.

 

You lost all interest in being 'friends' with her once you made a move on her and it was rejected.

 

I'm really not sure that counts as friends, SD.

[clia]

Why do you think not having friends now = I've never had any friends?

 

I referred to the ability to develop and maintain friendships. I acknowledge that friends will drift in and out of your life. But most people in their early 30s have at least a few close friends, some of whom they have known for 10-20 years. That you have no friends at all right now is indicative of your inability to maintain friendships, for whatever reason.

 

's been a little over a year that I had somebody I would call a friend. And yes we did spend a lot of time together off campus. Just in case you were wondering, yes it was a girl and yes I did like her. But that doesn't change the fact that we considered each other to be friends.

 

Is it true that you stopped being friends with her after you asked her out and she rejected you?

 

Why? How is making guy friends more similar to dating than making female friends.

 

You don't have either, so what difference does it make? Making friends with females in the hope that they will someday have sex with you doesn't count as real friendship. Again, it goes to your ability to make connections with other people, to interact with other people on more than a superficial level, to be a person who other people want to spend time with and be around, etc. Can't you see how that is similar to dating?

 

Most people don't ask how many friends another person has. Unless an indivdual is super weird, nobody is going to assume that they don't have any friends. There is no reason I couldn't get through at least a few dates before a woman starts to question me about my friends.

 

Are you cold approaching women? I was under the impression that you were mainly talking to girls in your classes, and then asking them out. So, by the time you asked them out, you weren't a complete stranger. You are correct that if you approach and ask out a stranger, she probably won't know you don't have any friends. But again, you inability make and maintain friendships is likely tied to some aspect of your personality that may in fact be creepy, off putting, weird, or otherwise unappealing. I'm truly not trying to be a jerk about this, but I really can't understand how you don't see any correlation between making and keeping friends and trying to land a date.

 

Why would I want to talk to them over anyone else in the class? In a room full of pretty girls, it makes no sense to try and talk to the only girls I'm not attracted to.

 

I'm not saying you have to ignore everyone else in the class. But see, your prior statements that you befriend girls based on their personality is complete BS. You only want to be friends with girls you are attracted to, in the ultimate hope that maybe they will go out on a date with you. That is your end goal, and you say it over and over again in this post. That isn't having true female friends -- that is being the guy who is hanging around hoping for scraps.

 

There is nothing I could possibly gain by talking to them that I couldn't get from somebody else more attractive.

 

How do you know that? So the only value you see in women is how attractive they are? You don't see any value in finding out more about a woman on a friendship level?

 

You're jumping to conclusions. I'm not going to go into reasons why I like interaction with women beyond the desire to sleep with them.

 

You say over and over again that you don't see the point of platonic friendships with women if you aren't attracted to them. If you are just friends, why do you have to be attracted to them? Can't you see how you are contradicting yourself? I mean, look, it's fine if you are only making friends with women to have sex with them, but at least own it.

 

Do you think the girl in my class I had emailed thinks I want to sleep with her? If she does, do you believe she cares?

 

I don't know based upon the small amount of information you posted. Depending on how you acted around her and the context of your e-mail, she might. Does she care? Probably not. It's clear she isn't interested in you.

 

A woman with any level of common sense should understand that the vast majority of men she interacts with want to sleep with her.

 

This just isn't true at all. At all. It might be true for you, but you are definitely an outlier in the world of men.

 

You're getting confused.

 

Yes, indeed. You confuse me!

 

No I don't have any female friends right now. I have specifically chosen to not have any female friends. I have spent far too much time in platonic only friendships with women and have never dated anyone.

 

Because these "platonic only" friendships were only "platonic" from the woman's point of view. From your point of view they were "I hope she has sex with me someday" friendships. You do have something to gain by being friends with women you aren't interested in -- insight into why you are having such a hard time getting a date. Women who know you and interact with you can help you with this problem. I mean, what you are doing is obviously not working.

 

It's extremely frustrating for me to spend time alone with a woman and then go home alone.

 

A true sign that you weren't engaging in a true friendship. All you cared about was what you thought you might get out of it someday.

 

Just because a man wants to sleep with a woman, does not mean that the possibility of sex is the only reason he interacts with her.

 

Then why can't you have true, platonic friendships without feeling hurt at the end of the day that you are going home alone? It may not be the only reason, but it is the primary reason for you.

 

You seem to have a very narrow view of men if you truly believe what you said.

 

I don't at all have a narrow view of men. In fact, I fully believe that men are capable of being friends with women without wanting to have sex with them. I do believe you have a narrow view because you don't believe that.

 

As long as I don't have actual feelings for a girl, I will still be friends with a girl even if I know we will never have sex.

 

That's obviously never happened, though, since you have no friends right now, female or otherwise.

[somedude81]

You lost all interest in being 'friends' with her once you made a move on her and it was rejected.

 

I'm really not sure that counts as friends, SD.

Wrong.

Is it true that you stopped being friends with her after you asked her out and she rejected you?

Nope.

 

I asked her out within a couple months of meeting her. And we were friends for almost two years after that.

 

I don't want to go into more details about that girl, but she is the primary reason why I no longer want to be friends with girls I could be interested in. The straw that broke the camels back.

Edited May 9, 2013 by somedude81

[somedude81]

OP, I think the responses you're getting reflect two completely different things: you are talking about, plain and simple, attracting women. And you're right - having friends or not having friends has no affect on attracting women per se.

And that's the point I'm trying to bring across.

 

That being said, a lot of people here are going a step further than just attracting women, and that is actually being in a relationship with a woman.

Right now I can't imagine being in a relationship. It's a fantasy. So it doesn't compute when people tell me that certain things are important for relationships. I'm still struggling to get first and second dates.

 

For me the "red flag" is not the fact that you don't have any close friends, it's the fact that you don't care that you don't have friends and aren't willing to do (or actually want to do) anything to change it.

I do care that I don't have guy friends and I have tried to change it. Though I want a girlfriend a billion percent more than I want a guy friends so I don't put in too much effort in trying to make guy friends. I have many years of experience of having a group of guy friends but no girlfriend, and I was miserable.

 

Trying to make guy friends I joined the video game and anime clubs, flag football and soft-ball on campus teams and tried to hang out with various guys I met in group projects once the assignment was done. Once a guy turns me down or blows me off, I'm not going to keep trying to be his friend.

For most humans, human connection is literally what it's all about - whether it be romantic relationships or platonic relationships. That's it. We're born, we die. Connecting with people is what makes it all worthwhile.

 

Also, men (like you) tend to focus on more superficial qualities like looks when it comes to wanting a relationship. Women also care about looks, but tend to be more concerned about deeper qualities; like the ability to connect to another human being. You can see from the responses that the women are trying desperately to try to explain how important it is to make those deep connections with other people. You aren't buying it because you are focused on the attraction part of the equation.

I know connections are important. But as I said a million times on this forum, I'm trying to get into a relationship. And for a relationship, attraction is number one. I can make platonic connections with women but I end up wanting more. Everybody knows that a guy can't friendly a girl into wanting to date him. Yes I have had deep personal connections with a few girls, and in the end the friendship always feel apart because I had developed strong feelings. Those girls may or may not have been my type.

The key (in my opinion) to attracting women is in understanding that they want that connection and bridging that gap. That takes something called empathy. That is what people talk about when they say you can't see things from another persons perspective. You can't understand that women struggle in dating; or that even very good looking women can struggle (oh! the blasphemy!!). Again it takes empathy and you seem to lack it. There is a great deal of literature on empathy and some people think you're born with it and some people think you can learn it. Regardless, it would be in your best interest to look into it and see if you can develop empathy. Then make friends. Then maybe get a girlfriend.

How can I demonstrate empathy to a girl I only talk to for 5 minutes a day, twice a week that would affect her decision to go out with me?

[ThaWholigan]

Why are you guys even trying?

 

This is not going to go anywhere........

 

I'm not investing anything with my interactions unless I'm trying to accomplish some goal. I'm more than capable of interacting with women and just having fun. But my problem is that when I soley have those interactions, I always go home alone.

 

Exactly - there's a goal. There shouldn't be a "goal" or at least it shouldn't be one that takes any emotional energy early on.

[somedude81]

Exactly - there's a goal. There shouldn't be a "goal" or at least it shouldn't be one that takes any emotional energy early on.

Of course there is a goal!

 

If I don't go out of my way try to flirt and ask out girls, do you think they are going to come on to me?

[ThaWholigan]

Of course there is a goal!

 

If I don't go out of my way try to flirt and ask out girls, do you think they are going to come on to me?

That's one of the many reasons at the moment why you suck at this. It's a goal, looking for the result of a woman being your GF, "going out of your way" to "try" to flirt - your words betray you......it's synonymous with those who say that it's so much work and effort just to get a girl.

 

Either way, I'm beginning to believe that you will never get it, you just don't understand. I'm bowing out of this one.....

[xxoo]

How would you describe his shyness? Does he socialize with women or is he just afraid to ask them out?

 

As soon as I walk into my salsa class, I immediately go over to the group of girls I talk to every morning, sit on the floor with them and start talking. I have no problem talking to other women as well. Last week I invited a bunch of girls from the class to go to a salsa club with me. If a girl is standing by herself without a partner, I'd run all the way across the room to ask them to dance.

 

I wouldn't describe myself at all as shy. But I hate asking girls out. Up until I ask someone out, I can keep pretending that she likes me. Once the rejection comes, reality is thrust in my face. I dislike myself enough already, I don't need girls telling me that they dislike me too.

 

He talks to women, too. But his conversation style is very timid compared to the other guys. He doesn't flirt, but he gazes too long. He doesn't do well with group conversation, but only one-on-one, even if we are sitting in a group and everyone else is talking. In the group situation, he is the quietest one there. Literally quiet in voice, as well as talking the least with the whole group. One-on-one, he will talk forever.

 

If I had to give one word, I'd just describe him as uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable for him. So, as a married woman (my H is right there), I will notice his muscles and comment on his abs ("Looking good!"). But that just results in those too-long gazes across the table.....not what I intended.....

[xxoo]

That's one of the many reasons at the moment why you suck at this. It's a goal, looking for the result of a woman being your GF, "going out of your way" to "try" to flirt - your words betray you......it's synonymous with those who say that it's so much work and effort just to get a girl.

 

Who is right. If you could just enjoy the moment, savor the joy of flirting with a woman and listening to her laugh, without needing it to go farther with that woman, you would have a lot more success. You'd relax, flirt a whole lot more (for the sheer joy of flirting), and it would naturally result in sexual tension some of the time.

[somedude81]

Who is right. If you could just enjoy the moment, savor the joy of flirting with a woman and listening to her laugh, without needing it to go farther with that woman, you would have a lot more success. You'd relax, flirt a whole lot more (for the sheer joy of flirting), and it would naturally result in sexual tension some of the time.

And you think I haven't done that at all?

 

There have been many stretches in my life where I just enjoyed being around women and not try to pursue them.

 

Sexual tension occurred none of the time.

 

And now salsa is over and I'll never take another salsa class in college again. I didn't ask out anybody. I just felt like none of the girls I was interested in even gave a damn about me. One girl almost seemed to avoid eye contact when I was standing right next to her.

 

I'm so lonely if feels like it's killing me. Right now it feels like I've been cursed with the desire to be in a relationship and have intimate contact with women and not being able to make it happen. If I could be satisfied with just being friends with girls, I'd be a much happier person.

[xxoo]

And you think I haven't done that at all?

 

There have been many stretches in my life where I just enjoyed being around women and not try to pursue them.

 

Sexual tension occurred none of the time.

 

And now salsa is over and I'll never take another salsa class in college again. I didn't ask out anybody. I just felt like none of the girls I was interested in even gave a damn about me. One girl almost seemed to avoid eye contact when I was standing right next to her.

 

I'm so lonely if feels like it's killing me. Right now it feels like I've been cursed with the desire to be in a relationship and have intimate contact with women and not being able to make it happen. If I could be satisfied with just being friends with girls, I'd be a much happier person.

 

No, I don't think you've done that. I think you talk to women, joke with them, but not flirt with them early and often, pushing the envelope bit by bit to see how far you can take things with each woman (for the joy of seeing her reaction).

[tbf]

No, I don't think you've done that. I think you talk to women, joke with them, but not flirt with them early and often, pushing the envelope bit by bit to see how far you can take things with each woman (for the joy of seeing her reaction).

With somedude, it's either not at all or he goes too far, getting too familiar/crude, right out the gate.

 

What he needs to do is to learn to observe and attempt to understand the other person, rather than strictly focusing on his own internal mood and needs.

 

Edit - Using a PUA term, he needs to learn to calibrate.

[Treasa]

Wrong.

 

Nope.

 

I asked her out within a couple months of meeting her. And we were friends for almost two years after that.

 

I don't want to go into more details about that girl, but she is the primary reason why I no longer want to be friends with girls I could be interested in. The straw that broke the camels back.

 

I only made it as far as this post.

 

I love it (ok, I think it's rather unattractive) when someone says, "No. You're WRONG." My God, we can all have an opinion. Just because someone's opinion makes you feel threatened doesn't mean that person is wrong.

 

You have an attitude that isn't very warm or gracious or giving. Trying to get near you is akin to rubbing up against a cactus. No matter how careful people are, they're going to get stung.

 

I could, I guess, say that some people were ganging up against me in response to that YouTube video I posted yesterday. But I don't see it like that. It's OK if people want to disagree and argue. What other people do doesn't hurt ME as long as I am HAPPY with ME.

 

Your problem is that you are not happy with YOU. And only you can fix that.

[Treasa]

 

I'm so lonely if feels like it's killing me.

 

I'm single and I'm not lonely. Isn't it crazy that that's even possible?

 

I'm telling you, girls are not the answer. You don't even understand what the real question is.

[Treasa]

For a large chunk of my adult life I was really insecure. I was also outgoing and very giving, which saved me, but it didn't leave me with a lot of external happiness (which is an entirely different lecture).

 

I kept being sad and lonely and thinking, "If only people would like me. If only they would see how awesome I am. THEN I'd be happy."

 

It doesn't work that way. I get so much attention and kindness and affection from people now that it's sometimes stifling, and it's because I'm extremely positive, I'm always trying to make people's days brighter, and I'm happy. The happiness part has to come first. You aren't going to attract people with fake happiness. And yes, people can absolutely tell when it's genuine and when it's not.

 

I could lose everything I have TOMORROW if I just went back to being unhappy. Nothing about who I am or what I've done or what I look like would change.

 

Does it take a lot of work to actively choose to be happy? Yes, at times. Thankfully I am not a lazy person.

 

People aren't going to "realize" what's so great about you. People aren't going to go out of their way to be with you. You have to give them something they want. People want to be around other people who are happy. At least, if they're healthy they do.

[somedude81]

I only made it as far as this post.

 

I love it (ok, I think it's rather unattractive) when someone says, "No. You're WRONG." My God, we can all have an opinion. Just because someone's opinion makes you feel threatened doesn't mean that person is wrong.

What are you talking about? These aren't option questions. They are questions about something that happened. Questions that relate to a girl I had very strong feelings towards and who was an important part of my life for almost two years.

 

You lost all interest in being 'friends' with her once you made a move on her and it was rejected.

 

I'm really not sure that counts as friends, SD.

I wrote tons of posts about that girl. You weren't really around then.

 

Elwsyth saying that I lost all interest in being friends with that girl once she rejected me is flat out incorrect and it offended me.

 

Anybody who was fallowing my story back then would know that I remained friends with that girl for a long time. Either she is trying to pass off a lie as the truth or she doesn't remember. Either way she shouldn't have said what she did.

 

Hell, here is a thread I made about the girl. It has 1,000 posts and runs from July 2011 till the end of November. Elwsyth even has posts in that thread so it's completely false for her to claim that I didn't stay friends with her.

 

I was more explanatory to clia because she just seems to be repeating what she heard.

Edited May 9, 2013 by somedude81

[Els]

Yes, I stand corrected. You hung around after the first rejection because you still believed there was hope in getting her to like you.

 

When all hope was crushed (ie when she finally told you off at the end), you had no interest in her as a friend, anymore. You made a post about feeling like you wanted to make her cry. And yes, I'm certain about that one.

 

None of that still says, "Really friends" to me.

[somedude81]

Yes, I stand corrected. You hung around after the first rejection because you still believed there was hope in getting her to like you.

 

When all hope was crushed (ie when she finally told you off at the end), you had no interest in her as a friend, anymore. You made a post about feeling like you wanted to make her cry. And yes, I'm certain about that one.

 

None of that still says, "Really friends" to me.

She rejected me 3 or 4 times. She's the one who decided to kick me out of her life and ultimately end the friendship. I tried to make contact with her a few times after that but she would have none of it.

 

Yes her doing that made me very angry. Making her cry was the least of the things I wanted to do to her back then. No I didn't take any action with her at all and haven't even tried to talk to her in over a year and a half.

[somedude81]

No, I don't think you've done that. I think you talk to women, joke with them, but not flirt with them early and often, pushing the envelope bit by bit to see how far you can take things with each woman (for the joy of seeing her reaction).

While I do try to flirt with girls, most likely nothing I do is recognized as flirting. Either I'm just too subtle or I don't push things far enough.

 

Flirting is another thing that isn't relevant for friendships.

 

So I'm not physically attractive to women and I don't flirt in a way they can pick up on. And every girl I try to pursue either flatly rejects me, or ends up as a friend.

 

Story of my life.

[Els]

She rejected me 3 or 4 times. She's the one who decided to kick me out of her life and ultimately end the friendship. I tried to make contact with her a few times after that but she would have none of it.

 

Yes her doing that made me very angry. Making her cry was the least of the things I wanted to do to her back then. No I didn't take any action with her at all and haven't even tried to talk to her in over a year and a half.

 

Yes, because you had no interest in a friendship that wasn't ever going to be sexual. That's why you tried that many times while you were 'friends'. And that's why you desired to hurt her when she finally realized that you two could never just be friends and pulled the plug.

 

We could debate all we like about whether or not you two were truly 'friends', but let's accept that in the context of this thread, you haven't been making 'friends'. There was always a motive. That's why people are suggesting male friends, but that keeps going back to the same tired argument of 'why does it matter'?

[PJKino]

He talks to women, too. But his conversation style is very timid compared to the other guys. He doesn't flirt, but he gazes too long. He doesn't do well with group conversation, but only one-on-one, even if we are sitting in a group and everyone else is talking. In the group situation, he is the quietest one there. Literally quiet in voice, as well as talking the least with the whole group. One-on-one, he will talk forever.

 

If I had to give one word, I'd just describe him as uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable for him. So, as a married woman (my H is right there), I will notice his muscles and comment on his abs ("Looking good!"). But that just results in those too-long gazes across the table.....not what I intended.....

 

That's me im good at one on ones or in small groups but in large groups i tend to be more shy and get lost in the shuffle so to speak.

 

But theyres outoging people and quiet people introverts and extroverts not everyone is gonna be the life of the party and the center of attention people are different not everyone is a social butterfly.

 

You seem to think any man whos kinda quiet or laid back or a little passive there is something wrong with or is weird.

Edited May 10, 2013 by PJKino

[somedude81]

Yes, because you had no interest in a friendship that wasn't ever going to be sexual. That's why you tried that many times while you were 'friends'.

I kept trying because I had very strong feelings for her.

 

(Waits for rebuttal saying I only wanted sex or whatever you can come up with.)

 

And that's why you desired to hurt her when she finally realized that you two could never just be friends and pulled the plug.

I desired to hurt her because I was angry. I'm hardly the first person to wish ill of somebody they had strong feelings towards.

 

We could debate all we like about whether or not you two were truly 'friends',

There is no debate whether we were friends or not.

but let's accept that in the context of this thread, you haven't been making 'friends'.

 

There was always a motive. That's why people are suggesting male friends, but that keeps going back to the same tired argument of 'why does it matter'?

 

And no I will not accept that I have not been making friends. Such a claim is ridiculous.

 

Let me ask you this, do you believe that because a man desires to have sex with a women, he could never be her friend?

[xxoo]

Flirting is another thing that isn't relevant for friendships.

 

I disagree. If you are young and single, friends are a great place to practice flirting! It's a comfortable relationship, and you can push the envelope until she punches you in the arm and giggles, "knock it off!"

 

That's me im good at one on ones or in small groups but in large groups i tend to be more shy and get lost in the shuffle so to speak.

 

But theyres outoging people and quiet people introverts and extroverts not everyone is gonna be the life of the party and the center of attention people are different not everyone is a social butterfly.

 

You seem to think any man whos kinda quiet or laid back or a little passive there is something wrong with or is weird.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with him, or you. I'm just explaining why women aren't getting the sexy vibe from him.

 

Do you think there is something "wrong" with women who look past shy guys? Is there something "wrong" with men who look past fat women?