Attraction isn't relevant for friendships

[xxoo]

Exactly, matchmaker is a lot to ask, and only something I'd do for someone I know very well and can vouch for. This guy doesn't qualify on either account.

 

I have invited singles to the group, but I won't do much more than help facilitate a conversation. If the convo dies after I walk away, there is nothing more I can do.

[PJKino]

Exactly, matchmaker is a lot to ask, and only something I'd do for someone I know very well and can vouch for. This guy doesn't qualify on either account.

 

I have invited singles to the group, but I won't do much more than help facilitate a conversation. If the convo dies after I walk away, there is nothing more I can do.

 

Fair enough..so you dont even know that guy well maybe hes just not interested in the women around and thats why hes not flirting? maybe it has nothign to do with him being shy in a group setting

[xxoo]

Fair enough..so you dont even know that guy well maybe hes just not interested in the women around and thats why hes not flirting? maybe it has nothign to do with him being shy in a group setting

 

I know him well enough to know he is interested in the women.

That is not the same thing as knowing him well enough to vouch for him.

 

Everyone can see he is interested in the women. He simply needs to be bolder. Good things come to those who play the game. Nothing comes to those who sit on the sidelines.

 

.

Edited May 13, 2013 by xxoo
autocorrect

[PJKino]

I know him well enough to know he is interested in the women.

That is not the same thing as knowing him well enough to vouch for him.

 

Everyone can see he is interested in the women. He simply needs to be bolder. Good things come to those who play the game. Nothing comes to those who sit on the sidelines.

 

.

 

I hear you but for some of us its not as easy as sayign just go out and do it..anxiety and insecurity is hard to overcome and sometimes we try but its overwhelming..

[Woohoo]

To sum it up. Become an exciting dude. Cause that is what the women are comparing you to. At least any woman you would consider desirable demands this. Their are plenty of women (not attractive ones) who demand nothing from a man. Then again I demand more from them, just as they demand more from me, in the end it is cruel, but most men are boring. If you don't bring anything "exciting" then you are literally bringing NOTHING to a relationship but your d**k. It really is kinda sexist put that way. The modern "nice guy" would have been a great catch in the 1950s, when men wielded more societal power, but in today's competitive dating scene men don't support women in the same way. You need a new approach.

 

One way we men have it difficult is we chase, it is like putting on a play, that we are not allowed to be in the audience. Then again, when you become experienced you will find you can put the same challenges on women, and they will become nervous, and act exactly like you did when you were a "nice guy." You will also feel the attraction plummet as women begin begging for attention (some become downright hostile).

 

In fact, a "nice guy" is just code for boring.

 

Fortunately, for those of us who have figured it out, we have our choice of women. This makes it hard on "average" guys because we become the new standard. In the end I sum up the most important trait as "emotional intelligence." I never use the word "think", only "feel" when I deal with women. It is a stronger word, a more honest word, and one that requires you to take a stand. Learn to fight with feelings, not reason and you will be alright. Emotional honesty is way harder than you can imagine. Learn to LISTEN. If you are really serious the first step for someone in your situation is GET A THERAPIST. Therapy is a profession dedicated entirely to improving the clients emotional intelligence.

 

You remind me of myself in my early 20s (33 now) so hopefully I can help.

 

Hopefully what I posted can help you some. If you can use any of this I can put up more, pose specific questions for more specific help.

[somedude81]

I feel like I'm trying to entertain a child.

 

Are women really all about "here we are now, entertain us?"

 

So attraction is all about putting on a show. Just being me isn't good enough.

 

I do try to make girls laugh and have a good time but I guess I'm just not doing it big enough.

 

Since my looks are blah, my personality and humor is the only thing that can be used to attract women. I'm also struggling with long term depression and don't even think I can make my personality extreme enough so women won't get bored.

 

I appreciate the advice Woohoo. I just need to figure out how I can use it.

[TheGuard13]

It's not about being extreme, nor, for the most part, is it about putting on a show or pretending to be something you aren't. It's about being an interesting and sometimes entertaining person and being confident in who you are.

 

Being insecure and depressed and "trying" isn't interesting to most women...because guys like that are a dime a dozen. You have to stand out somehow. What can you provide for them and do with them that most other guys can't?

[SteveC80]

I feel like I'm trying to entertain a child.

 

Are women really all about "here we are now, entertain us?"

 

So attraction is all about putting on a show. Just being me isn't good enough.

 

I do try to make girls laugh and have a good time but I guess I'm just not doing it big enough.

 

Since my looks are blah, my personality and humor is the only thing that can be used to attract women. I'm also struggling with long term depression and don't even think I can make my personality extreme enough so women won't get bored.

 

I appreciate the advice Woohoo. I just need to figure out how I can use it.

 

In a way you do have to entertain more then a women,men in general are funnier and more entertaining then women, females are strictly nurturers they dont have the same sense of humor or comedic view on life as men thats why they find it so appealing

[KungFuJoe]

Woohoo,

 

Your intentions are good, but the reality is that people can't be someone they aren't. You don't just become "exciting"...especially when you have depression.

 

Somedude's problem is his depression. He needs to work on that, either through therapy or medication. Until he can get his depression under control, it's going to severely hamper his ability to attract the opposite sex.

[xxoo]

If you want to date a woman, you are already sexually interested in her. Yes, you need to stand out in some way to generate her sexual interest. Most women don't feel sexual interest for a big group of guys--just a few, and each for different reasons. You need to put yourself in that category somehow. If you think of that as unfair, your task will only be that much more difficult.

[Woohoo]

I feel like I'm trying to entertain a child.

 

Are women really all about "here we are now, entertain us?"

 

So attraction is all about putting on a show. Just being me isn't good enough.

 

I do try to make girls laugh and have a good time but I guess I'm just not doing it big enough.

 

Since my looks are blah, my personality and humor is the only thing that can be used to attract women. I'm also struggling with long term depression and don't even think I can make my personality extreme enough so women won't get bored.

 

I appreciate the advice Woohoo. I just need to figure out how I can use it.

 

Okay, let's chat for a bit and I'll try and articulate some useful information. Let me explain WHY I might be able to help.

 

A few years ago, I became severely depressed. I gained over 100 pounds, was broke, stopped playing music, falling apart. Well, I found out I had ADD at the age of 30, I briefly tried the meds but quickly realized that I had to deal with my emotional issues BEFORE going on the meds full time. So I began a Masters Degree in Mental Health Counseling. I did not finish, I got therapy and eventually got my life "together." Now I know my role, and my place. I have an insignificant low paying job, I play music, I party a lot, a lot of people know me, I've carved my body down/built it up, verging upon my first six pack abs. A lot of "Nice Guys" get pissed by the women that are with me, they label me a loser cause they have a better car, job, more money, "real careers" etc. Yet I get the women they want. They are angry cause it seems like I'm getting women wholesale when they can't get any woman at all that meets their criteria.

 

Depression. We HAVE to deal with this first. WHAT is depression. It is NOT sadness. Understand that clearly. Depression causes a limited emotional range, both in yourself and perceiving it in others. Depression MUST be dealt with. You see, women's signals are very nuanced, in a minute I'm going to explain a couple of areas that depression will kill your approach (it did mine). If you want to know what depression is like, or think you have it, look up the webcomic Hyperbole and a Half. Their are actually TWO comics they published on the web (free) and both are better descriptions than I could articulate.

 

The first thing ALL MEN need to learn to do if they are going to understand women is develop the ability to listen. You MUST have conversations where NOTHING you know is displayed, NO ADVICE is given and all you do is listen and then use "reflection" (say back what they said), Empathy (reflect back their feelings) and body language (nodding, giving back any emotion they give). Understand this is quite rare, and will give you tremendous insight. Have a conversation with someone you disagree with and use these techniques and never share your view, it is much more difficult to do BUT also very rewarding. Remember, a conversation is NEVER about being right or the "truth", or how things work, everything EVERYONE says all the time they feel is the truth, even when they lie. Treat it as such. This trait in itself does not build attraction but what it DOES do is provide a great ability to guide a conversation.

 

In fact here are two examples, too guide you along here is a video SHOWING the same person interviewed therapeutically in two different styles. One is passive and nice, the other is AGGRESSIVE and oozes machismo. Exact same skills with massively different emotions. This is a legendary video in therapeutic training, only one of which these skills are not attractive. The other is combative but in a follow-up recording "Gloria" admitted he was very masculine and attractive, believe me, Fritz Pearls does NOT look physically attractive. Anyway, given when this was recorded it is a shockingly good video. U tube "Gloria Albert Ellis" and "Gloria Fritz Perls." Fritz absolutely oozes machismo, and uses these skills in an attractive way. In a follow-up interview Gloria even admits attraction to Fritz. Ellis is liked, he is the "nice guy," great therapist but not useful in the seductive field.

 

 

 

Humor is important in attraction. But understand this clearly. NOT ALL HUMOR is good for attraction. Humor that does not work...sarcasm and self-deprecation. Sarcasm is a LIE by definition. It is rarely attractive in itself. Their are only a few situations you can get away with sarcasm, most guys can't. Self-deprecation, unless your rich, successful and KNOW your awesome (ala Jon Stewart) it is neither funny nor flattering.

 

So how will depression kill your humor? For one, people like to laugh, etc. so this is good. Ever seen a girl laugh at a joke that wasn't really funny because she liked someone? Yeah, that was because she liked them, it is also sincere.

 

This is a way to display confidence. When you have a GOOD joke, something that will play off the conversation and crack the other person up DO NOT use it. First go quiet, when the other person expects you to talk, the other person will briefly try and pick up the conversation. Nod and THEN use the joke. They will crack up. It will be funnier because their is more *tension.* *tension is your friend.* This comes across as very confident. Ever hear how it "just happened," that is because of moves like these. You took away the awkwardness and turned it into something joyous.

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg. If you are serious about getting better watch the videos above and mull over this for awhile. If you just wanna whine, the forum is here for that too.

[Woohoo]

Woohoo,

 

Your intentions are good, but the reality is that people can't be someone they aren't. You don't just become "exciting"...especially when you have depression.

 

Somedude's problem is his depression. He needs to work on that, either through therapy or medication. Until he can get his depression under control, it's going to severely hamper his ability to attract the opposite sex.

 

Agreed, that is addressed in my follow-up post.

[somedude81]

Okay, let's chat for a bit and I'll try and articulate some useful information. Let me explain WHY I might be able to help.

 

A few years ago, I became severely depressed. I gained over 100 pounds, was broke, stopped playing music, falling apart. Well, I found out I had ADD at the age of 30, I briefly tried the meds but quickly realized that I had to deal with my emotional issues BEFORE going on the meds full time. So I began a Masters Degree in Mental Health Counseling. I did not finish, I got therapy and eventually got my life "together."

Thanks for the awesome post.

 

This is the first thing I wanted to talk about.

 

How did you get your life together?

 

I've was in therapy for several years and my emotional issues are still pretty extreme. The older I get the worse they become. I have very little control of my temper and am prone to snapping.

 

I have considered medication and was actually on it for a couple of months. The problem is that I know why I am depressed and angry. It's not some biochemical issue.

 

Why were you depressed and what was the fix for you?

 

I'll talk about women in a bit.

[Woohoo]

Thanks for the awesome post.

 

This is the first thing I wanted to talk about.

 

How did you get your life together?

 

I've was in therapy for several years and my emotional issues are still pretty extreme. The older I get the worse they become. I have very little control of my temper and am prone to snapping.

 

I have considered medication and was actually on it for a couple of months. The problem is that I know why I am depressed and angry. It's not some biochemical issue.

 

Why were you depressed and what was the fix for you?

 

I'll talk about women in a bit.

 

Most of my issues became problems as they became cycles. Much like when I gained weight. I was eating to feel better about not being where I felt I should be in my life. Well, the eating made me fat, so I felt bad about eating. What did I do when I felt bad? I ate? ARGH!

 

That is a common issue in our society, basically a similar cycle to drug addiction.

 

Maybe it was horrible, but I started to admit what I wanted, what I am attracted too. Beyond women. I like ATTENTION. My whole life I was told this was bad. Still I pursued this in acceptable methods, work, playing music etc. When I admitted what I REALLY wanted, what I was taught be damned, then I began becoming whole. I sought out therapy to help. Change therapist till you find one that get's results btw.

 

When I started to realize that culture, and what I had been told to feel, what was acceptable and wasn't I started down the path to honesty. I started seeing my life for what it was, boring, and being bored is NOT acceptable. IT IS BORING. I WAS BORING BECAUSE IT WAS SAFE. I started labeling my feelings and emotions, found out their are tons of gradiations and ways to deal with them. Anger, loathing, hate etc. are all different emotions. Just like happiness, joy and contentment are all different. This opened my eyes to the fact that I sucked at experiencing emotions, and often lumped large groups of them together. This results in boring behavior and only limited emotional expressiveness. How can you react to three different experiences when they all get lumped into one emotion? I was too defensive, I let the culture that told me to sit down and shut up to sit me down and shut me up. Played by the rules and I just ended up miserable. I was miserable because my whole life was a lie.

 

Anything I have trouble with, now becomes a feedback mechanism. Not having luck with lades? Maybe I need to finish this project over here, take it off my mind. Eating too much? Maybe I'm stressed cause I haven't told someone something. As long as I'm willing to face the fear of breaking my routine and change something, eventually I change the right thing to get what I want. Often times something unrelated will snap the problem indirectly.

 

For me I came to understand that all things are systems. Including ourselves. If I want to change me change SOMETHING, then something else. Change everything until you get to where you want. You don't have to do it all at once, but always be changing something. And if you don't feel a certain level of discomfort, then it is NOT a real change.

 

Of course the REAL issue, the dirtiest underlying issue was shocking. You see, the reason I couldn't experience/label emotions? CONTROL. I had developed an almost robotic like personality at one point. This was because emotions made me "vulnerable," so instead I focused one what I SHOULD do, that which did NOT make me vulnerable. Sure I could talk from a position of well-thought superiority, but I couldn't communicate the emotional subtext, words really don't matter, and I lawyered every word to prevent vulnerability. In the end, it was giving up the need to control my feelings that set me free. Then my body language aligned, when I flirted I started expressing all kinds of emotions and the other person reciprocates, and when I stood up to someone I always won, because of honesty. A well thought out position always crumbles to a well-felt out position, as a well felt out position will always be more stinging.

 

Now when I have trouble, I LOOK for help. If looking for it makes me vulnerable, EVEN BETTER. I'm here to chat some and learn some, but I know that these conversations are limited, because I DO NOT FEEL VULNERABLE having them. Anything that is giving you trouble, turn it into a feedback mechanism and then push for change somewhere. If your scared change something else and many times the issue will work things out.

[SteveC80]

If you want to date a woman, you are already sexually interested in her. Yes, you need to stand out in some way to generate her sexual interest. Most women don't feel sexual interest for a big group of guys--just a few, and each for different reasons. You need to put yourself in that category somehow. If you think of that as unfair, your task will only be that much more difficult.

 

He needs to move on if he gets luekwarm interest right away..if shes not physically attracted then you cant just generate attraction most of the time.

 

His problem is he hasnt found a women physically attracted to him who hes approached once he finds a women physically attracted to him that hes attracted to and approaches his life will be much easier.

Edited May 15, 2013 by SteveC80

[Mme. Chaucer]

The solution really as I see it, is this:

 

-SD needs to get a job where he makes a lot of money.

-Wear and display lots of signs of wealth (fancy car, nice watches and suits).

-Women flock to him.

 

 

Women still might not flock to him. There are a lot of rich guys in the world for women who are only interested in that; it's still competitive.

 

Anyway, it's a lot of work, what you proposed. My idea: maybe he should just get a life and develop some social skills. See where that leads.

 

No, no, no, don't say it, SD:

 

how does having a life and social skills have anything to do with getting a girlfriend?

 

 

Right?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Thanks for the awesome post.

 

This is the first thing I wanted to talk about.

 

How did you get your life together?

 

I've was in therapy for several years and my emotional issues are still pretty extreme. The older I get the worse they become. I have very little control of my temper and am prone to snapping.

 

I have considered medication and was actually on it for a couple of months. The problem is that I know why I am depressed and angry. It's not some biochemical issue.

 

Why were you depressed and what was the fix for you?

 

I'll talk about women in a bit.

 

Thank you for an honest post here. I challenge your assurance that if only you had a girlfriend, all your issues would be resolved.

 

If you think about it, I'm sure you're aware that many, many relationships fail specifically because of someone's emotional issues and acting out (including at least 2 of my own). I would venture to guess that a goodly portion of those people believed, sincerely, that the relationship would be the "answer" for them. But they were wrong.

 

Truly, people want to get into relationships with healthy people. And intuition is a real thing - nobody has to be a mind reader to sense trouble.

[somedude81]

I didn't want to post in this thread till I was ready to fully adderss the posts in here, but something odd is happening. I'm probably way over-thinking this, the girl I mentioned ealier is trying to maintain contact. Frankly I was hoping we would go our separate ways after we last talked but she found me on Facebook and initiates messages. This is rather frustrating for me. If she were single, I would have asked her out long ago.

 

I'm not sure what to do. The angry/bitter side of me wants to tell her that I don't want to be just friends. The stupid/idealistic side wants to pursue her and get her to leave her boyfriend.

 

The smart thing is to just ignore her right?

[Teknoe]

I didn't want to post in this thread till I was ready to fully adderss the posts in here, but something odd is happening. I'm probably way over-thinking this, the girl I mentioned ealier is trying to maintain contact. Frankly I was hoping we would go our separate ways after we last talked but she found me on Facebook and initiates messages. This is rather frustrating for me. If she were single, I would have asked her out long ago.

 

I'm not sure what to do. The angry/bitter side of me wants to tell her that I don't want to be just friends. The stupid/idealistic side wants to pursue her and get her to leave her boyfriend.

 

The smart thing is to just ignore her right?

 

No, ignoring her would be the SAFE thing to do. You'd learn absolutely nothing by ignoring her.

 

Be her friend. But work on focusing on enjoying the friendship for what it is, rather than what it could be in your mind.

 

Just be chill, casual, and have fun. Who knows, knowing her could open more social doors and that's really never a bad thing.

 

For a guy stuck in the kind of rut that you are, the more social interaction you get, the better chance you'll have at forcing some kind of positive change. Staying isolated in your bubble is the safest and surest way to stagnate and eventually, crumble.

 

Reach back to her AS A FRIEND. And like woohoo said, seek therapy.

[Woohoo]

I didn't want to post in this thread till I was ready to fully adderss the posts in here, but something odd is happening. I'm probably way over-thinking this, the girl I mentioned ealier is trying to maintain contact. Frankly I was hoping we would go our separate ways after we last talked but she found me on Facebook and initiates messages. This is rather frustrating for me. If she were single, I would have asked her out long ago.

 

I'm not sure what to do. The angry/bitter side of me wants to tell her that I don't want to be just friends. The stupid/idealistic side wants to pursue her and get her to leave her boyfriend.

 

The smart thing is to just ignore her right?

 

The SMART thing to do is tell her THE TRUTH. Say, I'm attracted to you but your not single, so unless your relationships is changing I'm not gonna play like I'm just "another friend." I'm an adult and won't play some just friends game.

 

The HONEST side of you doesn't want to be friends. So don't. The answer to the friend zone is always NO. Got plenty of friends.

 

After reading Teknoe I must add that I'm not fully familiar with your situation. If you really are socially isolated than building a network of friends will help immensely. In fact, if you don't have some type of social status that is visible, my recommendation above can come across a bit A-holeish. Build a network so that when you meet women you can run around introducing them to people. So my advice above stands only if you want it. Get it or burn it, either way be done with it is kinda my belief when you are attracted, just don't dwell on it.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Woohoo

[sillyanswer]

I feel like I'm trying to entertain a child.

 

Are women really all about "here we are now, entertain us?"

 

Turn it around - is she going to want a second date if she's bored on the first? Dating is supposed to be enjoyable.

[tman666]

The SMART thing to do is tell her THE TRUTH. Say, I'm attracted to you but your not single, so unless your relationships is changing I'm not gonna play like I'm just "another friend." I'm an adult and won't play some just friends game.

 

The HONEST side of you doesn't want to be friends. So don't. The answer to the friend zone is always NO. Got plenty of friends.

 

QFT. SD, if you want anything to come out of this, this is the route you have to take. Even if she rejects you, it will be far less painful than hanging around, spending time and energy doing your best to "be her friend" (even though you want more), only to have her end up dating someone else.

 

She will respect you more if you're honest with your desires (without being crude of course). If you DO want to date this girl, yet continue with the pretense of just "being her friend", then who is being dishonest?

 

Of course, the other option is to decide in your heart of hearts that you're not attracted to her and do NOT want to date her, in which case, being friends is fine, in my humble opinion. Can't have it both ways though.

Edited May 16, 2013 by tman666

[somedude81]

I was actually thinking of telling her the truth but for some reason thought that it would be a horrible idea.

 

No, I don't have any interest in being her friend.

 

So I'm trying to think of the words that get my point across without sounding like a total jerk. I can use Wohoo's line as a base.

[tman666]

I was actually thinking of telling her the truth but for some reason thought that it would be a horrible idea.

 

No, I don't have any interest in being her friend.

 

So I'm trying to think of the words that get my point across without sounding like a total jerk. I can use Wohoo's line as a base.

 

I don't think you'll sound like a jerk, as long as you steer clear of the words "I don't want to be your friend". Just say something like, "hey, I think you're great and I'd love to take you on a date if you were single". You'll know from her reaction where it's going. If it doesn't head the way you want it to, just quietly distance yourself. It doesn't have to be an ultimatum.

[somedude81]

I don't think you'll sound like a jerk, as long as you steer clear of the words "I don't want to be your friend". Just say something like, "hey, I think you're great and I'd love to take you on a date if you were single". You'll know from her reaction where it's going. If it doesn't head the way you want it to, just quietly distance yourself. It doesn't have to be an ultimatum.

Thanks, that sounds a lot better.