No one ever started a war over Wicca

[M30USA]

You can't and never will be able to name one "atheocracy" because it doesn't exist.

 

So let me make sure I understand what you're saying.

 

We are comparing death tolls caused by religious versus non-religious (atheist) nations/rulers. You are attempting to show that all wars are religion-driven. When we try to tally up various dictators and the deaths they've inflicted, you categorize all of them as religious and claim there are zero atheist rulers/nations in the world.

 

Is this a correct summary of your position?

 

If so, then the question of who/what causes wars cannot exist. In order to compare things, you must have something to compare them to. If you are unwilling to consider atheism as a potential cause of wars, then you must identify at least one other potential cause other than religion. Failing to do so puts atheism in the position of being above fault and reproach, turning it into a phantom ideology which has direct effects on the world, yet cannot be accountable or identifiable as a negative cause of anything. This is extremely dangerous. I hope you understand. It's a recipe for tyranny, in itself.

[Otty]

I disagree witht he premise of this thread. Prior to the Christianization of Europe in the Dark Ages, many societies worshiped the pagan gods. Many wars were fought for Thor, 'Oden, Tiw, Frigg and others. The Romans always sacrificed at the Temple of Victory to give homage to Mars before beginning any campaign. Jesus, on the other hand, said that if a man strikes you on the cheek, then offer him the other. He also said that those who live by the sword shall die thereby. Finally, he said to love your neighbour as yourself which is the antithesis of going to war.

[M30USA]

Simply put, your entire argument is based on the assumption that non-christian, non-religious states are atheist by default. Not practicing something is not the same as not accepting its existence. Try again.

 

Atheism doesn't worship or serve any god, sure. But it's still built on doctrines and philosophies--most often secular humanism, in modern times. Now if you want to consider secular humanism a "religion", then I guess we will end our discussion on a fundamental difference of opinion as to what constitutes "religion".

 

As with all debate, all we can ever hope to do is come to a clarification (not agreement) about what the other person's opinion is and just leave it at that. I believe we've reached that point and I don't see any point in going further.

[M30USA]

In other words, you have no counter argument that actually defeats your opposition, and your presumptuous attempts at oversimplification by generalization have been called for what they are.

 

Got it.

 

No, it means that you don't read my posts. If you did, you wouldn't write what you just wrote.

 

So long and thanks for all the fish.

[BetheButterfly]

I disagree witht he premise of this thread. Prior to the Christianization of Europe in the Dark Ages,

 

The "Christianization of Europe" greatly disturbs me because it involved killing and conquering, and Jesus taught peace and love, not killing and conquering. I think a reason why so many people have a jaded view of Christianity today is because so many people who call themselves Christians have been violent, which is against Jesus' teachings.

 

many societies worshiped the pagan gods. Many wars were fought for Thor, 'Oden, Tiw, Frigg and others.

True.

 

The Romans always sacrificed at the Temple of Victory to give homage to Mars before beginning any campaign.

I think the Roman Empire had a key part in how many people think of Christianity today, since the Roman Empire stressed so much conquering other people groups that I think this "rubbed off" on Europe and people who called themselves Christians yet didn't follow Jesus Christ's teachings on loving one's enemies and neighbors.

 

Jesus, on the other hand, said that if a man strikes you on the cheek, then offer him the other. He also said that those who live by the sword shall die thereby. Finally, he said to love your neighbour as yourself which is the antithesis of going to war.

Amen!!! I absolutely LOVE your statement: " Finally, he said to love your neighbour as yourself which is the antithesis of going to war."

 

WOW!!! So true! Imagine how peaceful and awesome planet earth would be if everyone truly loved each other???

[BetheButterfly]

That doesn't make them any less Christian. Nor does it excuse the stain on christianity. It's still blood on their hands, and always will be.

 

Let's say Buddha (Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha) said to "Kill your enemies."

 

If he said that and his followers did that, then that would be Buddhism. However, as far as I know Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha did not teach his followers to do that.

 

Jesus Christ is the founder of Christianity. Jesus Christ taught his followers (who have been known as "Christians" since they were named that in Antioch -Acts 11:26) to love their enemies and he even specifies what that means:

 

1. Do good to those who hate you.

2. Bless those who curse you.

3. Pray for those who mistreat you.

4. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also.

5. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

6. Give to everyone who asks you.

7. If anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

8. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

9. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

10.Do not judge, and you will not be judged.

11. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.

12. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

(Found in Luke 6:27-37 NIV - Love for Enemies - ?But to you who - Bible Gateway)

 

I would agree with you IF Jesus Christ killed people and taught his followers to kill people. However, Jesus was killed and his followers were persecuted for their beliefs. They did not kill people, so "Christians" in the Roman Empire and Europe as well as in the USA and around the world who kill people are actually disobeying the founder of Christianity.

 

Does disobedience to a leader make the person who claims to be a follower a true representative? I don't think so. Rather, it shows they didn't truly follow Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ did not kill but rather was killed. His followers who walked and talked with Him didn't kill, but rather many were persecuted for believing that he is the Messiah.

[BetheButterfly]

Your post, quite offensively, ignores the entirety of the old testament, and the genocidal rulings of the divine leader. The Midianites, Amalekites.. etc.

 

I would like you to kindly ask Jewish Orthodox and Jewish Reform people if they are Christians? Thank you.

 

Your issue with the Old Testament has nothing to do with Jesus Christ in my opinion, but rather with the Tanakh. Some Jewish Reform people I know do not consider all that is written to be literal and historic. While many Jewish Orthodox people do believe more of the writing in the Tanakh happened, it is sad but true that many people groups -not just the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel)- conquered and killed people of other groups (and still do today).

 

'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3

Did Jesus Christ say this? Did Peter, James, John, and the other apostles "go and attack Amalek" or anybody "and utterly destroy..." and "kill both man and woman, child and infant"? Nope. If Jesus said this, then you would have a point.

 

 

Lest we not forget Jesus' words: "I have not come to bring peace but a sword." (Matt. 10:34)

Please see the context: (I boldened some.)

 

Matthew 10 NIV - Jesus Sends Out the Twelve - Jesus - Bible Gateway

"16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!

26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.[b] 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]

 

37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

 

Jesus spoke in parables and in giving physical symbols for spiritual ideals. He instructed his followers to TELL people about him, NOT KILL them! He instructed them to FLEE, NOT PERSECUTE BACK. Jesus' instructions are very much pacifist, not military!

 

My husband and I met yesterday an amazing lady from Pakistan who used to hate her daughter (because she accepted Jesus as her Savior) and that is a "no-no" for a Muslim to do!

 

All the family for generations have been Muslims. She and her husband kicked their daughter out of the house (thankfully a lovely lady gave her shelter at that time so she wasn't out on the streets). This is what Jesus is talking about. He's not talking about his followers killing others, but rather the sword is a symbol of conflict and it is true that for around 2 thousand years, many families have experienced conflict when some of them accept Jesus as the Messiah.

 

This mother also accepted Jesus as her Savior, and together she and her daughter are now praying for their husbands who oppose their conversion to Christianity. They draw comfort from Jesus' words here. Does this mean they are going to buy swords and attack their husbands??? NO WAY!!! Rather, they pray for their husbands and hope someday they will come to know Jesus as the Messiah too!

There's the midianites, canaanites, the Floods. Christianity has built in its own "exception" to this rule, that declares god's rulings are just and merciful. Simply because a culture is different or disagrees does not make any of this nonsense just or merciful, but savage and barbaric.

God creates and God destroys. Personally, I believe God cannot be held to human standards anymore than on the opposite spectrum we should hold bugs to human standards. Do we charge ants with breaking and entering when they dare enter a house? Nope. God is on the opposite spectrum and I truly believe we are to ants what God is to us.

 

More.

 

17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee - Deuteronomy, btw.

Again, this is not Jesus Christ's teachings. Jesus Christ teaches the opposite of destroying one's enemies. You could say Jesus Christ's teachings to love one's enemies and neighbors is directly in opposition to the commands to kill and destroy in the Tanakh.

The bible is full of examples of god ordered bloodshed. We don't have any historical manuscripts describing genocide on this massive of a scale in the name of nonbelief.

Long time ago, Atheism wasn't as prevalent. It seems that the earlier we go in the history of mankind, the more people believed in God or gods. While many Atheists today chalk that up to ignorance and lack of science (which is an understandable idea), I truly believe that earlier in the origin of mankind, more people understood that mankind is not the most "advanced" life form. I sound a bit like M30USA here right?

 

God is considered to be superior to humans, both in ancient cultures where they believed in many gods (like superhumans) and in the few cultures where they believed in One God.

Edited May 9, 2013 by BetheButterfly

[M30USA]

Your post, quite offensively, ignores the entirety of the old testament, and the genocidal rulings of the divine leader. The Midianites, Amalekites.. etc.

 

'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3

 

Lest we not forget Jesus' words: "I have not come to bring peace but a sword." (Matt. 10:34)

 

There's the midianites, canaanites, the Floods. Christianity has built in its own "exception" to this rule, that declares god's rulings are just and merciful. Simply because a culture is different or disagrees does not make any of this nonsense just or merciful, but savage and barbaric.

 

More.

 

17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them: the Hittite, and the Amorite, the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee - Deuteronomy, btw.

 

The bible is full of examples of god ordered bloodshed. We don't have any historical manuscripts describing genocide on this massive of a scale in the name of nonbelief.

 

The Amalekites were one of the many Nephilim tribes. According to Genesis 6 (and confirmed in Numbers 13:25-33, 2 Peter 2:4-6, and Jude 1:6-7), the Nephilim were offspring of fallen angels and human women. This is why God told Israel to exterminate them. They were the result of such an incredibly ungodly and forbidden act that God deemed this judgement appropriate. Had God not done this (and also destroyed them in flood), then it's likely that a messiah from the "seed of the woman" (Eve) would not have come in the person of Jesus Christ--then everyone including you would be doomed to hell without any way out. There are things going on in this world which are above our undestanding. It may sound like fiction to you, but you should at least consider it instead of believing yourself smarter than God.

Edited May 9, 2013 by M30USA

[CarrieT]

Interesting how a thread about an alternative religion always seems to turn into a Christian debate....

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[M30USA]

Interesting how a thread about an alternative religion always seems to turn into a Christian debate....

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

GK Chesterton said once that Christianity must be something truly great and ultimately true in light of the fact that people either believe it or, if they don't, they spend so much time arguing agsinst it and trying to disprove it.

[M30USA]

These genocidal acts were not comitted to simply suppress an enemy. They were GENOCIDE. Ordered murder and destruction of entire peoples. Now, to you, maybe we can white wash the bloody past of your chosen religion, if it makes you feel any better. You have to reconcile that. Being areligious (Not atheist, not really anything, really.) I don't have to white wash anything. I don't have to answer for the slaughter of innocents, men women and children included, to justify my religion's actions.

 

"Far be it from you [God] to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25 NIV)

 

The Nephilim tribes which you referenced were NOT innocent. Their very purpose was to oppose God and ultimately prevent Christ from being born.

 

Additionally, they were not fully human, but rather carried DNA of fallen angels. I find it highly interesting that modern science is now finding various prehistoric human-looking beings who had DNA that was anywhere between 50 and 91% "human"--with the rest not resembling ANY species on earth known to man.

Edited May 9, 2013 by M30USA

[Eve]

Further links, for those who are interested in learning more about the groups highlighted in the OT currently being discussed..

 

Amalek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Midian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Biblical Hittites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Moloch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Take care,

Eve x

[M30USA]

Further links, for those who are interested in learning more about the groups highlighted in the OT currently being discussed..

 

Amalek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Midian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Biblical Hittites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Moloch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

I've read modern commentary on these tribes. They are incorrect 90% of the time. The early church fathers had it correct. For example, you'll notice in the link you posted that Josefus (an ancient Jewish historian) referred to Amalek as a "bastard". Yet the Wikipedia writer says he meant it as a derogatory term. That is incorrect. Josefus meant it literally: Amalek had no father (or human father). It's sad to see that modern commentary even tries to go out of its way to not only reinterpret Scripture, but reinterpret ancient commentary on Scripture. I can tell you, factually, that Josefus supported the idea of Nephilim as offspring of fallen angels. Why these Wikipedia articles don't mention this really frustrates me. I honestly never read Wikipedia anymore. So many people use it now that it's a recipe for information to be controlled.

Edited May 9, 2013 by M30USA

[BetheButterfly]

Interesting how a thread about an alternative religion always seems to turn into a Christian debate....

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Reasons for the above:

 

1. The OP mentions Christianity.

2. Many members who post in the spirituality and religious beliefs section are Christian. People tend to post based on their beliefs and experiences.

3. Sad to say, many people who have called themselves Christians have disobeyed Jesus' commands to love their neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:39 NIV - And the second is like it: ?Love your - Bible Gateway), love each other (John 15:12 NIV - My command is this: Love each other as - Bible Gateway), and love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37 NIV - But I tell you, love your enemies and - Bible Gateway) which has resulted in many wars.

4. Just because one calls himself or herself a Christian doesn't mean he or she truly follows Jesus Christ, the founder of Christianity.

5. Jesus Christ did not kill people but rather taught and healed people.

6. Jesus Christ did not lead the Jewish people into a military campaign against the Roman oppressors nor did he lead anyone in military conquest of people of other lands.

7. The apostles of Jesus who walked and talked with Him did not kill others or lead anyone in military conquest. Rather, they endured persecution because of Jesus and because of telling other people about Jesus.

[TheFinalWord]

Interesting how a thread about an alternative religion always seems to turn into a Christian debate....

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Godwin's law about Hitler transpired on page one I believe. There is an unwritten rule that when Hitler or Nazis enter a debate, the thread is over. I personally think the Crusade's should be added to that list, but whatevers.

 

One thing I liked was that TaraMaiden posted about Karma the other day. There was a person debating with her, but it was interesting for someone, besides Christians, to put THEIR belief system out there for full, open critique and review. To me that is an honest approach. While I personally do not believe in Buddhism, IMHO it takes guts to say "I'm in the minority, but here is what I believe and why". That gets respect from me, even if I do not agree or believe that way.

 

Most of these Christian "debates" on here are non-Christians posting threads regarding their critique of Christianity. However, I rarely see non-Christian individuals start a new a thread "here is the worldview I adhere to and here is access to the literature I used to frame that world view" (unless someone has come up with a brand new religion, everyone has adopted their world view from someone else) and let everyone rip it apart The next layer after that would be to allow us to rip it apart, use insults and assume the worst, while that person sits there and shows kindness and respect. One thing about Christianity, our bible is out there for review and critique. I would love non-Christians to do the same. Until then, they can rant away and it just isn't that interesting to me. I already know the problems with Christianity...it's comprised of humans.

[Eve]

I've read modern commentary on these tribes. They are incorrect 90% of the time. The early church fathers had it correct. For example, you'll notice in the link you posted that Josefus (an ancient Jewish historian) referred to Amalek as a "bastard". Yet the Wikipedia writer says he meant it as a derogatory term. That is incorrect. Josefus meant it literally: Amalek had no father (or human father). It's sad to see that modern commentary even tries to go out of its way to not only reinterpret Scripture, but reinterpret ancient commentary on Scripture. I can tell you, factually, that Josefus supported the idea of Nephilim as offspring of fallen angels. Why these Wikipedia articles don't mention this really frustrates me. I honestly never read Wikipedia anymore. So many people use it now that it's a recipe for information to be controlled.

 

LOL, wiki should not really be quoted as a reference! I only do so because others do here. This isn't Uni so I don't think it matters so much. Or maybe we should strive to use formal references and journals? I would be cool with that but not many of us have such access.

 

.. but I was interested in the question posed by the OP because the theme is that no harm can be done by religious practices that are more closed or secret in origin such as Wicca, even if they employ witchcraft. War seems to be a measure of badness. I don't buy such a statement at all. At least the OT is there for all to read. Good and bad. Everyone knows what the initiations are such as baptism etc, not so in closed dark art practices. I am especially cautious as there is a connection between the gods being worshipped in the OT and modern dark arts. For example the demons worshipped in thelema and satanism are mentioned in the OT. I don't see wicca as the same thing but some progress via wicca to other branches of the dark arts, I hear... but that is up to them.

 

As a human and a Christian I am not a pacifist but I will not kill unless I am forced to by circumstances beyond my control. It would not be my first option but hey! As for the OT, it seems like a time of huge conflict and God stepped up big time. Revelation promises an even greater set of events even more far reaching that the OT. I can understand why an atheist would be in opposition to this as really, this will be the end of them by their own hand.

 

Not sure about the omission you noticed but you are right that my brain does work differently to yours. Personally, I do not have issue with the whole giant thing in the Bible but I have decided to not focus on it, as I do not like to overly focus my faith on one thing. I trust in God first and try to be practical with my faith in the ways in which I have been called.

 

Still, I may have a look tomorrow. I am quite tired now.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[M30USA]

Godwin's law about Hitler transpired on page one I believe. There is an unwritten rule that when Hitler or Nazis enter a debate, the thread is over. I personally think the Crusade's should be added to that list, but whatevers.

 

One thing I liked was that TaraMaiden posted about Karma the other day. There was a person debating with her, but it was interesting for someone, besides Christians, to put THEIR belief system out there for full, open critique and review. To me that is an honest approach. While I personally do not believe in Buddhism, IMHO it takes guts to say "I'm in the minority, but here is what I believe and why". That gets respect from me, even if I do not agree or believe that way.

 

Most of these Christian "debates" on here are non-Christians posting threads regarding their critique of Christianity. However, I rarely see non-Christian individuals start a new a thread "here is the worldview I adhere to and here is access to the literature I used to frame that world view" (unless someone has come up with a brand new religion, everyone has adopted their world view from someone else) and let everyone rip it apart The next layer after that would be to allow us to rip it apart, use insults and assume the worst, while that person sits there and shows kindness and respect. One thing about Christianity, our bible is out there for review and critique. I would love non-Christians to do the same. Until then, they can rant away and it just isn't that interesting to me. I already know the problems with Christianity...it's comprised of humans.

 

Good post.

 

I've referred to atheism before as a "phantom religion". It has all the practical, legal, and moral effects on the world that any other religion has; yet it has no target for criticism because its followers say it's not a religion. So basically it's the only worldview which stands above analysis and scrutiny. Very very dangerous. Need I say what happens when any idea or person stands above scrutiny?

[TheFinalWord]

Good post.

 

I've referred to atheism before as a "phantom religion". It has all the practical, legal, and moral effects on the world that any other religion has; yet it has no target for criticism because its followers say it's not a religion. So basically it's the only worldview which stands above analysis and scrutiny. Very very dangerous. Need I say what happens when any idea or person stands above scrutiny?

 

Well, there is plenty of criticism to go around in terms of Christianity. I get the whole "Christianity is sick and delusional" angle. I've personally encountered corruption in the church on a few occasions.

 

So their issues are not invalid. For myself, it would be refreshing if they would put their own worldviews out there for critique. And, if they do, instead of everyone ripping them apart, try to see where that person is coming from. If there is a disagreement, show respect and tact. People do not respond favorably to attacks and vitriol. That just puts up a defense mechanism.

 

IMHO, it's not about what you talk but how you walk. So using apologetics is beneficial for some things, but they can't see our lives over an internet board so it's sort of a endless circle. Our lives are a living testimony of the saving power of God. Virtual reputation is very limited in its ability to convey that.

 

Most debates w/ Christians and atheists do not even get into this topic of "lulz Christians are personally responsible for the knights of Templar in the 13th century and atheists are responsible for Mao the maniac" b/c everyone knows it never arrives at a useful conclusion.

 

But don't take it from me...

 

Who Kills More, Religion or Atheism?

[pureinheart]

Godwin's law about Hitler transpired on page one I believe. There is an unwritten rule that when Hitler or Nazis enter a debate, the thread is over. I personally think the Crusade's should be added to that list, but whatevers.

 

One thing I liked was that TaraMaiden posted about Karma the other day. There was a person debating with her, but it was interesting for someone, besides Christians, to put THEIR belief system out there for full, open critique and review. To me that is an honest approach. While I personally do not believe in Buddhism, IMHO it takes guts to say "I'm in the minority, but here is what I believe and why". That gets respect from me, even if I do not agree or believe that way.

 

Most of these Christian "debates" on here are non-Christians posting threads regarding their critique of Christianity. However, I rarely see non-Christian individuals start a new a thread "here is the worldview I adhere to and here is access to the literature I used to frame that world view" (unless someone has come up with a brand new religion, everyone has adopted their world view from someone else) and let everyone rip it apart The next layer after that would be to allow us to rip it apart, use insults and assume the worst, while that person sits there and shows kindness and respect. One thing about Christianity, our bible is out there for review and critique. I would love non-Christians to do the same. Until then, they can rant away and it just isn't that interesting to me. I already know the problems with Christianity...it's comprised of humans.

 

TFW, I have a difficult time with debating Christianity because I find that my answers to issues of wars, why God allows them, and why do bad things happen to good people etc. just aren't acceptable to the world. In fact God does not reveal all answers anyway- His ways are not ours and ours are not His.

 

I hold back a lot, especially when hearing how horribly "our" God is for allowing certain things to happen- where was He when this horrible thing or that horribe thing took place. I want so much to say, "well where was your god?" Then I am further insulted as to there must be something wrong with me to believe in such a God- yet they have all been those who have a belief system...interesting...

 

FTR, my slight rant here has nothing to do with anyone who has posted in this thread...these were past threads

Edited May 10, 2013 by pureinheart

[TheFinalWord]

TFW, I have a difficult time with debating Christianity because I find that my answers to issues of wars, why God allows them, and why do bad things happen to good people etc. just aren't acceptable to the world. In fact God does not reveal all answers anyway- His ways are not ours and ours are not His.

 

I hold back a lot, especially when hearing how horribly "our" God is for allowing certain things to happen- where was He when this horrible thing or that horribe thing took place. I want so much to say, "well where was your god?" Then I am further insulted as to there must be something wrong with me to believe in such a God- yet they have all been those who have a belief system...interesting...

 

Yes, those are difficult questions to answer. Good point. There is plenty of apologetic material on that topic, but unless one believes in God I doubt that content will be much consolation.

 

Not everyone is called to apologetics. So you don't have to debate. Besides, God can defend Himself (I'm certain of it). Our lives are a living testimony of the power of Christ. We are called to live out the grace and love of the Lord and to share with people why we have hope. That is the greatest ministry. To me too much focus on apologetics misses the point of Christianity. Christian philosophy is interesting to talk about and can provide a foundation, but our calling is not to beat truth into people, it's about loving people.

 

Edited May 10, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

TFW, I have a difficult time with debating Christianity because I find that my answers to issues of wars, why God allows them, and why do bad things happen to good people etc. just aren't acceptable to the world. In fact God does not reveal all answers anyway- His ways are not ours and ours are not His.

 

I hold back a lot, especially when hearing how horribly "our" God is for allowing certain things to happen- where was He when this horrible thing or that horribe thing took place. I want so much to say, "well where was your god?" Then I am further insulted as to there must be something wrong with me to believe in such a God- yet they have all been those who have a belief system...interesting...

 

FTR, my slight rant here has nothing to do with anyone who has posted in this thread...these were past threads

 

Correction- horrible, not horribly

[pureinheart]

Yes, those are difficult questions to answer. Good point. There is plenty of apologetic material on that topic, but unless one believes in God I doubt that content will be much consolation.

 

Not everyone is called to apologetics. So you don't have to debate. Besides, God can defend Himself (I'm certain of it). Our lives are a living testimony of the power of Christ. We are called to live out the grace and love of the Lord and to share with people why we have hope. That is the greatest ministry. To me too much focus on apologetics misses the point of Christianity. Christian philosophy is interesting to talk about and can provide a foundation, but our calling is not to beat truth into people, it's about loving people.

 

 

This ^^^^^^ warrants it's own thread!

[M30USA]

TFW, I have a difficult time with debating Christianity because I find that my answers to issues of wars, why God allows them, and why do bad things happen to good people etc. just aren't acceptable to the world. In fact God does not reveal all answers anyway- His ways are not ours and ours are not His.

 

I hold back a lot, especially when hearing how horribly "our" God is for allowing certain things to happen- where was He when this horrible thing or that horribe thing took place. I want so much to say, "well where was your god?" Then I am further insulted as to there must be something wrong with me to believe in such a God- yet they have all been those who have a belief system...interesting...

 

FTR, my slight rant here has nothing to do with anyone who has posted in this thread...these were past threads

 

Believe it or not, I find that my counter-explanation to why God committed genocide in Canaan as well as sent the Flood seems to satisfy most skeptics. They either stop arguing because they think the Nephilim idea is just plain batty, or they say, "I've never heard that before. It's a bit weird but...it actually makes sense if it's true."

 

I think most debates against skeptics should not be centered about THEIR frame of references, but rather entirely around Scripture. Instead of debating if God exists, tell them what God SAYS! Assume they KNOW he exists! After all, the Bible says everybody knows! So don't get stuck in a smokescreen argument. Relentlessly teach the Bible, the Bible, the Bible. It may piss people off who are looking for a debate, but at least they'll walk away having LEARNED what God says and who God is, rather than whether he exists or not.

 

I think if we present the Bible to people with NO FEAR and don't try to sugar cost it (even the verses that are bizarre and out there), then people would respect us more and would be able to decide, for themselves, what they want to believe. Nothing irks me more than Christians who try to "hide" the true God and make him appear less offensive and more "relatable". God is holy. We are not. Therefore he WILL offend us.

[pureinheart]

Believe it or not, I find that my counter-explanation to why God committed genocide in Canaan as well as sent the Flood seems to satisfy most skeptics. They either stop arguing because they think the Nephilim idea is just plain batty, or they say, "I've never heard that before. It's a bit weird but...it actually makes sense if it's true."

 

I think most debates against skeptics should not be centered about THEIR frame of references, but rather entirely around Scripture. Instead of debating if God exists, tell them what God SAYS! Assume they KNOW he exists! After all, the Bible says everybody knows! So don't get stuck in a smokescreen argument. Relentlessly teach the Bible, the Bible, the Bible. It may piss people off who are looking for a debate, but at least they'll walk away having LEARNED what God says and who God is, rather than whether he exists or not.

 

I think if we present the Bible to people with NO FEAR and don't try to sugar cost it (even the verses that are bizarre and out there), then people would respect us more and would be able to decide, for themselves, what they want to believe. Nothing irks me more than Christians who try to "hide" the true God and make him appear less offensive and more "relatable". God is holy. We are not. Therefore he WILL offend us.

 

This is wonderful and wise info- thank you so much M30, you are soooo right.

 

In bold is where I mess up. This comes from having people pleasing tendancies, when I should be focused on pleasing God, and God alone. I feel like I try to "sell" God or make excuses sometimes rather than speak His truth.

 

Frankly I don't know why God has allowed certain things to happen, like various non explained wars for instance...you know? Why so many innocents have been killed in wars or war-like circumstances. I don't hear much about all of the Christians burned at the stakes and all of the other horrible means in which innocent Christians have been murdered...but if it's Christian casualties, that seems to be acceptable.

 

Another mistake I make, especially why God allows certain things (like wars), is I put myself in the nonbelievers shoes and their thinking and try to give an answer on those levels...like you said...the Bible, the Bible, the Bible. Boy I feel like a mess right now, almost like I've been doing a great disservice to God- have to say the conviction coupled with truth feels priddy good (weird I know, but Godly conviction/correction feels good to me). Thanks M30....and thanks for the rant lol

[TheFinalWord]

Nothing irks me more than Christians who try to "hide" the true God and make him appear less offensive and more "relatable". God is holy. We are not. Therefore he WILL offend us.

 

I agree with that to an extent. I do believe Jesus is very relable to us, as he was tempted in the same ways we are. He also loves us and desires communion and fellowship with each of us.

 

One thing I have noticed is that some Christians focus on Grace and some focus on Truth. So you will have Christians on one end of the spectrum saying "grace, grace" and turning a blind eye to sin. And then you will have other Christians on the opposite side beating everyone upside the head with the bible.

 

Jesus embodied both grace and truth, and we should apply the same model

 

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

 

The correct approach, the Christ-like approach, is to share the truth of God's Word, with love, patience, and humility.

 

Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

Good discussion.