Cutting

[Harradin]

Hey guys, I bought some scales this week as I need to lose about 7kg. These scales measure body fat aswell and its a bit disturbing. I guess this is the wrong forum to ask but I thought I would anyway.

 

I'm male, 6'1 (186cm,) 86kg (190lbs,) got 17% body fat that according to Google is on the high end of athletic/average. I'm pretty strong, not crazy ripped or anything so it'd be more of a cutting phase then a weight loss.

 

What should I do in terms of diet? I'm thinking of not touching carbs and living on constant protein to maintain the muscle I have and still lose weight. I have recovery and protein shakes (low carb version,) the recovery shakes have 30g carbs so I reckon that should be my maximum carb intake daily.

 

In terms of exercise, I'm training to improve my stamina at the moment as its pretty bad. Doing 30 minute runs every day with 5-7% incline at 10.5-12kph, although I'm taking the weekend off as my feet are killing me. After my final exam on Wednesday I plan on doing judo/kickboxing/whatever martial art I can find to keep it up from uni. I'm not doing any strength training because I hate pumping iron, but I am doing abs/chest workouts at home every other day. But if I need to do strength training then I will, can you recommend whether I should? I tend to gain muscle quickly which might ruin my weight loss.

 

Cheers guys

[Emilia]

Hey guys, I bought some scales this week as I need to lose about 7kg. These scales measure body fat aswell and its a bit disturbing. I guess this is the wrong forum to ask but I thought I would anyway.

 

I'm male, 6'1 (186cm,) 86kg (190lbs,) got 17% body fat that according to Google is on the high end of athletic/average. I'm pretty strong, not crazy ripped or anything so it'd be more of a cutting phase then a weight loss.

May I ask first whether you want to cut because you don't like the way you look or because of what the scales have showed you?

[Andy_K]

Hey guys, I bought some scales this week as I need to lose about 7kg. These scales measure body fat aswell and its a bit disturbing. I guess this is the wrong forum to ask but I thought I would anyway.

 

Body fat scales are very inaccurate. I'm sure the scale tells you it measures to 0.1% level, but the reality is that the measurement it gives you is still +/- 5%. They're useful for measuring your progress when used regularly at the same time of day, but not as an absolute measure of body fat.

 

Go by your reflection in the mirror or your waist fat. If you can see a bit of ab definition, you're 15% or less. If you have a full six-pack you're likely to be sub 10%. If neither but not really 'fat' then about 20. If chubby, then 25% plus

[tman666]

For weight loss, your plan sounds adequate.

 

For fat loss while maintaining your muscle mass, I think you need to re-evaluate.

 

You absolutely need to strength train on a cut. "Conventional wisdom" says to stick to high reps, light weight. This is false, and will only waste your time and make you look crappy.

 

Stick to high weight, and moderate to lower volume. Do your heavy squats, deadlifts, pressing, rows, pull ups, and dips. "Beach muscle" work (calves, abs, bis, direct delt work) is fine too in reasonable amounts, but most of your program should be on the heavier side with compound movements. I would limit any cardio work for the first few weeks until you settle in to your strength training routine. After that, you could add in a couple of short, high intensity sessions per week post training, or if you prefer steady state cardio, you could do some fasted morning cardio every day for 15-20 minutes at lower intensity.

 

For your diet, keep your protein high (1 gram per lb of bodyweight) on all days. For carbs, you have the right idea with cutting them back, but I wouldn't eliminate them. My best results were with carb cycling. On weight training days, I'd shoot for 100-150 grams of carbs taken mostly post-workout from slower digesting sources such as potatoes, rice, or quinoa. On non-lifting days, I'd focus on getting more low-cal/carb veggies in (broccoli, cauliflower, chard, spinach, asparagus, kale, etc.) and a little more fat from sources like avocados, olive oil, coconut oil, and what not.

 

I would also advise against dropping your caloric intake too suddenly. Take what you eat now (in terms of caloric intake) and subtract 200-300 cal per day at most. Dropping back too suddenly will just make you feel and perform like crap, not to mention your metabolism will suffer.

 

There are a lot of ways to cut, and you'll have to self experiment to find out what works best for you. The above is what has worked well for me in the past.

 

What has NOT worked well for me:

 

1) upping the gym volume a lot

2) cutting out all carbs

3) doing a ton of cardio

 

What HAS worked well for me:

 

1) carb cycling

2) heavy lifting with shorter, high intensity conditioning sessions

[Harradin]

May I ask first whether you want to cut because you don't like the way you look or because of what the scales have showed you?

 

I'm not keen on the way I look but not the main reason, I do want to get a six pack but that's more to tick a life goal just to say I had one. I want to cut for motorsport(karting,) I want to get onto the optimal weight limit which I'm about 6-7kg off at the moment. Weight is vital, 5kg makes a big difference.

 

Body fat scales are very inaccurate. I'm sure the scale tells you it measures to 0.1% level, but the reality is that the measurement it gives you is still +/- 5%. They're useful for measuring your progress when used regularly at the same time of day, but not as an absolute measure of body fat.

 

Go by your reflection in the mirror or your waist fat. If you can see a bit of ab definition, you're 15% or less. If you have a full six-pack you're likely to be sub 10%. If neither but not really 'fat' then about 20. If chubby, then 25% plus

 

I use mine regularly at the same time of the day, but I won't believe it properly, cheers . I'm probably around the 15% region, as I have ab definition but not fat.

 

For weight loss, your plan sounds adequate.

 

For fat loss while maintaining your muscle mass, I think you need to re-evaluate.

 

You absolutely need to strength train on a cut. "Conventional wisdom" says to stick to high reps, light weight. This is false, and will only waste your time and make you look crappy.

 

Stick to high weight, and moderate to lower volume. Do your heavy squats, deadlifts, pressing, rows, pull ups, and dips. "Beach muscle" work (calves, abs, bis, direct delt work) is fine too in reasonable amounts, but most of your program should be on the heavier side with compound movements. I would limit any cardio work for the first few weeks until you settle in to your strength training routine. After that, you could add in a couple of short, high intensity sessions per week post training, or if you prefer steady state cardio, you could do some fasted morning cardio every day for 15-20 minutes at lower intensity.

 

So in the gym, I'd use machines (free weights is virtually impossible at the gym I use, its always full of people) like: leg press, lat pulldowns, chest press, shoulder press and row? I can incorporate squats into my home abs/chest workout.

 

In terms of cardio work, I leave it out for a couple of weeks then do mostly short sprinting on the days I don't do strength training? Should I do any long distance to improve stamina aswell or would the short distance be more beneficial?

 

For your diet, keep your protein high (1 gram per lb of bodyweight) on all days. For carbs, you have the right idea with cutting them back, but I wouldn't eliminate them. My best results were with carb cycling. On weight training days, I'd shoot for 100-150 grams of carbs taken mostly post-workout from slower digesting sources such as potatoes, rice, or quinoa. On non-lifting days, I'd focus on getting more low-cal/carb veggies in (broccoli, cauliflower, chard, spinach, asparagus, kale, etc.) and a little more fat from sources like avocados, olive oil, coconut oil, and what not.

 

I would also advise against dropping your caloric intake too suddenly. Take what you eat now (in terms of caloric intake) and subtract 200-300 cal per day at most. Dropping back too suddenly will just make you feel and perform like crap, not to mention your metabolism will suffer.

 

There are a lot of ways to cut, and you'll have to self experiment to find out what works best for you. The above is what has worked well for me in the past.

 

What has NOT worked well for me:

 

1) upping the gym volume a lot

2) cutting out all carbs

3) doing a ton of cardio

 

What HAS worked well for me:

 

1) carb cycling

2) heavy lifting with shorter, high intensity conditioning sessions

 

So I need approx 190g of protein, I get over half from my protein shakes so some lean chicken ought to be enough for my protein intake. Would pasta be a good one to use (I usually eat a handful of pasta every day) for the days I do cardio and not weight training? Another question, would it be more beneficial to have cereal or bacon (1tsb olive oil added) and fried/scrambled eggs for breakfast? I ask because I generally eat cereal atm.

 

I love routines so I tend to eat the same thing every day so adapting to a diet is pretty easy for me.

 

Thanks for the help everyone I really appreciate it

[tman666]

Sorry, I didn't realize you actually need to cut scale weight for your sport.

 

My advice was geared more towards a body-recomposition goal, which is what most people typically want when they refer to "weight loss".

 

If your gym doesn't have much in the way of free weights, I think you can still do ok with a chest press machine, rowing machines, leg press, and some way of rowing. Not ideal, but you can make it work. You still want to be going heavy though.

 

In terms of cardio for fat loss versus cardio for sports conditioning, there is a potential disconnect. If your sport requires you to be able to sustain longer output at a lower intensity (such as marathon running, for example), you still need to train that way. However, doing higher intensity work (such as sprints) will help a lot in terms of allowing you to improve your stamina as well.

 

Basically, you should still train according to the needs of your sport. If your only goal was to lose fat and maintain muscle mass, then things change a bit.

 

Pasta is basically a carb source, and is probably best eaten on days that you weight train-post training. For non-weight training days, I'd stick with veggies, protein, and some fats.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the details. There are lot of different things that work. As far as what works best for you, that will take some self-experimentation. I think as long as you're lifting heavy, not going overboard with training volume, and tuning your diet up a little, you'll head in the direction you want.

[Harradin]

Sorry, I didn't realize you actually need to cut scale weight for your sport.

 

My advice was geared more towards a body-recomposition goal, which is what most people typically want when they refer to "weight loss".

 

If your gym doesn't have much in the way of free weights, I think you can still do ok with a chest press machine, rowing machines, leg press, and some way of rowing. Not ideal, but you can make it work. You still want to be going heavy though.

 

In terms of cardio for fat loss versus cardio for sports conditioning, there is a potential disconnect. If your sport requires you to be able to sustain longer output at a lower intensity (such as marathon running, for example), you still need to train that way. However, doing higher intensity work (such as sprints) will help a lot in terms of allowing you to improve your stamina as well.

 

Basically, you should still train according to the needs of your sport. If your only goal was to lose fat and maintain muscle mass, then things change a bit.

 

Pasta is basically a carb source, and is probably best eaten on days that you weight train-post training. For non-weight training days, I'd stick with veggies, protein, and some fats.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the details. There are lot of different things that work. As far as what works best for you, that will take some self-experimentation. I think as long as you're lifting heavy, not going overboard with training volume, and tuning your diet up a little, you'll head in the direction you want.

 

No worries, all your advice was useful, thanks a lot . Thanks all.

[PogoStick]

High rep weights like 15x3

At 15-17% you have plenty of fat to lose so you can keep your muscle.

You don't need even close to 190g of protein. 130-140 is plenty for you. Taking out that unnecessary protein means you lose an extra 1kg/month. And leaves room for other healthy things like your fruits and veggies, nothing wrong with carbs.

Edited May 11, 2013 by PogoStick

[USMCHokie]

High rep weights like 15x3

 

I hope you're talking about 15 sets of 3 reps each...because I personally feel that 15 reps of anything in a set (save drop sets) is a useless endeavor and serves no purpose.

 

Again, just my personal opinion...

[PogoStick]

That's like saying all cardio exercise shouldn't last longer than 5 minutes.

 

It's endurance based sport and he doesn't want to gain muscle. High reps serves that purpose plus he'll burn more calories at low weight/high reps than the other way around.

[tman666]

That's like saying all cardio exercise shouldn't last longer than 5 minutes.

 

It's endurance based sport and he doesn't want to gain muscle. High reps serves that purpose plus he'll burn more calories at low weight/high reps than the other way around.

 

I think that you might want to quantify what "low weight/high reps" means when you refer to this. If the weight is too low, the amount of exertion required, even at high reps, isn't going to create much of a caloric deficit. "Feeling a burn" isn't necessarily indicative of how many calories are being used.

 

Alternatively, moderate weight (65-85% 1RM or so) at high reps (8-20) per set will surely require a greater amount of exertion and burn more calories, but the problem when doing this while cutting lies in that for most people (excluding very obese trainees), OP included, a caloric deficit will be required in order to lose fat.

 

Since muscle is very metabolically expensive, meaning that the body must utilize a lot of energy resources in order to build and keep it, there is a tendency for the body to lose muscle, in addition to fat, while in a prolonged caloric deficit.

 

To combat this, there needs to be sufficient training stimulus to provide enough "incentive" for the body to retain muscle mass. This holds true for both bulking and cutting, but it is especially important during a cut if the trainee needs to hold on to as much muscle as possible.

 

This basically rules out light weight "pump" training as a viable option during a cut. It's basically a waste of time, as Hokie said. Moderately heavy weight at high reps, in my experience, is best reserved for bulking cycles since the trainee will have sufficient caloric intake to recover from the higher volume.

 

The main problem with higher volume training during a cut comes in the form of the trainee's ability to recover in light of a sustained caloric deficit.

 

For getting lean, it's often not how hard you are dieting but for how long. There's really only so much one can shave out of their diet and only so much one can add to their training before they hit a wall in terms of recovery ability and adherence to their diet.

 

In addition, it's much, much easier to create a caloric deficit through nutritional changes than it is to add training volume.

 

Hence, the suggestion that OP stick to higher weight, keep the volume reasonable, and keep his protein high. In my opinion and experience, this combo allows for the greatest amount of recovery (allowing frequent training), greatest amount of muscle mass retained, and a sustainable plan for a longer term cut.

[USMCHokie]

^^^^^ What he said.

[Emilia]

Hence, the suggestion that OP stick to higher weight, keep the volume reasonable, and keep his protein high. In my opinion and experience, this combo allows for the greatest amount of recovery (allowing frequent training), greatest amount of muscle mass retained, and a sustainable plan for a longer term cut.

Reading your posts is like a free-ride effect: it saves me doing tons of research

[tman666]

Reading your posts is like a free-ride effect: it saves me doing tons of research

 

Haha don't let my ramblings stop you from researching! Plus, if you find anything interesting or contradictory, I'm all ears.

 

I've sort of gotten away from delving too much into the science. I know that sounds bad, but my reasoning is that the science doesn't mean much unless it's applied successfully by individuals.

 

There are already hordes of pencil necks that spend so much doing "internet lab-coating" that I think there's a tendency by them to miss the forest for the trees.

 

Instead, I try to focus more on sharing experience-based knowledge/opinions (which is decidedly non-scientific). The best resources, in my opinion, are the people who have actually done things and have experienced the realities of reaching (or trying to reach) whatever goal may be in pursuit.

 

I think this is why it's so important to try and train with people who are more experienced/stronger/leaner/faster/etc. than you are. In addition to the extra motivation and complacency aversion, one picks up small tidbits of info that are difficult or impossible to demonstrate through controlled experimentation alone.

 

While I would never claim to be universally "right" on any subject, I try to give the best responses I can based on what I have experienced and what has worked (and what hasn't worked) for me. Perhaps it will work for others; perhaps it won't. Only one way to find out for sure.

[Emilia]

Instead, I try to focus more on sharing experience-based knowledge/opinions (which is decidedly non-scientific). The best resources, in my opinion, are the people who have actually done things and have experienced the realities of reaching (or trying to reach) whatever goal may be in pursuit.

 

I think this is why it's so important to try and train with people who are more experienced/stronger/leaner/faster/etc. than you are. In addition to the extra motivation and complacency aversion, one picks up small tidbits of info that are difficult or impossible to demonstrate through controlled experimentation alone.

 

While I would never claim to be universally "right" on any subject, I try to give the best responses I can based on what I have experienced and what has worked (and what hasn't worked) for me. Perhaps it will work for others; perhaps it won't. Only one way to find out for sure.

 

I do read up on stuff, even just because it interests me and why not but I try to follow advice from those that put their body on the line when it comes down to it. This is why I said in another thread that I take advice from people that care about functional strength (such a general expression) and have been training for years.

 

From what I have seen over the last couple of years as I started taking more serious interest in strength training (rather than just 'fitness') is that a lot of it is common sense. Once you have figured out the basics, you can experiment a little.

 

However, it amazes me every day how many don't bother to do the slightest amount of research. It shows in their fragility (and I don't mean the occasional injury).

[Harradin]

All of this is really useful to me, thanks guys . I've done my first strength training session today, got my abs/chest/squats workout to do in a couple of hours or so after dinner soaks in (1 piece of chicken breast and a handful of pasta.) This is alright?

 

-1000 metres on a rowing machine at the top level (10) as a warmup, I took it easy because I tend to push too hard in the first minute or so. Did it in 3 mins, 30 secs or so.

- 3 sets of 12 reps (I had the weight so I was struggling to finish the sets) on chest press, shoulder press, seated row, lat pulldown and leg press, I didn't want to do too much, wanted to settle into it. is there any other machines (described in previous posts that there's too many people in the free weights so its more or less impossible) I should be using?

- Finished it off with a 10 minute sprint warm down.

 

Just wanted to check I'm doing everything right. Tomorrow I'm gonna do a 30 minute (plan on increasing to 45 when 30 is too easy) incline run in the morning then do a 10 minute sprint in the evening.

[tman666]

All of this is really useful to me, thanks guys . I've done my first strength training session today, got my abs/chest/squats workout to do in a couple of hours or so after dinner soaks in (1 piece of chicken breast and a handful of pasta.) This is alright?

 

-1000 metres on a rowing machine at the top level (10) as a warmup, I took it easy because I tend to push too hard in the first minute or so. Did it in 3 mins, 30 secs or so.

- 3 sets of 12 reps (I had the weight so I was struggling to finish the sets) on chest press, shoulder press, seated row, lat pulldown and leg press, I didn't want to do too much, wanted to settle into it. is there any other machines (described in previous posts that there's too many people in the free weights so its more or less impossible) I should be using?

- Finished it off with a 10 minute sprint warm down.

 

Just wanted to check I'm doing everything right. Tomorrow I'm gonna do a 30 minute (plan on increasing to 45 when 30 is too easy) incline run in the morning then do a 10 minute sprint in the evening.

 

If you're brand new to strength training, I'd say that 3 sets of 12 per exercise is fine, as long as you are focusing on practicing good form and progressively upping the weight.

 

Over time, as you up the weight, you'll probably find that it's better (in terms of maintaining form an making progress) to do more sets with less reps per set, such as 5 sets of 5, or even 8-10 sets of 3 reps (on main movements such as squats, deadlifts, pressing). I personally like doing rows with more volume (8-12 reps per set) because I feel that upper back muscles respond better to higher volume, but that's a fairly minor detail.

 

Another thing you want to pay attention to is balance. It's harder to achieve muscular balance with machines than it is with free weights since most machines tend to isolate muscles and muscle groups more than free weights. That said, there are certain machines that do a better job than others at approximating a free moving weight: ball and joint type machines, and cable stacks with free moving handle attachments tend to be bit more useful than others.

 

So back to balance: make sure you do an equal or greater amount of rowing volume than you do with pressing volume. This is important for your shoulder health. Basically, for every one rep of pressing you do, make sure you do at least one rep of rowing. For example, if you did 3 sets of 12 on a chest press machine, make sure you do at least 3 sets of 12 on a rowing machine, preferably in the same plane of motion. You might consider throwing in 3 sets of pull ups or chin ups at the beginning of your workout as well. Not only do they make an excellent warm up, but it will help you get in some extra rowing/pulling volume.

 

As far as lower body balance, depending on your leg press stance, you could be training your quads or hamstrings more dominantly. This isn't necessarily a problem, but you don't want quad/hamstring imbalances either. Most people tend to have weak hamstrings compared to their quads, so it's not a bad idea to throw in some sort of direct hamstring/glute work in addition to leg press. Examples would include Romanian Deadlifts (RDLs), hyper-back extensions, glute ham raises, and even leg curls.

 

If at all possible, I think you should definitely try to elbow your way into the free weight areas at your gym. Machines are best used for rehabilitation work, isolating specific weaknesses, and for specific hypertrophy. Since you're not injured or trying to become a bodybuilder, your best chance at developing balanced, "functional" strength is going to be through free weights and bodyweight exercises.

 

As an aside, don't underestimate the effectiveness of bodyweight only training (push up variations, pull up variations, squats, lunges, jumps, etc.) when it comes to not only shedding fat, but also developing balanced athleticism and a respectable amount of strength.

 

Take gymnasts for example. Ever noticed how they're pretty much all jacked? It takes a TON of relative strength to do what they do. The beauty of bodyweight training is that it doesn't take much equipment either. A pull up bar is pretty much all you need.

 

Bodyweight training won't get you bodybuilder big or powerlifter strong. Those are examples of some very specific adaptations that require specific training. But, if your goal is to lean up, develop some a well balanced strength base, and possibly build some decent muscle size as well, you might consider adding a couple of bodyweight training sessions per week.