MM plans for divorce

[HKiddo]

I'm a new poster, really glad I found this forum. It is helpful to see all the varied situations that everyone finds themselves in despite all being the OW.

 

I thought perhaps those on this forum could provide some guidance for me in my situation.

 

MM and I were friends, but not very close, since September. In January we spent a lot of time together, and grew close, and in February we began the A. At the beginning he had said that he couldn't leave his wife and we had tried to stop seeing each other. It didn't work; I don't think either of us was that committed to that idea. At the end March, we began to talk about him ending his marriage. He said then it was just a matter of time because, as with most situations, there are lots of logistical problems. They don't have children, but she's foreign and here just for him to finish his graduate degree. We're both in grad school together; and all of us are within 2 years of 30 with his wife being the oldest, and me being the youngest. They were originally planning on returning to her home country after he gets his grad degree.

 

They had been having problems but since the beginning of April, he has brought up getting a divorce with her multiple times. She has been (understandably) very emotional about it--receptive to the idea at times, angry at others. During this time, MM and I had continued our A, seeing each other just about every day. It has been really hard for everyone, and in an effort to end it quickly, he had told me as I was leaving for a four day trip that by the time I returned, he'd be able to stay over at my place, and while he wouldn't be legally divorced, he would be basically available. During this trip, we didn't communicate much, though he did tell me not to worry a few times over text.

 

When I returned (this was about a week ago), he told me he wasn't able to do it. He thought it was over because his bags were packed and he said he wasn't going to stay at their apartment anymore but his wife who had agreed to a divorce then refused to get one because she found out about us, and told him parents (who live in the same city) about it. Neither his wife nor parents know we have slept together (but they probably assume it) but they now all know that we say "I love you" to each other. He and his mother had a talk during which he told her he was in love with me but she urged him to give his marriage one more chance even for the sake of him and I being together in the future. He said it sounded really reasonable coming from his mother. It hurt and I asked him if he wanted to work on his marriage but he said that he didn't think it could work anymore and in any case, he didn't want to and he wanted to be available to pursue what we had.

 

Since then, I've told him I want to give him the space he needs to sort this mess out. He agreed that space was a good thing and he wanted to end his marriage but clearly, four days is not enough. For what it's worth, he repeatedly said he was committed to pursuing what we have. We haven't seen each other, but have communicated sparingly about other things (sports mostly).

 

The logistics/factual circumstances are: as mentioned before, his wife is foreign, and her visa was based on her marriage to him. He has a fellowship in the Netherlands for the month of July; his wife has tickets to go with him and his mother-in-law has tickets to visit them. After the Netherlands, he has a semester in Singapore, so he won't be back in the States until the end of December.

 

I want to wait but as you all know, it's very difficult. When he originally decided he wanted to end his marriage back in March, he had told me that he believed it could be done by the time he head to Singapore because of the logistics. I don't know how to approach the time from now until then. I know he is going through a lot, as is his wife. It puts a lot of stress on his family (and hers too, though I'm not aware of whether they know the situation). So I feel I should be acting in a way that supports him, or rather, the vision of our future, that he is going through all this mess for. I don't know what that way is.

 

I also don't know if/when I should give up on this and just move on. I know many people will look at this (as I sometimes do with some stories) and wonder why the woman doesn't just move on with her life. I know the timeline seems very rushed. We are young(ish) but not that young. I've had multiple of 2+ year relationships so I don't feel that naive or inexperienced in romantic relationships. I understand there are difficulties in our future and I accept (as much as I prospectively accept something) the trust, family, etc. issues that we'll face in our future even if we were able to pursue this relationship.

 

Sorry for the wall of text. Any support and advice, especially from those who have been through similar situations, would be much appreciated.

[HKiddo]

Thank you for the advice, Lady Grey. When do you think is the line for when he is no longer invested? I agree that he still is now, but divorce is a long arduous process and I'm not sure how to evaluate when he's pulled the plug.

[carhill]

If the MM is a US citizen and resident, divorce is actually pretty easy, in nearly all states of residence. He simply makes the initial filing with the court and moves out/away/whatever. Settling out financial issues takes time but that's just moving numbers around and, since everyone is apparently young and mobile, I doubt there are any significant issues to contend with.

 

A good indication that he's 'pulled the plug' is when the case summary shows all the financial information is filed and a hearing/settlement is scheduled/filed. Easy to see in most jurisdictions, either online or at the court. That and separate domiciles will pretty much signal that the marriage is over.

[ComingInHot]

HKiddo wrote, " They had been having problems but since the beginning of April, he has brought up getting a divorce with her multiple times. She has been (understandably) very emotional about it--receptive to the idea at times, angry at others..."

 

HKiddo, you are Extremely lucky! Not very many OW/OM have the opportunity to speak w/the BS to know what you wrote above about how she is doing and how WS told her etc... is the truth. You did speak w/her right? That would be the best way to know w/out a doubt that what you wrote above is the truth.

Anything else is just hearsay. But you know that*

 

I'm thinking you backing off til D is final is probably the best thing you can do for you. Looking at the logistics, how would you make it work w/him anyway being that he'll be out of the country AND w/his W? I'm worried during this time out of the country and you two trying to make a go of it While his W is w/him, could just mean months of crazy for you.

 

If it were me, I'd be out of my mind thinking all the thoughts...

But I'm not really an A or cheater type of person. It'd kill me.

[ForeverHopeful1]

Do you actually KNOW if ANY of this is true? Or is this all stuff he has told you?

[HKiddo]

Obviously, I don't know if all of it is true. Then again, we never know if something someone else tells us is true unless we were there. Even corroboration can be fabricated.

 

That said, I really appreciate everyone's warning. I haven't spoken to the BS. I know the logistics are true as much as is possible. A few of his friends and I knew that his wife and him often have fights from before the A started. I don't know if it's true his wife found out about us and told his parents. His best friends have said that letting him pack his bags and then rescinding is something his wife would do. He has told most of his friends that he is in love with me and wants a divorce. One of his old friends who is an expat in Singapore and I have chatted a couple of times and she has spoken to me under the assumption that by the time he was there, he and I would be together and I would go visit/stay as well.

 

That's the extent of what I know. We are always operating under assumptions because we don't really know everything. Whether I believe the things someone tells me is based on many factors. I don't know if the details are true. But based on my very subjective (and most likely very clouded) judgment, this is true: he is unhappy in his marriage and if there was a clean happy way to end it, he would take that route. Of course, it isn't clean or happy and I believe that he has tried to, but because ending marriages IS hard (and long) he wasn't able to the first time he really tried. Hell, most relationships require more than one serious "we need to break up" talk to end, never mind a marriage. I believe that he has the will and wants to try to keep doing it. I don't know if he has the personality to actually finish the job.

[Decorative]

I would not want a man who wasn't strong enough to end a relationship properly without having another one lined up and ready. And quite frankly- a man who wants to leave can be gone by that night. None of this taking so much time- especially in a relationship without children.

 

Something to think about.

[So happy together]

HKiddo wrote, " They had been having problems but since the beginning of April, he has brought up getting a divorce with her multiple times. She has been (understandably) very emotional about it--receptive to the idea at times, angry at others..."

 

HKiddo, you are Extremely lucky! Not very many OW/OM have the opportunity to speak w/the BS to know what you wrote above about how she is doing and how WS told her etc... is the truth. You did speak w/her right? That would be the best way to know w/out a doubt that what you wrote above is the truth.

Anything else is just hearsay. But you know that*

 

I'm thinking you backing off til D is final is probably the best thing you can do for you. Looking at the logistics, how would you make it work w/him anyway being that he'll be out of the country AND w/his W? I'm worried during this time out of the country and you two trying to make a go of it While his W is w/him, could just mean months of crazy for you.

 

If it were me, I'd be out of my mind thinking all the thoughts...

But I'm not really an A or cheater type of person. It'd kill me.

 

 

Come on, let's try to be a little less snarky, okay? It's clear she knows these things from what her MM and others have told her. I hated it when people questioned what I knew because even though I did not speak to her directly, I KNEW. There are a lot of ways to find out, for example, hearing things from mutual friends, from co workers, etc. Not to mention whether or not his story changes, or the facts take on a different slant.

 

Btw, for me, every single thing he told me turned out to be true. Of course I know this is not the norm, that MM lie, and BS's, etc. would like to believe that ALL MM lie, but mine didn't. About anything. He omitted things to his stbxw of course, but he never outright lied to her, and he's never omitted, or lied to me that I know about.

 

Kiddo, what exactly is your situation? I guess I've missed it? Is he saying he wants to leave his W and come to you?

[So happy together]

I would not want a man who wasn't strong enough to end a relationship properly without having another one lined up and ready. And quite frankly- a man who wants to leave can be gone by that night. None of this taking so much time- especially in a relationship without children.

 

Something to think about.

 

Dec, I'm sorry, I keep getting you mixed up with a couple of other posters. Would you remind me of your sitch? You're BS, right? I can't remember if you are still with your hubby or not? Sorry... so many people, I get confused. Lol.

[anne1707]

Dec, I'm sorry, I keep getting you mixed up with a couple of other posters. Would you remind me of your sitch? You're BS, right? I can't remember if you are still with your hubby or not? Sorry... so many people, I get confused. Lol.

 

Is it just me or is this post just plain ol' b*itchy?

[HKiddo]

Kiddo, what exactly is your situation? I guess I've missed it? Is he saying he wants to leave his W and come to you?

 

Originally he didn't think he could leave his wife but he said he didn't realize how unhappy he was, and the fact that he was willing to cheat--he says he has never done that before--demonstrated to him that the marriage wasn't working and he didn't want to try to make it work anymore. She knows about us, that we love each other, as does his parents. They all want him to stay in the marriage. He thought about it, but we talked and discussed how it is actually more painful for everyone for him to stay in a marriage that he isn't committed to. He said he didn't have the energy or will to commit to that marriage anymore and wants to end it. He says he's 100% committed to working towards a future where we are together. (Empty words, I know.) We are not seeing each other, and have limited contact which is mostly just him saying ILY or "fighting for it."

 

I believe that life is not black and white, and that in general, it's not true that if anyone wants, they can just up and leave a relationship, especially a long and committed one like a marriage. My best friend's friend is getting married this summer, and actually was OW to her fiance, so I know it's possible, and happens (albeit rarely). From your experience, how do you see my situation as compared to yours?

[So happy together]

Are you trying to discredit her because she is a fbs? Decorative like so many of us here, wants to see women empowered and know their own worth and frankly a mm is not worth it and most of us want other woman to not make choices that hurt themselves or others. That is the message most of us seek to convey, regardless of the label we wear here. The forum is littered with stories of broken hearts, currently. It's not rocket science to see that.

 

LG, Nonononono... I really couldn't remember. I'm all for empowerment, I'm learning more and more to shut my mouth when someone has an opinion unless I SUPER disagree. I'm not very good at it, but trying. And trying to have a more open mind. I honestly just couldn't remember her story and her name gets mixed up in my mind with another poster so I always forget which is which is all.

[ComingInHot]

Wasn't meant as "snarky". More that because she writes so matter-of-fact, and in a mature fashion, I figured she was one of the few that Had taken the time to check the validity of the story from the source.

 

But it's funny You read it that way.

 

OP, if you read snarky , my apologies. Your writing suggests a well thought out execution of the facts**

 

But back ON Topic, my biggest concern is this time a part and if it will put you on a rollercoaster of emotions that you neither want Nor need.

Guard yourself HKiddo, okay?!?!!

[So happy together]

Originally he didn't think he could leave his wife but he said he didn't realize how unhappy he was, and the fact that he was willing to cheat--he says he has never done that before--demonstrated to him that the marriage wasn't working and he didn't want to try to make it work anymore. She knows about us, that we love each other, as does his parents. They all want him to stay in the marriage. He thought about it, but we talked and discussed how it is actually more painful for everyone for him to stay in a marriage that he isn't committed to. He said he didn't have the energy or will to commit to that marriage anymore and wants to end it. He says he's 100% committed to working towards a future where we are together. (Empty words, I know.) We are not seeing each other, and have limited contact which is mostly just him saying ILY or "fighting for it."

 

I believe that life is not black and white, and that in general, it's not true that if anyone wants, they can just up and leave a relationship, especially a long and committed one like a marriage. My best friend's friend is getting married this summer, and actually was OW to her fiance, so I know it's possible, and happens (albeit rarely). From your experience, how do you see my situation as compared to yours?

\

 

Man, I don't know enough about your situation to even try to make a stab in the dark guess. You have to remember, I'm pretty new at this too, we've only been in a R for 18 months. I gather from what people say here and other forums that my situation isn't much like the others. The only one that knows what will happen with you two, really is MM. Not even you know, because he holds all the cards. This is partly why they tell you to go away from him until he has left and is divorcing/divorced. It's a hard road, and the chance of you being hurt are huge. Take care of your heart, and be sure you are not letting him walk all over you.

 

It is my personal opinion that if you love him and he loves you, you feel that he is going to leave, then you can give it a little time and see. With my bf, I insisted on constant forward motion. I made sure he was moving forward to leaving and divorce. By that I don't mean that I made him do anything, I just made sure that I could see results.

 

And I did give him a deadline. If he hadn't reached it, I would have walked.

[HKiddo]

hkiddo - you have been in an affair for less than 3 months and you believe he is leaving his wife to be with you? Yikes! I don't believe that he packed his bags and was ready to leave and she made him stay.

 

Since you aren't married, you really don't know what it is like to end a marriage -- it isn't the same as breaking up with a boyfriend.

 

Did you know that most married couples argue? Yep, its true! Marriages have peaks and valley's. Its part of growing together as a couple. I've yet to meet a married couple who hasn't had an argument or fight. Doesn't mean they don't love each other; just means they have different views on things.

 

First, and most importantly, what hockey team are you a fan of? Have you been enjoying the playoffs?

 

In response to your post, I understand that most married couples argue. Well most couples argue, so I assume married ones do as well. Of course, it's not the argument (or even frequency/intensity) but the approach those people take. Some couples move on, even if they're furious. Others seem more deflated, and resigned to the situation that they are really unhappy and can't make the other person happy either. From my pre-A judgment, and the judgment of our mutual friends, he seemed to be part of the latter group.

 

Three months is a short time, and you are completely right to underscore that because to me that is actually the most worrisome factor to me about my delusional I could be at this moment even if I don't feel it. I will say that we experienced one extremely traumatic event and but also broke a historical record together during that time. Those are the type of things that psychologically binds you to people and while it's not a basis for a relationship, it has made the connection feel that much more intense. I'm unsure if that means the connection is more or less reliable but I see an argument for both. Does that change your view of the short time at all?

[canuckprincess]

He can't work on his marriage and still be talking to/seeing you.

 

He may not want to "save his marriage" it sounds to me like he just wants to stay in his marriage and have you on the side. That my dear is classic cake eating. Get out while you can.

[spice4life]

Actually, if a MM is going to leave for someone they feel a true connection with they usually make that decision within the first six months. So I think the odds are more in your favor than the ones that linger on for years. The more time that goes by the odds get worse and worse.

 

Judge him by his actions and not his words. If you feel a huge deficit between his actions and what he's actually telling then it's time to reaccess and look out for yourself.

[HKiddo]

Wasn't meant as "snarky". More that because she writes so matter-of-fact, and in a mature fashion, I figured she was one of the few that Had taken the time to check the validity of the story from the source.

 

But it's funny You read it that way.

 

OP, if you read snarky , my apologies. Your writing suggests a well thought out execution of the facts**

 

But back ON Topic, my biggest concern is this time a part and if it will put you on a rollercoaster of emotions that you neither want Nor need.

Guard yourself HKiddo, okay?!?!!

 

ComingInHot, thank you for the concern. I really appreciate it. I feel that the vast majority of people on here, regardless of how they respond, come from the standpoint of empowerment that LadyGrey mentioned, and I'm really glad you did too. The whole point of these forums, I think, is that we're so emotionally involved, we can't think clearly, so the opinions of others are really helpful for grounding our decisions. As I mentioned, I haven't verified most of the details. I do think it's good for me to keep in mind always that there is the possibility that most of what he tells me are lies and thank you for reminding me.

 

I don't need/want a rollercoaster of emotions, but I do think that once in a while, in a few cases, those rides are worth it. It would be delusional of me to believe that I'm one of those lucky few but I can't say I don't hope for it. And I'm trying to get a more accurate picture of what those success stories (and disaster stories) look like, and how it compares to mine. Chances are though, LadyGrey is right and it won't work out regardless. But general statistics can't explain specific phenomenons. I will try to heed your advice and guard myself nevertheless. Thank you

[spice4life]

I also wanted to add to my previous post by saying that making the decision to leave in the first six months is positive, but the process to move out could take longer. There is a lot that has to take place before it happens, so the actual leaving will take longer.

 

Again, it all comes down to actions and whether or not they match up with what he is telling you.

[HKiddo]

\

 

Man, I don't know enough about your situation to even try to make a stab in the dark guess. You have to remember, I'm pretty new at this too, we've only been in a R for 18 months. I gather from what people say here and other forums that my situation isn't much like the others. The only one that knows what will happen with you two, really is MM. Not even you know, because he holds all the cards. This is partly why they tell you to go away from him until he has left and is divorcing/divorced. It's a hard road, and the chance of you being hurt are huge. Take care of your heart, and be sure you are not letting him walk all over you.

 

It is my personal opinion that if you love him and he loves you, you feel that he is going to leave, then you can give it a little time and see. With my bf, I insisted on constant forward motion. I made sure he was moving forward to leaving and divorce. By that I don't mean that I made him do anything, I just made sure that I could see results.

 

And I did give him a deadline. If he hadn't reached it, I would have walked.

 

Do you mind letting me know how you made sure you could see results to ensure the constant forward motion? That is something that MM and I have talked about and thus far, what he has offered me is that in April they spoke seriously about divorce but she still thought she could fix it and tried to change things that didn't work. In April, they began to talk about an effective date because of the logistics. She insisted at the end of the year so she can travel with him for the next 6 months. He insisted on sooner, and before he leaves for the Netherlands in July. That hasn't been resolved. I'm not sure if that counts as motion, or reliable motion. Especially as everyone has pointed out, I only have his word for it.

 

If you don't mind, I'd also like to know the time you gave him. I do believe that timelines never work as ultimatums but I think it's a good parameter for when I feel that I emotionally cannot handle this anymore.

[HKiddo]

I also wanted to add to my previous post by saying that making the decision to leave in the first six months is positive, but the process to move out could take longer. There is a lot that has to take place before it happens, so the actual leaving will take longer.

 

Again, it all comes down to actions and whether or not they match up with what he is telling you.

 

Yes, of course. Actions are important. He claims he has made the decision. I know this is not an easy process, and I don't expect anyone to be able to immediately be able to do anything, but what do you propose might be good benchmarks to determine whether his actions are living up to his words? One main thing I appreciated was that he told his best friends he was in love with me, as it made me feel like our love was more "real." Not in whether he or I felt it, but that others could be testament to its existence. It also helped that his two best friends immediately thought we had a connection.

[HKiddo]

He may not want to "save his marriage" it sounds to me like he just wants to stay in his marriage and have you on the side. That my dear is classic cake eating. Get out while you can.

 

It's true, saving a marriage requires an impetus that staying in a marriage doesn't. I believe he wants to end the marriage but I'm not sure that want is enough to overcome the pain and messiness of ending a marriage. Is that still cake-eating? Does it matter?

[So happy together]

Do you mind letting me know how you made sure you could see results to ensure the constant forward motion? That is something that MM and I have talked about and thus far, what he has offered me is that in April they spoke seriously about divorce but she still thought she could fix it and tried to change things that didn't work. In April, they began to talk about an effective date because of the logistics. She insisted at the end of the year so she can travel with him for the next 6 months. He insisted on sooner, and before he leaves for the Netherlands in July. That hasn't been resolved. I'm not sure if that counts as motion, or reliable motion. Especially as everyone has pointed out, I only have his word for it.

 

If you don't mind, I'd also like to know the time you gave him. I do believe that timelines never work as ultimatums but I think it's a good parameter for when I feel that I emotionally cannot handle this anymore.

 

 

My timeline was not really for him, it was for me. I did inform him that if I didn't see motion I would walk, but it was more for me. I had to have an end goal, and honestly, he needed to know that I meant it.

 

As far as forward motion, it was those types of things you mentioned. Of course there will be setbacks, such as them not agreeing on the timeline etc. I began with watching to see if he was making plans to leave. Not just talking about leaving, but doing concrete things such as separating bank accounts, planning for his offices being moved to another city, and of course, letting her know. He did begin telling her he was unhappy, where before he just said nothing and suffered. He separated the money things that he could (some has to wait for the divorce to be final). He told his parents, he talked with his priest, he was honest. He was in the middle of these things when he was found out, told the truth and left. Since then, I still watch, making sure that what he says (that he loves me, wants me, we are working toward a future) matches with his actions (he's seeing a therapist, he has told his family, friends, therapist etc. about us and our plans). I don't push him to do anything. I just make sure that he is still going forward. If he began stagnating or going backward, I'd find out why. I make sure that the lines of communication are always open with us and if there is a problem, he can talk to me and I won't freak out. Lol.

 

Other than that, I don't know. I just make sure we have the same goals and that I am doing my part and I can see he is doing his.

[Mount]

Apparently it is true. OWs or OMs with strong mind and got result that being with MMs or MWs ARE BUSY IN REAL LIFE DOING THINGS - planning and living lives, not here posting, blogging, venting grudges...etc.

 

People win do things REAL, not just talking talking talking, or posting posting posting. But because we are too busy in working, in relationsihp...not wasting time here.

 

 

Are you trying to discredit her because she is a fbs? Decorative like so many of us here, wants to see women empowered and know their own worth and frankly a mm is not worth it and most of us want other woman to not make choices that hurt themselves or others. That is the message most of us seek to convey, regardless of the label we wear here. The forum is littered withstories of broken hearts, currently. It's not rocket science to see that.

[spice4life]

Yes, of course. Actions are important. He claims he has made the decision. I know this is not an easy process, and I don't expect anyone to be able to immediately be able to do anything, but what do you propose might be good benchmarks to determine whether his actions are living up to his words? One main thing I appreciated was that he told his best friends he was in love with me, as it made me feel like our love was more "real." Not in whether he or I felt it, but that others could be testament to its existence. It also helped that his two best friends immediately thought we had a connection.

 

Getting the best friends approval is huge for you as a couple. Big PROPs for that accomplishment! Personally, I don't see why he wouldn't take a big step before leaving for the Netherlands. If he truly means what he says then why take his wife to the Netherlands with him for six months? I could be wrong, but it seems to me being in the Netherlands for six months without her would be a great time for him to adjust to the decision of leaving in the first place. It will give him the time and space he needs from her and it will give him the opportuity to slowly start integrating you into his life.

 

That is my guess. I haven't actually gone through this, but that seems to make the most sense to me. Maybe a few of the others, who have actually gone through this, can chime in to say whether I'm being realistic or not. At the very least, he has to show some kind of solid progress before he leaves in July, so you aren't left behind driving yourself crazy with doubts. Being away for six months is bad enough, but to not have any sign he is being true to his word by then will drive you crazy with worry. That is my thought.

 

I hope this helps!