When Does Gaslighting Become Abusive?

[imtooconfused]

The question that I pose to the forum today is when does gaslighting become abusive? Because of this forum, I have learned about gaslighting and recognize the following behaviors (those behaviors that I am reasonably certain are gaslighting):

 

• Half-truths – Mentioning only part of the story while withholding other details.
  
• Selective memory – Forgetting things others find important while remembering the smallest details about other things.
  
• Twisting one’s memory – Making up a completely alternate memory of events to eliminate someone else’s involvement in a good event (or transferring involvement in a bad event).
  
• Putting words in your mouth – Changing the meaning of what someone else said or the actual words the other person used in the conversation.
  
• Diminishing their negative traits – Pointing out someone else’s negative trait (anger) while refusing to acknowledge their own trait.
  
• Trivializing someone else’s feelings – While at the same time highlighting their own feelings.
  
• Disregarding all of the above by being “forgetful” or “having a lot on my mind”
  

I now recognize them for what they are and have built defense mechanisms, but it’s difficult some times when one is aware that they have an imperfect memory and have been mistaken in the past and thus justifiably second guess themselves when called into question by the gaslighter. Can one tell the line between an inadvertent self-interest and an intentional effort to distort?

[Downtown]

Can one tell the line between an inadvertent self-interest and an intentional effort to distort?

Confused, my experience is that telling the difference between a deliberate lie and a subconscious projection can be very difficult when the person has strong traits of a personality disorder (PD). If the person has strong Narcissistic PD or Antisocial PD traits, for example, you likely are seeing deliberate manipulation when the claims are false.

 

With BPD (Borderline PD), however, the false claims more likely are distortions arising from the person's subconscious, which protects the BPDer from seeing too much of reality by projecting hurtful feelings and thoughts onto you. BPDers will deliberately lie, however, if you get them cornered and they are desperate to avoid the painful experience of feeling shame. But teasing the lies apart from the disortions is very difficult.

 

With my BPDer exW, for example, I would have driven myself crazy if I had tried to do that. Generally, however, I found that she seemed to genuinely believe nearly all of the outrageous accusations coming out of her mouth. And, a week later when she was claiming exactly the opposite, she seemed to genuinely believe that too. This is why BPD is said to be a "thought disorder." It distorts one's perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations.

[Emilia]

I'm trying to think whether I experienced what can be called gaslighting as such... I don't think so but I think after a while it would have happened with my ex. As time progressed his projections became more and more hysterical - which is what makes me keep NC even though I'm concerned for him. I just don't want to distress him more by keeping in contact.

 

I call BPD thought disorder too. Once you realise that person's thought process, you see how utterly different their world is from what we perceive as reality.

[Forever Learning]

I lived 16 long, hard years of Gaslighting with a psychopath husband that I had 2 children with (now my ex-husband, we have joint custody of the kids, I would not wish this situation on anyone. Although, it is going surprisingly well, all things considered, now that we live separately).

 

I shall try to find some of the info I read about Gaslighting to share with you. But for now, I would tell you that Gaslighting is a very subtle thing that is hard to pinpoint. Please google "Gaslighing" and read all you can about it over the next few weeks. Learning about such things is a process, it takes time to grasp that some humans manipulate others with this type of subtle lying.

 

One clue is if you have seen this person lie and tell half truths to others on a consistant basis, then the odds are they will lie to you as well.

 

In my case (and in many cases), my ex-husband lied to me to keep me off balance, confused, insecure, and somewhat depressed. He also lied to me to make me think I was 'crazy', and to boost his own self-esteem by keeping me 'down' in life. He was (is) inherently insecure and gets boosts in his own self esteem by hurting others. His way of hurting me was to lie to me, confuse me, emotionally abuse me, etc.

 

The way I truly discovered the lies was by tapping his phone and eventually discovering the truth. This was back before cell phones were everywhere, and people still used land lines in homes. But that is how I really discovered his lies - because he was a very skillful liar, it took hard evidence to help me understand the scope of what I was dealing with.

 

I shall try to post some helpful links in a bit. Hang in there.

[imtooconfused]

Thank you to all who have posted. I don't think this situation is very clear cut. The most disorienting aspect is the changing of historical facts to fit a different (but incorrect) world-view, especially the obstinacy and anger when confronted with truth. This is what led me to suspect gaslighting, the attempt to twist the mind, but it's rather clear the acts are not intention, but a misguided but sincere belief in their mind that their version of the world-view it the truth. Does this still fit gaslighting? All I know for certain, is that this person is pathologically controlling and self-centered.

 

Downtown, you were the first to mention BPD, and from what I have read on LS it might be a good fit, but not to a severe extent, borderline BPD if you will. But I have also read that only a trained counselor can reach that diagnosis. So all the speculation is really worthless because while this person creates depression and neuroses in those around them, they consider themselves to be the perfect picture of mental health.

[Downtown]

This is what led me to suspect gaslighting, the attempt to twist the mind, but it's rather clear the acts are not intention, but a misguided but sincere belief in their mind that their version of the world-view it the truth. Does this still fit gaslighting?

Strictly speaking, no, it does not fit the term "gaslighting." That term is taken from Gaslight, the classic 1944 movie in which the husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy. He does this by deliberately doing things to make her doubt her own sanity, e.g., by turning the gaslights down a tiny bit every day, all the while claiming that he is able to see and read just fine.

 

As I said above, that type of deliberate manipulation is characteristic of narcissists and sociopaths. But it is not a BPD trait. With BPDers, their feeling of self loathing and shame is so great that their subconscious minds create projections to keep their fragile egos from seeing too much of reality. Moreover, because they are unable to manage their emotions, they frequently experience intense emotions that distort their perception of other peoples' intentions.

 

Hence, when "gaslighting" is strictly defined to comport with the manipulation evident in the film, it does not include the unintentional misperceptions you describe. But, of course, you can define the term however you like. IME, many laymen use it to refer more broadly to all false claims, regardless of whether they are deliberate or not.

All I know for certain, is that this person is pathologically controlling and self-centered.

As I said, I regard BPDers to be very controlling but not manipulating. They are extremely controlling because they have such a great fear of abandonment. They typically are not good at manipulation because, lacking impulse control, they are far too reactive to whatever is happening at the moment. In contrast, manipulation -- to be successful -- requires careful planning and flawless execution.

 

Granted, you will see a small share of BPDers who are very manipulating. And you will see some BPDers who are tall and have blond hair. None of those traits, however, are BPD traits. As I said, the manipulation is a trait associated with narcissism and sociopathy. Because these disorders often overlap, it is not uncommon to see a BPDer who has some strong traits of NPD or AsPD.

I have also read that only a trained counselor can reach that diagnosis. So all the speculation is really worthless....

When you are trying to select a potential marriage partner, being able to spot the red flags for PDs is extremely valuable -- even though you cannot make a diagnosis. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD.

 

Moreover, you could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD.

 

Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur -- if you take time to read about them. That's why hundreds of the best hospitals and mental health clinics are trying to educate the lay public by describing the traits of BPD and other disorders on their public websites.

[robaday]

Yeah this had me disoriented and questioning my sanity for an awful long time.....ex called me abusive all the while threatening to assault me and continue sending abusive messages even though I begged her to stop.....she then asked me to meet up with her and i told her to go to hell, and she said i was a nasty little man.....

 

 

seriously if something makes you question your sanity, or puts you on edge to the extent your not sure if the other person or you should be locked up seriously just run

[Forever Learning]

Thank you to all who have posted. I don't think this situation is very clear cut.

 

 

 

 

The most disorienting aspect is the changing of historical facts to fit a different (but incorrect) world-view, especially the obstinacy and anger when confronted with truth.

 

 

 

 

This is what led me to suspect gaslighting, the attempt to twist the mind, but it's rather clear the acts are not intention, but a misguided but sincere belief in their mind that their version of the world-view it the truth. Does this still fit gaslighting?

 

 

All I know for certain, is that this person is pathologically controlling and self-centered.

 

Downtown, you were the first to mention BPD, and from what I have read on LS it might be a good fit, but not to a severe extent, borderline BPD if you will. But I have also read that only a trained counselor can reach that diagnosis.

 

So all the speculation is really worthless

 

 

 

because while this person creates depression and neuroses in those around them, they consider themselves to be the perfect picture of mental health.

 

 

"The most disorienting aspect is the changing of historical facts to fit a different (but incorrect) world-view, especially the obstinacy and anger when confronted with truth. "

 

I'm glad you said this because this rang a bell in my brain, it's a biggie.

 

People with personality disorders (whichever label they fall under but I know the Narcissists/Psychopaths for sure) love to:

 

"Re-Write History",

 

 

to put themselves in a good light, when they talk about something from the past.

 

My ex-husband, and his mother who is also a psychopath, always do this.

 

It is an emotionally immature person who won't take personal responsibility for their fault in situations, and their view of how it all 'went down' is always really weird/whacked out.

 

Just run for the hills, don't waste time with these people, they can't change, they can only deceive, including therapists, clergy, AA Meetings, whatever they go to where they have to try to 'come clean' and change.

 

They don't change, they can't change, they are really mentally ill, their messed up personalities were formed very early in life and it can't be changed.

 

But they will try to pretend/act like they have changed, to buy time in a relationship. Keep that in mind as well.

[Forever Learning]

Yeah this had me disoriented and questioning my sanity for an awful long time.....ex called me abusive all the while threatening to assault me and continue sending abusive messages even though I begged her to stop.....she then asked me to meet up with her and i told her to go to hell, and she said i was a nasty little man.....

 

 

seriously if something makes you question your sanity, or puts you on edge to the extent your not sure if the other person or you should be locked up seriously just run

 

 

"seriously if something makes you question your sanity, or puts you on edge to the extent your not sure if the other person or you should be locked up seriously just run"

 

Truer words never spoken! Yes, don't waste time, just RUN and don't look back. Great point!

[Forever Learning]

Strictly speaking, no, it does not fit the term "gaslighting." That term is taken from Gaslight, the classic 1944 movie in which the husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy. He does this by deliberately doing things to make her doubt her own sanity, e.g., by turning the gaslights down a tiny bit every day, all the while claiming that he is able to see and read just fine.

 

As I said above, that type of deliberate manipulation is characteristic of narcissists and sociopaths. But it is not a BPD trait. With BPDers, their feeling of self loathing and shame is so great that their subconscious minds create projections to keep their fragile egos from seeing too much of reality. Moreover, because they are unable to manage their emotions, they frequently experience intense emotions that distort their perception of other peoples' intentions.

 

Hence, when "gaslighting" is strictly defined to comport with the manipulation evident in the film, it does not include the unintentional misperceptions you describe. But, of course, you can define the term however you like. IME, many laymen use it to refer more broadly to all false claims, regardless of whether they are deliberate or not.As I said, I regard BPDers to be very controlling but not manipulating. They are extremely controlling because they have such a great fear of abandonment. They typically are not good at manipulation because, lacking impulse control, they are far too reactive to whatever is happening at the moment. In contrast, manipulation -- to be successful -- requires careful planning and flawless execution.

 

Granted, you will see a small share of BPDers who are very manipulating. And you will see some BPDers who are tall and have blond hair. None of those traits, however, are BPD traits. As I said, the manipulation is a trait associated with narcissism and sociopathy. Because these disorders often overlap, it is not uncommon to see a BPDer who has some strong traits of NPD or AsPD.When you are trying to select a potential marriage partner, being able to spot the red flags for PDs is extremely valuable -- even though you cannot make a diagnosis. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD.

 

Moreover, you could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD.

 

Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur -- if you take time to read about them. That's why hundreds of the best hospitals and mental health clinics are trying to educate the lay public by describing the traits of BPD and other disorders on their public websites.

 

This is such EXCELLENT insight and advice! Thank you SO MUCH Downtown! I just love it. So well done. Totally awesome, so easy to understand. Really good stuff.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I enjoyed reading that.

[robaday]

You know something though? I think we do have a sixth sense about things early on.....its so strange, so many times with this girl, I just got this vibe, just something undefinable which put me on edge, she was at the start at least lovely and loving, but there was always something very strange that used to make me step back occasionally and think "that was weird", at least in the 1st year it was nothing in particular but this weird shiver I would have occasionally

 

Do you think we have a sixth sense? an intuition? a human instinct? because I look back and wonder why didnt pay more attention to it. The complete lack of boundaries was the main one

[Forever Learning]

You know something though? I think we do have a sixth sense about things early on.....its so strange, so many times with this girl, I just got this vibe, just something undefinable which put me on edge, she was at the start at least lovely and loving, but there was always something very strange that used to make me step back occasionally and think "that was weird", at least in the 1st year it was nothing in particular but this weird shiver I would have occasionally

 

Do you think we have a sixth sense? an intuition? a human instinct? because I look back and wonder why didnt pay more attention to it. The complete lack of boundaries was the main one

 

There is a book about it, I forget the title but something along the lines of "The Gift Of Fear" (I'll try to look it up) but anyhow the author says we overlook our inherent bells going off (red flags) about a person, but these red flags are instinct hard wired in us to protect us. We overlook the gut instincts because we are dumb dumbs 'looking for love'. But it isn't love, it's lots of other toxic garbage, but love doesn't set off alarm bells and red flags. Good point.

[Emilia]

Thanks for the PM Downtown! If you want me to respond you have to make room for messages in your inbox

[M30USA]

In attempt to be objective, don't you think ALL people have "red flags"? We are all human. Plus, more importantly, each of us differs in our expectations of a future spouse. If it's not BPD-related red flags, it could be "he isn't motivated enough" or "she was a bit spoiled as a child", etc. My point is that, if everyone avoided people with these red flags, the human race would go extinct. Unless of course you believe there are various levels of red flags and ones which ARE workable and ones which AREN'T workable.

[Downtown]

Thanks for the PM Downtown! If you want me to respond you have to make room for messages in your inbox

Sorry about that, Emilia. I made space.

[imtooconfused]

In attempt to be objective, don't you think ALL people have "red flags"? We are all human. Plus, more importantly, each of us differs in our expectations of a future spouse. If it's not BPD-related red flags, it could be "he isn't motivated enough" or "she was a bit spoiled as a child", etc. My point is that, if everyone avoided people with these red flags, the human race would go extinct. Unless of course you believe there are various levels of red flags and ones which ARE workable and ones which AREN'T workable.

 

There are yellow flags and there are red flags. And I agree it's quite often difficult to distinguish between them until you are in the middle of it all.

[Downtown]

Don't you think ALL people have "red flags"? ....Unless of course you believe there are various levels of red flags.

Yes, the "levels" -- as you say -- make all the difference in the world. With BPD traits, for example, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of those traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, the traits are basic human behaviors that we all exhibit to some degree. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means we all differ only by degree.

 

At low levels, the BPD traits can be beneficial because they arise from primitive ego defenses we all need to survive childhood -- and occasionally need throughout adulthood. These traits become a problem only when they are so strong that they start to distort one's perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations, thereby undermining one's ability to sustain LTRs.

 

Hence, when I say that it is important to learn how to spot the BPD "red flags," I am referring to our being able to spot strong occurrences of those traits. Once you learn what traits are on the BPD list of symptoms, it is not difficult to spot the warning signs. There is nothing subtle about strong verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and irrational jealousy.

[imtooconfused]

Again, I want to thank everyone for their feedback and I will take your advice to heart. But as my original question alludes to, the situation that I find myself in is not at all clear cut, and it would be pointless to apply labels to this behavior or that one. Furthermore, there are significant complications that prevent me from "running to the hills." But I have been and will continue to be on guard for behaviors that are destructive to my psyche.

 

One item from the above conversation, though, left me a bit confused...

 

They typically are not good at manipulation because, lacking impulse control, they are far too reactive to whatever is happening at the moment. In contrast, manipulation -- to be successful -- requires careful planning and flawless execution.

 

My experience is that the person doing the controlling would use manipulation in order to exert and maintain control. I guess it kind of depends on how you would describe manipulation, but it is my belief that weaknesses are usually consciously (or subconsciously) exploited to twist the controllee to behave in the desired manner, which in my mind would be considered manipulation. For some people, this just comes naturally. Again, maybe it's a matter of semantics.

[Downtown]

My experience is that the person doing the controlling would use manipulation in order to exert and maintain control.... maybe it's a matter of semantics.

Yes, semantics. I believe we're both trying to say the same thing. My point is that, when you find a BPDer who is very manipulative, that manipulation is more accurately described as an NPD or AsPD trait. A recent study found that most BPDers also exhibit strong traits of one or more additional PDs (in addition to the BPD). Hence, seeing a BPDer behaving in a certain manner does not necessarily mean that this particular trait is a "BPD trait."

 

I nonetheless concede that -- due to their abandonment fear -- BPDers tend to be very controlling. Yet, because they are so reactive to momentary feelings, I don't consider that controlling behavior to constitute "manipulation" but many folks do not make this distinction. Certainly, there is nothing wrong in defining all controlling behavior to be "manipulation" if you want to.