Question for OW about the lies of the MM

[Spark1111]

not to hurt anyone's feelings....but I am with Quiet Storm on this....

 

After DDay, one of the things that hurt me the most is my H's continued initiating of sex with me....I wondered if IT WAS A RUSE to throw me off track during his affair.

 

his response? Oh no! I always wanted to f you. So we went from three and four times a week, down to two and I chalked it up to new job stress.

 

meanwhile, his OW asked him if we were still having sex and he told her rarely to never and when we did, it was so boring.

 

She was so disappointed in that, so he told her never, no more.

 

She suggested I must then have a boyfriend, and he started to believe her!

 

IF that isn't the height of delusional thinking, I do not know what is! Or, an example of whatever lies it takes.....to get some more!

 

In our entire married life, the longest we went without sex was thirteen days after his back surgery, and that includes birthing three children!

 

if I initiated? he never, not once, could deny me and missed more than a few trains to work because of it.

 

be careful what you are told and what you choose to believe when you cannot check with the source.

[bambiwboone]

Mine was back and forth. I knew he "loved" his wife. They had a history and children together. But I knew he was not "in love" with his wife. He would say he wanted me to move in with him, ask about my kids, we would talk about how we would work our life out together. His mood would be based on his home situation or our situation and it got old fast. We have had an on and off again affair for two years. Both married, I am now seperated and heartbroken. He is with his wife.

[bambiwboone]

I believe he is having sex with her. My rule of thumb was never to ask. If he even tried to talk about it I would change the topic. I didn't want to know anything about her. It's as if she didn't exist. I played the delusion out well in my head. To the point I would see her and not even connect the fact that her husband was seeing me too.

[Spark1111]

I believe he is having sex with her. My rule of thumb was never to ask. If he even tried to talk about it I would change the topic. I didn't want to know anything about her. It's as if she didn't exist. I played the delusion out well in my head. To the point I would see her and not even connect the fact that her husband was seeing me too.

 

Well then....you are a realist. be proud of that fact. And denying the existence of the wife, or pretending it is of no import, is common. it allows you to continue in the affair.

 

You are honest to admit that. Some never do.

 

I am sorry for your pain.

[bambiwboone]

I know what I did was wrong. My pain was self inflicted but it doesn't make it less real. Friends and family warned me, I thought my situation was the exception. I thought it was okay because she was so bad to him, in reality he was a POS to her and me. He even said that at one point. I think anyone seeing someone who is married has to live in some sort of fairy tale fake world. No one is the exception, and most of the time the wife will take him back. As affairs can do two things, show what needs to be left/divorce or show what areas need to be fixed. His wife told me that she will make her marriage work and I will never have him back. Then they will have a honeymoon phase..by the time that's over and he's so excited he got away with it you or him will be over it. I think that made it clear that was that.

[Got it]

Your values (your own) are applied universally. In other words, applied in all situations. If you value marriage, you can't respect the marriage of your parents and disrespect the marriage of your neighbours. You can't claim to value marriage as an institution and have an A with a MM without setting aside that value.

 

Support is an entirely different thing. And I was referring to personal values, not societal ones.

 

And I disagree that this principle is universal.

 

A society says "thou shall not kill" yet has death penalty. That is not a universal value then because you are either against killing or you are not.

 

Or a person who supports the death penalty but is anti-abortion.

 

Yes many humans have conflicting or overlapping values. I am against eating meat but yet I do wear leather especially in the sport I compete. While I don't like to use animal by products, leather is the best material for this sport so because of that it overrides my personal belief in killing animals or benefiting off of their killing.

 

Anyway this may be a threadjack that should be it's own thread. But an interesting topic nonetheless.

[grassisorisntgreener]

I am kind of on the other side of this. He has a gf (they don't live together) and I am married. I tell him a lot of the things I am reading on here. But they aren't lies. I want to be with him. I want out of my marriage..but much like the men that stay, I feel completely stuck. It isn't that my marriage is all that unhappy, but there is absolutely no romantic feelings, and that is what I need. My OM is all I want. I want to raise my family with him and be with him forever, but I feel stuck. Completely stuck.

[Nattie]

Wondering how many of you OW were swept into a lot of lies by your exMM/MM/OM that made the relationship more intense. For example, did he say he was going to divorce? Wanted to be with you? Wanted to marry you? Wanted to have kids with you? Were his soulmate? Were his "real" wife? What types of things did he do to "prove" his love to you?

 

How long was your affair? Who ended it? Why?

 

MM has tried to sneak into discussion that he has every intention of getting a divorce, but I won't even hear it. I don't want it to get to the point where we are planning on being together as an actual couple. It'a slmost like he's trying to justify what he's doing, but I don't want him to leave his family for me, I certainly wouldn't leave mine for him.

[grassisorisntgreener]

It's called cake eating, very common for the married person. You want both and you control both with secrets and lies. You keep your husband in the dark, getting what you want from him when it suits you, at the same time manipulating your om to get what you want from him. You are the puppeteer and as long as they don't know you are pulling their strings, the game goes on, because you don't want to give up either one. But......If the truth comes out, one or both of them may remove themselves from the game.

 

This is a very generalized statement, and not at all what is going on in my own life.

 

My situation boils down to me being a coward and not having the courage to tell my husband that I am done.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

It's called cake eating, very common for the married person. You want both and you control both with secrets and lies. You keep your husband in the dark, getting what you want from him when it suits you, at the same time manipulating your om to get what you want from him. You are the puppeteer and as long as they don't know you are pulling their strings, the game goes on, because you don't want to give up either one. But......If the truth comes out, one or both of them may remove themselves from the game.

 

This is true - women can be cake eaters too. It's the fear of the unknown that keeps women where they are as well, which is why most affairs die a natural death even if they aren't discovered. Men do not leave and it sounds like you aren't going anywhere either.

[Goodbye]

This is a very generalized statement, and not at all what is going on in my own life.

 

My situation boils down to me being a coward and not having the courage to tell my husband that I am done.

 

 

What do you fear will happen if you tell your H that you need out?

[Nattie]

My MM tells me everything, which I kinda like. We didn't start this under any false pretenses. We will both openly talk about our spouse, and he's said numerous times "I'll text you tomorrow, going out to dinner with the fam now". We really do act like we're just friends, until we get alone in a room together.

[findingnemo]

And I disagree that this principle is universal.

 

A society says "thou shall not kill" yet has death penalty. That is not a universal value then because you are either against killing or you are not.

 

Or a person who supports the death penalty but is anti-abortion.

 

Yes many humans have conflicting or overlapping values. I am against eating meat but yet I do wear leather especially in the sport I compete. While I don't like to use animal by products, leather is the best material for this sport so because of that it overrides my personal belief in killing animals or benefiting off of their killing.

 

Anyway this may be a threadjack that should be it's own thread. But an interesting topic nonetheless.

 

A very interesting one indeed. Perhaps the whole confusion about values is what leads people to have As while wanting to stay M!!

[MissBee]

Because sex is what most married people do. Many MM enjoy sex with BW. Even if it's missionary, it's still a connection for mutual pleasure. MM just want different sex with a different person because it's more exciting for them.

 

One of my favorite comedies is Ace Ventura, Pet Detective. I've probably watched it 100 times over my lifetime. I know what's going to happen next. There's no mystery. But I crack up laughing every time. Why? Because I like it. It's funny. People do seek excitement & new experiences, but they also find comfort in the familiar & the routine. With many MM, history & comfort trump excitement (if they must choose).

 

OW sex is often extra sex. In addition to their married sex.

 

It's like taking a vacation. Or eating desert. Or renting a fancy car when yours is in the shop.

 

You can still love your house, even though you love being on vacation. You can still love meatloaf & potatoes, even if you love cake, too. You can still love your old car, and also enjoy a new one.

 

Some OW think it must be either/ or. If MM loves OW and have sex with OW, then he doesn't love BW or have sex with BW. If he's attracted to OW, then it means he's not attracted to BW. If he's cheating on BW, then he doesn't want to be married to BW.

 

Many MM love his wife AND the OW. Sexually, there are things they love to do with BW, and there are things they love to with OW. BW may have certain sexual skills, OW may have other ones. He may love BW's boobs, & love OW's legs. It's not a competition to see who meets MM's needs the best. It is a collaboration, a combined effort. OW and BW are both meeting different needs & offering different positive qualities.

 

Many women say they cannot romantically love more than one man at a time. If they love their OM, often their sexual feelings for their husband fade. If most women are like this, it's understandable why many OW assume that MM feels the same. And men know this... they know that all women want to be "the one", the primary relationship. So they allow both BW and OW to make assumptions & draw conclusions. (and most people assume & conclude based on their own feelings, what they would do).

Many men are capable of romantically loving more than one woman. They can appreciate & enjoy the qualities of each woman, simutaneously. I call it "a la carte"...getting different needs met by different people.

 

Such a great post!

 

I think many MM/MW in affairs don't even have to lie point blank, but simply allow the OW/OM to draw conclusions, which they neither confirm or deny. I think my exAP did this. He didn't out and out lie to my face, he simply didn't say certain things, knowing that I'd just naturally come to certain conclusion.

 

The vacation analogy is one I've used before as well. It makes perfect sense (and no every A won't fit this, before anyone points this out, but a lot of them do). I love vacations, nice hotels, spas, restaurants, sites etc. But even after all that, generally, I'm happy to go home and be in my own space, which I know well, and is comforting to me. I have no intention of selling my house to go live on a resort and funnily, if you were to do that, you'd need a vacation from that vacation spot too when it becomes your regular home. Vacations are only as good as they are temporary or there is a "home" to return to. Most like vacations and enjoy it tremendously while there and it takes one's mind off their regular life, but doesn't mean one hates one's regular life and routine. People generally like their life and routines but need a break from it sometimes.

 

Human beings are capable of liking and enjoying more than one person simultaneously. I think when we're newly in love it is harder for us to spread our romantic affection and attention around, as it's often very intense in the beginning and you're so focused on one person; however, with time, your capacity to make romantic connections with others can increase, because your attention is not as zoomed in on your spouse/bf/gf. I don't believe that once you marry you will never again find someone you're attracted to or meet a person who is a potential match for you. There is no "ONE"...but a few people whom you could be happy with and it is indeed possible to meet another of your "ones" while married. Monogamy though is choosing to not act on your other romantic inclinations. Some people choose open Ms which gives them an honest way to follow up on these feelings...others choose secret affairs.

 

In many open Ms (wish woinlove was here to chime in about her own), the marriage is explicitly the primary relationship, even if the couple chooses to take other lovers, and this is understood. I think in As, it is often the exact same, except because it is not open, MM/MW either lie or allow the OW/OM to draw conclusions that the marriage is some sham/not primary/on it's last leg/they don't have sex/love but aren't in love etc. Granted, some MM/MW tell the OW/OM explicitly that they will never leave their spouse and still love them and it will only be casual...some APs can agree to this, some agree then their feelings change, or some ignore it and believe that they can get them to change their minds.

 

Reality is, in most As, the M is often very much still the primary relationship and there is still sex and enjoyment and comfort therein and the A is in addition to, not a replacement for and often won't be a relationship which graduates to the primary one upon a divorce. Some do yes, but many don't, and one should probably assess where one's A stands. Is it an A as a supplement and will always be an A, as much as the MP loves/cares for the AP, or is it an exit A where they are looking to leave their marriage?

[findingnemo]

I am kind of on the other side of this. He has a gf (they don't live together) and I am married. I tell him a lot of the things I am reading on here. But they aren't lies. I want to be with him. I want out of my marriage..but much like the men that stay, I feel completely stuck. It isn't that my marriage is all that unhappy, but there is absolutely no romantic feelings, and that is what I need. My OM is all I want. I want to raise my family with him and be with him forever, but I feel stuck. Completely stuck.

 

Why do you think you're stuck? What do you fear may happen if you were to leave and be with the man you love?

Edited May 22, 2013 by findingnemo
Tyop

[Praying4Peace]

Why do you think you're stuck? What do you fear may happen if you were to leave and be with the man you love?

 

Grass- I fear that you'll lose both of them. Men aren't as forgiving as women...both as the H and the OM. If things come out your H will be disgustedd and you'll have to go 'save that'. While you 'save that' your OM will be disgusted and angry with you. At some point you'll have to choose. If you choose your H, and things don't work out- your OM won't wait. Basically its better to make a decision of what you want now and either way that relationship has a higher chance of working out. Don't be afraid.

[ThatJustHappened]

This debate occurred for a century in ethics between Kant (who was a universalist) and mills (who was a utilitarianist).

 

Mills responded to kantian universalism about being honest always being universally ethical: "if someone came looking to kill an innocent person who was hiding, when asked by the would be killer, would you reveal the hiding spot of the would be victim?" This question reveals it IS okay to lie depending on: WHAT does the greater amount of good.

 

Also know that under his arguments affairs are wrong because entire families are being deeply wounded for the mere pleasure of only two people.

 

The hedonistic calculus scale is what most ethicists use and on that scale lying is ONLY ethical if it Protects more than harms. The WS can't say he is "protecting" spouse from harm because reality is he is PREVENTING pursuit of happiness of harmed BS.

 

On that same scale capital punishment is okay if it PREVENTS more harm.

 

I was just about to say all of this but I got distracted by something shiny...

[Ladydrib]

Wondering how many of you OW were swept into a lot of lies by your exMM/MM/OM that made the relationship more intense. For example, did he say he was going to divorce? Wanted to be with you? Wanted to marry you? Wanted to have kids with you? Were his soulmate? Were his "real" wife? What types of things did he do to "prove" his love to you?

 

How long was your affair? Who ended it? Why?

 

He initiated the "I am leaving" talk and he always talked about how he had zero interest in his wife and wanted to leave and was going to leave but had all this crap to do before he could leave. I always wanted to stop but I was so lonely in general that giving up the friendship I had with him was unbearable and so I would stop but then I would get weak and run back. But I continued to try to end it. Again and again and again. The problem was that he was always there waiting for me to say, let's go ahead and just go ahead and see each other. All he had to do is wait a minimal amout of time for my heart to hurt and I'd be right back. He did constantly talk about a future of us together. His wife found out and she has forgiven him but he is not committed to her. He is still lying to her and would go out with me in a heartbeat. I find it rather disturbing. The entire thing. But especially now that she knows and he although he elected to stay he has not even shown one bit of recommitting. It's hard to part with his friendship but the way I see it is that I have to.

[Got it]

This debate occurred for a century in ethics between Kant (who was a universalist) and mills (who was a utilitarianist).

 

Mills responded to kantian universalism about being honest always being universally ethical: "if someone came looking to kill an innocent person who was hiding, when asked by the would be killer, would you reveal the hiding spot of the would be victim?" This question reveals it IS okay to lie depending on: WHAT does the greater amount of good.

 

Also know that under his arguments affairs are wrong because entire families are being deeply wounded for the mere pleasure of only two people.

 

The hedonistic calculus scale is what most ethicists use and on that scale lying is ONLY ethical if it Protects more than harms. The WS can't say he is "protecting" spouse from harm because reality is he is PREVENTING pursuit of happiness of harmed BS.

 

On that same scale capital punishment is okay if it PREVENTS more harm.

 

AS - great points. I don't want to threadjack here but interested in starting another thread on it? I have to dust off my knowledge of Mills as that was many moons ago in college, but great points. But it is a very grey way of thinking to believe that "for the greater good" some values may be set aside. And my point that there are very little, if any, universal values that transcend all things.

 

(And no I am not arguing for a positive excuse on why having an affair is better for everyone. )