Author Zapbasket Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) GC, thought I'd bring this up again. Does it sound familiar, not only in his actions but yours? Yes. To me, the dynamic looks like this: Him: [Doing behavior I have told him numerous times hurts me] Me: [Telling him, again, it hurts me and asking him, again, to stop] Him: [Telling me I'm oversensitive / overreacting / misreading his intent / "being dumb," etc.] Me: [Getting hurt, then indignant, then angry that he has negated my feelings] Him: [suddenly paying attention when I'm at the end of my rope, angry, and telling me I'm "nagging" him all the time, telling him "what he's not" and emphasizing that rather than "what he is"] And on, and on. And at the end of it all, I feel depressed, because at heart I am not a nag; I don't want to be one. Edit re: your (tbf's) edit: I want to do that, to not respond at all. But I feel like that just keeps me in limbo, hoping in spite of myself, feeling hurt in spite of myself, and then by the time he finally does make contact, IF he does (and he probably will, if for no other reason than his mom will end up insisting--and yeah, I'm aware that that's a strange dynamic, too), I will be angry and down and it just continues this miserable dynamic. Edited May 23, 2013 by GreenCove Link to post Share on other sites
tbf Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 If you honestly need to end it, consider this: "While I know you're testing me and I do love you, I can't do this anymore. It's time for me to accept that we're not compatible so it's time to move forward in my life. Take care of yourself." Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 If you honestly need to end it, consider this: "While I know you're testing me and I do love you, I can't do this anymore. It's time for me to accept that we're not compatible so it's time to move forward in my life. Take care of yourself." What's your thinking in suggesting this? I.e., what will this accomplish versus what I already have as a possible response? I don't think *we* are fundamentally incompatible; but I do think our timetables and relationship expectations are incompatible. Link to post Share on other sites
tbf Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 What's your thinking in suggesting this? I.e., what will this accomplish versus what I already have as a possible response? I don't think *we* are fundamentally incompatible; but I do think our timetables and relationship expectations are incompatible.The more you write, the more it provides him with fodder to restart the control cycle by telling you how irrational you are. Actually, I get the impression you want to restart the control cycle by using break up to jump to steps five and six, hoping he'll come around if you warn him you're at the end. This is why I suggested that you not respond at all. In doing so, the control cycle doesn't restart since you're doing something different. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 The more you write, the more it provides him with fodder to restart the control cycle by telling you how irrational you are. This is why I suggested that you not respond at all. In doing so, the control cycle doesn't restart since you're doing something different. Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I think that's why I feel placed in a difficult position. By ending things, I want to end the cycle, not add more fodder to the cycle. And it does seem that by emailing, no matter what I say, it will continue the cycle for him. Eg, "I can't believe she'd send this right before the holiday weekend; such a bitchy move" [bitchy / hammering / nagging--all ways of negating the actual content of what I'm saying]. But by saying nothing, I feel that is something I'm just not capable of because no matter what it will leave me hoping he's good for his word and will reach out to me in ten days. It's just how I'm wired, it seems. Actually, I get the impression you want to restart the control cycle by using break up to jump to steps five and six, hoping he'll come around if you warn him you're at the end. No, not the case. It is true, and I admitted to it above, that a part of me would be gratified if by sending a break-up email it brings him to my door protesting that he doesn't want the relationship to end. But that's just my ego speaking. I really do believe that this time apart, under the auspices of a "break," really is not going to bring about a change in the underlying dynamic as I'd hoped. The way he responded to my request to meet is a big part of the proof and for me the straw that broke the camel's back. I just cannot be kept waiting any longer, and I want to be free to use these summer months to make some important adjustments in my life, to grow, and to be happy--and I cannot do any of that while stuck in a dynamic of "waiting." I had thought that we could take time apart but still be able to come together periodically to discuss things, share new insights, etc. But I can't do that without him, and I can't do it with him while I'm feeling left in limbo for whenever HE decides he's ready to talk. It's been a month of no contact. Time to sh*t or get off the pot already, and to touch base only to find he's still "constipated" for one reason or other is just . It's not healthy for me. Link to post Share on other sites
tbf Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. I think that's why I feel placed in a difficult position. By ending things, I want to end the cycle, not add more fodder to the cycle. And it does seem that by emailing, no matter what I say, it will continue the cycle for him. Eg, "I can't believe she'd send this right before the holiday weekend; such a bitchy move" [bitchy / hammering / nagging--all ways of negating the actual content of what I'm saying].Forgot one thing. Notice how I included knowledge of his testing? This lets him know you're not going to play his game. Yes, any response will be viewed as a continuation of the game. I find him an interesting subject since he's majorly passive-aggressive and quite intelligent, in a highly manipulative way. It's a wit to wit outflanking game with him which might be what drew you in the first place. Unfortunately, he's come out the victor since he knows exactly what buttons to push, to get the rise he wants, whether consciously or subconsciously. But by saying nothing, I feel that is something I'm just not capable of because no matter what it will leave me hoping he's good for his word and will reach out to me in ten days. It's just how I'm wired, it seems. If you wish a by for being trapped in your wiring, he too deserves the same by for being wired the way he is. Do you emotionally understand this? No, not the case. It is true, and I admitted to it above, that a part of me would be gratified if by sending a break-up email it brings him to my door protesting that he doesn't want the relationship to end. But that's just my ego speaking. I really do believe that this time apart, under the auspices of a "break," really is not going to bring about a change in the underlying dynamic as I'd hoped. The way he responded to my request to meet is a big part of the proof and for me the straw that broke the camel's back. I just cannot be kept waiting any longer, and I want to be free to use these summer months to make some important adjustments in my life, to grow, and to be happy--and I cannot do any of that while stuck in a dynamic of "waiting." I had thought that we could take time apart but still be able to come together periodically to discuss things, share new insights, etc. But I can't do that without him, and I can't do it with him while I'm feeling left in limbo for whenever HE decides he's ready to talk. It's been a month of no contact. Time to sh*t or get off the pot already, and to touch base only to find he's still "constipated" for one reason or other is just . It's not healthy for me.Step back from your emotions for a second. What I perceive is that you want it your way and he wants it his way, where neither is willing to budge. This does sound like an extreme incompatibility but doesn't preclude your ability to amend your own behaviour (since you can only control yourself and not him, at least in a directive manner). Instead of waiting for him, you can continue with your life. You also have the ability not to jump when he comes out of hiding and tells you to jump. Take your time in responding to him, at your pace, not his. So that you know, I hear you and understand the need for clarity and conclusiveness. That's how I'm wired too. But you're heavily invested in this man. If you take the final step of shutting down on him, you'd better be prepared to make it stick. Can you hold to this resolution? If you can't, the control cycle restarts. Have you ever listened to the lyrics for this ? If not, listen. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 If you wish a by for being trapped in your wiring, he too deserves the same by for being wired the way he is. Do you emotionally understand this? This. I don't understand your meaning, but I think in part it's because a word is missing--"if you wish a by"="if you wish a bypass"? Do you mean that if I can say of myself that I'm "wired" for communication and not being in limbo, then I must also view him as "wired" for limbo, for an appetite to keep things always dancing on the edge? I want to understand what you're saying. In the meantime, I'm going to listen to the song you posted.... Link to post Share on other sites
tbf Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 This. I don't understand your meaning, but I think in part it's because a word is missing--"if you wish a by"="if you wish a bypass"? Do you mean that if I can say of myself that I'm "wired" for communication and not being in limbo, then I must also view him as "wired" for limbo, for an appetite to keep things always dancing on the edge?Yes. Bypass. (10 character limit) Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 Forgot one thing. Notice how I included knowledge of his testing? This lets him know you're not going to play his game. Honestly, I'm not sure that would even make a difference. If pointing how he tries to get under my skin ever chastened him, he's never made that apparent. I really think he enjoys this. Which I don't get, but at this point I'm past wanting to understand and just want to get out of the black hole of this "game." Yes, any response will be viewed as a continuation of the game. I find him an interesting subject since he's majorly passive-aggressive and quite intelligent, in a highly manipulative way. It's a wit to wit outflanking game with him which might be what drew you in the first place. Unfortunately, he's come out the victor since he knows exactly what buttons to push, to get the rise he wants, whether consciously or subconsciously. Yes, tbf. Dead-on. For the life of me I cannot understand what he could be getting out of putting me off--twice--when I requested that we meet, unless it was just to enjoy the upper hand gained by knowing I'd be hurt. He is very, very manipulative, and so insidious about it that I'm not sure even he is aware of it. If you wish a by for being trapped in your wiring, he too deserves the same by for being wired the way he is. Do you emotionally understand this? To come back to this, now that I understand what you meant. To me, being wired for communication and clarity is a GOOD thing, no? Whereas if he is wired always to "keep the marionettes dancing," so to speak, isn't that a wall to any kind of healthy intimacy whatsoever? I don't know what I'm getting at with that question, honestly. It's just that the suggestion has a lot of implications and I guess I'm trying to mine it. To gain insight on myself, most of all. Step back from your emotions for a second. What I perceive is that you want it your way and he wants it his way, where neither is willing to budge. This does sound like an extreme incompatibility but doesn't preclude your ability to amend your own behaviour (since you can only control yourself and not him, at least in a directive manner). Instead of waiting for him, you can continue with your life. You also have the ability not to jump when he comes out of hiding and tells you to jump. Take your time in responding to him, at your pace, not his. That's it, though. I just really want out of this cycle. I see that by just not responding it doesn't give him grist for plunging us into another round, and I see that any email I send just continues the cycle for him, regardless of what I say. But how can you walk away from a cycle, especially one as entrenched as this one (if you look back over my 2-year-old threads on this relationship, I'm saying the SAME things...and so are you and SSG, which is embarrassing to me but at the same time I think and hope I'm in a different relationship now to those same things), without drawing that hard line and not caring how it is perceived? I want to know that from this day on, my life will go forward without this cycle, and I can't see any way of being with K without that cycle perpetuating ad nauseum. There is something about him that keeps me constantly on my toes, and not in a good way. I've been in this long because I was willing, evidently, to do the dance, even while I experienced it as a refusal to dance...which I think is part of the game for him, whether consciously or unconsciously, I don't know. And I got something out of it, too: by being kept always on my toes, I experienced a lot of emotion with always having my needs just out of reach, and this perpetuates a lot of the dynamics of how I grew up. I don't see a way out of this, with him. On my own I feel like I can continue to go forward with listening to my instincts when they fill me with that icky feeling of something being off, with asserting my needs and not being afraid to walk away when something isn't working for me. I see myself reclaiming my empowerment (over myself, my life) by telling him it's over and sticking with it. I really have no idea how he'll handle it. I've hypothesized that the outcome he's always wanted with me is for me to reject him once and for all, since perhaps that confirms his feelings about himself. So a part of me hopes that he will just deflate like a balloon in the sky of my life and cease to be able to have his little game. The alternative is that we have to talk face to face and he pushes all my buttons...but I guess I need to be prepared for that. But you're heavily invested in this man. If you take the final step of shutting down on him, you'd better be prepared to make it stick. Can you hold to this resolution? If you can't, the control cycle restarts. I think I can. It will be hard, but not as hard as trying to make this relationship work. It's NOT GOING FORWARD AT ALL. I have run out of ideas. I thought the break would bring something new to the mix, but it hasn't, and I don't believe it will if prolonged another few months. Have you ever listened to the lyrics for this ? If not, listen. Good song. I've listened to it three times already. It describes everything I'm feeling. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
tbf Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 You're awesome GC, in your ability to be introspective and to not immediately jump to the land of butt-hurtia when someone says something that's not to your liking. This guy's a complete idiot for risking a relationship with someone of your introspective, intellectual and emotional capabilities. So it's time to step off the carousel. I still wouldn't respond to him. Pull a fade and if he never responds or contacts, he's accepted your terms. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 You're awesome GC, in your ability to be introspective and to not immediately jump to the land of butt-hurtia when someone says something that's not to your liking. I like people who can be up-front with me, who have the courage to stand up to me and tell me what's what even if it upsets me. I guess it's part of that "clarity" thing. This guy's a complete idiot for risking a relationship with someone of your introspective, intellectual and emotional capabilities. Is he, though? And am I, though? Because my love life so far has felt pretty Jerry Springer for someone supposedly so "smart." And women far less "smart" than me would be smart enough to walk when a relationship has made them feel as uncomfortable as this one has felt for me. For someone with such "introspective" and "emotional" capabilities, I sure do seem to rock the drama. There's something I'm missing, and I can feel it hovering on the edge of my language, but I can't quite articulate it, grasp it, yet. So it's time to step off the carousel. I still wouldn't respond to him. Pull a fade and if he never responds or contacts, he's accepted your terms. Now this idea I have a hard time with. How would this be better than sending the email, with some of the suggested edits, and sticking to my resolve no matter what his response, or what his mother says to me, or how much the good aspects of our relationship refuse to die in my memory? Remember that we are neighbors in a small town and seeing him is inevitable. And my biggest button would be seeing him all affable with me, not a care in the world, not an iota of apparent awareness of the craziness of the whole thing. I feel that line needs to be drawn or I'm not sure I'll be able to find my peace of mind. Link to post Share on other sites
tbf Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 I like people who can be up-front with me, who have the courage to stand up to me and tell me what's what even if it upsets me. I guess it's part of that "clarity" thing.It's a good quality to have. Is he, though? And am I, though? Because my love life so far has felt pretty Jerry Springer for someone supposedly so "smart." And women far less "smart" than me would be smart enough to walk when a relationship has made them feel as uncomfortable as this one has felt for me. For someone with such "introspective" and "emotional" capabilities, I sure do seem to rock the drama. There's something I'm missing, and I can feel it hovering on the edge of my language, but I can't quite articulate it, grasp it, yet. That's because there's a part of you that enjoys the intellectual challenge of head games. this perpetuates a lot of the dynamics of how I grew up. You've also already addressed the why on an emotional level. This also makes me wonder about what he grew up with. I found it interesting that his mother chose to tell you that he's testing you. What are his parents like? Now this idea I have a hard time with. How would this be better than sending the email, with some of the suggested edits, and sticking to my resolve no matter what his response, or what his mother says to me, or how much the good aspects of our relationship refuse to die in my memory? Remember that we are neighbors in a small town and seeing him is inevitable. And my biggest button would be seeing him all affable with me, not a care in the world, not an iota of apparent awareness of the craziness of the whole thing. I feel that line needs to be drawn or I'm not sure I'll be able to find my peace of mind.All of this can be consolidated into a few words. You want to upset him, for him to feel loss, just like you're feeling. Your relationship dynamics can be broken down into two parts where both of you want control. He neglects and negates you (passive). You yank his fear of loss chain (directly). In not responding, you're still yanking his fear of loss chain but doing it passively. If I've got a bead on him, his mind will be racing, trying to figure out all the possibilities of why you're not reacting as expected and how to get you to respond again. Even if you break up with him directly, he still won't show that you've upset him. So why bother with the unnecessary drama? Just let him sweat it out and proceed to move on, firmly stepping off the carousel and walking away. Also, whether you directly break up with him or fade, he will most likely try to get your attention in the future. Not to get back together but to yank your chain. If so, don't let him see you sweat. Keep walking away. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 23, 2013 Author Share Posted May 23, 2013 Wow. A lot to think about, TBF. What you say resonates very deeply with me. And what you suggest at the end of your post, while the reasoning makes excellent sense, I just don't think I'm capable of a fade. It feels counter to everything I'm about. I don't want to send the break up email to hurt him; I'm not even sure he'll be hurt, or even surprised. I want to send that email to draw that firm line, so that when people around us ask what's up with K and me, I can say, "We have broken up; we're done," and know that if word gets back to him, he won't be surprised with second-hand information. I just don't know that I'm capable of that. Even while I also see the appeal and logic of doing something counter to my usual MO, which is what you're suggesting, and you're backing it with perfect logic. Have to think about this. Have not been outside all day and it's gorgeous. I'm going to go for a short hike and mull everything over. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 24, 2013 Author Share Posted May 24, 2013 That's because there's a part of you that enjoys the intellectual challenge of head games. Why on earth, I asked myself yesterday, would anyone derive enjoyment of the intellectual challenge of head games? Because, I answered, head games leave you emotionally deprived but mentally stimulated. If you 're going to be emotionally deprived, some part of the person thinks, then being constantly kept on your toes will, if not make up for the emotional deprivation, at least keep you stimulated so that you don't feel the deprivation as much. And the only reason I could come up with for why this rationale would appeal to anyone was: Because the person has never experienced true emotional *fulfillment* in an intimate relationship with someone. There is a void there, which the person fills with inadequate substitutes, e.g., enjoyment of the intellectual challenge of head games. That's so sad it makes me feel kind-of ill to think of about it. But I recognize it in myself. I encounter someone who is vaguely derisive, or withholding. This stimulates me to try to "figure out" the source of that. I uphold myself around such a person cerebrally, rather than focus on how the person makes me FEEL. There is nothing intellectual about that focus; it's very simple: Hmmm, when I'm around this person I feel vaguely bad / low / confused / hurt much of the time. The only thing that leaves you to "figure out" is how quickly you can mobilize yourself to the nearest exit from this person's emotional sphere. If I know this, why have I so far been unable to do it? Baffling, and upsetting. This also makes me wonder about what he grew up with. I found it interesting that his mother chose to tell you that he's testing you. What are his parents like? I absolutely adore his family. Too bad I can't marry them. His mother is a wonderful person, very caring, sharp, warm, intuitive, and strong. I think she feels a lot of guilt about how K grew up: she was very young when she had him, and his father abandoned him, and things were very tumultuous for her in his childhood such that for several years he lived with his grandparents, who also are loving, wonderful people. My mom loves them; I love them. Anyway, as the oldest sibling, K bore the brunt of his mom's difficult early years, and I think she feels guilty because she was able to do so much better with her younger children, being older, more financially secure and secure in her marriage. I also think she sees how K might be a very, very challenging man to date. She plays blind, but I don't think she really is blind, and I don't think she agrees with how he behaves at all. She often has sought me out to talk about my relationship with K--this is something I'd NEVER tolerate from someone else, but she's not your average boyfriend's mom. She has acknowledged that she understands my difficulties with the relationship. I suspect at times she has some of the same difficulties with her son. Not where she's pulled into the same dynamic as I have with him, but where she sees it. __________________________ I'm still undecided about when and how I'm going to let this relationship go. For now I only observe that when I awoke this morning, I felt sad and bad inside, which I had NOT felt before this disappointing email display from him. I can't see how I'll be capable of just continuing on, dealing with it when it comes whether he asks to talk next week as he said he "might" do, or whether he doesn't, or whether he waits months. I think it will only make me depressed. That's why I keep leaning toward sending [a slightly revised] version of a break-up email. Link to post Share on other sites
tbf Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Why on earth, I asked myself yesterday, would anyone derive enjoyment of the intellectual challenge of head games? Because, I answered, head games leave you emotionally deprived but mentally stimulated. If you 're going to be emotionally deprived, some part of the person thinks, then being constantly kept on your toes will, if not make up for the emotional deprivation, at least keep you stimulated so that you don't feel the deprivation as much. And the only reason I could come up with for why this rationale would appeal to anyone was: Because the person has never experienced true emotional *fulfillment* in an intimate relationship with someone. There is a void there, which the person fills with inadequate substitutes, e.g., enjoyment of the intellectual challenge of head games. That's so sad it makes me feel kind-of ill to think of about it. But I recognize it in myself. I encounter someone who is vaguely derisive, or withholding. This stimulates me to try to "figure out" the source of that. I uphold myself around such a person cerebrally, rather than focus on how the person makes me FEEL. There is nothing intellectual about that focus; it's very simple: Hmmm, when I'm around this person I feel vaguely bad / low / confused / hurt much of the time. The only thing that leaves you to "figure out" is how quickly you can mobilize yourself to the nearest exit from this person's emotional sphere.Perhaps the line gets fuzzy between intellectual and emotional challenge, when formative years familial dynamics shaped your concept of love. If I know this, why have I so far been unable to do it? Baffling, and upsetting.Refer to your next quote. I absolutely adore his family. Too bad I can't marry them. Giving him up would mean giving up "your" adoptive family and safety. His mother is a wonderful person, very caring, sharp, warm, intuitive, and strong. I think she feels a lot of guilt about how K grew up: she was very young when she had him, and his father abandoned him, and things were very tumultuous for her in his childhood such that for several years he lived with his grandparents, who also are loving, wonderful people. My mom loves them; I love them. Anyway, as the oldest sibling, K bore the brunt of his mom's difficult early years, and I think she feels guilty because she was able to do so much better with her younger children, being older, more financially secure and secure in her marriage. So he was doubly abandoned with no way to control it. With the lack of control and unreliable role models, do you wonder why he MUST control his environment and remain emotionally detached? Consider how preemptive rejection works. I also think she sees how K might be a very, very challenging man to date. She plays blind, but I don't think she really is blind, and I don't think she agrees with how he behaves at all. She often has sought me out to talk about my relationship with K--this is something I'd NEVER tolerate from someone else, but she's not your average boyfriend's mom. She has acknowledged that she understands my difficulties with the relationship. I suspect at times she has some of the same difficulties with her son. Not where she's pulled into the same dynamic as I have with him, but where she sees it.She's got a lot of guilt. Feeling like a failed parent. I'd be careful of pushing her in any way, since she will side with her son from love and guilt. I'm still undecided about when and how I'm going to let this relationship go. For now I only observe that when I awoke this morning, I felt sad and bad inside, which I had NOT felt before this disappointing email display from him. I can't see how I'll be capable of just continuing on, dealing with it when it comes whether he asks to talk next week as he said he "might" do, or whether he doesn't, or whether he waits months. I think it will only make me depressed. That's why I keep leaning toward sending [a slightly revised] version of a break-up email.You have to live with your decision, so do what you feel is right. Just bear in mind your negative relationship cycle. A quote: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ~Albert Einstein Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 (edited) After my emotions spiked on Thursday, I decided to wait a day or two before deciding how to end the relationship--send an email along the lines of the draft I posted here, or just wait. And the decision just came to me. It's weird. I feel completely okay with just letting it lie. It's not about the ball being in his court, or about me hoping the whole thing will just fade out, because I think that latter outcome would be kind-of sh*tty. It's just that I'm too busy moving forward with my life. I have a job interview this week, an unpleasant medical procedure next Monday that I'm dreading, I'm nearly finished with another chapter of the book I'm working on. I'm not on pins and needles hoping to hear from him. I'm not expecting anything--which is not to say I'm expecting nothing. I feel strangely at peace, and it's so uncharacteristic of me that I'm wondering whether I'm missing something, something that is going to come crashing down on me as an emotional, agonizing realization. I think one reason why I feel at peace is that I actually had a fun Saturday with his mom, not talking about K's and my relationship at all, just over at the home of one of her fun friends where they were holding a garage sale. I think what would make me hurt the worst would be having to face completely losing my relationship with his mom when our relationship is officially done. Of course I know the relationship would fade, but my hope would be that though it might change in some ways, we still could be fond of each other, even if from afar (like if I move from here). That's an important, good relationship for me that I am proud of having established during my time where I currently live and I'd be heartbroken to lose it. Losing K. once and for all? Yes, I'll be sad, but not heartbroken. Too much wasn't working in this relationship. That said, when all the crazy wasn't swirling around, I know we have enjoyed each others' companionship. I already miss that...but I don't miss how much difficulty I felt I had to sift through to get to that. I feel like a bystander in this, curious to find out how it all goes down. So long as I can keep moving forward and getting ever-truer to myself, I'll be okay. Edited May 27, 2013 by GreenCove 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 At a quarter to eleven tonight, I received this email from K.: Hello GreenCove, Will you be available Wednesday evening? I would like to invite you to go for a walk followed by dinner. I hope you had a nice, rest-filled weekend. KI'll admit it: my heart beat faster when I saw he had emailed. Regardless of anything he says or does, I know where I stand on things. BUT: I do want to hear what he has to say, if it's along the lines of wanting to continue our relationship and work on improving it. I want to hear it, if only because it would be in such stark contrast to the attitude many of his behaviors have conveyed to date. But: if he wants to meet up to break up, I really am not up for being rejected, to be honest. Every relationship I've been in has resulted in ME being rejected, and I do not want to have to have this happen yet again. I especially don't want to be broken up with over dinner. I fear his reasons for wanting to do a walk and dinner--in the middle of the week, no less, and not the weekend, which is when I'd think relationship status conversations are best held--is to break up with me during the walk, and then make like the "nice guy" by taking me to dinner so that we can end on good terms. I really want to protect myself, and so this is what I wrote in reply: Hey~ I appreciate your wanting to meet up, but I can't agree to a walk and dinner if I don't know your intent? ThanksI've not heard anything yet, which could be because it's late our time. But I have this nagging fear that if it were for a perfectly benign reason that he wants to take a walk and have dinner with me, it would be easy to write back with, "I want to talk with you about moving forward with our relationship." I'm freaking out a little. I so do not want to have to be rejected again; I just can't psychologically deal right now. I don't think I'll be able to meet with him Wednesday evening, anyway, but I won't meet with him at his request unless I know his intent. Ugh.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 K. answered my email asking him what his intent was in wanting to meet with me. He said: That's a fair response. My intent is to talk to you about us and to try to spend some quality time together, just like you had proposed in your initial email about going for a hike. I'm sorry if my initial response seemed insensitive--not my intent by any means--but I've been trying to work through some feelings--i.e. fears, frustrations, hopes, etc. with respect to us. I just needed a little more space on the time continuum and I greatly appreciate that you've given me that in the last week and half. I want to move forward with our relationship. I understand that their is a lot of mistrust and I'm ashamed of my part that has directly played into this equation. I hope we can come to a better understanding of how to communicate and, through concessions of our past dynamics, regain trust and respect. I want to talk to you in person about this. Let me know if you're available this week. And, perhaps when? I have Yoga Thursday night but it gets out at 6:30 after our final OMMMMM. Also, I just found out that I don't have to work today. Basically, any time this week and I'll make it happen.We did our walk on Friday, and dinner. And while I appreciate some of the things he said, nothing transpired that makes me feel any differently. I felt distressed after we met on Friday, instead of happy, relieved, or hopeful, and so I asked if he'd be willing to meet on Saturday as I said I had some things I wanted to clarify. I asked him how he saw this going forward, especially as we both said we wanted some more time apart to sort through feelings, etc. He has only very vague plans for himself, and while he says he wants a future with me, he has no ideas or plans for when or what it would look like or where, and I didn't push the issue. I just stopped because I realized there is no sense in pushing. It's like asking and asking for something that the other person simply doesn't see the need to address, or what's more likely, just cannot address. So even after the conversation on Saturday, I feel frustrated, confused, sad. I feel like I MUST, MUST end this but for some reason I just can't pull the plug. Maybe in part because I don't fully understand why it just hasn't worked, for three whole years. I don't fully understand my role in this, and it all keeps me hanging on, hoping for answers. But holding on when my gut keeps screaming that it is hopeless, as it has screamed for three years, creates much unpleasant feeling, to say the least. I feel...outside of myself, like I'm someone else; I feel confused by myself, and my seeming inability to act despite knowing what needs to be done. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) Basically, what struck me most after our two conversations was that from his behavior and his words, I could be waiting YEARS before a) he even starts talking about marrying me, as in, talking about it like it's an actual plan or clear idea in his mind, and then b) he actually proposes to me. I just have this feeling that even though he SAYS it's what he wants, eventually, it just doesn't seem to be on his mind. Sort-of the way it might be on, say, a teenaged boy's mind, but it's all theoretical or so far in the future that the teenaged boy is not actively ordering his life around that idea. It feels like that with K. And then it feels like perhaps he just doesn't want it with ME. The girlfriend he had before me, whom he dated for two years, he told me he never loved, and never once told her, "I love you." She got a job in Minnesota and they agreed he would move there to be with her, a few months after she moved and got settled, etc. The agreed-upon month for his move came and went, and he dragged it out, and dragged it out, ultimately never moving. She finally cheated on him, and while I don't condone cheating under any circumstances, I wouldn't be surprised if perhaps she did it to force an ending to a relationship that confused and frustrated her, as well. (She ultimately married the guy with whom she cheated on K., and they have a baby now--again, not that that makes her actions right.) I fear K. is doing the same thing to me, though he has always said he loves me, and I believe him. But I fear he's just dragging it out...and somehow after this weekend I'm starting to suspect that perhaps he's not even aware of how he's putting me off. Just a suspicion. I'm too confused to know one way or another. Sorry for these long, ramble-y posts. It helps to get my thoughts and feelings out there. Edited June 3, 2013 by GreenCove Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I feel like I MUST, MUST end this but for some reason I just can't pull the plug. Maybe in part because I don't fully understand why it just hasn't worked, for three whole years. I don't fully understand my role in this, and it all keeps me hanging on, hoping for answers. But holding on when my gut keeps screaming that it is hopeless, as it has screamed for three years, creates much unpleasant feeling, to say the least. Best analogy I can think of is, as a long-term investor, buying a stock. It's rare that I hold anything for shorter than 3 years but it's also a deadline at which I start asking myself some hard questions. Will it grow? What will the return be? Will it meet me needs in the future? Unfortunately, sometimes the answers are no, not enough and no again. And that means time to sell and invest the resources in something else. Any other course is self-destructive and counter-productive. I hope you're a smart investor ... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted June 3, 2013 Author Share Posted June 3, 2013 Mr. Lucky, that's a good way to look at it! Well, I guess it's obvious I haven't been a very good investor to date as far as relationships go. However, I don't think I'm beyond hope. I see no sign of K. and I ever drawing closer together. I feel guilty because perhaps it's due largely to how I view him. I know he's a nice guy deep down, but his behavior in my eyes always is not quite up to par. I have spent three years trying to tell him how I feel, only to be told I'm a "nag" and "difficult." Perhaps I am. But I don't think so. For instance, when we met on Friday, after six weeks of complete time apart, he hadn't bothered to shower that day, and you could smell it. I know we were going for a hike, but even so, I showered, brushed my teeth and hair, wore clean clothes that matched and put on some lip gloss. This thing alone is not a big deal at all, but given all the other things, it's just one more way his behavior says, "I don't give a crap" even while he claims he cares. The past five years have just been so difficult (I moved to CO almost five years ago). I plan to leave the area where I live by the end of this summer to try out another part of CO, but I'm doubtful by this point that it's going to be much better. I love the outdoor life here, but socially it has been the biggest interpersonal let-down I've ever had. This relationship has been no exception. Sadly, it's also tied to the one happy social place I have established here: his family. One foot in front of the other, right? God, even I can't stand to read my threads lately; I sound so down and out and it's just not like me. Link to post Share on other sites
smoky eyes Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 You say you'd be waiting years for him to decide if he wants to marry you (and then propose) or not, but by the sounds of your tone that isn't really what you yourself want with him? It sounds like a good time to move on... you're moving anyway, and sadly we can't inherit our partner's families (well, not sadly in my case, but anyway). There are lots of places with the outdoor life that might be a better fit socially, don't you think? It sounds like the relationship is well over in your head anyway, and staying longer is just going to make the interpersonal failure seem worse... Link to post Share on other sites
Fugu Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Mr. Lucky, He's listless in all areas of his life lately. More than lately; it's been going on for as long as we've dated and seemingly a little longer, as well. He seems stuck in all domains of his life, and no amount of me trying to support him, talking with him, getting upset with him, etc. seems to help. What has concerned me particularly is that he has never sought help--and I don't just mean psychological help, but career help, help with a project he's been working on, help from his old friends. I've particularly been bothered by his never bringing up the future. What's more, I've known him for a long while now and I have no idea what he even WANTS--for himself, for his future, for us, anything. It has been frustrating for me and I finally reached a point where I didn't want to deal with it daily anymore. I felt like I was nagging him all the time and that's not who I want to be. I thought a break might give him some time to figure out what he wants relating to me, to his career and other domains of his life, while I could spend some time also clarifying what I ultimately want. There have been times in my adult life when I've acted like this. I think it's sometimes easier just to not make any decisions. Maybe he's gotten to the point where he's afraid to make the wrong decision, so he makes none. Whatever the explanation may be, it helps you none. I think you're trying to help him reach another stage in life, but he doesn't see that. It takes courage for a man to admit that he's got to move from one stage to the next. It takes courage for a man to admit that he needs help. Some men take longer to move to that next stage in life (whatever it is), and some men never do at all. I don't know what to tell you. Link to post Share on other sites
Fugu Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 You say you'd be waiting years for him to decide if he wants to marry you (and then propose) or not, but by the sounds of your tone that isn't really what you yourself want with him? Maybe it's exasperation. There's only so much a person can tolerate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Zapbasket Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 There have been times in my adult life when I've acted like this. I think it's sometimes easier just to not make any decisions. Maybe he's gotten to the point where he's afraid to make the wrong decision, so he makes none. Whatever the explanation may be, it helps you none. I think you're trying to help him reach another stage in life, but he doesn't see that. It takes courage for a man to admit that he's got to move from one stage to the next. It takes courage for a man to admit that he needs help. Some men take longer to move to that next stage in life (whatever it is), and some men never do at all. I don't know what to tell you. I've not been on here the past several days but plan to give an update this weekend. I was interested in your comment, Fugu, because what you describe here is exactly what seems to be going on with K. I've stopped taking his behaviors personally. I think in his mind he really does love me. But there is this baffling passivity that seems to follow him around like a cloud that even he doesn't know is there. In everything he does, not just things pertaining to me. A couple of months ago, before we took this break, he got really upset with me for saying that sometimes I felt he was "like a lily pad floating on a still lake of nowhere." I didn't mean for it to come off as strongly as it did, and I apologized...but that is exactly how I feel. It's why after all this time with him, I still see no sign of what he really wants; everything he does just lacks a certain drive or direction. And when he tries to describe what he sees his direction to be, it's even more confusing and confused than it all appears to be. Did you ever snap out of it, Fugu? If so, what snapped you out of it? Or are you more passive by nature? (The thing is, I've known some very passive people, and even they have a direction; it's just that everything decision they make is very calm, quiet and considered. The thing I see with K. seems to be something else. I've thought depression, but he doesn't seem unhappy. He doesn't seem happy, either, just kind of...vacant. Even one of our mutual friends described him just that way: vacant.) Link to post Share on other sites
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