Aonz Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 This is why I personally don't believe in God. LET HER DIE Oct 1 2004 Charlotte cannot smile. She lives in oxygen box. She is in constant, unbearable pain. She does not respond to cuddles or people. She has absolutely no hope of recovery Yesterday her doctors made the heart-breaking plea. By Adrian Shaw A JUDGE was yesterday asked to let a desperately sick baby girl die despite her anguished parents' wishes. Eleven-month-old Charlotte Wyatt cannot smile, see or hear, breathes in an oxygen "box" and has "no feeling other than continual pain". She will never recover and most probably die in a year. In an unprecedented legal action, doctors seek permission not to resuscitate her if her condition dramatically worsens to spare her further suffering. Source: The Mirror You can choose to believe if you wish but I cannot when things like this happen. Link to post Share on other sites
BlockHead Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Aonz Do you blame God for the choices that people make? Would it make you feel better if God deprived you and everybody those choices? If this is about the child’s suffering, you should understand one thing. You are not entitled to anything including your life. You are not entitled to a long life, a life free of pain, happiness, a family, or healthy children. You have a purpose, but it certainly isn’t to be served by God. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted October 1, 2004 Author Share Posted October 1, 2004 If God puts a person on this Earth He should at least give them a chance. What purpose does it serve to create a life that will only be full of pain and suffering? Where is His morality? Link to post Share on other sites
UCFKevin Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Some say it's all part of His plan. Maybe this is part of the plan. Maybe the results of this happening will lead to something important for the people involved. There's always light at the end of the tunnel, somehow, someway, no matter how far. Link to post Share on other sites
BlockHead Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Aonz If God puts a person on this Earth He should at least give them a chance.That is your opinion. Aonz What purpose does it serve to create a life that will only be full of pain and suffering?You can ask God when your life comes to an end. Aonz Where is His morality?Do you think you are qualified to pass judgment on God? Jesus suffered, and died in one of the cruelest and most humiliating ways. Do you think that makes God mean or creul? Obviously, there is a lot more going on, but for one reason or another, we don’t know. Maybe we aren’t allowed to know. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted October 2, 2004 Author Share Posted October 2, 2004 Originally posted by UCFKevin Some say it's all part of His plan. Maybe this is part of the plan. Maybe the results of this happening will lead to something important for the people involved. There's always light at the end of the tunnel, somehow, someway, no matter how far. If you ask me the price is too damn high. Originally posted by BlockHead Do you think you are qualified to pass judgment on God? No, but I will anyway. If I'm understanding you correctly your saying God put this child here to fulfill some purpose that only He knows. Then after a short and painful life the child will go to Heaven and will be some how rewarded? Originally posted by BlockHead Jesus suffered, and died in one of the cruelest and most humiliating ways. Do you think that makes God mean or creul? I don't see the difference aren't we all meant to be His children? Originally posted by BlockHead You can ask God when your life comes to an end. If He's waiting for me I will. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 I think it was Spinoza who made the observation that humans are not omniscient, and therefore can't judge anything as inherently evil / good. We don't understand the context of the universe, you have no idea what else is going on because you look at things from human eyes. Perhaps a young girl on LS read that story just now, and decided to live another day? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted October 2, 2004 Author Share Posted October 2, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker I think it was Spinoza who made the observation that humans are not omniscient, and therefore can't judge anything as inherently evil / good. We don't understand the context of the universe, you have no idea what else is going on because you look at things from human eyes. Perhaps a young girl on LS read that story just now, and decided to live another day? Perhaps but what is one life compared to another? I agree that we don't understand the context of the universe and probably never will. In our wonderful arrogance we created the idea of God - 'The Creator of Universe' to explain this. Just because we don't understand how we came to be and how nature could possibly have created this beautiful world without some kind of divine intervention. We came up with this idea of an omnipotent being that created this entire universe and then made us in His own image (as His representatives) to rule in His name. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 The God you don't believe in is a combination of puppetmaster and Santa Claus who only makes good things happen. You may have noticed that humans insist upon having free will, and, ostensibly, we have been given it by God. It's not His fault that we do with it what we wish. Humans have messed with Nature. Left to her own devices, this child would have died long ago and would have been out of pain but humans have intervened, thinking that forcing someone in pain to live is, somehow, humane. Yet you blame God. What do you want? Do you want freedom? If so, then you can't complain about what free humans do. Do you want God to be a divine puppetmaster? Why? We chose freedom over the safety of Eden long ago and, in so doing, accepted all the consequences which go along with it. And the fact is that many of them aren't at all pleasant. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted October 2, 2004 Author Share Posted October 2, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme Humans have messed with Nature. Left to her own devices, this child would have died long ago and would have been out of pain but humans have intervened, thinking that forcing someone in pain to live is, somehow, humane. Yet you blame God. I won't say they were forcing her to live; they were to trying to save her. At the time I doubt they knew their efforts would be ultimately futile. I question why this child was created at all, what purpose does it serve? We chose freedom over the safety of Eden long ago and, in so doing, accepted all the consequences which go along with it. And the fact is that many of them aren't at all pleasant. Did we? I know I wasn't given a vote. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Did we? I know I wasn't given a vote. Oh well. Why was she born? Why were you born? To teach a lesson maybe. Why do you think you could or should know anyway? Maybe somebody will read about her and figure out how to prevent people being born so badly disabled or how to help them when they are. Maybe a thousand things. That you don't know or understand doesn't make it unfair. It just makes it unknown. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted October 2, 2004 Author Share Posted October 2, 2004 OK maybe thats the way it is but I don't have to like it. I guess I just have to accept it. I for one don't like this world we have created for ourselves, I'll be glad when my time here is finally over. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 There is beauty in this world. There are wonderful people. There is breathtaking nature. Glorious things happen if only you look. Here's one that really touched me this week. We have an area where we store files in boxes. It's in a parking garage. We need to get it cleared out and I'm helping with that. I opened a box and saw a spider zoom across the lid. I closed it quickly; there are a couple of venomous spiders in this part of the world and, while I'm not afraid of bugs as a rule, the potential of encountering a venomous one is a little daunting. When I closed the lid, the air current it created must've blown the spider out into the garage. My colleague and I went around to the front of the storage area and saw a spider lying on the floor with legs all askew. I was planning to collect the spider and take it upstairs to our biologists to see if it was a bad one so I didn't want to squish it. I took a stick and banged it really hard right by the spider. Thing didn't budge. Not even twitch a leg. So we figured it was dead. We went upstairs for break. Came back - spider is gone! Smart little dickens! In that tiny spider head was enough of a brain/instinct to sit perfectly still while a hefty stick was smacked around right beside it! I found out that the markings I saw are not those of either of our venomous spiders, and was awed by the behaviour of that little bug. Yes, there are rotten things in the world but there is a lot to enjoy and a lot to love. You have to change your focus from the bad and wretched to the good and beautiful, and then enjoy every single moment you have. Link to post Share on other sites
re3rocks Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 u are in ur brain, not some other spirit in ur body, ur a part of the brain. when u die, ur brain dies, and since ur part of ur brain, u die. its then we choose religion to explain, if that part of the dying brain just goes away, or god digs up graves and takes em to heaven and remakes us, or sumthin. im such a genious Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Originally posted by Aonz Did we? I know I wasn't given a vote. [Eden's] overrated anyway. I believe it's somewhere in Iraq at press time. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted October 2, 2004 Author Share Posted October 2, 2004 Originally posted by re3rocks u are in ur brain, not some other spirit in ur body, ur a part of the brain. when u die, ur brain dies, and since ur part of ur brain, u die. its then we choose religion to explain, if that part of the dying brain just goes away, or god digs up graves and takes em to heaven and remakes us, or sumthin. im such a genious The human mind is 'metaphysical', where the brain on the other hand exists in the 'physical world' they are not the same thing: when you look at me all you see is a face and a body you don't actually see me, the body is only a shell. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted October 7, 2004 Author Share Posted October 7, 2004 Just an update. Eleven month old baby Charlotte Wyatt is to be allowed to die if she stops breathing. The High Court has given doctors permission not to resuscitate her. The judge said she should be given three things: "As much comfort as possible, as much time as possible to spend in the presence and in contact with her parents and she should be allowed to meet her end with the TLC of those who love her the most." Her parents do not intend to appeal. I just hope Charlotte can find the peace in death she never found in life. Link to post Share on other sites
Naive Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Originally posted by Aonz I agree that we don't understand the context of the universe and probably never will. In our wonderful arrogance we created the idea of God - 'The Creator of Universe' to explain this. Just because we don't understand how we came to be and how nature could possibly have created this beautiful world without some kind of divine intervention. We came up with this idea of an omnipotent being that created this entire universe and then made us in His own image (as His representatives) to rule in His name. Sometimes I think like this for a quick minute and then feel guilty. Sometimes I think that someone just made Him up just like fairies and santa claus and so on or that they just made Him up to have an explanation as to why we are here. I come from a super religious family and this type of thoughts are simply unacceptable and when I have my doubts or inquiries about this subject I cannot ask the pastor because he will think I am possesed or something and I think it's only human to think this way or have questions. So I just go along with whatever they say Don't get me wrong I have respect for God, but I cannot help but think like this at times. Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 I question why this child was created at all, what purpose does it serve? reminds me of an email story in circulation several years ago, about a young mentally retarded boy named Shaya. His family loved the boy dearly, but were sorrowed that he would never be more than 4 years old in his head. one day, his dad saw a group of boys Shaya's age playing baseball, and he began questioning God in anger: why wasn't his son allowed to enjoy life like those boys were? Shaya would never get to do a lot of those things those boys would. Why Shaya? How could a loving God do something like that to a child, where was He? then the dad goes on to say that the boys noticed Shaya watching them, and agreed to let the boy play on the team at bat because they were so dismally behind in score. and the dad realized that God was there all along: the ball players, understanding Shaya's limitations, began craft the game around him, encouraging to keep swinging away even though he kept missing the ball. At one point, when the bat connected, all the boys -- even on the other team -- began yelling for Shaya to run, to steal bases and go for home. The opposing team overthrew the ball so that they could give Shaya time to steal home. And he did. the dad realized that God created Shaya – as physically and mentally flawed as he was – for a particular reason: his little boy helped bring out the good in others. I can't tell you why baby Charlotte was created the way she was ... just that she gave a lot of different people a chance to grow through love and caring and selflessness. Yes, they will have grieved at the circumstances, but I think they will also look back at them as their opportunity to be a little bit closer to the God who created them. often, when man is confronted with a situation that throws him for a loop, he turns to God and puts his faith in him. Ideally, it wouldn't take a seriously ill child to do that, but sometimes that provides the motivation to for that connection to be made. Bad things happen, and a lot of times, nothing we do can prevent those things from happening. But, we CAN chose how we respond, how we decide to seek God in those events .... Link to post Share on other sites
sjs61 Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 Why don't you believe in God? Suffer is to gain... Gain is to suffer Ask yourself, do you ever happen to say "Oh, jesus" if yes, than you believe cause Jesus can also be God as well as the heavens above. God loves nonbelievers as well as believers so there's no escaping God. God makes those lucky to win the Lottery and than those to suffer a pain or grief. Somewhere underlines why that little child or any persons have to suffer cause they wouldn't have seen peace if they lived longer cause one of their loved ones commit a sin or may have caused harm to her as she gets older... There's always 2 sides of the coin or don't judge the book by it cover... If you DO NOT believe than try GOD out with some requests like ask him for something that you need for a week and lets see if it comes true. Don't ask for something that you already know you'll get like example a pay raise or new shoes, etc. Ask him to bring someone into your path that may convince you that God is REAL... Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 God is real. Everyone with a decent education knows he's a reality. What some cannot comprehend is that he exists--that there's actually a divine controller up in the sky, or wherever. As a believer, I contend that his existence is totally unimportant. Whether or not we actually get some goody when we die is a formality, not a truth. What's important is that we use the inalienable holiness that God gave us to be good people--and that won't always manifest itself through a belief in God. For some, atheism provides the answers to enough questions to where it allows them to contribute more. Although this would disturb the person busting his ass off on Sunday to sing lame songs, I truly believe that for some Don't concern yourself over whether God's real or not--Pascal was wasting his time. MAKE God real. Be good, be holy. Link to post Share on other sites
bluetuesday Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 suddenly it's very clear to me why i found loveshack. it wasn't for the relationship advice (although that's been welcome). it was so i could read and understand the above post. thank you god. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 What's important is that we use the inalienable holiness that God gave us to be good people--and that won't always manifest itself through a belief in God. For some, atheism provides the answers to enough questions to where it allows them to contribute more. Although this would disturb the person busting his ass off on Sunday to sing lame songs, I truly believe that for some Don't concern yourself over whether God's real or not--Pascal was wasting his time. MAKE God real. Be good, be holy. Beautiful, dear Dyer! suddenly it's very clear to me why i found loveshack. it wasn't for the relationship advice (although that's been welcome). it was so i could read and understand the above post. thank you god. You got it, my friend. This is the kind of Loveshack experience that has held me here. It's just we used to have more of them. Thanks, Dyer, for putting some Love back into the Shack. Link to post Share on other sites
faux Posted November 6, 2004 Share Posted November 6, 2004 I do not believe in a god for many similar reasons, and far more deeper reasons that I will not go into quite yet. I think that a belief in god can convince people of some pretty silly things, especially when the subject of embryos is brought up. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Aonz Posted November 7, 2004 Author Share Posted November 7, 2004 Originally posted by sjs61 God makes those lucky to win the Lottery and than those to suffer a pain or grief. Somewhere underlines why that little child or any persons have to suffer cause they wouldn't have seen peace if they lived longer cause one of their loved ones commit a sin or may have caused harm to her as she gets older... So your saying God is punishing her or her family? I'm not a theologian or anything but from what I know I don't think your God would do that. Question - Does the Christian God actually create a person’s physical being or just the soul? Link to post Share on other sites
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