How to Build a Modern Church 101

[M30USA]

Make the pastor Dave Ramsay. He is primarily a financial guru, who also adds a pinch of Bible verses here and there. (Make sure to keep the REAL stress on financial success and security, rather than the cost of discipleship and entering in at the narrow gate, as Christ spoke of.)

 

Support the pastor with a team of successful business leaders, who also add a pinch of Bible verses here and there. (The real goal is to build bigger buildings, increase the profits of church, and have a business plan. You don't want those...you know...impractical, boring people who pray, wait on the Lord, and possess the gift of spiritual discernment. No. We need to get things done. Grab the bull by the horns.)

 

Lastly, attract a congregation who is primarily concerned with the things of this life, here and now. (Who wants to be one of those "head in the clouds" Christians who is good for nothing? Jesus even said, "My kingdom is not of this world--" Wait. Um. No, scratch that. Paul said, "Conform not to the ways of this world but--" Oops. Nevermind.

 

You know what? Who needs church anyway. Let's just attend a financial security workshop. Yea, that's better. Basically it gets the same thing done, anyway.

Edited May 25, 2013 by M30USA

[soccerrprp]

Make the pastor Dave Ramsay. He is primarily a financial guru, who also adds a pinch of Bible verses here and there. (Make sure to keep the REAL stress on financial success and security, rather than the cost of discipleship and entering in at the narrow gate, as Christ spoke of.)

 

Support the pastor with a team of successful business leaders, who also add a pinch of Bible verses here and there. (The real goal is to build bigger buildings, increase the profits of church, and have a business plan. You don't want those...you know...impractical, boring people who pray, wait on the Lord, and possess the gift of spiritual discernment. No. We need to get things done. Grab the bull by the horns.)

 

Lastly, attract a congregation who is primarily concerned with the things of this life, here and now. (Who wants to be one of those "head in the clouds" Christians who is good for nothing? Jesus even said, "My kingdom is not of this world--" Wait. Um. No, scratch that. Paul said, "Conform not to the ways of this world but--" Oops. Nevermind.

 

You know what? Who needs church anyway. Let's just attend a financial security workshop. Yea, that's better. Basically it gets the same thing done, anyway.

 

I'm a little dense... is this sarcasm or your accurate evaluation of the modern church? Or both....

[M30USA]

I'm a little dense... is this sarcasm or your accurate evaluation of the modern church? Or both....

 

Bit of both.

 

[M30USA]

It's for these reasons that I chose not to be a pastor. (I'm not implying I would have been a good pastor or that I even possess these skills.) But I have consciously decided that I can do more for Gods Kingdom by everyday interaction with people that I cross paths with during "normal" situations. I view myself as a salesman for God. I don't sell life insurance, cars, or gadgets. I sell the Gospel. And I sell it where it's REAL, not where everybody dresses up nice on a Sunday and acts differently.

[soccerrprp]

It's for these reasons that I chose not to be a pastor. (I'm not implying I would have been a good pastor or that I even possess these skills.) But I have consciously decided that I can do more for Gods Kingdom by everyday interaction with people that I cross paths with during "normal" situations. I view myself as a salesman for God. I don't sell life insurance, cars, or gadgets. I sell the Gospel. And I sell it where it's REAL, not where everybody dresses up nice on a Sunday and acts differently.

 

Admirable, but your view, if sincere, is badly needed in the clergy. I agree, need not be a member of the clergy to do good, by no means. As someone who mistrusts the institution and whose faith is less than rock solid, I find very little redeeming about the worldly "church" institution. I live in the bible belt, Dallas area and believe you me, Mammon is alive and well in these parts....

[M30USA]

I live in the bible belt, Dallas area and believe you me, Mammon is alive and well in these parts....

 

Mammon!

 

Sounds like you've been reading the good old King James.

[M30USA]

Admirable, but your view, if sincere, is badly needed in the clergy. I agree, need not be a member of the clergy to do good, by no means. As someone who mistrusts the institution and whose faith is less than rock solid, I find very little redeeming about the worldly "church" institution. I live in the bible belt, Dallas area and believe you me, Mammon is alive and well in these parts....

 

I've been known to witness to Jehovah's Witnesses who come to MY house to convert ME, lol. I pressed the issue to one of them that Jesus was NOT Michael the Archangel (a view that JW's hold but rarely let you in on until you've converted).

[pie2]

At one time, the great pastors of old were considered "modern", and naysayers critiqued their every move (all the while, never stepping up to the plate to contribute to God's Kingdom in most cases, I imagine).

 

M30, can you think of anything positive that these modern gurus have done for our society? Dave Ramsey's message (Mr. Ramsey, who isn't a pastor, as far as I know) seems to help millions learn how to administer the money God has blessed them with in a way that is biblically sound. His message is much different than secular financial advisers; it's based entirely on the word.

[TheFinalWord]

Make the pastor Dave Ramsay. He is primarily a financial guru, who also adds a pinch of Bible verses here and there. (Make sure to keep the REAL stress on financial success and security, rather than the cost of discipleship and entering in at the narrow gate, as Christ spoke of.)

 

Support the pastor with a team of successful business leaders, who also add a pinch of Bible verses here and there. (The real goal is to build bigger buildings, increase the profits of church, and have a business plan. You don't want those...you know...impractical, boring people who pray, wait on the Lord, and possess the gift of spiritual discernment. No. We need to get things done. Grab the bull by the horns.)

 

Lastly, attract a congregation who is primarily concerned with the things of this life, here and now. (Who wants to be one of those "head in the clouds" Christians who is good for nothing? Jesus even said, "My kingdom is not of this world--" Wait. Um. No, scratch that. Paul said, "Conform not to the ways of this world but--" Oops. Nevermind.

 

You know what? Who needs church anyway. Let's just attend a financial security workshop. Yea, that's better. Basically it gets the same thing done, anyway.

 

I respect you M30, but is there absolutely anything that pastors are allowed to teach on other than sin? I'm being serious.

 

Half of the book of Proverbs is practical principles for handing money. Not every gift in the church is related to evangelism IMHO.

 

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

One of the main faults I see with the church is a critical spirit that it is either my way of doing things or the high way. God is a lot more diverse in His ability to minister. If not, gentiles would not have received Paul; minister to the gentiles.

 

IMHO the church used to serve as the main community center. Heck, church was converted into school house for most of the week. Churches need to do more to educate and provide for the community. More time serving (love is a verb), less time telling everyone what they are doing wrong.

 

Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

[M30USA]

At one time, the great pastors of old were considered "modern", and naysayers critiqued their every move (all the while, never stepping up to the plate to contribute to God's Kingdom in most cases, I imagine).

 

Old or modern, it doesn't matter. The issue is whether or not it's Scriptural. For example, the idea of buying salvation with money, taught by Catholic Church, was the "old" practice at one point. Then Luther came along with the "new" view by listing the infamous list on their front door. "New" views are often great--as long as they are Scriptural. The problem, however, is that many churches today don't believe Scripture is applicable today. So they either change it or disregard it to confirm to our society.

 

M30, can you think of anything positive that these modern gurus have done for our society? Dave Ramsey's message (Mr. Ramsey, who isn't a pastor, as far as I know) seems to help millions learn how to administer the money God has blessed them with in a way that is biblically sound. His message is much different than secular financial advisers; it's based entirely on the word.

 

You might be surprised that I have read Dave Ramsay's book, "Total Money Makeover", from front to back. He says many things that are true. But he makes the same theological error that pastors make. He says that if you follow his guidelines, you WILL reach financial success. The problem with this is that it disregards God as being absolutely sovereign. The Bible says God brings both riches and poverty. Yes, it is a general truth that diligent hands tend to produce abundance, but ultimately God can thwart your plans in an instant. He can also, if he chooses, send great wealth to a person who neither worked for it nor wanted it. Lastly, the biggest mistake of all, is the illusion of security. Nobody is secure! Even if you are, there is always plain old death! Then Bible teaches us the opposite: that security comes from The Lord alone. And it also says that God is the provider of our daily bread, not us.

 

About all the truly sound advice I get out of Ramsay's book is to not be a lazy sloth, pay back your debt, and don't waste money. Truthfully I knew that already. These are things EVERYONE should follow. But I'm afraid the MAIN ATTRACTION to his book is the idea of finding security apart from God and having wealth in this life.

[M30USA]

I respect you M30, but is there absolutely anything that pastors are allowed to teach on other than sin? I'm being serious.

 

Half of the book of Proverbs is practical principles for handing money. Not every gift in the church is related to evangelism IMHO.

 

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

One of the main faults I see with the church is a critical spirit that it is either my way of doing things or the high way. God is a lot more diverse in His ability to minister. If not, gentiles would not have received Paul; minister to the gentiles.

 

IMHO the church used to serve as the main community center. Heck, church was converted into school house for most of the week. Churches need to do more to educate and provide for the community. More time serving (love is a verb), less time telling everyone what they are doing wrong.

 

Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

 

I only stress sin and repentance because the subject is severely lacking. If society at large stressed sin and repentance alone and nothing more, you'd be asking me why I only talk about mercy and grace.

 

Just for the record, I have received criticism from fundamentalist Christians of certain sects for saying that homosexuals, if repented, will be received into heaven. I also believe God will receive into heaven a repented murderer and not an unrepented "nice family person" who rejects Christ. How's that for grace? I do firmly believe in absolute grace. But it must come after repentance (unfortunately we don't hear this much).

Edited May 25, 2013 by M30USA

[pie2]

About all the truly sound advice I get out of Ramsay's book is to not be a lazy sloth, pay back your debt, and don't waste money. Truthfully I knew that already. These are things EVERYONE should follow. But I'm afraid the MAIN ATTRACTION to his book is the idea of finding security apart from God and having wealth in this life.

 

Fear not, M30. I don't get that impression from Dave Ramsey's mission at all! I really think he wants to help others minister their money properly, according to God's plan. If he's been blessed with wise financial acumen, I'm glad he's sharing it with everyone. God gifted him in this way, and I think we should all focus on our gifts. Why wouldn't you want others (who don't already "know" how to payback debt etc.) to benefit from this info?

 

You're free to think otherwise. You can expend your energies criticizing nearly every other pastor who isn't Stanely or Spurgeon (or whoever your very select few of trustworthy pastors are ).

 

I don't think Jesus commanded this outlook at all though.

 

In fact, I thought I read that you're not attending church at all...? M30, that's not goodl! You keep throwing stones at everyone, and I'm sure you know what Jesus said about that .

[pie2]

I respect you M30, but is there absolutely anything that pastors are allowed to teach on other than sin? I'm being serious.

 

Half of the book of Proverbs is practical principles for handing money. Not every gift in the church is related to evangelism IMHO.

 

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

One of the main faults I see with the church is a critical spirit that it is either my way of doing things or the high way. God is a lot more diverse in His ability to minister. If not, gentiles would not have received Paul; minister to the gentiles.

 

IMHO the church used to serve as the main community center. Heck, church was converted into school house for most of the week. Churches need to do more to educate and provide for the community. More time serving (love is a verb), less time telling everyone what they are doing wrong.

 

Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

 

Preach! Yes, I completely agree.

[M30USA]

Fear not, M30. I don't get that impression from Dave Ramsey's mission at all! I really think he wants to help others minister their money properly, according to God's plan. If he's been blessed with wise financial acumen, I'm glad he's sharing it with everyone. God gifted him in this way, and I think we should all focus on our gifts. Why wouldn't you want others (who don't already "know" how to payback debt etc.) to benefit from this info?

 

You're free to think otherwise. You can expend your energies criticizing nearly every other pastor who isn't Stanely or Spurgeon (or whoever your very select few of trustworthy pastors are ).

 

I don't think Jesus commanded this outlook at all though.

 

In fact, I thought I read that you're not attending church at all...? M30, that's not goodl! You keep throwing stones at everyone, and I'm sure you know what Jesus said about that .

 

I do have a church. I just dont go regularly. My church is every day.

 

At work just last week I had a discussion about Jesus with a coworker and my friends and family know I'm a freak because I never stop talking about Jesus and the Bible.

[TheFinalWord]

I only stress sin and repentance because the subject is severely lacking. If society at large stressed sin and repentance alone and nothing more, you'd be asking me why I only talk about mercy and grace.

 

Just for the record, I have received criticism from fundamentalist Christians of certain sects for saying that homosexuals, if repented, will be received into heaven. I also believe God will receive into heaven a repented murderer and not an unrepented "nice family person" who rejects Christ. How's that for grace? I do firmly believe in absolute grace. But it must come after repentance (unfortunately we don't hear this much).

 

Okay, that is fine to consider. But isn't his ministry primarily for Christians? So, he is edifying the body of Christ by teaching about finances? I don't see what is wrong with that. I don't know his ministry that well, but I think that if you are charging him as a false Christian you have some really strong evidence?

 

I believe in modeling ministry after Christ. He embodied Grace and Truth.

 

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

Too many people focus only on Grace and too many focus only on Truth. Christ gave both.

 

The church used to be the focal point of community service. I think we need more in this area. We had a teacher come into church and he gave a great series on finances. How to save, plan, IRS 101, the works. It was awesome. We need more church-based education like that.

[pie2]

I do have a church. I just dont go regularly. My church is every day.

 

At work just last week I had a discussion about Jesus with a coworker and my friends and family know I'm a freak because I never stop talking about Jesus and the Bible.

 

It doesn't matter. God said that fellowship is important.

 

I hope you'll pray about this, M30. I hope that you'll desire a less critical heart, and open yourself up to loving others, despite their misgivings.

 

That is what God has commanded.

[M30USA]

Okay, that is fine to consider. But isn't his ministry primarily for Christians? So, he is edifying the body of Christ by teaching about finances? I don't see what is wrong with that. I don't know his ministry that well, but I think that if you are charging him as a false Christian you have some really strong evidence?

 

I believe in modeling ministry after Christ. He embodied Grace and Truth.

 

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

Too many people focus only on Grace and too many focus only on Truth. Christ gave both.

 

The church used to be the focal point of community service. I think we need more in this area. We had a teacher come into church and he gave a great series on finances. How to save, plan, IRS 101, the works. It was awesome. We need more church-based education like that.

 

I don't think I ever called Ramsay a false Christian. We are all imperfect. All I've ever intended to do is show the truth as laid out in Scripture. My fear is that what attracts us to Ramsay is more than just sound financial advice like paying debt and cutting spending. I fear that we are attracted to him because of one word: SECURITY. Security comes from no one but God. If Ramsay intended to write a book on how to pay debt smartly and cut spending, I'd applaud him. But he didnt. I've read his book entirely! The main point is to seek SECURITY through money, and this is why the book sells. And the general tone I pickup up on, having read it word for word, is that God is not sovereign--but rather just a CEO in the sky who rewards our "stewardship" with blessings.

[M30USA]

It doesn't matter. God said that fellowship is important.

 

I hope you'll pray about this, M30. I hope that you'll desire a less critical heart, and open yourself up to loving others, despite their misgivings.

 

That is what God has commanded.

 

Lol, maybe so. But John the Baptist got his head chopped off for being critical, I guess.

 

Maybe I'm just meant to be a "voice of one calling in the wilderness: make straight a path for The Lord". Why can't I be this way? After all, Osteen is the exact opposite and he's allowed and even famous.

[M30USA]

Anyway, I appreciate your input, TFW and Pie. I will consider what you've said.

[TheFinalWord]

I don't think I ever called Ramsay a false Christian. We are all imperfect. All I've ever intended to do is show the truth as laid out in Scripture. My fear is that what attracts us to Ramsay is more than just sound financial advice like paying debt and cutting spending. I fear that we are attracted to him because of one word: SECURITY. Security comes from no one but God. If Ramsay intended to write a book on how to pay debt smartly and cut spending, I'd applaud him. But he didnt. I've read his book entirely! The main point is to seek SECURITY through money, and this is why the book sells. And the general tone I pickup up on, having read it word for word, is that God is not sovereign--but rather just a CEO in the sky who rewards our "stewardship" with blessings.

 

Okay, I haven't read the book. But it just seems like you are saying that "here is how to build a modern church, talk about money". And any minister that talks about money, blessing, etc is misguided. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I see church as a multi-faceted facility that does preach the gospel but also educates people on how to live in this world. The bible is loaded with practical life principles related to money, sex, ethics, health, leadership, government, success, etc. Why not minister on all of it? Especially since serving in these areas is a good way to demonstrate love in a world loaded with pain and hurting people. To me the church should be a lighthouse. A beacon where anyone can come and feel welcome and receive help...in whatever they need.

[TheFinalWord]

Anyway, I appreciate your input, TFW and Pie. I will consider what you've said.

 

No problem. I'm not attacking BTW Just asking. I see you have enough debates for 100 people in this forum lol I don't want to add any stress to you.

[pie2]

I see you have enough debates for 100 people in this forum lol I don't want to add any stress to you.

 

I think he loves it. :laugh:

[M30USA]

No problem. I'm not attacking BTW Just asking. I see you have enough debates for 100 people in this forum lol I don't want to add any stress to you.

 

Lol, and if you're wondering, I was NOT in debate clubs during high school or college.

 

(Waiting for a certain poster to say, "Good cuz you would've gotten "destroyed"! Lol.)

[pie2]

Lol, maybe so. But John the Baptist got his head chopped off for being critical, I guess.

 

Maybe I'm just meant to be a "voice of one calling in the wilderness: make straight a path for The Lord". Why can't I be this way? After all, Osteen is the exact opposite and he's allowed and even famous.

 

Don't ask me, ask God. Pray about it. You can only do what is in your heart.

 

Plus, you're M30, you're not John the Baptist. You have to do what God wants for you.

[M30USA]

Plus, you're M30, you're not John the Baptist. You have to do what God wants for you.

 

Hey, Elijah is coming again. How do you know it's not me? Hehe, kidding. (Besides, Elijah will come out of the sky in a UFO, you should know, hehe. For real, that's what the Jews thought. They were/are waiting for Elijah to come down from the sky.)