To the lonely fed up single men - a woman's perspective on the same issues...

[Suave]

There are stretches where I am largely successful being single and there are also stretches where I am lonely as can be.

 

It's all part of the game.

[Eternal Sunshine]

OP, out of curiosity, when was the last time you rejected a guy that expressed an interest in having a relationship with you? And I mean any guy, regardless of looks or job or age etc

[Revolver]

To me there's 2 stages of this process, theres step one which is the actual dating and theres step 2 which is the relationship. For the most part you can't be in a relationship without dating and that's the problem most struggling men have, they simply can't get dates.

 

The reason struggling women have it easier(and woman in general) is because they're always able to get and go on dates. It may not be a great date or it may be great but not end in a relationship but at least your in the game, Those guys aren't.

 

IMO the only reason this is even a "debate" is because most women either confuse dating with LTR relationships or completely disragard the dating process if it doesn't end up with their perfect man. This is where idea like "well I've been on 12 dates this year,slept with 4 of those guys, but I'm totally on the same level as a guy who hasn't been on one or had a woman interested in him in years because heh we both aren't in a relationship right?"

 

Um... No

[Eternal Sunshine]

To me there's 2 stages of this process, theres step one which is the actual dating and theres step 2 which is the relationship. For the most part you can't be in a relationship without dating and that's the problem most struggling men have, they simply can't get dates.

 

The reason struggling women have it easier(and woman in general) is because they're always able to get and go on dates. It may not be a great date or it may be great but not end in a relationship but at least your in the game, Those guys aren't.

 

IMO the only reason this is even a "debate" is because most women either confuse dating with LTR relationships or completely disragard the dating process if it doesn't end up with their perfect man. This is where idea like "well I've been on 12 dates this year,slept with 4 of those guys, but I'm totally on the same level as a guy who hasn't been on one or had a woman interested in him in years because heh we both aren't in a relationship right?"

 

Um... No

 

Why is it not the same? The end result is the same, both are single and unhappy.

 

You are basically talking about ego.

[USMCHokie]

Why is it not the same? The end result is the same, both are single and unhappy.

 

Endstate is not the same. Yes, you're both not in serious relationships, but the woman has the advantage of experience. Dates are learning experiences that help teach you about yourself as well as the mechanics of dating. And having sex also teaches you about yourself as well as...well, the mechanics of sex. That is, you get better at both with practice.

 

Let's take two guys, both are not in a relationship. However, in the past six months, guy 1 has been on some dates, met a few women, might have gone out enough times to sleep with one or two, but never met the right person. Then take guy 2, who has not been on a single date in those six months, not for lack of trying. Do you think these two gentlemen are on the same page...?

[PhoenixRysing]

I might have missed this in one of the OP's posts, but it seemed to have been largely ignored. OP, how physically attractive do you think you are. And more importantly, how physically attractive do other men think you are?

 

In my very first post I noted that many have told me I am attractive (gorgeous, beautiful, etc) but I struggle to evaluate myself since in my mind attractiveness is a function of what it nets you (relationships and dates), hence the quest to find out how people really perceive me. Meanwhile, I do lack for compliments that indicate others do find me very good looking. However, my conclusion is that my attractiveness is irrelevant. As I mentioned, I could be gorgeous or I could be disgusting, it does not matter since my looks do not net interest.

 

OP, out of curiosity, when was the last time you rejected a guy that expressed an interest in having a relationship with you? And I mean any guy, regardless of looks or job or age etc

 

I have not. OK, there was one guy from online that lost it on me for having to delay a conversation due to strep throat. I nixed him for disrespecting me. I have also turned down countless married men as I don't roll that way. It is odd, I should modify my experience notes to be more closely aligned with what insecure_girl has pointed out. I actually do get propositioned - by married men. I don't consider those valid options though. It is as if they have more gumption since they have someone to go home to - no loss if I say no?

[hastoloverush]

What an excellent letter from a woman who knows my heart...and we have never met! I just live in my head all the time and fantasize relationships. I"ve tried the online scene. The men there are NOT interested...I am too old. These are 40 y.o. somethings wanting 20 something girfriends. I eliminate any guy who has to show his toys in the picture...motorcycles, boats, bare chests (yuk)...all left behind. I do not appreciate any of that. Since I always torture myself w. those who are emotionally unavailable, why add such an axxxhole from the get go?

Insecure egos demand we put ourselves down and kowtow to the penis. Sorry. I will be alone vs. have to emotionally prop up some adolescent in the body of a man.

BTW...there do exist many many men who are great-not intimidated by my intelligence,etc. and they get it that we strong girls sometimes just need to be given recognition, support and love. Don't give up but more importantly, don't change who you are...for anyone! Many blessings.

[PhoenixRysing]

Endstate is not the same. Yes, you're both not in serious relationships, but the woman has the advantage of experience. Dates are learning experiences that help teach you about yourself as well as the mechanics of dating. And having sex also teaches you about yourself as well as...well, the mechanics of sex. That is, you get better at both with practice.

 

Let's take two guys, both are not in a relationship. However, in the past six months, guy 1 has been on some dates, met a few women, might have gone out enough times to sleep with one or two, but never met the right person. Then take guy 2, who has not been on a single date in those six months, not for lack of trying. Do you think these two gentlemen are on the same page...?

 

I don't disagree with this. I think having people show some interest can help in many ways, including upping your esteem and confidence with the opposite sex. The two have different experiences where one is more likely to keep looking and the other to give up assuming no one will have interest in them. My story is much like guy 2, my last date was in January (from Match.com) and it went horribly awry. Other than that the well has been dry with no interest expressed and no positive responses to my overtures.

 

Again, I am not saying some men don't have a rough go, I am only saying that some women do as well. And even those that do get dates still have a rough time, particularly women who tend to wonder of their worth if the only reason men date or spend time with them is for a roll in the hay. This is not a debate - it is a statement of fact and the experiences that we all have trying to form connection.

 

If you prefer to believe that all women have it easier despite the preponderance of experience posted in this thread exposing the heartache that many women have with dating, then that is your right. I would ask you to consider that this very perspective - women have it easier - is divisive - and serves only to further separate you from women. Women can pick up on your belief of separateness and lack of understanding and this perpetuates your singledom further. It is not unlike your own personal sword and shield.

[PhoenixRysing]

In my very first post I noted that many have told me I am attractive (gorgeous, beautiful, etc) but I struggle to evaluate myself since in my mind attractiveness is a function of what it nets you (relationships and dates), hence the quest to find out how people really perceive me. Meanwhile, I do not lack for compliments that indicate others do find me very good looking. However, my conclusion is that my attractiveness is irrelevant. As I mentioned, I could be gorgeous or I could be disgusting, it does not matter since my looks do not net interest.

 

 

 

I have not. OK, there was one guy from online that lost it on me for having to delay a conversation due to strep throat. I nixed him for disrespecting me. I have also turned down countless married men as I don't roll that way. It is odd, I should modify my experience notes to be more closely aligned with what insecure_girl has pointed out. I actually do get propositioned - by married men. I don't consider those valid options though. It is as if they have more gumption since they have someone to go home to - no loss if I say no?

 

Edited - as this should read I do NOT lack for compliments.

[PhoenixRysing]

how to you choose which guys to sleep with? is it by physical attraction? are these lonely guys who haven't had much sex before or are these guys who sleep around?

 

I chose to sleep with those I have attraction toward - and yes physical attraction is one element of that. For me physical attraction tends to stem from the mind though - they are all men I have enjoyed the company of well outside the bedroom. Some of my former lovers are quite aesthetic by our societal standards, others quite plain. What they all have in common is a quick wit, a gleam in the eye, and the ability to make me laugh at myself. Other than that, they rarely share any physical similarities. And as to the second part of your questioning, I would say neither. They are men with healthy sex drives who have had healthy relationships and at my age this means they have slept with several women before me but none are what you would call "players."

 

What an excellent letter from a woman who knows my heart...and we have never met! I just live in my head all the time and fantasize relationships. I"ve tried the online scene. The men there are NOT interested...I am too old. These are 40 y.o. somethings wanting 20 something girfriends. I eliminate any guy who has to show his toys in the picture...motorcycles, boats, bare chests (yuk)...all left behind. I do not appreciate any of that. Since I always torture myself w. those who are emotionally unavailable, why add such an axxxhole from the get go?

Insecure egos demand we put ourselves down and kowtow to the penis. Sorry. I will be alone vs. have to emotionally prop up some adolescent in the body of a man.

BTW...there do exist many many men who are great-not intimidated by my intelligence,etc. and they get it that we strong girls sometimes just need to be given recognition, support and love. Don't give up but more importantly, don't change who you are...for anyone! Many blessings.

 

Thank you! I am glad you were able to feel your experience validated through my words. I have not given up per se, only given in to the reality that I face. For me believing in a man who can accept and love me as I am is rather like believing in the flying spaghetti monster. Meanwhile, I have not lost hope, only lost faith. I know it boils down to me and something I can do to change the outcome. I am just not entirely convinced the cost is a price worth paying. I love who I am and I have accomplished, changing that seems counter to my ultimate outcome which would be to find a lover who adores me because of who I am, not because of what I have let go to find him.

 

I suspect there is some middle ground, edges that can be softened as another posted mentioned. I am just wary of changing much more than I already have for fear of diluting the personality that has carried me so far and benefited me immeasurably with work, family, and friends.

[USMCHokie]

In my very first post I noted that many have told me I am attractive (gorgeous, beautiful, etc) but I struggle to evaluate myself since in my mind attractiveness is a function of what it nets you (relationships and dates), hence the quest to find out how people really perceive me.

 

I heartily agree. You are only as attractive as what you attract.

 

Meanwhile, I do lack for compliments that indicate others do find me very good looking. However, my conclusion is that my attractiveness is irrelevant. As I mentioned, I could be gorgeous or I could be disgusting, it does not matter since my looks do not net interest.

 

If your looks don't net interest, then you are not as attractive as you think you are.

[PhoenixRysing]

I heartily agree. You are only as attractive as what you attract.

 

If your looks don't net interest, then you are not as attractive as you think you are.

 

I find it intriguing that you appear to be working to knock me down a peg when I have already explained that I don't actually think I am all that attractive for the reasons I have already stated - reasons you appear to agree with.

 

No matter, I am trying to share perspective on what some women face promote discourse that is connection oriented. If you chose to believe I am hideous it really is no skin off my back. I chose to believe that I am beautiful as I have had enough compliments to indicate this is a commonly held perception. I look in the mirror and simply see me - and I don't judge myself one way or the other (not bad, not good, just me). However, I do also agree that I am not attractive - as this beauty does not inspire attraction from men.

 

I encourage you to continue to do as I am doing as ask yourself if your current beliefs are getting you the results you want. If not, then perhaps opening yourself to an alternate perspective (that we all share common issues and concerns, that we all share common pain, that many of us both female and male are confused with our place in this world) would help to change that more than a continued insistence that you have it worse than me (or anyone).

 

Personally, I accept that my current values, norms, and characteristics will not by in large, net me the outcome I want. I have been on a fact finding mission to figure out why that was and thanks to my very candid friend I have a better understanding of it. At this point, the choice for me remains how much I am willing to give up to gain what I see as the prize. You have the same choice to make.

[USMCHokie]

If you prefer to believe that all women have it easier despite the preponderance of experience posted in this thread exposing the heartache that many women have with dating, then that is your right. I would ask you to consider that this very perspective - women have it easier - is divisive - and serves only to further separate you from women. Women can pick up on your belief of separateness and lack of understanding and this perpetuates your singledom further. It is not unlike your own personal sword and shield.

 

I think that the common advice given to those men struggling with dating, i.e., lower your standards, will be met with more objection from women. Do you feel that this is an acceptable course of action for women in general?

[PhoenixRysing]

I think that the common advice given to those men struggling with dating, i.e., lower your standards, will be met with more objection from women. Do you feel that this is an acceptable course of action for women in general?

 

Fair question. I think that some people use standards as their own personal shields, looking for the perfect person that does not exist. In these cases, I do think it warrants some introspection to determine if standards have become a shield to avoid commitment and connection. For others, standards are a way to determine long term compatibility and encourage connection with those who would more likely be a positive impact. For instance, one of my standards is that a man be single and available, another is that he have a good work ethic. These standards do not serve to separate me - they serve to connect me with like-minded individuals.

 

What is boils down to, is to ask yourself whether your standards serve to add positive connections to your life or whether they serve to be further divisive from the people you could be connecting with.

 

Each of us has to answer that question individually.

[USMCHokie]

I find it intriguing that you appear to be working to knock me down a peg when I have already explained that I don't actually think I am all that attractive for the reasons I have already stated - reasons you appear to agree with.

 

Not trying to knock you down a peg at all. I'm only asserting that when women start throwing out statements like, "men don't like me or are intimidated by me because I'm too smart, or too successful, or too [insert any non-physical trait/adjective here]," then chances are it's physical attractiveness that is holding them back. They simply use empowering words about themselves to feel better. When I first read your post, Lena Dunham immediately popped into my head without even knowing what you look like.

 

No matter, I am trying to share perspective on what some women face promote discourse that is connection oriented. If you chose to believe I am hideous it really is no skin off my back. I chose to believe that I am beautiful as I have had enough compliments to indicate this is a commonly held perception. I look in the mirror and simply see me - and I don't judge myself one way or the other (not bad, not good, just me). However, I do also agree that I am not attractive - as this beauty does not inspire attraction from men.

 

And actions speak louder than words. You can sing praises about a car, but until you buy it and drive it off the lot, the words don't mean a thing.

[PhoenixRysing]

don't know what to make of this but i'd say experiment with your criteria, because there's a lot of guys hungry for relationships and your end goal i'd think would be to match up with one of these guys. the gleam in the eye thing is interesting. I've been criticized for not having it myself by a couple women, i don't know why.

 

That's just it - I have no defined criteria. I don't chase short men, tall men, one race or the other. I am simply looking for connection, the spark of something special. When it is there, I adhere to it, and when it isn't I don't.

 

The gleam shows excitement about life, about the person you are with, the wonders of the world. Are you happy? Are you intrigued by others? When you are dating women, are you curious about what makes them tick? This is what causes the spark and what causes the gleam. Does that help?

[Revolver]

 

If you prefer to believe that all women have it easier despite the preponderance of experience posted in this thread exposing the heartache that many women have with dating, then that is your right. I would ask you to consider that this very perspective - women have it easier - is divisive - and serves only to further separate you from women. Women can pick up on your belief of separateness and lack of understanding and this perpetuates your singledom further. It is not unlike your own personal sword and shield.

 

I don't think anyone says All women or that women have no issues. The argument has always been that the average woman has it easier when it comes to getting dates,sexual encounters, and relationships then the average man. Also that when you compare female dating problems to male dating problems it's night and day. I'm sorry if I don't put the 25 year old woman who can't get the guy she's sleeping with to commit in the same category as the 25 year old man who's never kissed a girl. It's not the same, well at least to me it isn't

[PhoenixRysing]

Not trying to knock you down a peg at all. I'm only asserting that when women start throwing out statements like, "men don't like me or are intimidated by me because I'm too smart, or too successful, or too [insert any non-physical trait/adjective here]," then chances are it's physical attractiveness that is holding them back. They simply use empowering words about themselves to feel better. When I first read your post, Lena Dunham immediately popped into my head without even knowing what you look like.

 

 

And actions speak louder than words. You can sing praises about a car, but until you buy it and drive it off the lot, the words don't mean a thing.

 

I did not throw out the assertion - my friends did. I actually pointed out the fallacy in their assertion as adhering to their thoughts was proving unhelpful. Men may well be intimidated by me, or not attracted to me, or attracted initially and then uninterested later (due to my own male tendencies). I hold that this is all irrelevant - true or not. As any of the answers result in the same impact to me - no love.

 

I can only change me - I can't change men as a whole. The question is how much of that am I inclined to do, how much of that can I actually do, and what's it worth to me to do it.

[Els]

Thanks for sharing, OP. While I may not agree with some of your observations, I'll certainly give credit to a genuine, heartfelt, well-thought-out post when I see one.

 

I agree that in general, 'success' seems to require more traditionally 'male' traits than traditionally 'female' ones, for whatever reasons. This is the dilemma that many successful women face, I think - they find they need to put on an entirely different persona in their careers, compared to in their relationships. On the other hand, there seems to be more natural overlap for men.

 

However, I have long been a believer that there is always someone for everyone, that having a smaller pool of compatible people is not always a disadvantage. Consider the men in your social circle. Is there any commonality between them? Could you get to know men from other backgrounds, other social circles, other demographics in general, til you find your 'niche'?

 

If you are looking for a connection, I'm glad you are not selling yourself short. In the end, there is no lonelier moment than when you are with someone whom you find you absolutely cannot relate to.

[USMCHokie]

As any of the answers result in the same impact to me - no love.

 

OP, do you talk the way you write?

[fortyninethousand322]

There are two key parts of this topic. One is whether or not women have it easier than men, and the other is whether women have it easier than the "dateless loser" men. Two separate issues, IMO.

 

The average guy who goes on dates fairly regularly (though not daily) has an upper edge over the average woman, IMO. For a myriad of reasons that I won't really go into. But I'm sure people can figure it out.

 

Now, being one of those "dateless losers" myself, I think pretty much all women have an advantage over me. I feel inferior, I have never felt like I was the leader or the person in control of a situation involving a woman. Any dates or interactions I've had have involved me trying to justify why I'm "good enough" for a woman. I never ever feel like I have an advantage in dating. Ever. I'm 25 and I've never kissed a girl (heck never even held hands really). So while I understand how you feel, I don't think it makes me change my position.

 

There have been other female posters on LS who have posted similar stories. One I actually saw on a dating site and messaged her (not mentioning this forum). She never replied, though continued posting threads about how desperate she was and how she'd never find love . Apparently she wasn't that desperate if she couldn't be bothered to have a conversation with a decent guy like me.

 

Another poster mentioned white collar men who initiate. And in my view, yes those are the quality types of men that you should date OP. Guys like me aren't really men, we're still boys, and will likely always be so.

 

So I don't know what to tell you other than that...

[ThaWholigan]

I don't think anyone says All women or that women have no issues. The argument has always been that the average woman has it easier when it comes to getting dates,sexual encounters, and relationships then the average man. Also that when you compare female dating problems to male dating problems it's night and day. I'm sorry if I don't put the 25 year old woman who can't get the guy she's sleeping with to commit in the same category as the 25 year old man who's never kissed a girl. It's not the same, well at least to me it isn't

She's right though - it further serves to separate in many cases, thus exacerbating the problem. When I stopped believing how "easy women have it", was when it became easier for me in general.

[USMCHokie]

Any dates or interactions I've had have involved me trying to justify why I'm "good enough" for a woman.

 

And the proper approach should be determining whether she's "good enough" for you...

[fortyninethousand322]

And the proper approach should be determining whether she's "good enough" for you...

 

Easier said than done.

 

Besides, almost any woman is good enough for me, as long as she's not a serial killer and is at least somewhat remotely in decent shape. So that's never been an issue.

[USMCHokie]

She's right though - it further serves to separate in many cases, thus exacerbating the problem. When I stopped believing how "easy women have it", was when it became easier for me in general.

 

Well the underlying achievement here is understanding and gaining empathy with women, i.e., learning that their desires and values are not the same as men's desires and values. When you are able to stop projecting what you think is attractive to what women think is attractive, then you can adapt yourself to be desirable to them.

 

The problem with that lack of empathy and understanding is that men will try to change traits about themselves which men find desirable, rather than improve traits which women find desirable. And it's no different for women. When you're able to realize what men are really looking for, then they are one step closer to success.

 

So bottom line, I agree.