To the lonely fed up single men - a woman's perspective on the same issues...

[PhoenixRysing]

you have stated you have male tendencies. frankly i don't know if this hurting you or not. depends not just on what they are but what type of men you're meeting.

 

you mentioned earlier that the men you meet with have a healthy sex drive and have had an average number of partners. would you be open to a guy who had a wilder past but calmed down? conversely would you be open to someone who's yet to have sex?

 

Absolutely. I am believer that the past/or lack their of is in the past. I focus on who a man is today and whether we can mutually support each other in our goals for tomorrow. Whatever made him into the man he became is fine by me.

 

Thanks for sharing, OP. While I may not agree with some of your observations, I'll certainly give credit to a genuine, heartfelt, well-thought-out post when I see one.

 

I agree that in general, 'success' seems to require more traditionally 'male' traits than traditionally 'female' ones, for whatever reasons. This is the dilemma that many successful women face, I think - they find they need to put on an entirely different persona in their careers, compared to in their relationships. On the other hand, there seems to be more natural overlap for men.

 

However, I have long been a believer that there is always someone for everyone, that having a smaller pool of compatible people is not always a disadvantage. Consider the men in your social circle. Is there any commonality between them? Could you get to know men from other backgrounds, other social circles, other demographics in general, til you find your 'niche'?

 

If you are looking for a connection, I'm glad you are not selling yourself short. In the end, there is no lonelier moment than when you are with someone whom you find you absolutely cannot relate to.

 

Thank you Elswyth. I appreciate the compliments and the thoughts. I agree that a smaller pool is not a bad thing and certainly I have not met all the worlds single men so I can't say that their is not a man perfect for me among all of them. What I can say, is that for the moment, I have chosen to take heart to the candid feedback I have gotten and try to better understand all the men around me and to let go of the idea that I may ever have a traditional courtship. This is not a bad thing. I have wonderful friends, coworkers, and family. I appreciate them and the life I have a great deal. Along this road, if I find the mythical him, I will be glad to see him.

 

 

OP, do you talk the way you write?

No...I drop the f-bomb, add humor and sarcasm, and generally inject a lot more warmth in what I say - much of which would be cause for breaking forum etiquette or be lost in translation were it written down.

[fortyninethousand322]

She's right though - it further serves to separate in many cases, thus exacerbating the problem. When I stopped believing how "easy women have it", was when it became easier for me in general.

 

While I do think women have a distinct advantage over me personally, I've always been more concerned with how easy most other guys have it compared to me.

 

I look at some of the problems men usually complain about (clingy girlfriends, naggy girlfriends, girl said I love you too soon, etc.) and I think "if only I could be so lucky"...

[USMCHokie]

Easier said than done.

 

Of course it is. And the first step is believing that you are worthy of being discerning.

[Els]

Well the underlying achievement here is understanding and gaining empathy with women, i.e., learning that their desires and values are not the same as men's desires and values. When you are able to stop projecting what you think is attractive to what women think is attractive, then you can adapt yourself to be desirable to them.

 

The problem with that lack of empathy and understanding is that men will try to change traits about themselves which men find desirable, rather than improve traits which women find desirable. And it's no different for women. When you're able to realize what men are really looking for, then they are one step closer to success.

 

So bottom line, I agree.

 

Huh. And here I was thinking that Wholigan's statement was as simple as saying that when you're focused on how much 'easier' everyone else has it, it's impossible to make any sort of personal progress because your focus is on the wrong place...

 

 

 

Thank you Elswyth. I appreciate the compliments and the thoughts. I agree that a smaller pool is not a bad thing and certainly I have not met all the worlds single men so I can't say that their is not a man perfect for me among all of them. What I can say, is that for the moment, I have chosen to take heart to the candid feedback I have gotten and try to better understand all the men around me and to let go of the idea that I may ever have a traditional courtship. This is not a bad thing. I have wonderful friends, coworkers, and family. I appreciate them and the life I have a great deal. Along this road, if I find the mythical him, I will be glad to see him.

 

You're most welcome. IMO it's great that you're living life to the fullest, rather than allowing dating to consume you.

 

What sort of 'traditional courtship' were you expecting? Is that related to the man initiating/pursuing?

[Els]

 

I look at some of the problems men usually complain about (clingy girlfriends, naggy girlfriends, girl said I love you too soon, etc.) and I think "if only I could be so lucky"...

 

I assure you that you'll be thinking otherwise after several months with a naggy, clingy girlfriend. There is a good reason why many men choose to be single over dealing with that.

[Eternal Sunshine]

OK, this is what puzzles me. I agree that looks are a huge factor, even more so if you are a woman trying to attract men. But, all around me I see women that are average at best, overweight, plain etc in loving relationships and marriages. Then there are women that are objectively at least as attractive ( and often more so) that can't get a man at all. I can't work that one out.

[fortyninethousand322]

I assure you that you'll be thinking otherwise after several months with a naggy, clingy girlfriend. There is a good reason why many men choose to be single over dealing with that.

 

Well, I'd love to have the opportunity to find out for sure...

[PhoenixRysing]

Well the underlying achievement here is understanding and gaining empathy with women, i.e., learning that their desires and values are not the same as men's desires and values. When you are able to stop projecting what you think is attractive to what women think is attractive, then you can adapt yourself to be desirable to them.

 

The problem with that lack of empathy and understanding is that men will try to change traits about themselves which men find desirable, rather than improve traits which women find desirable. And it's no different for women. When you're able to realize what men are really looking for, then they are one step closer to success.

 

So bottom line, I agree.

 

Well said. And precisely my specific conundrum. I accept and acknowledge that my particular problem stems from what men find traditionally attractive and that quite frankly - I am not it. Even if from the outside I am the most stunning woman in the world, my insides inspire companionship, friendship, and competition from me - not love.

 

The men here that are constantly struggling would do well to take this very empathy and understand that I am but one woman and each of us has a story. While the average woman can be laid more often than the average man (as another poster pointed out) I could easily assert that the average man is more easily loved than the average man (hence all the women worried about being needy or clingy, and all the men wanting out of relationships - check the break up boards and compare numbers there.

 

Ultimately, what it boils down to is that we tend to focus on what is absent in our lives, not what is abundant and we place the importance on the "missing piece." If we can take time to learn more individual stories we can find more connections. If we empathize with the average story and recognize that neither position is inferior or superior, we create an environment where those individual stories can be told.

[USMCHokie]

No...I drop the f-bomb, add humor and sarcasm, and generally inject a lot more warmth in what I say - much of which would be cause for breaking forum etiquette or be lost in translation were it written down.

 

No, what I meant to say is that your prose, although very good in my opinion and some of the best I've seen on LS, makes you sound slightly douchey and uppity, and if you talk using the same higher vocabulary, sentence structure, and general tone, then I can see it being a turn-off to men.

[fortyninethousand322]

OK, this is what puzzles me. I agree that looks are a huge factor, even more so if you are a woman trying to attract men. But, all around me I see women that are average at best, overweight, plain etc in loving relationships and marriages. Then there are women that are objectively at least as attractive ( and often more so) that can't get a man at all. I can't work that one out.

 

Hmm, well all the women I know who are married are all in shape, good looking, college educated, young professionals.

 

So, maybe it's the sample you're working with...

[PhoenixRysing]

No, what I meant to say is that your prose, although very good in my opinion and some of the best I've seen on LS, makes you sound slightly douchey and uppity, and if you talk using the same higher vocabulary, sentence structure, and general tone, then I can see it being a turn-off to men.

 

I gathered.

[ThaWholigan]

Huh. And here I was thinking that Wholigan's statement was as simple as saying that when you're focused on how much 'easier' everyone else has it, it's impossible to make any sort of personal progress because your focus is on the wrong place...

 

That is what I was saying, but I like what Hokie deduced out of it regardless :D/

[GoodOnPaper]

many of these great men who are not intimidated are the ones who are struggling. what's baffles me are why the women who are struggling and the men who are struggling don't pair up more often.

 

The struggles, while equally felt by the respective genders, are totally different in nature. If men struggle, it's at the attraction/first-date stage -- we're "shy", "boring", "nerdy", "awkward", you name it. If women struggle, it's at converting casual dating to relationships. To pair up a struggling man with a struggling woman, he has to attract her for a first date. That's not likely to happen. She'll filter him out pretty quickly.

 

I give the OP a lot of credit -- her post gives the best insight I've seen on this issue from a woman's perspective. But I don't know how well empathy can be bridged between Struggling Man and Struggling Woman.

[USMCHokie]

OK, this is what puzzles me. I agree that looks are a huge factor, even more so if you are a woman trying to attract men. But, all around me I see women that are average at best, overweight, plain etc in loving relationships and marriages. Then there are women that are objectively at least as attractive ( and often more so) that can't get a man at all. I can't work that one out.

 

Do you think these women were less average, less overweight, and less plain at the beginning of their relationships/marriages and were able to settle into their current appearance...?

[Eternal Sunshine]

Do you think these women were less average, less overweight, and less plain at the beginning of their relationships/marriages and were able to settle into their current appearance...?

 

 

Good point. I have been looking through my Facebook and pretty much without fail, these women looked very different 5 or so years ago. I can see their looks disintegrate with each passing year, weight gain being the most common. So what I see now wasn't what was when they met their SOs

[Revolver]

She's right though - it further serves to separate in many cases, thus exacerbating the problem. When I stopped believing how "easy women have it", was when it became easier for me in general.

 

But then this is under the premise that I think women have it easy. Which I never said.

[USMCHokie]

Good point. I have been looking through my Facebook and pretty much without fail, these women looked very different 5 or so years ago. I can see their looks disintegrate with each passing year, weight gain being the most common. So what I see now wasn't what was when they met their SOs

 

Mmmhmm...the good ol' bait 'n switch... And if these folks were to end their relationships, I'd bet the farm that they'd immediately start working on their appearance to get back to pre-relationship form...

[PhoenixRysing]

No, what I meant to say is that your prose, although very good in my opinion and some of the best I've seen on LS, makes you sound slightly douchey and uppity, and if you talk using the same higher vocabulary, sentence structure, and general tone, then I can see it being a turn-off to men.

 

I think I want to respond to this further. First, thank you for the compliment.

 

Second, you are more right than you can imagine. Although I do not speak in the manner that I write (at least not the way I have written in this thread), I do tend toward hyperbole and verbosity when I speak. I also make use of the myriad words our language offers on a regular basis. This is actually part of what makes me very successful at work as I am quite good at clarifying intent and eloquent/inspiring speech. I have had more than one man compliment me on my language and then tell me that this very capability intimidates me and they hate following me in presentation.

 

This is but one huge example of the personality traits I have that make me very successful at work and with friends (friends often feel that I am hearing them and their pain due to my ability to rephrase and reiterate) but has the opposite effect on men in general. It may inspire them to improve their performance in presentation but certainly does not inspire them to ask me out.

 

There are many more examples of this kind of thing that make me the person I am and to modify it to drastically would change my career though potentially encourage my love life. I get it.

 

I would imagine if all of us had a personal dating coach on our shoulder we would find there are many such traits that we have that are getting in the way of "love."

 

I am not unlike the quiet fellow in the corner who wishes someone would see past his shyness. I wish someone would see past my shield (words being one of them). I can keep wishing, I can accept that this makes it more difficult and lessens the pool, or I can change. The same options we all have.

[fortyninethousand322]

OP, why is it, do you think, that the struggling women and the struggling men don't end up getting together more often?

 

If a woman can't find love, wouldn't it make sense that she'd most likely find love from a man going through similar life experience? And the same for a man in such a situation. Why is it that these two groups don't end up dating?

 

I have a theory, but I'm curious as to your thoughts...

[USMCHokie]

be careful though. your eloquence with words might push away scores of guys, but it could also attract a very high quality guy. you could experiment with avoiding big words on first dates. just a thought.

 

I think it goes beyond big words...it's hard to quantify...I guess it's just a more sophisticated use of language, even the small words, that just goes by a lot of people...it makes others do this:

 

I think OP knows exactly what I'm talking about...

[Eternal Sunshine]

OP, why is it, do you think, that the struggling women and the struggling men don't end up getting together more often?

 

If a woman can't find love, wouldn't it make sense that she'd most likely find love from a man going through similar life experience? And the same for a man in such a situation. Why is it that these two groups don't end up dating?

 

I have a theory, but I'm curious as to your thoughts...

 

Eh, I tried that and the guy got such an ego boost from being with me that his confidence sky-rocketed (plus I gave him a great makeover), he was suddenly able to attract all kinds of women. He left me in the dust That's why I stay away from struggling guys now.

[PhoenixRysing]

how are you not it necessarily and is it something you can change, even a bit?

 

a failure to build relationships is very hard on people, and can bring out extreme emotions, even to people who are normally calm. you're having a tough time finding what you want and i have a lot of empathy. at the same time there's guys and one woman that i know of that i believe have passed 30 and haven't had a date, kiss, sex, nothing whatsoever, and its understandable that these guys may have a harder time showing empathy to someone who has something they desperately want and can't have.

 

I am not "it" as I stand today because I am more male in my approach than female. This does not inspire love in men. Though it is potentially something I can change, the cost of which I am weighing now. I continue to come back to the delicate balance between changing my actions and changing my core. I also wonder if I am looking to be loved as I am, would changing who I am not defeat the entire purpose? I know it isn't black and white, but their is a fine line between modifying your character and modifying your characteristics.

 

I agree that showing empathy is difficult and sympathy even more difficult. Empathy assumes we understand what the other is facing and if we have never faced an issue ourselves bridging the connection gap is a tough pill to swallow. How can we understand and appreciate the pain of something we don't comprehend? We can simply try to appreciate that pain is pain no matter the cause and that this feeling is the same for each of us. No one person's pain is more subtle or more agonizing that anothers so we can empathize with that pain even if we don't understand or experience the cause.

 

Sympathy is even more difficult, acknowledging that while we have not led the same lives, or experienced the same issues, that someone might feel pain for something you would not. For instance, that a woman would feel more pain from a meaningless sexscapade than a typical man, or that a man might feel more pain from being ignored altogether. We can empathize with the end result - the pain, but truly sympathizing with it's cause is more difficult. Where I think we struggle is that we assume we would feel less pain in the others journey and lose our empathy and our sympathy.

[USMCHokie]

OP, why is it, do you think, that the struggling women and the struggling men don't end up getting together more often?

 

Because these two groups aren't the target of the other. I believe in the top 25% theory (number is arbitrary), where all women strive for the top 25% of men and all men strive for the top 25% of women. So the bottom halves don't find each other simply because they aren't looking for each other. The bottom halves essentially do not exist for dating purposes in the minds of the other gender.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I think it goes beyond big words...it's hard to quantify...I guess it's just a more sophisticated use of language, even the small words, that just goes by a lot of people...it makes others do this:

 

I think OP knows exactly what I'm talking about...

 

It also exudes a certain air of coldness. It makes it hard to make an emotional connection.

[USMCHokie]

Eh, I tried that and the guy got such an ego boost from being with me that his confidence sky-rocketed (plus I gave him a great makeover), he was suddenly able to attract all kinds of women. He left me in the dust That's why I stay away from struggling guys now.

 

Oooh, yea, this can't be good...the "fixer-upper"...