Consolidated discussion - In dating/relationships, my gender has a much harder time

[No Limit]

Well, I guess the male mindset is that getting sex is the goal, and getting sex is very easy for women. But the female mindset rarely wants only sex I'm afraid. Of course, there are a hundred more factors in this.

[Ethan78]

We have the pick and choose do we?

 

Ethan - I am really not seeing that. Unless I resort to flopping the bossoms out (in which case I am highly unlikely to attract the right sort of man) zip, nadda , nothing. We have men snapping at us, branding us as various lovely things such as prostitutes or a loose woman simply because we smile and joke, making snide comments about our looks etc. Never mind we haven't slept with any one for years... You think that doesn't affect us as well? It hurts like hell!

 

We do not have it "easier" on the relationship front at all. I pretty much see men using and abusing women, their trust and their love every day. Its a wonder I am not a raving loony/ man bashing one (wo)man hero with a rolling pin and frying pan in hand... We are constantly objectified and looked at as "sex" objects. Be it in a good or bad way. Do not even get me started on foreplay and how it dies after 2 months...

 

You disagreed and then agreed in the one post. I said:

 

The difficulty for women who are struggling seems to be they don't have the right men to choose from. The difficulty for men who are struggling is finding women at all who are interested at all.

 

And you have pretty much said exactly that in your post. You think you will attract the wrong type of man. Or you go into the semantics that men are the manipulators, and are not considerate in bed etc.

 

I think there are many lonely men who would much rather have the "complaints" you have about the opposite sex, than to be lonely and have far less chance of meeting anyone at all. But then you can't appreciate how depressing that can be because you have never experienced having zero options.

 

When it comes to insults, looks and body types, again you read my post and missed the point. Women who snap at guys in bars are doing it because those guys are not good looking enough. They are doing exactly what you say men do. Getting angry or insulting the opposite sex because they are not upto your standards is a two way street.

 

Women do want sex. I know good looking guys who are going to bed with numerous attractive women. Why do you people want to make the ridiculous point that men are sexual manipulators while desexualising women? Is this 2015 or 1915?

 

It is strange how women boast about their social intuition and then claim men are great manipulators. As I said in another thread it is not my responsibility if a woman chooses the guy who is bad in bed, or an inconsiderate person etc. Those women also reject guys who don't impress them or are not "confident" enough so it is a choice.

 

I have had women laughing at my body type as I am tall and on the slim side. You only need to read Loveshack to see that the female ego does not see this body type as desirable. The same kind of women are willing to make nasty comments in person, laugh in public etc.

 

Your post seems to go down the road of "men are mean, and women are victims" but this clearly isn't true.

[lollipopspot]

I think there are many lonely men who would much rather have the "complaints" you have about the opposite sex, than to be lonely and have far less chance of meeting anyone at all. But then you can't appreciate how depressing that can be because you have never experienced having zero options.

 

Very, very few men, if any, have zero options. Dig a little deeper, and it's just that they don't like the easy options they have, i.e. women they deem below them or in some way incompatible with them. Those men with "no options" are aiming higher than their own status easily allows (not impossible, but they have to bring something more to the table).

 

The guy here who complained for a very long time about never getting dates revealed that he had recently turned down an interested young woman whose face he didn't find pretty enough. He was only willing to accept women at least decade younger, with pretty faces and bodies. Yet he was nearly suicidal because he had "no options." Untrue.

Edited March 2, 2015 by lollipopspot

[StanMusial]

Please explain how women have it easier to me as I just don't get it...

 

Women Own 1% of the World's Property -- Occupy That*|*Soraya Chemaly

 

'Women Own 1% of World Property': A Feminist Myth That Won't Die - The Atlantic

 

New Facts on the Gender Gap from the World Bank - Real Time Economics - WSJ

 

https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2011/09/26/getting-beyond-1/

 

Understanding the Increasing Affluence of Women

 

Just some random articles.

 

Most say that women have it tougher but if you look at the last you will see that women are working their asses off to get more.

 

On dating websites we are supposed to be hounded and be able to take our pick - what a load of poo.

 

We still earn less than men per hour.

 

We are still discriminated against because we are the ones who carry children.

 

Not sure why you are linking articles related to wealth and income to prove women have it worse in dating/relationships. If I were female I would be more worried that there's just not enough men to go around, and that the ones I liked were not available.

 

Also, I don't understand the discrimination based on childbearing comment.

[lollipopspot]

It seems that women in the exact same boat are being asked to be grateful where men are not. Even if her "options" consist of homeless/jobless/much older/abusers/users/drunks - hey, she has "options." Well, so do men, who may not like the options they have either (but at least their options are not going to rape them, be glad for that).

[Toodaloo]

Also, I don't understand the discrimination based on childbearing comment.

 

From the age of 25 I have been refused work on the grounds that I would go and get pregnant and be unproductive. In many ways I can understand this.

 

I "work" with a girl who in the past 3 years has only actually been in the office working for 3 months as the rest of the time she has been on maternity leave... it has cost this small company an absolute fortune.

 

I started this as there seems to still be the few chaps on here that seem to think that if you have breasts everything is provided for you in terms of money, work, shelter and yes relationships too. I am tired of it as quite the opposite is true!

 

Both men and women struggle and face obstacles to gaining what they want in life. There are no short cuts and none of it is at all easy regardless of your gender.

 

Ethan I think you missed my point. The women who snap at men in bars are the same as the men who snap at women in bars... unpleasant people, again regardless of gender you will always get people who are rude, obnoxious or selfish just as you will get people who are quite the opposite.

 

So the difficulty for both men and women is that they do not have ample of the right type of people to choose from. Not just women...

 

While sex is great for both genders I am pretty sure that a loving relationship would top the tables... Perhaps the foreplay would continue to exist in those too...

[Toodaloo]

Well, I guess the male mindset is that getting sex is the goal, and getting sex is very easy for women. But the female mindset rarely wants only sex I'm afraid. Of course, there are a hundred more factors in this.

 

Sex with what?

 

Currently the only men interested in me for sex are my stalker who wants to rape me and a chap who comes across as Owen from the Vicar of Dibley...

 

Even if I did want a one night stand or casual sex my options are limited to the extreme...!

[autumnnight]

Here is what I think it boils down to:

 

According to many people, a woman can walk into a bar full of men and women drinking and have more men notice her or hit on her than the other way around. Since statistically there are more men than women on dating sites, a woman will get more messages than a man.

 

It is strictly numbers. It shouldn't matter, apparently, what the type or quality of these men are. Just the mere fact that in many place women have more raw numbers, we have it easier. Because we all know it is easier to have more creeps after you than less.

 

I do get it. Traditionally, men are the ones who approach, so men DO typically put themselves overtly out there first. This naturally means they probably experience more "no"'s. It is also true that we do have a growing number of women who want to prove their...equality? by making it tough on a man on purpose or having wildly unrealistic expectations. And then you can't forget the women who will bite off a man's head for opening the door or have mace at the ready 24/7 since apparent;y most people with male genetalia are just waiting to be rapists.

 

If a man lives in a region of the country where that type of woman is very common, then I can understand why he feels skittish and frustrated. Fortunately, us backward women down here still appreciate a gentleman and don't assume they're all out to get into our pants by force

 

See, THIS is why I don't post about women as much as I post about men. Because a bad woman will rile me up 10X as much as a bad man.

 

I don't think women have it easier in life worldwide. I do think that if you take just raw numbers in dating in a certain age range, there are more men approaching women than women approaching men. And apparently that automatically translates into easier.

[Ethan78]

Very, very few men, if any, have zero options. Dig a little deeper, and it's just that they don't like the easy options they have, i.e. women they deem below them or in some way incompatible with them. Those men with "no options" are aiming higher than their own status easily allows (not impossible, but they have to bring something more to the table).

 

The guy here who complained for a very long time about never getting dates revealed that he had recently turned down an interested young woman whose face he didn't find pretty enough. He was only willing to accept women at least decade younger, with pretty faces and bodies. Yet he was nearly suicidal because he had "no options." Untrue.

 

You base everything you say on speculation and a guy on Loveshack.

 

You conveniently miss the fact that men need to portray a desirable and confident persona regardless of what they look like physically. Women are not dismissed as creepy or weird because they lack confidence but men are.

 

I believe men who have self-esteem issues and are physically unattractive have zero options, and no I am not including dating homeless people or those who live in the sewer. For you to pretend otherwise is just a game of victimhood. As you can see from other posts women love to be the victims while attributing the bad attitudes to men. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are bad people of both sexes.

 

Women want looks, confidence, status and the rest of it. At best men want looks, and even those who don't will still be judged on status and whether they have enough confidence etc. I have been there.

[autumnnight]

men need to portray a desirable and confident persona regardless of what they look like physically

 

I'm going to adjust this: men need to BE confident persona regardless of what they look like physically

 

The whole idea of adopting a persona is part of a lot of men's problems. They are reading books and taking classes to figure out how to fake their way into a woman's bed.

 

They need to decide what they want, physical release with a "pretty enough" woman...or a real relationship?

[elaine567]

Anyone male or female who disrespects another over some perceived attractiveness scale is a nasty piece of work full stop and very immature to boot.

 

The scale is a bit arbitrary anyway. It seems to me that most who feel they are neither super hot or super ugly, ie average seem to grade themselves a 7, which makes no sense to me.

Surely in a scale of 1-10 then anyone average should be a 5, no?

With a 4 being below average and a 6 being above average.

[Toodaloo]

You conveniently miss the fact that men need to portray a desirable and confident persona regardless of what they look like physically. Women are not dismissed as creepy or weird because they lack confidence but men are.

 

Actually they are not even noticed to BE dismissed!

[Ethan78]

I do get it. Traditionally, men are the ones who approach, so men DO typically put themselves overtly out there first. This naturally means they probably experience more "no"'s. It is also true that we do have a growing number of women who want to prove their...equality? by making it tough on a man on purpose or having wildly unrealistic expectations. And then you can't forget the women who will bite off a man's head for opening the door or have mace at the ready 24/7 since apparent;y most people with male genetalia are just waiting to be rapists.

 

I'm surprised you know about the opening the door thing. I hold the door for whoever is behind me be that an obese man or good looking woman, yet the women will sometimes roll their eyes, act like I am not there etc.

 

I don't think anyone can be accused of unrealistic expectations. If a woman is holding out for her idea of prince charming then good for her, just don't get angry with me for introducing myself in a social place. Tell me you are not interested or even ignore me, but being really rude is something different.

[PinkInTheLimo]

Please explain how women have it easier to me as I just don't get it...

 

Women Own 1% of the World's Property -- Occupy That*|*Soraya Chemaly

 

'Women Own 1% of World Property': A Feminist Myth That Won't Die - The Atlantic

 

New Facts on the Gender Gap from the World Bank - Real Time Economics - WSJ

 

https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2011/09/26/getting-beyond-1/

 

Understanding the Increasing Affluence of Women

 

Just some random articles.

 

Most say that women have it tougher but if you look at the last you will see that women are working their asses off to get more.

 

On dating websites we are supposed to be hounded and be able to take our pick - what a load of poo.

 

We still earn less than men per hour.

 

We are still discriminated against because we are the ones who carry children.

 

I would like to add the blatant discrimination when it comes to our age. Women are constantly bombarded with the message that once they hit 40, 45, 50 they are worthless because they have lost the only asset that really seems to matter to men: their youth. We get told that "our shelf life is limited". What a horrible thing to say.

We can be intelligent, have a good career, have created a stable financial situation, have a great sense of humour, be very dynamic.

 

But it does not mean a thing because we are not young any more. How dare we?

 

It's not a message that I ever will internalise myself because as far as I am concerned I get better with age. But I find it scandalous that there is outrage when certain characteristics are attributed to people on the basis of their race but none when it's done on the basis of the combination gender + age.

Serial womaniser George Clooney is considered to be in his prime at almost 54. A woman his age gets the message that it's only downhill from now on.

[William]

Since it appears Robert closed an essentially similar, and contentious, thread yesterday, I merged this newest iteration, which we generally don't allow, into our consolidated thread on the topic of which gender has it harder in dating and relationships. The rules of interaction still apply. Discussing the subject within our guidelines is appropriate. Discussing other members, named or unnamed, is not. Please keep comments confined to this thread and this topic. Thanks!

[Toodaloo]

Since it appears Robert closed an essentially similar, and contentious, thread yesterday, I merged this newest iteration, which we generally don't allow, into our consolidated thread on the topic of which gender has it harder in dating and relationships. The rules of interaction still apply. Discussing the subject within our guidelines is appropriate. Discussing other members, named or unnamed, is not. Please keep comments confined to this thread and this topic. Thanks!

 

Thanks William...

 

I am just ranting as there are a few who seem to think the one sex has it easier than the other... personally I can't see it but its just reoccurring ALL the time. I have read several today that say women have it easier...

[autumnnight]

I'm surprised you know about the opening the door thing. I hold the door for whoever is behind me be that an obese man or good looking woman, yet the women will sometimes roll their eyes, act like I am not there etc.

 

I don't think anyone can be accused of unrealistic expectations. If a woman is holding out for her idea of prince charming then good for her, just don't get angry with me for introducing myself in a social place. Tell me you are not interested or even ignore me, but being really rude is something different.

 

The following IS something I have seen a lot of women do, and if I was a man, I'd find it infuriating:

 

They have the "anything you can do" chip on their shoulder, so any time a man's behavior hints of strength or authority or decisiveness, they smack it down to make sure they "keep that playing field level." They basically expect their man to become a woman. And then, when he does, when they have punished any decisiveness out of him, when they have taken the reins to prove they can....they lose respect for him, get resentful, start telling him to "be a man," and either leave him or cheat.

 

THAT kind of woman...well, I'm glad I'm not a man. I'd be in jail.

[hotpotato]

I would like to add the blatant discrimination when it comes to our age. Women are constantly bombarded with the message that once they hit 40, 45, 50 they are worthless because they have lost the only asset that really seems to matter to men: their youth. We get told that "our shelf life is limited". What a horrible thing to say.

We can be intelligent, have a good career, have created a stable financial situation, have a great sense of humour, be very dynamic.

 

But it does not mean a thing because we are not young any more. How dare we?

 

It's not a message that I ever will internalise myself because as far as I am concerned I get better with age. But I find it scandalous that there is outrage when certain characteristics are attributed to people on the basis of their race but none when it's done on the basis of the combination gender + age.

Serial womaniser George Clooney is considered to be in his prime at almost 54. A woman his age gets the message that it's only downhill from now on.

 

Hell, on ls women become worthless at 30, 35, and men never become unsexy. Yet women have it so easy. I've had men on here become very angry because I said that middle age men and grandpas generally are not sexy to hot young thangs.

[hotpotato]

Well, I guess the male mindset is that getting sex is the goal, and getting sex is very easy for women. But the female mindset rarely wants only sex I'm afraid. Of course, there are a hundred more factors in this.

 

Bingo. I'm willing to bet many of the men who think women have it easy thing sex is the pinnacle of life.

 

I get old being seen as a means to an end, no matter how wonderful some guys believe it is. Having people lie to you, not care anything about you, and only want your body gets old.

[Shining One]

Very, very few men, if any, have zero options. Dig a little deeper, and it's just that they don't like the easy options they have, i.e. women they deem below them or in some way incompatible with them. Those men with "no options" are aiming higher than their own status easily allows (not impossible, but they have to bring something more to the table).

From 18 through 26, I had no options. I was rejected by over a hundred women (several hundred if you count OLD). I didn't reject any women in this time because none approached me. I'd like to hear from women who went through a similar experience. I have yet to meet any.

I do think that if you take just raw numbers in dating in a certain age range, there are more men approaching women than women approaching men. And apparently that automatically translates into easier.

Higher numbers does make it easier in the sense that it provides a greater chance to find a match. It also allows women the option to be passive or active. Men (generally speaking) only have the option of being active.

 

Let's assume that both a man and a woman are looking for a long term relationship. The first step in a long term relationship is a first date. The woman is much more likely (generally speaking) to get more first date options than the man. Wouldn't this automatically translate to a higher chance of success?

[autumnnight]

From 18 through 26, I had no options. I was rejected by over a hundred women (several hundred if you count OLD). I didn't reject any women in this time because none approached me. I'd like to hear from women who went through a similar experience. I have yet to meet any.Higher numbers does make it easier in the sense that it provides a greater chance to find a match. It also allows women the option to be passive or active. Men (generally speaking) only have the option of being active.

 

Let's assume that both a man and a woman are looking for a long term relationship. The first step in a long term relationship is a first date. The woman is much more likely (generally speaking) to get more first date options than the man. Wouldn't this automatically translate to a higher chance of success?

 

See, THIS is a logical investigation of statistics. Yes, women do get asked on a first date WAY more than men. This doesn't necessarily mean any of those men are someone the woman would actually want to go out with. However, they are getting asked more.

 

I think it depends on how you view statistical success. Is having 1 out of 15 attempted dates, when all 15 are someone in whom you were interested more or less successful than having 1 out of 10 out of 150 dates when 99 of those people you wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole?

 

I think women have it easier when it comes to raw numbers. I think women may have it tougher when it comes to being wanted for themselves, desired for who they are and not which notch they are. BUT that is only when the people they are going out with are focused on the numbers game. A man who is focused on the woman rather than the numbers is probably going to make that woman happier because he actually cares about her.

[Toodaloo]

From 18 through 26, I had no options. I was rejected by over a hundred women (several hundred if you count OLD). I didn't reject any women in this time because none approached me. I'd like to hear from women who went through a similar experience. I have yet to meet any.Higher numbers does make it easier in the sense that it provides a greater chance to find a match. It also allows women the option to be passive or active. Men (generally speaking) only have the option of being active.

 

Let's assume that both a man and a woman are looking for a long term relationship. The first step in a long term relationship is a first date. The woman is much more likely (generally speaking) to get more first date options than the man. Wouldn't this automatically translate to a higher chance of success?

 

Really?

 

My best friend when I was teenager/ early 20's didn't have any guys at all aproach her. She tried on numberous occasions and was treated horribly. She didn't give up on men but did give up on me when she married one at 25! Just 3 months after starting to date him and less than 6 months after her first kiss.

 

Of course a higher number of first dates would give higher chances of finding the "one". But where is the evidence that that is actually happening with women???

 

How can you say a woman will have more first date options than men? You do not know this. I know many wonderful women who haven't been asked out by anyone for years despite trying OLD and going speed dating etc. They are not bad looking. They are not obviously mad... so where are their options?

 

I know of at least 6 men in their prime (between mid twenties and mid fifties) who do not go out and seek female companionship and have decided to be bachelors. They are asked out regularly and also rebuff regularly. I don't know any women who have decided that and actively refuse dates the way they do.

[insert_name]

From 18 through 26, I had no options. I was rejected by over a hundred women (several hundred if you count OLD). I didn't reject any women in this time because none approached me. I'd like to hear from women who went through a similar experience. I have yet to meet any.Higher numbers does make it easier in the sense that it provides a greater chance to find a match. It also allows women the option to be passive or active. Men (generally speaking) only have the option of being active.

 

Let's assume that both a man and a woman are looking for a long term relationship. The first step in a long term relationship is a first date. The woman is much more likely (generally speaking) to get more first date options than the man. Wouldn't this automatically translate to a higher chance of success?

 

Exactly, I know the whole argument is the equivalent of winning a tallest dwarf competition but if you gave me the option of being hit on by 50-100 potential sleazebags over the course of my life where there could still be the odd diamond in that number (whilst still having the option of hitting on others myself to boost numbers) vs. never being hit on at all in my lifetime and having to engineer every relationship myself through trial and error its an absolute no brainer that you would choose the first option.

 

If nothing else I am sure that there must be an ego boost of sorts associated with being hit on by men no matter what your appraisal of their character. At the very least you know you are visible. A man who gets no attention from women at all could be forgiven for thinking that he doesnt even exist as a sexual entity. Then he has to chase his tail hitting on women, being knocked back whilst being told "don't let it affect your confidence". This is so much easier said than done! If you do lose heart then you are even worse off as a woman will not touch a man who has no cconfidence. So for some men it can become a vicious downward spiral- the harder you try the more your returns diminish until you hit your 30s and any chance you had disappears because no woman is going to touch a guy who has spent the best part of his life being rejected.

 

Do women even get the loss of confidence that men get when they have no proof of their attractiveness to the opposite sex? Take it from me: it kills. Especially as you knoe that the more confidence you lose the less attractive you get. I dont think this particular vicious cycle applies to women.

[lollipopspot]

If nothing else I am sure that there must be an ego boost of sorts associated with being hit on by men no matter what your appraisal of their character. At the very least you know you are visible. A man who gets no attention from women at all could be forgiven for thinking that he doesnt even exist as a sexual entity...

 

Do women even get the loss of confidence that men get when they have no proof of their attractiveness to the opposite sex? Take it from me: it kills. Especially as you knoe that the more confidence you lose the less attractive you get. I dont think this particular vicious cycle applies to women.

 

Well you're wrong. There are outliers and social "losers" (for lack of a better word) of both genders. There are men losers, and there are women too. You didn't notice them because they are "invisible" to you as a man, but they're your counterpart. They're the women you think of as too ugly or undesirable or weird to date, they're not on your radar - you didn't see them as options, but they were there. Everyone has standards.

 

I actually think that because rape is so prevalent that this idea continues that women have so many options and are so desired. The fact that because some men are willing to take a woman by force and women must always guard against it - and note, women in their 80s and older, handicapped women, homeless women, etc. get raped - the idea extends that men who aren't violent and abusive must also be interested in any woman too.

[Shining One]

I think it depends on how you view statistical success. Is having 1 out of 15 attempted dates, when all 15 are someone in whom you were interested more or less successful than having 1 out of 10 out of 150 dates when 99 of those people you wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole?

In your example, I would consider both successful since they each got "one", which is the goal. However, I would love to have a 1/15 success ratio. I think both men and women have a tendency to overestimate the success ratio of the opposite sex.

I think women may have it tougher when it comes to being wanted for themselves, desired for who they are and not which notch they are.

I concur. Not many men have to deal with this issue.

Of course a higher number of first dates would give higher chances of finding the "one". But where is the evidence that that is actually happening with women???

 

How can you say a woman will have more first date options than men? You do not know this. I know many wonderful women who haven't been asked out by anyone for years despite trying OLD and going speed dating etc. They are not bad looking. They are not obviously mad... so where are their options?

I'm going based on the observations of my friends and women around me. If I go to the bathroom at a bar, there's a guy talking to my girlfriend when I get back. Many of my female friends drag me to clubs so I can keep the guys off them... which doesn't always work. I have seen the Match mailboxes of quite a few of my female friends.

 

I don't doubt that you're seeing different results from me. Does your area have a skewed male/female ratio? There can be any number of causes. I know I'm an anomaly myself. Perhaps you and your friends are anomalies too.