People use term "Christian" to get reputation perks

[Mme. Chaucer]

Do I brag? Or do I merely respond to criticism after quoting or explaining Scripture?

 

You start threads like this one, responding to no one, touting your own understanding and putting down others.

 

Seriously, it's possible to speak your truths without all the pomposity and denigration of conflicting POV's - even if you believe that your truth is the ONY truth. Others believe that about theirs with exactly as much conviction and "proof" as you have, also.

 

And even if I were bragging...

 

This is what the Lord says: “Let not the wise boast of their wisdom or the strong boast of their strength or the rich boast of their riches, but let the one who boasts boast about this: that they have the understanding to know me, that I am the Lord, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight,” declares the Lord. (Jeremiah 9:23, 24 NIV)

 

OK. Where is the part that says that a person who boasts that they have more understanding than anyone else delights the lord?

 

If you just spoke of your own personal journey, epiphanies and experiences (with how they manifest in your own life, not just preaching from a high place that you've assigned to yourself), I would view your holding forth with a different eye. But you never do that.

 

I do not disagree that much negative is done under the banner of "Christianity;" however, I view you as a member of that camp yourself.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Disciple just means "student", Carrie. It's literally the Latin word for student with the nominative suffix chopped off and an E tagged on the end. He's not necessarily being grandiose here.

 

You know very well that he's likening himself to the disciples of Christ, Paul in particular.

 

He's not coming at this issue from the perspective of a humble seeker of knowledge! Au contraire!

[M30USA]

Mme.chaucer, you can see me however you want. I just challenge you to focus on Scripture and not on me, though.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Mme.chaucer, you can see me however you want. I just challenge you to focus on Scripture and not on me, though.

 

This thread is not about scripture! I am focussing on the topic of this thread. Which is YOUR OPINION.

[M30USA]

You know very well that he's likening himself to the disciples of Christ, Paul in particular.

 

He's not coming at this issue from the perspective of a humble seeker of knowledge! Au contraire!

 

Name one person who teaches Scripture conservatively/literally that you believe is a humble seeker of knowledge.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Name one person who teaches Scripture conservatively/literally that you believe is a humble seeker of knowledge.

 

Why would I in the context of this discussion? A "student" is a humble seeker of knowledge, or should be. And I am oh, so very aware that you are not that, and did not liken yourself to a disciple with that definition of the word "disciple" in mind.

 

Anyway, you aren't a "teacher of Scripture." Except self proclaimed, here on LoveShack.

 

Any one of the rest of us is exactly as qualified to pick up the Bible, read it, and then proceed to school the world on it as you are.

 

You feel free to conjecture about scripture in not literal ways all day long Like "fiery chariots" are UFO's for example, rather than literally CHARIOTS that are fiery. Or that Jesus was "teleporting." NOT literal, dude. So, even if the mantle you've decided you're qualified to wear is that of "teacher," it's certainly not that of "LITERAL" scripture. Much less conservative!

[M30USA]

Why would I in the context of this discussion? A "student" is a humble seeker of knowledge, or should be. And I am oh, so very aware that you are not that, and did not liken yourself to a disciple with that definition of the word "disciple" in mind.

 

Anyway, you aren't a "teacher of Scripture." Except self proclaimed, here on LoveShack.

 

Any one of the rest of us is exactly as qualified to pick up the Bible, read it, and then proceed to school the world on it as you are.

 

You feel free to conjecture about scripture in not literal ways all day long Like "fiery chariots" are UFO's for example, rather than literally CHARIOTS that are fiery. Or that Jesus was "teleporting." NOT literal, dude. So, even if the mantle you've decided you're qualified to wear is that of "teacher," it's certainly not that of "LITERAL" scripture. Much less conservative!

 

What makes a person qualified to be a teacher of Scripture?

 

(And please answer my prior question about who, in your opinion, is a humble seeker of wisdom and also views Scripture literally and conservatively?)

 

And for the record I have yet to make any ad hominen comments, while I've received several myself.

Edited May 28, 2013 by M30USA

[M30USA]

By definition, fiery chariots are UFOs. They are unidentified flying objects. Unless you can identify exactly what they were (I can't), they are classified as UFOs. Perhaps you have an incorrect definition of UFO?

[Mme. Chaucer]

What makes a person qualified to be a teacher of Scripture?

 

They are if they say they are, on the Internet. Like you, for example. At least I qualified my position by saying that the person should have read the bible and believe that they have understood it. But, really, that's not even necessary. On the Internet.

 

(And please answer my prior question about who, in your opinion, is a humble seeker of wisdom and also views Scripture literally and conservatively?)

My mother in law, and my deceased father in law, and my husband? For starters.

 

Seriously, that is a very weird question. Many, many true believers of the bible in a strictly conservative and literal sense believe fully that they must approach the teachings of Jesus from a "teachable" place - one of humility. Are you truly not aware of that?

 

And for the record I have yet to make any ad hominen comments, while I've received several myself.

 

Dude, whenever somebody sets themselves up as The World's Greatest Unassailable Expert on ANYTHING, let alone something as far reaching as spiritual life, they're asking for it.

 

And you are the one - pretty much the only one - here who does that.

 

I Corinthians 3:18:

Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

 

I think that is not exclusive of YOU.

[Mme. Chaucer]

By definition, fiery chariots are UFOs. They are unidentified flying objects. Unless you can identify exactly what they were (I can't), they are classified as UFOs. Perhaps you have an incorrect definition of UFO?

 

What do you mean, "classified" as UFO's. If the Bible wanted to call them UFO's it would say "UFO" instead of "fiery chariot."

 

They are NOT "unidentified." They are identified. As CHARIOTS.

 

If Jesus can raise the dead, etc., then flaming chariots can descend from the heavens. Literally.

[M30USA]

1 Corinthians 3:18 is specifically in reference to what Paul frequently refers to as "the wisdom of the world". This means wisdom apart from God and based on man's knowledge without the aid of the Holy Spirit. It's not speaking about the knowledge of God which the Bible actually encourages us to speak boldly and also to "test" all things by. Paul even told us to "take all thoughts captive" and judge all doctrine by the Word.

[Mme. Chaucer]

What do you mean, "classified" as UFO's. If the Bible wanted to call them UFO's it would say "UFO" instead of "fiery chariot."

 

They are NOT "unidentified." They are identified. As CHARIOTS.

 

If Jesus can raise the dead, etc., then flaming chariots can descend from the heavens. Literally.

 

Well … ?

 

Your insistence on literalism only goes as far as what suits you personally, right?

 

Anyway, why have you brought up fundamentalist biblical study in this thread of yours? Your only reference to scripture in your OP was to report that Jesus said that true believers would be hated.

 

But Jesus himself was beloved by many. And, loved people.

 

And: John 13:35

 

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.

 

So, if the self - identified "Christians" whom you are denigrating in your OP actually love one another, who are you to report that they are not Christians? Or, more accurately, that they ARE "Christians" but now the term "Christians" is a nasty word and unworthy of respect?

 

And, now that you've determined that the term "Christians" should NOT be respected and should be hated - what would you like yourself and your ilk to be called?

 

You know - God does not WANT the world to "hate" people who believe in the tenants of Christianity as they were originally set forth. Really. So why are you insisting on looking for and finding hatefulness as the true and ONLY "proof" of a true Christian?

 

Not good thinking, dude.

 

I'm certainly not defending a great majority of self - identified "Christians" who justify many bad things under that banner - but I don't see you as different, either.

[M30USA]

The paradox that you pointed out in my reasoning is also found in the Bible. Yes, Jesus loved people and had many followers, yet he was still largely hated and ultimately killed. Why?

 

I think we need to make a distinction between what Scrupture refers to as "the world" and then individual people. The former, according to Scripture, operates under the system of Satan and hates the truth; the latter can choose to be "of the world" or to follow the truth of Christ. What is implicit is that the two are exclusive. If you are a follower of Christ, you cannot conform to a the world since it is fallen and passing away (1 John 2:15).

Edited May 28, 2013 by M30USA

[Mme. Chaucer]

The paradox that you pointed out in my reasoning is also found in the Bible. Yes, Jesus loved people and had many followers, yet he was still largely hated and ultimately killed. Why? Scripture says, regarding Christ, "they hated me without reason".

 

Yes. But you can't ignore the love part just to promote your premise that the modern "Christians" are loathsome satanic scumbags. It just does not work. Bad, bad arguing.

 

I think we need to make a distinction between what Scrupture refers to as "the world" and then individual people. The former, according to Scripture, operates under the system of Satan and hates the truth; the latter can choose to be "of the world" or to follow the truth of Christ. What is implicit is that the two are exclusive. If you are a follower of Christ, you cannot conform to a the world since it is fallen and passing away (1 John 2:15).

 

OK. I can make that distinction easily. That does not mean that I'm taking YOUR word, random Internet World's Greatest Expert Guy, about what is "of the world" and what is the "truth."

 

What if I, not a Christian in either your definition or any other, "hate" the hypocritical self righteous self - proclaimed followers of Jesus and what they're spreading? But I "love" Christ-like people?

 

Since I'm not a believer like you are, I must be of Satan, right? So if I hate that stuff, then it's got to be bona fide Christianity, right? And if I love people and behavior that is Christ like, it's doomed to be evil? According to you.

 

Does not compute.

 

If you really want to be a "teacher of Scripture" you really should learn how to present your ideas in a way that folks who are not exactly of the same mind as you are already might want to give them serious consideration. You know - the people who are in need of teaching and who still have stuff to learn (unlike yourself!) "Preaching to the choir" is of no use whatsoever.

 

That is sincere advice.

[M30USA]

Thanks for the sincere advice, but I've never made the claim--as you say--that I am the world's greatest expert. Where are you getting this from?

 

I have seen something sad:

 

In response to criticism (like yours) saying that Christians shouldn't claim to know the truth, etc, many Christians have become theologically castrated and fearful to offend anyone. And thus people continue to live without the light of the truth and accept this bubble-gum, feel-good nonsense about the Bible which is fine if you want to believe that but it's not Scriptural.

 

Did you know that when Christ returns, his truth and glory will be so blinding that nobody will be able to look at him? So I ask you: if we cannot accept even the truth as made known to man and understandable in his terms, how will we expect to withstand and not be blinded by the full truth and glory of Christ at his return?

[M30USA]

I'm anti religion. The bible is more full of crap than sewers.

 

The modern consensus of what people THINK the Bible says (often not having read it) is full of crap.

[todreaminblue]

I've seen it all too much. It's now popular for someone to call themselves "Christian" because they know it will bestow upon them the trust and good respect of others--for business purposes or to save face.

 

What is ironic is that Christ warned that his true disciples will be HATED by the world.

 

So I'm puzzled by 2 things:

 

1) Why would someone actually manipulate people by calling themselves a "Christian"?

 

2) Why has this term come to be RESPECTED by a god-hating world?

 

Something fishy is going on? Do you smell it?

 

 

Horrible things have been done in the name of christianity.....abuse is one.....

 

 

christianity or being a christian is simply a word a name a title....to hold a true belief in christ........is different....if you follow the principles of christianity and hold jesus close to your heart and try to follow what and how he lived....then you are a true christian.....a believer in christ the saviour....there is falseness...in all walks of life...christian and non christian.......people in general....good or bad.......beliefs good or bad....the only difference you can make in the world.....is to be true to what you believe in.....that means living it.......not just stating it....it doesnt matter if people do or dont respect what you believe in...it only matters that you do respect what you believe in and hold respect to allow others to make their own choices......we can only be held accountable for what we do in life....what not others do............deb

[wuggle]

I've read it a couple of times and must agree, basically it is ...

[M30USA]

Horrible things have been done in the name of christianity.....abuse is one.....

 

 

christianity or being a christian is simply a word a name a title....to hold a true belief in christ........is different....if you follow the principles of christianity and hold jesus close to your heart and try to follow what and how he lived....then you are a true christian.....a believer in christ the saviour....there is falseness...in all walks of life...christian and non christian.......people in general....good or bad.......beliefs good or bad....the only difference you can make in the world.....is to be true to what you believe in.....that means living it.......not just stating it....it doesnt matter if people do or dont respect what you believe in...it only matters that you do respect what you believe in and hold respect to allow others to make their own choices......we can only be held accountable for what we do in life....what not others do............deb

 

I agree with you 75%.

 

Jesus himself said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven."

 

However, with that being said, this does NOT mean that the ONLY thing that matters is "doing good deeds". The Bible clearly states that "all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" in the sight of God. Only those acts which are done BY FAITH and BY THE SPIRIT are considered righteous in God's eyes. There is even a verse which says that anything NOT done in faith is sin. Another verse tells us that God CANNOT be pleased in the flesh, but only in the spirit.

 

So, yes, God will ultimately only allow us into Heaven if we do the will of the Father. However, we can only do the Father's will if we are born again by the Spirit and are living in faith, not living in the flesh or based on our own understanding.

 

This is a very complex subject and I could go on for hours, but I'll stop here unless anyone has questions for me. Feel free to PM if so.

[pureinheart]

Horrible things have been done in the name of christianity.....abuse is one.....

 

 

christianity or being a christian is simply a word a name a title....to hold a true belief in christ........is different....if you follow the principles of christianity and hold jesus close to your heart and try to follow what and how he lived....then you are a true christian.....a believer in christ the saviour....there is falseness...in all walks of life...christian and non christian.......people in general....good or bad.......beliefs good or bad....the only difference you can make in the world.....is to be true to what you believe in.....that means living it.......not just stating it....it doesnt matter if people do or dont respect what you believe in...it only matters that you do respect what you believe in and hold respect to allow others to make their own choices......we can only be held accountable for what we do in life....what not others do............deb

 

Amen Deb:love:

[todreaminblue]

I agree with you 75%.

 

Jesus himself said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven."

 

However, with that being said, this does NOT mean that the ONLY thing that matters is "doing good deeds". The Bible clearly states that "all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" in the sight of God. Only those acts which are done BY FAITH and BY THE SPIRIT are considered righteous in God's eyes. There is even a verse which says that anything NOT done in faith is sin. Another verse tells us that God CANNOT be pleased in the flesh, but only in the spirit.

 

So, yes, God will ultimately only allow us into Heaven if we do the will of the Father. However, we can only do the Father's will if we are born again by the Spirit and are living in faith, not living in the flesh or based on our own understanding.

 

This is a very complex subject and I could go on for hours, but I'll stop here unless anyone has questions for me. Feel free to PM if so.

 

 

I dotn think it was meant to be complex........nothing about jesus was complex ...he used everyday situations places things people to teach the gospel........the heart is not complex....the holy spirit is not complex.......doing righteous acts is not complex......it either comes naturally or it doesnt come naturally........i think confounding something simple.....or what happens naturally ...is what makes something so right....difficult to understand...

 

 

 

 

i am a simple person.....i like simply.....truth.....and what my heart tells me is true........is always true........

 

 

because that is where the holy spirit resides......in everyones heart ...whether people realize it ....accept it or not....the heart is god's domain.....good people are simply ....good....did not someone say......you may not believe in god.....but god believes in you...dotn know if that is biblical....but it i ssoemthign i believe in ...cant remember where i read it.......and god will judge peoples acts righteous or not......no person can..i find comfort in knowing i will be judged by the fairest judge of all who knows my heart inside and out.a god who believes in me.......i enjoy the scriptures you post m3ousa whether we differ on opinion or not i respect you...i respect your faith and knowledge of scriptures....scriptures to me are always grace full....i will continue to do what i do best......and trust my heart to lead me right...i found my faith...my heart is peaceful there....((((((hugs)))))))).....deb

[M30USA]

I dotn think it was meant to be complex........nothing about jesus was complex ...he used everyday situations places things people to teach the gospel........the heart is not complex....the holy spirit is not complex.......doing righteous acts is not complex......it either comes naturally or it doesnt come naturally........i think confounding something simple.....or what happens naturally ...is what makes something so right....difficult to understand...

 

 

 

 

i am a simple person.....i like simply.....truth.....and what my heart tells me is true........is always true........

 

 

because that is where the holy spirit resides......in everyones heart ...whether people realize it ....accept it or not....the heart is god's domain.....good people are simply ....good....did not someone say......you may not believe in god.....but god believes in you...dotn know if that is biblical....but it i ssoemthign i believe in ...cant remember where i read it.......and god will judge peoples acts righteous or not......no person can..i find comfort in knowing i will be judged by the fairest judge of all who knows my heart inside and out.a god who believes in me.......i enjoy the scriptures you post m3ousa whether we differ on opinion or not i respect you...i respect your faith and knowledge of scriptures....scriptures to me are always grace full....i will continue to do what i do best......and trust my heart to lead me right...i found my faith...my heart is peaceful there....((((((hugs)))))))).....deb

 

One word:

 

Parables.

 

The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them..." (Matthew 13:10-11)

 

Spiritual truths are simple in that a child can understand them, yet they are a mystery and unable to be comprehended by those to whom God has not revealed them to.

Edited May 29, 2013 by M30USA

[TheFinalWord]

I've seen it all too much. It's now popular for someone to call themselves "Christian" because they know it will bestow upon them the trust and good respect of others--for business purposes or to save face.

 

Really? I've never encountered someone that lets their guard down just for claiming they are a Christian. Sign me up! lol

 

What is ironic is that Christ warned that his true disciples will be HATED by the world.

 

Yeah, but I believe there is an important caveat to that:

If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

 

So I'm puzzled by 2 things:

 

1) Why would someone actually manipulate people by calling themselves a "Christian"?

 

Well, unfortunately, that has been going on since Christ. Christ warned and gave some litmus tests.

 

1) Beware of false prophets. You can identify false prophets by their fruits. It's the same test Christ gave. When they wanted to stone him, he repeatedly said if I am doing the works my father gave me to do, why do you want to stone me?

 

One of the reasons the law was given was so that it would be easy to recognize the Messiah and discount false Messiahs. One of the reason John gave a method for testing spirits is to discount leaders that deny Christ.

 

In regards to what KathyM said, yes there are some men that pervert Christianity to seduce women. Paul gave a test for that and also said these are the lowest type of men.

 

For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

 

2) Paul warned that some Christians are jealous of the liberty in Christ other Christians have and want to weigh people down with unnecessary yokes. For example, Paul warned the Galatians as they were accepting teachings that in addition to accepting Christ, they had to keep the Law. Paul basically scolds them for deserting the gospel he and the apostles preached.

 

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

 

Conincidentally, the passage you stated about whatever is not done in faith is sin, is precisely dealing with how to handle non-essential doctrines. Paul basically said, if you walk in total liberty be careful not to offend weaker Christians. Similarly, if your conscience convicts you to refrain do not judge others that do not.

 

The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.

2) Why has this term come to be RESPECTED by a god-hating world? Something fishy is going on? Do you smell it?

 

I get what you are trying to say (I think? Correct if wrong). That so many Christians are misguided that if they were authentic the word Christian would evoke hatred by unbelievers, instead of instant respect. I honestly don't know who gets instant respect like that expect maybe politicians or card carrying members of the Southern Baptist convention (joke there).

 

However, I do not think that Christianity should evoke automatic hatred by unbelievers. Who was Jesus hated by? The adulterers and tax collectors? Or the holier than thou religious leaders?

 

The main example of gentiles getting offended is in Ephesus when Paul was converting large numbers of people. Merchants became angry because it was cutting into their idol making business. Basically, I can see industries like adult industry, etc. angry at Christianity as it cuts into their business plan. But I don't get why the run of the mill business dealers would care one way or the other.

 

Unfortunately, too many people know Christians by what they criticize instead of knowing Christians by their acts of love. Agree with Pastor Bob here, who I do believe to be a bible-believing Christian, that is humble and a seeker of knowledge. I hope you check it out!

 

Edited May 29, 2013 by TheFinalWord

[M30USA]

TFW, I have a question:

 

When Christ said that "narrow is the gate" that leads to life, that "hard is the way", and that "few find it", do you take this in a literal sense (as in percentage) or in a conceptual sense (as in to prove a concept)?

 

*Keep in mind that BOTH gates are apparent gates to heaven--or ways to heaven. It's not heaven versus hell.

Edited May 29, 2013 by M30USA

[TheFinalWord]

TFW, I have a question:

 

When Christ said that "narrow is the gate" that leads to life, that "hard is the way", and that "few find it", do you take this in a literal sense (as in percentage) or in a conceptual sense (as in to prove a concept)?

 

*Keep in mind that BOTH gates are apparent gates to heaven--or ways to heaven. It's not heaven versus hell.

 

How do you know that both gates are gates to heaven? Please expand on your understanding here. Are you saying there is more than one way to heaven?

 

Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

If we take both passages (from Matthew and Luke) it seems that there is only one way to heaven, and only a few find it. What is the door? Seems John answers.

 

John

Jesus said, "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."

 

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.