People use term "Christian" to get reputation perks

[M30USA]

Mme,

 

The phrase "fiery chariot" is what a person around 2500 BC used to describe something he witnessed. What else could he have called it? Chariots were the only vehicle he knew. And it looked like it was on fire to him. But don't you think that if the chariot were truly on fire that it would have burned and been consumed?

 

If it were truly just an Egyptian chariot, then show me an Egyptian chariot which flies through the air OR is able to emit flames all around it. Or one that is associated with one of the most bizarre events in Bible where a man physically disappears into the sky. Or one where it says that The Lord, himself, is "among them".

[Mme. Chaucer]

Mme,

 

The phrase "fiery chariot" is what a person around 2500 BC used to describe something he witnessed. What else could he have called it? Chariots were the only vehicle he knew. And it looked like it was on fire to him. But don't you think that if the chariot were truly on fire that it would have burned and been consumed?

 

No, not in a world where people raise from the dead, etc.

 

And please give me a break. "Unidentified Flying Object" is a lot less specific than "chariots" and it's not a scientific term. A person in 2500 BC certainly could have chosen to call something that they could not identify … an unidentified thing. Sheesh.

 

If it were truly just an Egyptian chariot, then show me an Egyptian chariot which flies through the air OR is able to emit flames all around it. Or one that is associated with one of the most bizarre events in Bible where a man physically disappears into the sky. Or one where it says that The Lord, himself, is "among them".

 

What are you going on about now? I don't think "it was truly just an Egyptian chariot." I don't even believe in any of it. My point is that if you are a literalist about the bible, then it WAS a chariot. YOU don't get to conjecture about whether it was a UFO, or a burning crashing 747 from some time warp, or a flaming Phoenix, or anything else and keep your mantle of He Who Defines Everything Biblical Literally. You are demoted to a guy who fancifully interprets what he reads in the Bible. Which you decry when others do it.

 

Get humble, why dontcha.

 

Sorry.

[M30USA]

Mme,

 

In continuation of my last post, consider the following examples of what various people have called the same phenomenon in the sky:

 

Ezekiel - "fiery chariot"

Alexander the Great's army - flying silver shields which were spitting fire

Roman soldiers - flying shields

Ben Franklin - "machine" flying over his plantation

American Indians - flying canoes

Americans after 1950 - flying saucers/UFOs

 

Note: What people have been seeing has not changed. The WORDS to describe them have. They use words known to them when describing things unknown to them. HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO BE LITERAL WHEN YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT YOURE SEEING? That is how you can be a literalist and yet not take the word "chariot" as literally an Egyptian wooden chariot.

Edited May 31, 2013 by M30USA

[Robert Z]

Mme,

 

In continuation of my last post, consider the following examples of what various people have called the same phenomenon in the sky:

 

Ezekiel - "fiery chariot"

Alexander the Great's army - flying silver shields which were spitting fire

Roman soldiers - flying shields

Ben Franklin - "machine" flying over his plantation

American Indians - flying canoes

Americans after 1950 - flying saucers/UFOs

 

Note: What people have been seeing has not changed. The WORDS to describe them have. They use words known to them when describing things unknown to them. HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO BE LITERAL WHEN YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT YOURE SEEING? That is how you can be a literalist and yet not take the word "chariot" as literally an Egyptian wooden chariot.

 

While I might or might not tend to agree, that is an assumption. You don't know that they were all seeing the same thing.

 

Btw, all of Alexanders stuff is highly suspect. It was all written down well after the fact with little or no original sources. Did saucers really fire at the city of Tyre and cause the walls to come tumbling down? Who knows? It is as much fairy tale as anything.

 

The story of Alexander parallels the story of Jesus in many ways.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Robert Z

[M30USA]

Did saucers really fire at the city of Tyre and cause the walls to come tumbling down? Who knows? It is as much fairy tale as anything.

 

Seriously??? Do you have any sources for that? I'm interested more than you can believe.

 

It immediately made me think of the walls of Jericho, which were destroyed by an angel as Israel marched around it.

[Robert Z]

Seriously??? Do you have any sources for that? I'm interested more than you can believe.

 

It immediately made me think of the walls of Jericho, which were destroyed by an angel as Israel marched around it.

 

LOL! Oh no, I'm feeding the monster!!!

Deconstructing the Alexander the Great UFO story | Openminds.tv

 

Psssssst, Alexander was also led through the desert by a talking snake.

 

But from what I read, there was likely an orchestrated effort to create myths that would raise Alexander to God status, perhaps led by Alexander himself.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

Haha, I just happened to notice this at the same link as above.

 

This summer Australian theater goers will be able to enjoy a production unlike any other, a play on alien abductions. The play is titled Alienation, and is based off of interviews with Australians who believe they have experienced real alien abductions.

 

The production notes say that the play is for skeptics and believers alike, and it is thought-provoking as well as witty and “bitingly” funny. Rock ballads that “shaped this generation’s view on space,” are also infused throughout the performance.

Alien abduction play opening in Australia | Openminds.tv

[M30USA]

LOL! Oh no, I'm feeding the monster!!!

Deconstructing the Alexander the Great UFO story | Openminds.tv

 

Psssssst, Alexander was also led through the desert by a talking snake.

 

But from what I read, there was likely an orchestrated effort to create myths that would raise Alexander to God status, perhaps led by Alexander himself.

 

I'm actually mad at you right now. I was just forced to add yet another book onto my endless "must read list". It's one of the ones mentioned in your link.

 

Wonders in the Sky: Unexplained Aerial Objects from Antiquity to Modern Times: Jacques Vallee, Chris Aubeck: 9781585428205: Amazon.com: Books

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

Note: What people have been seeing has not changed. The WORDS to describe them have. They use words known to them when describing things unknown to them.

 

That's where a term that includes the word "unidentified" would be appropriate. Instead of "chariots."

 

HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO BE LITERAL WHEN YOU DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT YOURE SEEING? That is how you can be a literalist and yet not take the word "chariot" as literally an Egyptian wooden chariot.

 

Um … the guys who saw the "chariots" or whatever they were are not being taken to task about whether they are literalists or not.

 

YOU are. If you take the bible literally, you need to accept that they saw chariots.

 

But, you do not accept this.

 

Therefore, you are not taking the bible literally.

 

 

 

The End

[Robert Z]

I'm actually mad at you right now. I was just forced to add yet another book onto my endless "must read list". It's one of the ones mentioned in your link.

 

Wonders in the Sky: Unexplained Aerial Objects from Antiquity to Modern Times: Jacques Vallee, Chris Aubeck: 9781585428205: Amazon.com: Books

 

Well if you're going to read anyone, Vallee is probably as good as it gets in the hardcore-believer scientist crowd. He was Hynek's protégé, you know.

[Robert Z]

Moses and his pillar of fire that led him through the desert by night

King Thutmose and his circles of fire

Nicholas Roerich [Explorer] and his gleaming craft

3000 BC China and the sons from the sky

The Sumerian texts

Many Native American beliefs

8000 BC Australian Aboriginal beliefs in "dawn beings" from the stars

The Japanese legend of Utsuro Bune

Many Peruvian legends

And even possibly the Foo Fighters of WWII!

 

It is interesting to consider how the notion of visitations from "star people" or similar is a recurring theme throughout many cultures, and going back as far as written history will allow and then some; possibly even in the form of drawings on cave walls.

 

It does make a person wonder.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Robert Z

[M30USA]

Well if you're going to read anyone, Vallee is probably as good as it gets in the hardcore-believer scientist crowd. He was Hynek's protégé, you know.

 

Yes, I'm aware of Vallee's high credentials. That's why I need to read that one. I've read of his stuff but wasn't aware of that book.

[Robert Z]

Yes, I'm aware of Vallee's high credentials. That's why I need to read that one. I've read of his stuff but wasn't aware of that book.

 

I assumed as much.

 

I think the first book on the subject I ever read was by Hynek. At the time I knew very little about this and assumed the guy was either nuts or lying. But as time went on I realized that these reports really do exist. When the NSA archives came online I was glued to my computer for weeks reading all of the declassified military reports.

 

I've also followed the work of Dr. Peter Sturrock, Dr. Bernard Haisch, and Dr. Bruce Maccabee - all physicists.

[GorillaTheater]

Considering the fact that Jesus spoke in parables more often than not, where is the need to take everything in the Bible literally? Particularly the stuff the writer did not actually witness, like the first 10-15 chapters of Genesis?

[M30USA]

I assumed as much.

 

I think the first book on the subject I ever read was by Hynek. At the time I knew very little about this and assumed the guy was either nuts or lying. But as time went on I realized that these reports really do exist. When the NSA archives came online I was glued to my computer for weeks reading all of the declassified military reports.

 

I've also followed the work of Dr. Peter Sturrock, Dr. Bernard Haisch, and Dr. Bruce Maccabee - all physicists.

 

Obviously we don't share all the same views. But just think of the HUMOR if it turns out these objects are angelic beings and yet we are looking at it from a military/defense perspective, filing reports via the Air Force, trying to view them from a technological standpoint. I can't help but wonder if, deep down, the angels are laughing.

[Robert Z]

Obviously we don't share all the same views. But just think of the HUMOR if it turns out these objects are angelic beings and yet we are looking at it from a military/defense perspective, filing reports via the Air Force, trying to view them from a technological standpoint. I can't help but wonder if, deep down, the angels would laugh.

 

Or perhaps religion is a cruel joke perpetrated by beings with their own agenda?

 

If you go down the path of "they're here", then all bets are off. Anything is possible.

[M30USA]

Considering the fact that Jesus spoke in parables more often than not, where is the need to take everything in the Bible literally? Particularly the stuff the writer did not actually witness, like the first 10-15 chapters of Genesis?

 

Concepts are literal, even if not physical and tangible.

[Robert Z]

How do you account for people like Col. Corso who clearly describes them as technological beings?

[M30USA]

How do you account for people like Col. Corso who clearly describes them as technological beings?

 

I didn't make myself clear. I do believe they are technogical in the sense that they can be physical, use technology, and operate by laws of physics. However, to say they are technological as a PRIMARY characteristic, in my opinion, seems to miss the mark. Everything and anything in the universe COULD be viewed technologically, but this view is too narrow to encompass the meaning behind their identity and purpose. Unfortunately our culture is focused on science like a laser that we fail to see the other aspects. This is why we, as it stands now, will never grasp their reality.

[Robert Z]

I didn't make myself clear. I do believe they are technogical in the sense that they can be physical, use technology, and operate by laws of physics. However, to say they are technological as a PRIMARY characteristic, in my opinion, seems to miss the mark. Everything and anything in the universe COULD be viewed technologically, but this view is too narrow to encompass the meaning behind their identity and purpose. Unfortunately our culture is focused on science like a laser that we fail to see the other aspects. This is why we, as it stands now, will never grasp their reality.

 

Well, one could make the same argument for us humans.

 

I understand why Hynek was leaning to "transdimensional" by the time he died. But from my point of view, even if we assume something like transdimensional beings exist, I think we have to assume that their agenda may have nothing good to do with us. We may be little more than animals in a zoo to them.

 

I guess I tend to see things almost exactly the opposite of you. While I do allow that the wild side of this might exist, you see this as fundamentally spiritual, whereas I would bet that physics can account for this long before the Bible can.

 

I would agree that "transdimensional" could to us seem a spiritual concept. But I would liken that to showing a caveman an aircraft. He would probably assume this to be some sort of magic or the work of gods, whereas it can really be explained with Bernoulli's equations and conservation of momentum.

[M30USA]

Well, one could make the same argument for us humans.

 

I understand why Hynek was leaning to "transdimensional" by the time he died. But from my point of view, even if we assume something like transdimensional beings exist, I think we have to assume that their agenda may have nothing good to do with us. We may be little more than animals in a zoo to them.

 

Their agenda may never become entirely known. And being the more advanced race, they basically can control what we know and don't know about them. I'm not a believer in a total government coverup. They might know a bit more than us, but the main coverup is by the ETs themselves. As I've repeated several times on LS, the angels in the Bible operate in the same secretive and elusive manner.

 

I guess I tend to see things almost exactly the opposite of you. While I do allow that the wild side of this might exist, you see this as fundamentally spiritual, whereas I would bet that physics can account for this long before the Bible can.

 

The spiritual world is more real than the strictly physical world. Spiritual beings not only exist in their higher dimensions, but they apparently can enter in and out of our dimensions either at will or with technology. Therefore they are more real than us.

 

I would agree that "transdimensional" could to us seem a spiritual concept. But I would liken that to showing a caveman an aircraft. He would probably assume this to be some sort of magic or the work of gods, whereas it can really be explained with Bernoulli's equations and conservation of momentum.

 

I think "spiritual" is merely a simplistic way of saying anything which exists in higher dimensions than us. It can still be physical, but we may not see it at all times or in the same way as other things which are "stuck" in our 3 dimensions.

[Robert Z]

The spiritual world is more real than the strictly physical world. Spiritual beings not only exist in their higher dimensions, but they apparently can enter in and out of our dimensions either at will or with technology. Therefore they are more real than us.

 

I'm not sure I follow the logic but I think I get your meaning.

 

I think "spiritual" is merely a simplistic way of saying anything which exists in higher dimensions than us. It can still be physical, but we may not see it at all times or in the same way as other things which are "stuck" in our 3 dimensions.

 

4 dimensions. According to Einstein, time and space go together.

 

I almost hate to admit it because I have very hard time with your logic, but I do like your last statement a lot!

 

The big if-then! I like pure logic. It is almost like writing computer code.

 

If higher dimensions in space exist, and various models suggest that they might, or if other universes exist in a multiverse of universes, and some models suggest that they might, then if it is possible to travel at speeds greater than the speed of light, or if it possible to transcend dimensional barriers, THEN given the vastness of the universe and perhaps a multiverse that is infinite in every sense, and given that there could be races in this universe a billion years more advanced than us, or perhaps in a multiverse of universes, beings a trillion-trillion years beyond us, THEN one would logically have to expect visitations. It is a simple numbers game based on the real possibilities.

 

So for me it boils down this: Visitations from beings advanced far beyond what we can imagine could be a near logical certainty. It all depends on the nature of the universe and/or multiverse, and what fundamental limits might exist, and we don't know those answers yet.

 

So place your bets and throw the dice...

[Robert Z]

I am curious where you land in the spectrum of beliefs.

 

Do you believe there were bodies recovered at Roswell and that a good deal of modern technology was actually reverse engineered from alien technology? [the story Col. Corso tells]

 

Do you believe in alien abductions?

 

Do you believe that aliens covertly walk among us today?

[M30USA]

I am curious where you land in the spectrum of beliefs.

 

Do you believe there were bodies recovered at Roswell and that a good deal of modern technology was actually reverse engineered from alien technology? [the story Col. Corso tells

 

These are the undeniable facts about Roswell:

 

1) The event did happen.

2) An aerial object did crash and leave debris.

3) There were victims of an unspecified type.

4) The area was closed off by the military.

5) The US govt changed their explanation twice.

 

Do you believe in alien abductions?

 

Dr. Mack of Harvard concluded after assessing 1200+ abductees that some phenomenon IS happening. He proved that it's NOT psychosis or any form of mental illness. He also proved that it's not a "dream".

 

I'm not sure to what extent it's physical or to what extent it's spiritual/psychological. But the events in abductions ARE happening.

 

Do you believe that aliens covertly walk among us today?

 

The research of Dr. David Jacobs suggests that the prime objective of abductions is to create a hybrid race of human-alien offspring who appear mostly human and can walk around unnoticed.

Edited June 1, 2013 by M30USA

[Robert Z]

You might appreciate this. One night I apparently disappeared from the house in the middle of the night and I have no idea where I was. As far as I knew, I had fallen asleep on the couch and was there all night. But the ex said that she got up and looked everywhere for me and I was nowhere to be found. When I suggested that she had dreamt the whole thing, she showed the dirty dishes from her late-night snack, which is why she had gotten up.

 

My best guess is that I was sleep working. I suspect I had actually walked to my office and worked while still asleep. But my ex wanted me to get hypnotized and started thinking that I had been abducted by aliens.