Myths, spirituality, religion, philosophy, dogma...

[loveregardless]

I was just wondering if anyone was familiar with the distinct connection between the "myths" in the Christian bible and the "myths" for other ancient cultures all over the world. I have been reading a book called, "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" by Manly P. Hall and I am continuing to encounter stories that parallel stories in the bible. For one, the Dying God myth is something that is prelevant in stories even dating back to 4000 B.C. These types of stories all include refference to the particular God as a "sheppard" or "the lord of the shepherd seat", "reedemer", dying/murder for the "salvation" of his followers and also his "ressurrection". A few such myths have a connection to midnight on December 24th and also the origin of the pine tree tradition (Christmas Trees) was a direct result of one such myth. (as well as many myths of tragic floods, etc. etc.) One direct quote from this book says that :

 

" The secret import of this world tragedy and the Universal Martyr must be rediscovered if Christianity is to reach the heights attained by the pagans in the days of their philosophic supremacy. The myth of the dying god is the key to both universal and individual redemption and regeneration, and those who do not comprehend the true nature of this supreme allegory are not priveleged to consider themselves either truly wise or truly religious."

 

So I suppose my question is this; ...how when confronted with philosophical contradictions such as these, does the church still have such a strong hold over the individual. How is it that the church can dismiss any philosophical or historical documentation that contradicts itself, as it has for thousands of years, and still have control over the mids/hearts of so many American's...and people world wide. Why of all religions is it that people will defend Christianity with such "fury"? I don't really know what I am trying to say, save that I want to share this knowledge with all of you...I just don't understand why more people do not know of these things. ???

[Fayebelle]

Faith, Hope, and Love.

 

I have read many similar things but in the end- religion and spirituality come down to Faith, Hope, and Love.

 

You have to be willing to seek the message behind the stories. The reason so many have similar stories is b/c they all have similar messages- just different ways of expressing it. Thru the yrs many religions have been blended and absorbed into one another.

 

But in the end- the message is the same.

 

Faith, Hope, and Love.

[loveregardless]

that is my point is that it is the message that should prevail and not the story...however that is not the case...it IS the story being emphasized...it IS the specifics...if it were the faith, hope and love that were being emphasized then my quest would have never have had a source from which to start. Why is it not the message that we concern ourselves with...because it is not. You are very rare that you can see the stories as myth and the message as the truth...and yet aren't you still a member of a Christian church Faye? Just asking...know that I am not trying to attack anyone...I merely seek to understand better the human minds in question.

[Fayebelle]

Because- I do believe in a Higher Power- I believe Jesus was the son of God who died for our sins- I believe in spirits and mysteries- prayer and meditation

 

I go to Church for direction and fellowship- when I have questions about life- I find answers there- Guidance

 

 

I do not believe that my Church is the only right and proper passage to God- I do not criticize others for their beliefs- but there are times I need help seeing the path under my feet

 

The Church and clergy provide me w/the light to see what has always been and always will be the road to glory and goodness.

[tokyo]

I think people want to belong to a group or community to find comfort, therefore they have to separate themselves from other people.

[Papillon]

That there are so many different religions, but most expound the same general truths, very succintly illustrates that religion is manmade.

[tokyo]

Which does not answer the question why they are not happy together with one religion. Wouldn´t you like to be part of the same happy family as I am, Papi?

[loveregardless]

a constructed path? I also have read that many people simply are not capable of "thinking outside the box" so to speak, and that they are meant to live life as sheep and not sheppards. There is no shame in this...and it makes sense to think that people NEED spirituality in their lives...i just do not see why people must follow a group...perhaps because I am different and I do not need a group...that doesn't make me any better/worse however....it just seems to be the way things go. I completely agree with papy that "religion" is man made. however i feel that "spirituality" is divine and that there is truth in the mysteries of this life that cannot be explained or dogmatized...

Papi, I worry that because of the "abolute truth" type "religion" that you used to be involved in that you are now cynical and doubting of all spirituality and mystery....this again I feel is a direct result of these types of dogmas...for those of us who cannot be satisfied as sheep and by simply believing a "set" of "truths" as absolute that we are forced away from "faith, hope, love" and that many never recover...Papi...you are divine just like the rest of us...please don't let your disdain for these dogmas blind you from the possibilities of true faith.

[Papillon]

Originally posted by kooky

Which does not answer the question why they are not happy together with one religion. Wouldn´t you like to be part of the same happy family as I am, Papi?

 

 

Hell no! How'm I gonna make money from my televangelist scam and "Missionary" work?!?

 

I won't be able to blame the Muslims anaymore, or Israel for that matter

 

And it means a better O+ blood supply for me, thanks to the JH's

[loveregardless]

on my own thread...but Papi are those pics of you, too?

I don't recognize you without your snow white face on. (teasing )

Anyway...you still didn't respond to my statement...I want to level with serious Papi...with whatever remnants of a "faith"full Papi that there ever was...I want to badly to get inside your head. you intrigue me.

also, good call with the reference to televangelism and missionary work...another thing that concerns me above all else. If the religion is based on a need to be guided...why then does the herd go about trying to convert others and professing their "correctness"...it can't just be a personal choice for structure...it is something else...there is something else...what? what? why do me need a path and a structured religion...why do we need others to then belive as we do...and then why then do we need to change those who disagree or condemn them...why? I don't understand why the human mind, perfectly capable of advanced thought and true enlightenment, seeks the shortest road to follow and then convinces itself of it's "righteousness"...I just don't understand...Papi...I'm still waiting on that heart to heart.

[HokeyReligions]

Funny I read this one right after reading some posts on the news media and how news is reported and manipulated!

 

how when confronted with philosophical contradictions such as these, does the church still have such a strong hold over the individual. How is it that the church can dismiss any philosophical or historical documentation that contradicts itself, as it has for thousands of years, and still have control over the minds/hearts of so many American's...and people world wide. Why of all religions is it that people will defend Christianity with such "fury"?

 

It's in the presentation -- tone of voice/writing, use of descriptives, what is NOT said is just as important as what IS said. Look at Napoleon, Hitler, Jesus, etc. from a sociological stand-point and not from what they were representing.

 

The written word has power -- the spoken word moreso. A good speaker, one with charisma can lead people and convince them that partial facts are whole truths.

 

I also have read that many people simply are not capable of "thinking outside the box" so to speak, and that they are meant to live life as sheep and not sheppards.

 

Yes, and this has been around for ages. Individuals and groups behave and believe in different ways. It can be applied to everything --- politics, religion, society, education, science. Even people who have differing beliefs from the mainstream can be led by a charismatic or forceful leader or entity.

 

I did a lot of reading and questioning on Christianity and sociology and science and creationism vs. evolution, and spirituality vs. religion. That's why I'm agnostic. I do believe that man created god, not the other way around. Organized religion is led by individuals and groups and they filter information and lead their congregations according to rules set down by their predecessors--not just Christianity, but other religions as well--so that often, even the free-thinkers among them are still just thinking inside a bigger box!

[Fayebelle]

clean out your mailbox

 

Jeez it's like YL allover again

[Papillon]

Originally posted by loveregardless

on my own thread...but Papi are those pics of you, too?

I don't recognize you without your snow white face on. (teasing )

Anyway...you still didn't respond to my statement...I want to level with serious Papi...with whatever remnants of a "faith"full Papi that there ever was...I want to badly to get inside your head. you intrigue me.

also, good call with the reference to televangelism and missionary work...another thing that concerns me above all else. If the religion is based on a need to be guided...why then does the herd go about trying to convert others and professing their "correctness"...it can't just be a personal choice for structure...it is something else...there is something else...what? what? why do me need a path and a structured religion...why do we need others to then belive as we do...and then why then do we need to change those who disagree or condemn them...why? I don't understand why the human mind, perfectly capable of advanced thought and true enlightenment, seeks the shortest road to follow and then convinces itself of it's "righteousness"...I just don't understand...Papi...I'm still waiting on that heart to heart.

 

 

Yes, love, those are my photographs. I was also tired of my snow-white face

 

Love, I used to be religious, long time ago, in a galaxy far far away. When I was younger. I do believe that the universe is infinitely more complex, yet infinitely more simple, than we can EVER imagine. There has to be something outside of human understanding, that explains it all. We're here, everything IS...it must have some purpose. But that kind of thinking is the road to insanity.

 

I realised that religion does not even REMOTELY explain the universe, and our lives. The more I thought about it, the more I came to the conclusion that religion is merely a sugar-coating for people who cannot take their reality straight. Water for the bourbon.

 

It's just too much detail. This saint, that ordinance. This rule, that dogma. I do not believe in any manmade religion anymore, it's just all madmade trappings. Spirituality is pure, and deeply unique for each person, something that can NEVER be captured in a book or taught. It's such a shame that manmade religion kills that spiritual child in each of us.

[loveregardless]

since the last discussion that we had, oh so long ago, I have since calmed myself a little to be able to truly understand what it is that I am seeking. I completely respect your agnosticism...my question however is...have you not ever had any experiances that cannot be explained away by science or even by considering the vastness of the human imagination? I have...and I have been near many who have... and this is why I cannot succumb to the idea that God is man made...have you ever had an out of body experiance, a near death experiance, anything....anything at all...I feel that is it is exactly that which you are referring to that leads people to lose faith completely in spirituality or God, because of the smallmindedness of the world...we recognize that we are not sheep to be hearded and yet also discard any ideas that there may be something at all...is it merely because of exhaustion, or for the lack of a better word, the loss of will to find the "truth"...

You and Papi have very simliar mindsets and I would love to sit down with you and go back and forth all day long, forever even...I just feel that it is a shame to give up on ourselves and our individual spirituality because of the dissapointment that "religion" has caused us. You said that you have read much on the subject, as I am sure that you have...but have you read the more occult of the teachings, the more philosophical...have you read the unexplainable studies and metaphysical occurances that science and psychology have no answer for...this is why I cannot discount "spirituality" and cannot agree that God is of our creation....and cannot fathom people of such extreme intelligence arriving at such a conclusion. Where/when did it happen that your faith was completely lost? Or was it simply never there to being with? Please explain it to me...

[tokyo]

Papi...you are divine just like the rest of us...

Oh boy, he´s not divine, believe me.....

[Papillon]

Yeah, I'm a baaaaaad boy!

 

 

Kooky, are those handcuffs on too tight, pet?

[loveregardless]

You know what I mean kooky! haha...

I cleaned out my mailbox...sorry...I'm not really awake today..I feel like I'm in a haze...anyway...

 

It's just too much detail. This saint, that ordinance. This rule, that dogma. I do not believe in any manmade religion anymore, it's just all manmade trappings. Spirituality is pure, and deeply unique for each person, something that can NEVER be captured in a book or taught. It's such a shame that manmade religion kills that spiritual child in each of us.

 

completely agree with everything your saying...except to say that there is nothing of spirituality that can be captured in a book or taught. I think that capturing the enlightened thoughts of an individual on paper is wonderful...and I think that something can be taken, some spark of something can be learned from everything religious or spiritual that we read, it is just knowing how to read, and with what frame of mind to read such books in. You have to realize that the person writing the book is as flawed as the rest of us and that everything they wrote is subject to their individual interpretation as well as your own...but I think that learning can not take place without sharing and learning from the experiances of others.

 

I am however overjoyed to see that the spiritual child in you does still live...even though your cynicism and disdain for religion is often all that shows through...

 

and I also agree that attempting to understand the mysteries of the universe is a straight shot, first class ticket to insanity...but Papi, I have nothing left to lose in that department. Insanity was the vehicle that delivered me on my "quest" to begin with. And I rather risk a life of insanity that risk a life of ignorance. If it's out there and others have been privelaged to the information...I want to know! I want to be in complete control of my life and my reality...my future...my health...my spirituality...everything that is "humanly" possible...not have it be decided by the direction and flow of "civilization" and what "they" feel fit to "teach" us. And in my opinion, that type of insanity that has overtaken the world is far more viscious than knowledge could ever be...

[Papillon]

Have you read "Contact" by Carl Sagan?

 

He speaks of a feeling called "Numinous"...he describes it loosely as that totally overwhelming feeling of feeling utterly tiny and alone yet totally at one with everything.

 

I get that feeling when I lie on my back on the lawn on a clear, quiet night, and gaze at the stars. I used to associate that feeling with "God", nowadays I realise "God" has nothing to do with it, that feeling comes from within, it's all my own.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Papillon

Have you read "Contact" by Carl Sagan?

 

He speaks of a feeling called "Numinous"...he describes it loosely as that totally overwhelming feeling of feeling utterly tiny and alone yet totally at one with everything.

 

I get that feeling when I lie on my back on the lawn on a clear, quiet night, and gaze at the stars. I used to associate that feeling with "God", nowadays I realise "God" has nothing to do with it, that feeling comes from within, it's all my own.

 

AMEN! (yes, pun intended!)

 

I was indoctrinated as a child to 'believe' that feeling came from 'God' -- now I believe much differently. That feeling comes from within and there doesn't have to be a absolute answer or explanation for it.

[loveregardless]

but that is assuming that any of us can truly claim anything as "our own"...

 

I will be looking into this book however...I'm such a "fact whore" as my freind once told me...always up for a reading suggestion...I am such an incredible NERD...anyway...

 

I get that feeling when I lie on my back on the lawn on a clear, quiet night, and gaze at the stars. I used to associate that feeling with "God", nowadays I realise "God" has nothing to do with it, that feeling comes from within, it's all my own.

 

but that is assuming that any of us can truly claim anything as "our own"...

I believe that our physical body is our ego and our soul is our true selves...and I believe that all souls are the same...as spark of divinity...and that all are connected...I believe that I am connected to others because I have a lot of unexplainable "feelings"...i would get into it further but don't want to share with everyone that I think I'm an alien... bottom line is...there is too much evidence of spirituality in my life and the lives of people that I have encountered to discount or claim anything...experiances with "angels", "spirits", "astral travel"...however you wanna spell it, things that cannot be explained away...and although I admit I am psychiatricly speaking "insane"(cus I'd say bipolar people are pertty cRaZy)...I also feel more at peace with myself now that I am finally accepting these things and my true "self" then I ever did as a skeptic devoid of faith (and while on medications and trying to rid myself of my cursed insanity might I add)...I went through my dogma phase...my atheist stage...I went through my agnostic stage...and now I'm at "this" stage...whatever it is...and I want so desperately to understand everyone and everything that I feel like I might combust!

[Papillon]

Could be all the 'erb, love

 

I think you're still searching. Could be that it's going to be a lifetime of looking. I certainly hope you find your core before that.

[loveregardless]

is the only thing that keeps me sane....otherwise I would become so overwhelmed I WOULD combust...

don't even get me started on marijuana legalization and ethnogens...

too much passion already for one day...

 

And I am still searching...I hope that I don't ever quit searching...to search is to accept that I do not know everything...that means there is still more to learn...why would you ever want to stop that?! my greatest fear is wasting my potential on being stagnant...I fear that so much potential has already been wasted, and I see it in everyone I meet...it's like everyone glows to me..but no one can see it themselves...who knows? maybe my path is to find my way to a tree, post up shop underneath, and meditate for the remainder of my life...I certianly hope not however for I fear for what the rest of the world will do with itself while I'm away...

 

by the way, with Faye's reassurance...I feel that I am "clairsentient" : emotionally and physically sensitive to the emotions and thoughts of others (person,animal, and plant)....and I believe this with 100% of my heart...because you have no idea what it is like to FEEL that much... it's exhausting, and painful, and amazingly joyful and terrible...everything all at once...if we weren't all connected somehow then I wouldn't feel these things.... I know completely when people are lying...and I have no ability to "lie"...that's why I believe

 

...because I "feel" what is true and what is not...

 

I told you I was an alien

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by loveregardless

have you not ever had any experiances that cannot be explained away by science or even by considering the vastness of the human imagination?

 

Yes, of course. There is far more unknown about humans and the planet and the universe than there is known about them. I don’t require an explanation for everything, I am satisfied in many cases accepting that if there is an explanation – it is not yet knowable to the human race.

 

I have...and I have been near many who have... and this is why I cannot succumb to the idea that God is man made...have you ever had an out of body experiance, a near death experiance, anything....anything at all...I feel that is it is exactly that which you are referring to that leads people to lose faith completely in spirituality or God, because of the smallmindedness of the world...

 

Funny, but I look at it exactly the opposite. The small mindedness is locked into beliefs in religion, or karma, or whatever and in not accepting that an event – no matter how profound – does not have to have a ready explanation. It is that very concept that led me away from the confines of religion.

 

we recognize that we are not sheep to be hearded and yet also discard any ideas that there may be something at all...is it merely because of exhaustion, or for the lack of a better word, the loss of will to find the "truth"...

 

Truth? Truth is subjective. I never discarded the IDEA that there may be some kind of extraterrestrial being, call it God or Aliens or whatever, that has some kind of influence over life on earth or may possibly have had an appendage (maybe Aliens don’t have hands? ) in the conception or development of life on earth.

 

I just feel that it is a shame to give up on ourselves and our individual spirituality because of the dissapointment that "religion" has caused us.

 

I have not given up on anything. I am not disappointed by religion. That is your perception because you would feel like you had lost something important to you if you woke up one day and didn't have confidence in your belief. I can understand that as that is a normal human reaction/emotion/thought. But, I did not lose anything.

 

You said that you have read much on the subject, as I am sure that you have...but have you read the more occult of the teachings, the more philosophical...have you read the unexplainable studies and metaphysical occurances that science and psychology have no answer for...

 

Yes, I’ve read many books, stories, studies, etc. on these things. You said it yourself “unexplainable” and “no answer for”

 

this is why I cannot discount "spirituality" and cannot agree that God is of our creation....and cannot fathom people of such extreme intelligence arriving at such a conclusion.

 

That is because you believe in God and tie spirituality and God together, and perhaps also connect them to intelligence? I see them as entirely separate things, and the only possible conclusion is that there is no answer and religion is faith-based and faith does not have to have proof to exist. It's like saying "I believe in God, therefore He exists" (I think therefore I am) It is all individual faith -- those individuals got together and organized worship and a means to spread their faith and convince others to believe as they did and that has grown over the centuries. It's like the stock market -- when a stocks gets so high it splits and instead of having 50 shares, you now have 100 shares. I think organized religion is totally WHOLLY different from faith and from spirituality.

 

Where/when did it happen that your faith was completely lost? Or was it simply never there to being with? Please explain it to me...

 

I did not lose anything. I was raised to believe in the Christian God and Jesus. I was indoctrinated at an early age. I’ve been baptized --- as an adult. The more I questioned so-called experts (clergy, professors of religion and sociology, etc.) the more I saw that their answers differed, the more questions were raised. There is no proof either way that any God exists, which is why I’m agnostic and not atheist.

 

For me: I didn’t lose faith – I gained a broader perspective.

[Fayebelle]

Originally posted by loveregardless

I told you I was an alien

 

So was Mork- but Mindy thought that was OK

 

I think you're OK- but if your Mother Ship ever comes back- can I go for a ride please? I'd really like to see the Moon close up.

[loveregardless]

that was perfedtly explained. I understand completely now what you are saying, however I still reserve the idea in my head that the Christian faith is what has led us to have such an intense questioning of spirituality as a whole...thats just my opion however. i feel that if we had not been raised with such a strict dogmatic religion governing our lives that we would be more willing to accept the other spectrum of the occult/spiritual...the unexplainable...everything really...and by we I mean many people like you and Papi that I have met, like myself...raised in the Christain faith which did not meet our spiritual needs...anyway...my father is yelling at me about something so I'll be back later.