Does an unkind W justify an A?

[Elfie]

I've been on and off NC for several weeks, either MM breaks it or I do, and we are neighbours, so I'm all over the place mentally.

 

Recently though, a friend of mine was talking to me about someone connected to a family member of mine, and MM's name came up, along with his W. It turned out my friend knew them years ago, and told me that MM's W was bossy, always giving him orders, really gossipy, nosey, always telling the younger girls who worked for them off, would tell them off in front of people, that he was under the thumb, she was always putting him down in front of people too, she acted like she knew it all, been there done that and done it better than anyone.

 

As this was the exact same things I had been told by a neighbour who was always talking to W, and as I rarely see MM and W go out together (and know from lights on in evenings that they are often in separate rooms, (though I know I can never know what really goes on) I guess there might be some truth in it, but, I asked him why he didn't tell me that he was treated like that, why did he always stand up for her - he never says anything bad about her, except they don't have anything physical (gee who'd guess he would tell me that?!).

 

I also asked him why he was happy to let me get wound up and upset, thinking they were really close, when all the time he could have told me what she was like and I would perhaps have been more relaxed about him being with her every single night. It felt like he was beyond loyal to her mentally and emotionally, even though he was cheating. Each question I aksed he didn't really respond, the most I got was "she gets a bit annoyed sometimes". I have heard her snapping at him, and he always helps her carry her bags, taking in her shopping - a real gent on the surface.....

 

So is that the ultimate sign? That genuine loyalty to his W will always outweigh physical cheating, no matter how badly she (allegedly) treats him?

 

But, on the other hand, her treatment towards him, if true, could have justified why he needed me (stroking my ego here)

 

Thanks so much if you've read this lengthy post

Opinions welcome - it's mixed me up even more than I was.

[letmoc]

Maybe she treats him like that because he has strayed before and he knows that so he didn't want to tell you. I am feeling especially bitter today so maybe you shouldn't go by me .

[Praying4Peace]

An unkind spouse could justify a separation, a divorce, marriage counseling. But nothing justifies an A.

 

Does it make an A more possible? Yes, because those who avoid conflict will take a pass on the above choices (either consciously or unconsciously) and let their boundaries go if they come upon someone who fills the void.

[So happy together]

I'm not sure if anything justifies an A. But the fact is, if you are in the middle of one, you don't need justification. Life just 'is what it is' and you do your best to get through it as happily as you can.

 

For me, the better question would be, does duty justify staying in a horrible marriage?

[threelaurels]

No, an unkind wife is justification for getting marriage counseling or a divorce, not for having an affair.

 

If his wife was that bad, he would leave as soon as he got the opportunity. In domestic violence situations, one of the biggest reasons that the victim doesn't leave is because they have no support network. The abuser alienates them from their family and friends. A loving and caring AP is just that--a support system and a way out. Affairs that happen when the marriage really is that bad are most likely going to be an exit affair--not one where the WS is essentially cake-eating and enjoying having the safety of the BS while simultaneously enjoying the excitement of the AP.

 

Unless you live in the house with the couple, you really can't judge their relationship. The wife might be under chronic stress (family member in the hospital, work-related stuff) and that might affect her behavior towards everyone, not just the WS. When the stress passes, she'll go back to being her old stuff.

 

Public behavior between couples is also very different from private behavior. I'm not big on PDA and generally don't go beyond a kiss on the cheek or handholding out in public, but it's a different story at home. I sit on his lap, we touch and kiss a lot, and he'll even do romantic things like picking me up and carrying me into the bedroom You would never be able to tell all that from watching us in public.

[So happy together]

No, an unkind wife is justification for getting marriage counseling or a divorce, not for having an affair.

 

If his wife was that bad, he would leave as soon as he got the opportunity. In domestic violence situations, one of the biggest reasons that the victim doesn't leave is because they have no support network. The abuser alienates them from their family and friends. A loving and caring AP is just that--a support system and a way out. Affairs that happen when the marriage really is that bad are most likely going to be an exit affair--not one where the WS is essentially cake-eating and enjoying having the safety of the BS while simultaneously enjoying the excitement of the AP.

 

Unless you live in the house with the couple, you really can't judge their relationship. The wife might be under chronic stress (family member in the hospital, work-related stuff) and that might affect her behavior towards everyone, not just the WS. When the stress passes, she'll go back to being her old stuff.

 

Public behavior between couples is also very different from private behavior. I'm not big on PDA and generally don't go beyond a kiss on the cheek or handholding out in public, but it's a different story at home. I sit on his lap, we touch and kiss a lot, and he'll even do romantic things like picking me up and carrying me into the bedroom You would never be able to tell all that from watching us in public.

 

 

Wow. This was not my situation at all, as well as the people I know involved in A's. And let me just say, in some affairs there are hidden miseries. My bf was not able to talk to ANYONE about how miserable it was because it affected everything in his life. So, in that respect it was/is an abusive R. As far as I can see, a big reason for lack of leaving is fear of change. BUT... once that change happens, it's GOOD. Any movement is better than stagnating in a miserable marriage/life.

[beyond]

Firstly, no, nothing justifys an affair.

 

Oh Elfie, I'm really sad to see you are still backwards and forwards with this man. I recall your very first thread on here - it stood out because of the truely disgusting and degrading way this MM was treating you.

 

Most stories on here are pretty similar, with two people who although they know shouldn't be together, fall in love/lust etc etc. But your story was so clearly a case of the MM completely using you for sex and then 2 minutes later running back across the road to be with his wife at home. Didn't he even force himself on you one time? (apologies if I've got that wrong, but I recall something like that I'm sure)

 

I really fail to see what keeps you thinking about him. Please focus on yourself and put all thoughts of this pathetic man and trying to think if he has a good reason to act like he did/does out of your head. There are NO good reasons for acting like he did/does.

[So happy together]

Does an unkind W justify having an affair? I would say no. An affair does nothing to address the issues within the marriage. An unkind W would justify insisting that the W do something to address her behaviour and if she doesn't then it would justify terminating the relationship.

 

However I think a better question to ask yourself is Does the MM having an unkind W justify him making me feel like a prostitute (your words from a prior thread)? This is the guy who would go days without contacting you, then turn up at your place, take his member out of his pants and tell you to get to it. Then he would just leave. Lots of meet ups for quickies in his van or car. Never bought you more than hamburger. So does the unkind W justify you allowing this degradation of yourself? Is it okay for you to be treated that way so long as you know that he isn't snuggling on the sofa with his wife?

 

I don't know what to say about how he defends his wife and doesn't ever talk bad about her because I'm confused. In your last thread you stated that he did complain and moan about his wife.

 

Why would knowing for sure that his wife treats him terrible be a stroke to your ego. I think that would be even less validating because if his wife is that horrible, then pretty much anyone would seem appealing to him. He picked you because you were willing to accept the crumbs he offers.

 

I'm trying to look for any sort of support or kindness... not finding it.

[Pjonstone]

The older I get, the more I realize life isn't black and white; nor are relationships so I won't speak to whether or not an A is justified.

 

What I can do is speak from my own experience and that of the relationship I had with my xMM. Having heard first-hand many private interactions between he & the BS, it didn't take long to realize that he was in an emotionally/mentally abusive relationship. (I know, probably everyone thinks I'm making excuses for him. But I know that to be true.) Not saying that's the case here; just saying you can't paint all men in affairs with a broad stroke.

 

It's not always a simple, black-and-white situation as just get into marriage counseling, get out or get a divorce, either. There are MANY emotional issues you're dealing with in an abusive situation. And the abuser isn't all horrible or evil either - there's many "honeymoon" periods. This would also assume that an abusive BS WANTS to be in counseling. Many don't cuz they don't want to be exposed or change.

 

Getting out isn't that easy either. For some people it takes years and years....it took 25 for me to leave my bipolar H. By the time I finally was fed up I was sure that *I* was the crazy one. I'm sure it's even worse for men because how can a woman abuse a man, right? Perhaps he's still so loyal to her because he's suffering Stockholm Syndrome; perhaps he still really loves her; perhaps he just bends over backwards to keep the peace. Who knows what's in another person's heart.

 

But even if it's abuse is his situation, there's little you could do for him other than offer to be there for him if he ever leaves. But the only way it will stop is when he's so torn down he's fed up and ends the relationship for good of his own volition for his own survival. Somehow he has to find a find a crumb of self-esteem, break the cycle, and gather up the psychological energy to leave.

 

I don't know if any of that helps but I sense you're a compassionate person so I'd caution you not to waste to much of your emotional energy focused on his issues. You can't change it and you only frustrate yourself - that's the voice of experience there

[beyond]

I'm trying to look for any sort of support or kindness... not finding it.

 

Have you read the op's previous threads?

 

A number of us have tried to be supportive - especially when she was trying to break free of him and he was confronting her in the street and 'dragging her into his van' (her words).

 

I don't think it's supportive to soft soap things and pretend this story is about some star crossed lovers who need to be together if only it wasn't for the meany wicked wife.

[threelaurels]

Wow. This was not my situation at all, as well as the people I know involved in A's. And let me just say, in some affairs there are hidden miseries. My bf was not able to talk to ANYONE about how miserable it was because it affected everything in his life. So, in that respect it was/is an abusive R. As far as I can see, a big reason for lack of leaving is fear of change. BUT... once that change happens, it's GOOD. Any movement is better than stagnating in a miserable marriage/life.

 

It's obviously not the same for everyone, but I find it to be generally true. I have done a lot of research on domestic violence in my career as a academic researcher. I am also a former victim of domestic violence.

 

Being miserable in a relationship is not the same thing as abuse. Unlike what many people seem to think, psychological abuse is more than just being mean to someone. It is a type of brainwashing that causes the person to completely question who they are and the world around them. When a WS gaslights the BS, that is a form of psychological abuse.

 

My ex used to coerce me into sex with emotional blackmail. He did sexual things to me without my consent. I would sometimes wake up in the middle of the night to him having sex with me or finishing on my face. He would hit me, and people knew because they could see the bruises. They saw how he treated me in public and they just knew, but I didn't leave until things got really bad. Looking back, I wish I had heeded their warnings.

 

I am not a person who likes change at all. I am definitely a home-body, and I get very anxious when I'm forced to deviate from my norms. I was afraid to leave too, but I had to. I used cheating as a means to escape. Staying in the relationship just wasn't an option anymore. I had drug abuse problems, and I was willing to go through withdrawal--one of the worst physical experiences you can possibly go through--just to get out. I didn't care how it changed or affected my life. Anything was better than being with him, even becoming homeless and alone.

 

I left him about three hours after I cheated. I didn't go back and forth for months or years between two people. Someone who has a loving and caring relationship on one hand and an abusive one on the other isn't going to just wait around and risk letting the good one go, no matter how much they dislike change. Once you see the relationship for what it is, there is no turning back, only finding a means to escape how ever you can.

[christine5078]

Sounds like MM is in one of those situations we get into in our society that we think we can't get out of. Despite our rates of divorce and cheating, marriage is still a heavy, serious thing in our psyches. For MM, he made a committment and his W being bitchy isn't a reason to ditch her. Add to that the likelihood that his mom was bitchy or some other reason why in his head W's neglect and mistreatment of him and others isn't reason for him to leave. He also may think she has reason to be that way and so he is enabling -- like maybe she wanted to have kids but couldn't, or lost a loved one, or had some illness that left her a certain way -- so he feels she is a victim of her negativity just like he is. But alas, he is human and probably a nice man, otherwise you wouldn't be attracted to him. He seeks affection, companionship, emotional spark, peacefulness... he must find some or all of these things in his interaction with you. But whether or not you are "the one" he should really be with, or you are not long term but a very important relationship on his journey in life (and vice versa), it is important for you to realize that you are paying attention to details that his brain cannot process right now. You are wondering why he didn't use his free time to contemplate you and your relationship and think that if he explained his wife's mistreatment of him, you would understand why he is justifying his cheating. He, on the other hand, hasn't even gotten to a level where he can justify anything. He is living day by day, trying to honor his committment, sticking to it for whatever psychological reasons, while also trying to respond to his pull toward you (which is a pull toward affection and happiness). He is reacting to life, not contemplating, not planning, not taking control. Sounds like he is a long way from leaving her if he ever does, so really you have to decide if you want to be with him here and there, and let that just be what it is, or whether you want him to leave her. The former means you stay with him (for now) and the latter means you run. Good luck.

Edited June 1, 2013 by christine5078

[skylarblue]

I'm not quite sure what the question is, but in regards to the topic...

 

I don't know if anything justifies an A, but I can certainly understand and not condemn it under certain circumstances. However, only to a certain degree.

 

If a MM has a truly horrible W or M and has tried to communicate and work on their problems with her to no avail, then I really think she brought it on herself. However, I don't think it gives him an unlimited, free reign pass to an A. If he's going to have As throughout his marriage, he needs to D. If he's happier or plans to seek a R with the OW, he needs to D. If he is lying to his W about having an A, he needs to D. If she discovers the A, he needs to decide as to whether he's going to stay in his horrible/unhappy M (and be faithful if he does) or get a D if he knows he can't or won't be. If he decide to stay and then realizes he can't be faithful, he needs to inform and separate from his W beforehand. Regardless of the situation or the reasons why, a person either takes it or they don't. You either decide to keep yourself in the situation or you start making plans/steps to remove yourself from it.

 

I don't know your story, but I actually commend MM for keeping his mouth shut (no inference meant to his character/nature). Personally, I have low patience for people who constantly complain about the same situation, but make no effort towards a change particularly when they have support and encouragement to do so. I'm like shut the f*ck up already, sh*t or get off the pot. I don't know whether a guy in that situation stays out of loyalty, convenience, duty, love, weakness, appearance, fear, or laziness, but for whatever the reason, he has decided that it outweighs any motivation to relieve himself of his suffering. He is bringing it on himself, willingly accepting it. He should shut up about it.

[whichwayisup]

So is that the ultimate sign? That genuine loyalty to his W will always outweigh physical cheating, no matter how badly she (allegedly) treats him?

 

Nobody is holding a gun to his head making him stay married. If he truly was that unhappy and can't stand his wife, is sick of how she treats him, he can divorce anytime! He hasn't and that says a lot. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.

 

But, on the other hand, her treatment towards him, if true, could have justified why he needed me (stroking my ego here)

 

So, why do you allow him to use you for an ego stroke? It isn't a justification, this is just how he's handling it, instead of standing up to her, suggesting they fix things, do counseling together etc., instead he's taking the selfish and easy way by doing nothing and ignoring the problems and looking outside of the marriage. In his mind he's justifying it, maybe you are as well, but it isn't an excuse to just go ahead and do as he pleases.

[Elfie]

Hi, thank you to all of you who posted. There are a mix of replies, some hard to hear, but I understand why they are said and your feelings are respected.

 

I'm not sure why I accept such behaviour, but I'd guess it is my past/life/etc and the conditioning I've had in various abusive R's as well as parental and other family member...

 

I did say he moans about W, but this post referred to when I specifically questioned him about her, I guess I felt I was giving him a chance to open up, to let him know I knew things and for him to feel safe to do so. He said you just get used to things, and that he wasn't looking when I came along, he just saw and kept looking. He did say I make him feel wanted and it makes his day if I speak or even if he catches a glimpse of me and he did say he would choose me over her if he was single, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't choose W if a D-Day happened.

 

My friend was telling me the W is like that to everyone - former (younger) staff, customers, as well as MM and it was a few years ago my friend knew them. She just kept saying he seemed quiet, lonely, warn down - I know from my own abusive R's that they do wear you down. He has strayed before, married the OW, together for 18 years before she cheated on him and then he met current W, but I don't know if he has strayed during this marriage (before he met me). He said they have never been friends and she told him she wanted to be married so they got married.

 

Sometimes I don't feel right to post good things about him, because I need to focus on his bad stuff (so I don't get attached) but he loves my voice and he said I'm everything she isn't, (though he said she speaks 4 languages and I know she's a good cook, I am NO COOK at all!!) but I couldn't cope with his using me, I know it is destructive and I know I have to want better, but it must be my empty life that makes me cling on.

 

Sometimes anything, any crumb, is better than the constant rejections friends, family and single guys give me, mostly because of my self esteem, anxiety and confidence issues........but that's a whole other thread

[SoleMate]

Elfie, you have posts going back 4 months. He's used you again and again for sex on terms that a self-respecting hooker would turn down. He has grossly exploited your emotional vulnerability and naivete and caused you pointless pain. He vandalized your car, then offered to fix the damage as a way to further exploit you. The rottenness of this sexual relationship has been well documented by your own posts.

 

So, I have to say, you are asking the exactly wrong question. Although we're all interested in what, if anything, may justify an affair, that question is irrelevant to your recovery and well-being. Focus on that and other incorrect questions will tend to prevent you from addressing the real issue, which is, "What will Elfie do to end this destructive relationship?"

 

Given that you live across the street from the rotten MM and you can't easily move, plus your level of vulnerability and the coercion that has been exerted against you, I would like to see you talk to a counselor, social worker or victim advocate about how you can end this affair and stay safe. I believe just about everyone who has participated on your threads is concerned for you and wants what's best for you.

[Athens]

Nothing justifies an affair, after DDay and counseling, that's the conclusion of my husband who cheated. He considers himself weak and selfish for doing what he did. He considers it the most cowardly act a person can do. His words.

[So happy together]

Have you read the op's previous threads?

 

A number of us have tried to be supportive - especially when she was trying to break free of him and he was confronting her in the street and 'dragging her into his van' (her words).

 

I don't think it's supportive to soft soap things and pretend this story is about some star crossed lovers who need to be together if only it wasn't for the meany wicked wife.

 

I was speaking of myself, not the OP.

[So happy together]

It's obviously not the same for everyone, but I find it to be generally true. I have done a lot of research on domestic violence in my career as a academic researcher. I am also a former victim of domestic violence.

 

Being miserable in a relationship is not the same thing as abuse. Unlike what many people seem to think, psychological abuse is more than just being mean to someone. It is a type of brainwashing that causes the person to completely question who they are and the world around them. When a WS gaslights the BS, that is a form of psychological abuse.

 

My ex used to coerce me into sex with emotional blackmail. He did sexual things to me without my consent. I would sometimes wake up in the middle of the night to him having sex with me or finishing on my face. He would hit me, and people knew because they could see the bruises. They saw how he treated me in public and they just knew, but I didn't leave until things got really bad. Looking back, I wish I had heeded their warnings.

 

I am not a person who likes change at all. I am definitely a home-body, and I get very anxious when I'm forced to deviate from my norms. I was afraid to leave too, but I had to. I used cheating as a means to escape. Staying in the relationship just wasn't an option anymore. I had drug abuse problems, and I was willing to go through withdrawal--one of the worst physical experiences you can possibly go through--just to get out. I didn't care how it changed or affected my life. Anything was better than being with him, even becoming homeless and alone.

 

I left him about three hours after I cheated. I didn't go back and forth for months or years between two people. Someone who has a loving and caring relationship on one hand and an abusive one on the other isn't going to just wait around and risk letting the good one go, no matter how much they dislike change. Once you see the relationship for what it is, there is no turning back, only finding a means to escape how ever you can.

 

There is a much bigger difference between physical abuse and emotional neglect.

 

I'm sorry you went through this. I hope you're better now. I went through something similar years and years ago. Apparently I was not cut from the cloth he thought as I clocked him, had him arrested and left.

[beyond]

]"I was speaking of myself, not the OP".

 

?

So you weren't looking for support and kindness for the op, you were looking for it for yourself?

 

If that's the case, maybe start your own thread - there are many supportive helpful people here who I'm sure will answer.

[2sure]

He told you that he and his wife don't have enough sex, or none.

He hasn't indicated that he is otherwise unhappy and has led you to believe they are close. In my experience, this is an honest scenerio at home with MM.

 

But the neighbors don't like his wife.

 

Really.

[whichwayisup]

Sometimes anything, any crumb, is better than the constant rejections friends, family and single guys give me, mostly because of my self esteem, anxiety and confidence issues........but that's a whole other thread

DO start another thread about this, in the self improvement/personal well beings section here on LS. I really want to help you with this because you have SO MUCH to offer and all this love and energy you're pouring into someone who isn't available and isn't divorcing his wife is wasted. And it's doing a lot of damage to you, worse than if you were alone and not dating anybody.

 

 

Sometimes I don't feel right to post good things about him, because I need to focus on his bad stuff (so I don't get attached) but he loves my voice and he said I'm everything she isn't, (though he said she speaks 4 languages and I know she's a good cook, I am NO COOK at all!!) but I couldn't cope with his using me, I know it is destructive and I know I have to want better, but it must be my empty life that makes me cling on.

 

You both are using each other on some level. You know he's not leaving and divorcing so you're settling to be the OW. You are getting something out of this, filling in voids in your life. He is getting something from you that he doesn't get at home. Selfish on his behalf? Yes. But not malicious.

 

I do hope some day soon you realize you're worth more than settling for table scraps and end things so you can grieve the loss, heal and find a great single guy who can give you all that you need, not just bits and pieces on his terms and time frame.

[findingnemo]

I'll add my voice to the others and say nothing justifies an A. Furthermore, a focus on the BW is misplaced and will lead no where since you have absolutely no control over what she does or doesn't do. She may be a monster but your MM must decide to leave her on his own.

 

If it is true she is as bad as people are saying, how does that change anything for you? That is the question to ask yourself.

[HonestNeurotic]

Nothing "justifies" an affair. Not if you intend to live your life as one that is known for keeping their word. I actually divorced my first husband because I did not love him. I did not want to be married anymore. There was no other man. He had no other woman. He deserved to be loved in the way that he needed to be loved. I couldn't fake it anymore.

 

It was seriously difficult to divorce. But I did it. It was best for everyone. INCLUDING our children.

 

If you don't WANT to be married - you don't HAVE to be married. I find marriage kinda nonsensical anyways, as that does nothing at all to ensure love or even "loyalty". People that are not happy being married should either seek counseling to try and fix it or get divorced and move on instead of being whiney babies crying how bad they are treated in their marriage or whatever. That's not fair to the spouse that they don't love. That's CRUEL. Unfortunately, most people won't say what they really feel or want in their lives and are afraid to make big changes. They fear being alone, or having to reduce their lifestyle due to financial issues. Or they know that a divorce would cause all kinds of emotional turmoil as one spouse accuses the other of being a bad parent when there are custody issues involved.

 

But there is never an excuse to have an affair.

Edited June 2, 2013 by HonestNeurotic
THERE not their. Jeez Louise! I know better!

[summerdowling87]

Unkind wife?

 

The way you describe this guy and the way he had treated you he seems like a selfish user who's a narcissist and control freak.

 

It seems like he really only cares about his wants and his needs and he'll do anything to get off.

 

I.E buy you flowers a card food.

 

Who knows how he treats his wife behind closed doors. Maybe he's treating her the same way and he buys her happiness.

 

But of you need to get rid of him.