Does an unkind W justify an A?

[carhill]

OP, I'll add that it may be healthier to focus on your own 'justifications' and 'reasons' rather than speculating regarding the MM's marriage. His justifications and reasons are his own, for him. Do what is healthy for you, for your reasons.

 

As each M is unique, as is each person in one, it's impossible to generalize and people will nearly always disagree on the specifics. At the end of the day, you should decide what matters to you, for your health.

 

As a fMM, IMO no singular nor combined aspect of the M justifies an affair. It's a choice. Each of us has reasons for our choices, and we own them. Good luck.

[Washingmachine1980]

I always heard it's the abuser who cheats and not the one being abused in the relationship.

[Elfie]

 

So, why do you allow him to use you for an ego stroke? QUOTE]

 

Sorry, oops, I didn't explain that right - I'm not using him as an ego stroke, I am suggesting the thought that he might want me is me stroking my own ego - ie building my self esteem, kind of tongue in cheek?

 

OP replies in bold:

 

Alexandria - "I just don't understand all of these recent threads about how the BW is terrible, mean and ugly and the OW is better. Who cares? What does it mean? If your better than the BW then prove it by being too good to get dragged into someone elses marriage and involving yourself in the BW and MM drama".

 

I don't believe I am better than his W, I don't compare at all, she is a mother for a start - 4 kids, first one when she was 18, so she's not had it easy, she speaks 4 languages, is a brillaint cook, runs a business and a full time job. I don't have kids, lost one , and I jsut have my own business, quite closed off from the world. I am just going by what other people have said about his W - bossy, unkind, big headed etc, to lots of people, not just MM, and what I've witnessed myself, the first year they moved in I spent waving to her and saying hi/hello, but I was ignored, even though she spoke to every other female neighbour, though they are elderly or very young. After a year I gave up.

 

Nobody is holding a gun to his head making him stay married. If he truly was that unhappy and can't stand his wife, is sick of how she treats him, he can divorce anytime! He hasn't and that says a lot. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.

 

That's true....and perhaps I should focus on things like that, instead of trying to see the good in him - my default setting in life. I know from experience abused people become conditioned to accept poor treatment and he doesn't have a support network, they have no friends or social life and both their families live in lots of places around the country, His mother too and the only time they spend together is to visit family members, so they're always together - ie he doesn't get chance to talk to his alone. Though I guess he could if he really needed to, as it must be alot easier than conducting an A with a neighbour...

 

"Elfie, you have posts going back 4 months. He's used you again and again for sex on terms that a self-respecting hooker would turn down."

 

I think that more than anything shows just how low my self esteem is - having an A reinforces my feelings that I'm trash, but the advice you've all given me will sink through, even the stuff I find hard to hear, but I'll keep reading until it gets through - thank you all so much, it helps to hear both sugar coated stuff and more honest things. I need to do alot of work on myself and stop thinking about the W, or his needs or how he treated me, and not get taken in by his sympathy (false) and his need for me (an act) as he is clearly really really good at it.

 

I always see the best in people and wanted to believe he was genuine, but like Einstein says - "The definition of crazy is to keep doing the same things and expecting a different outcome"

 

Hugs to you all - will keep posting

[findingnemo]

You know Elfie, you really need to work on that low self-esteem thing. Someone suggested you start a thread about it. I don't know if you did. One thing I know for sure is that saying, thinking, believing you have low self-esteem is a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

You know what kind of man MM is. Even if his W were the worst person on earth, it doesn't excuse bad behaviour towards you. Nothing does. From your posts in this thread, I think you have sufficient self-esteem to realize that you're getting a raw deal. What you need now is the courage to permanently change this situation. Decide that you are important in your own right and deserve more in life (self-esteem). Then do something about it starting with getting this man out of your life (courage).

[beyond]

I find MANY of the people who respond to the OP are not looking for kindness for the op. Perhaps you should. I support the op in whatever they seek and was taking the heat off of the OP in my post. Get over it.

 

You aren't making any sense. You suggested people weren't being kind to the op because we weren't telling her everything was wonderful and would work out fine after knowing the situation she has been writing about for months now.

 

When I pointed this out you said you weren't refering to the the op but to yourself.

 

Kindness comes in many forms - imo it is about helping someone ultimately do the best for themselves in their own situation.

 

Anyway.......back to the thread

[beyond]

 

So, why do you allow him to use you for an ego stroke? QUOTE]

 

Sorry, oops, I didn't explain that right - I'm not using him as an ego stroke, I am suggesting the thought that he might want me is me stroking my own ego - ie building my self esteem, kind of tongue in cheek?

 

OP replies in bold:

 

Alexandria - "I just don't understand all of these recent threads about how the BW is terrible, mean and ugly and the OW is better. Who cares? What does it mean? If your better than the BW then prove it by being too good to get dragged into someone elses marriage and involving yourself in the BW and MM drama".

 

I don't believe I am better than his W, I don't compare at all, she is a mother for a start - 4 kids, first one when she was 18, so she's not had it easy, she speaks 4 languages, is a brillaint cook, runs a business and a full time job. I don't have kids, lost one , and I jsut have my own business, quite closed off from the world. I am just going by what other people have said about his W - bossy, unkind, big headed etc, to lots of people, not just MM, and what I've witnessed myself, the first year they moved in I spent waving to her and saying hi/hello, but I was ignored, even though she spoke to every other female neighbour, though they are elderly or very young. After a year I gave up.

 

Nobody is holding a gun to his head making him stay married. If he truly was that unhappy and can't stand his wife, is sick of how she treats him, he can divorce anytime! He hasn't and that says a lot. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.

 

That's true....and perhaps I should focus on things like that, instead of trying to see the good in him - my default setting in life. I know from experience abused people become conditioned to accept poor treatment and he doesn't have a support network, they have no friends or social life and both their families live in lots of places around the country, His mother too and the only time they spend together is to visit family members, so they're always together - ie he doesn't get chance to talk to his alone. Though I guess he could if he really needed to, as it must be alot easier than conducting an A with a neighbour...

 

"Elfie, you have posts going back 4 months. He's used you again and again for sex on terms that a self-respecting hooker would turn down."

 

I think that more than anything shows just how low my self esteem is - having an A reinforces my feelings that I'm trash, but the advice you've all given me will sink through, even the stuff I find hard to hear, but I'll keep reading until it gets through - thank you all so much, it helps to hear both sugar coated stuff and more honest things. I need to do alot of work on myself and stop thinking about the W, or his needs or how he treated me, and not get taken in by his sympathy (false) and his need for me (an act) as he is clearly really really good at it.

 

I always see the best in people and wanted to believe he was genuine, but like Einstein says - "The definition of crazy is to keep doing the same things and expecting a different outcome"

 

Hugs to you all - will keep posting

 

Yes, keep posting Elfie, it really does help sometimes seeing it all written down in black and white.

 

Hugs to you too x

[Elfie]

I didn't read anything other than the OP and a skimmed through a bunch of responses and didn't want to get dragged into a bunch of side stuff and never get to the OP.

So...

OP, YOU know whether or not you are trying to justify... whether anyone here tells you that you are or not, you know in your head and heart if you are justifying things and looking for a reason.

 

There is NO real justification for having an affair, but that doesn't mean that there aren't reasons that these things happen. It's not a good choice, but it's one that they made, and an unkind wife may make him more SUCCEPTIBLE to an affair, but really it isn't the right answer and we all know that.

Alex's wife is a trainwreck, and there are a million OTHER ways I would have chosen to have dealt with that if I were him than the one course he selected for himself, but I DO understand why he did something. I do understand why he wanted to be with me, and why what we have has grown. It odesn't mean I think it was the right choice or that she deserves it. I hate that idea that what we are doing could hurt her...

I'm just selfish enough that having him in my life makes me happier than not having him in my life, so I'm not giving him up.

 

I know that other threads of yours are being brought up. You know or suspect you are not in a healthy relationship. What are you looking for in terms of support. I want to support you in a way that will be helpful for you. Do you want help getting out of this? I do think it would be the better choice for you.

 

Thank you LFH and yes, I do want help in getting out of this, it's the reason I put myself out here and risked possibly all kinds of responses, but I don't want comparisons to hookers, even though my very first post referred to them, it reinforced my belief that I am one, then it makes it harder to be compared as being lesser than one.

 

I know what I've done is wrong, but MM just seems really good at reeling me in and me being the way I am makes it easier for him.

 

I don't have any support other than here, so anything constructive is so welcome - counselling is a no, I simply don't wish to tell anyone face to face. And living opposite him is difficult - not only because he has lots of chances to see me/shout over as I work from home, I also see the BS who makes me feel like trash, but not worth of getting to know - too late now, but she never has wanted to from the day she moved in. The longest I went NC was 4 days, but during those 4 days I did get to like being "free" of him - there is hope hey

[summerdowling87]

"I know what I've done is wrong, but MM just seems really good at reeling me in and me being the way I am makes it easier for him."

 

I don't think you made it easy for him you just made bad choices in trusting him and letting him in.

 

He's a predator and he took advantage of you.

 

And by your post your history with him just proves it he saw a weakness in you and used it to advantage over and over from what I read.

 

Like I said this guy is a class a user who only cares about his desires.

 

I bet he's also a classic manipulator.

 

10 Signs of a Manipulative Relationship - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

 

Read this link.

[underwater2010]

No...if she was truly that bad he would divorce her. Right now you are an ego stroke and an escape from his reality. What does it say about him, that he is willing to put up with it?

[Elfie]

I do know that there are several types of virtual counseling available now, have you given any thought to that?

 

I didn't know that, thank you very much

[Elfie]

"I know what I've done is wrong, but MM just seems really good at reeling me in and me being the way I am makes it easier for him."

 

I don't think you made it easy for him you just made bad choices in trusting him and letting him in.

 

He's a predator and he took advantage of you.

 

And by your post your history with him just proves it he saw a weakness in you and used it to advantage over and over from what I read.

 

Like I said this guy is a class a user who only cares about his desires.

 

I bet he's also a classic manipulator.

 

10 Signs of a Manipulative Relationship - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com

 

Read this link.

 

OMG this is HIM!! He does withold key information, he stumbles on his words when confronted, he kisses me to shut me up when I question him too much for his own comfort, he plays from across the road, the "hi/please love me/little boy lost" act when I sent texts to ask him to not call me, or when I ask him to leave me alone; he's adept at changing the subject in a heartbeat when confronted, which throws me, and so many other things in this article. And I do end up feeling for him, believing him to be the poor unfortunate, trapped in a cold marriage, ignoring the voice in my head that said if it was that bad he'd leave - I've left frightening relationships on my own, it's hard but it's that bad it's harder to stay. He must be able to cope, and sitting watching TV every night while W works in another room may not mean he is lonely, as I want to believe. It may just mean he's a lazy ass. I always end up feel upset for him, rather than myself!!

 

He thought he was entitled to have all his kids and grandkids, his W's kids ("they call me dad") and grandkids, his home comforts, - "I can't live on my own" - his job, his work colleagues, his "nice bloke, do anything for anyone" status at work and in the community, AND me. He wanted to keep all that, but expected me to be happy with scraps. He CAN have all of those. But he can't have me as well.

 

Thank you for sharing the artcicle. It will help and I have already sent a text this morning, after he pulled me back in yesterday with another sob story. I so hope I stay strong, but will keep posting.

 

You are helping

[waterwoman]

He has been married and divorced several times? He behaves really badly towards you. Perhaps there is a reason why she is mean to him. He doesn't sound like a prize. Good luck in getting free from him x

[findingnemo]

I read the article too. A good guide to have. I also read some of your older posts.

 

Elfie, this man is so disgusting in his behaviour that it is no wonder his W seems pissed off all the time. Run. Do whatever you have to do to get away from him please.

[stillafool]

Does and unkind W justify an A? No, but it is unkind of the H to have an affair with the neighbor. If he feels the W is unkind and he wants to sleep with other women why doesn't he get a divorce. Some men (like some women) get off on abusive behavior so his wife's behavior may turn him on.

[aliveagain]

Elfie,

 

Reading your post makes me want to ask the question: "Are you self sabotaging?" People that don't value themselves often use sex as a way to get attention and approval, unfortunately the results are seldom very rewarding for much longer than the sexual act. If you suffer from low self-esteem you are more prone to tolerate the inappropriate behaviors of others and will stay in abusive and unfulfilling relationships for fear of rejection and failure. Elfie you need to stop your self defeating behavior and make changes to your boundaries, stop choosing chaos, get the help you need with an expert who deals with esteem issues.

[Elfie]

He has been married and divorced several times? He behaves really badly towards you. Perhaps there is a reason why she is mean to him. He doesn't sound like a prize. Good luck in getting free from him x

 

Thank you waterwoman. My friend said she is pretty much the same to others - would tell off younger girls in front of other staff, snap at people - but she will no doubt know a lot more about MM than I will, having been with him for many years. I aksed outright why does he put up with it and he didn't answer, just gave a bit of a wry smile, but this shouldn't influence me, or be relevant to my getting away from him. He did admit to being selfish where I was concerned....

 

Thanks for support x

[Elfie]

Yes, there are phone counselors as well as chat counselors now. I'd make sure that hte person you are reaching out to is actually a CERTIFIED and qualified counselor.

I wish you lots of luck. If you want some help finding some sites that might be beneficial let me know and I'll see if I can get some for you as a starting point. Hang in there ok?

 

Thank you LFH. He rang 3 times today before I felt bad and answered, it ended in coffee, but he jsut kept touching, kissing and him admitting to being selfish. He suggested sex, and added "But you'll just get upset again". I managed to get away but nearly felt I would have to do what he wanted so he wouldn't get mad. Like my uncle did when I kept saying no, but just the fact that I managed to ignore 2 of his calls is a huge step. He seems like a passive aggressor, has indicated a couple of times he's lost it and reacted in anger towards women (exW cheated for one) so it feels like he is really trying to hold it in.

 

Hopefully next time I can go a whole day - small steps but always forward.

Thank you x

[Elfie]

Elfie,

 

Reading your post makes me want to ask the question: "Are you self sabotaging?" People that don't value themselves often use sex as a way to get attention and approval, unfortunately the results are seldom very rewarding for much longer than the sexual act. If you suffer from low self-esteem you are more prone to tolerate the inappropriate behaviors of others and will stay in abusive and unfulfilling relationships for fear of rejection and failure. Elfie you need to stop your self defeating behavior and make changes to your boundaries, stop choosing chaos, get the help you need with an expert who deals with esteem issues.

 

Some truths here perhaps. Yes, I was neglected and mentally abused by mother (doctor's words) and I read that our first sexual experience shapes out future sex lives - not sure if this is true, but mine was my mother's brother, he made me feel nice, wanted and didn't reject me.

 

I've only had 2 main relationships, got cheated on in both and both were abusive and violent, so been on my own longer than all years in relationships.

 

Your point about the reward and approval not lasting longer than the sexual act is sppot on. Messages to my brian are "he likes me, he wants me, he won't reject me because he keeps coming back, no matter how hard I push him away". I mean it each time I do push him away, but then he's nice, kind (manipulative) and I fall back into the pattern. Then later, alone at home, I see him go home, see his W and get upset, insecure and text him to stay away. He ignores, I fall back again. The strongest thought I have alot of the time is "He wants me. He could have others, but it's me he chooses" - but maybe the reality is no one else would want him.

 

Thank you for your help - a little amateur psychology can work wonders

[skylarblue]

I only skimmed through the responses so excuse me if I'm off point. The first thing that came to mind is the similarity between you and MM (and I in no way mean this in an insulting manner). You both seem to share the story of perhaps being conditioned/use to accepting certain unfulfilling situations/behaviors and for the reason of idk, choose to stay/continue/go back to your circumstance even though you're intelligent enough to have identified the problem and fortunate enough to be able to change it.

 

It's not enough to just want to, you have to. Hope, thought, talk, and listening can't/wont change a situation without action. You have to make honest, whole-hearted, hard, maybe sacrificial steps towards a positive/healthy/fulfilling change. Everything is hard when it involves making a choice of doing something you HAVE to do, instead of something you WANT to do, but nothing changes if nothing changes, and you caving to him only prolongs the negative and further cheats you out of your destiny to live, feel, and be something great. Even if it's just the smallest crawl, it's still the first motion that starts any journey.

 

Again, the most unfortunate part of the situation IMO is the opportunity is readily available to you, but you refuse to take it. It genuinely and empathetically saddens me. I know it may just sound like rhetoric (it's only simplified due to space, time, and medium), but I really can relate both directly and indirectly to certain feelings and challenges you may have.

[skylarblue]

I just want to add that even if you never deal with MM again, there will be another. I don't mean MM in the literally sense, but in saying there will be other toxic or unfulfilling R to come. You have to treat the disease not the symptoms. You have to fix you. If you don't, you're only going to find yourself in the same situation but with a different guy if the opportunity presents itself. If your ego, esteem, and/or worth (and I've been there) is dependent on someone else's validations, you're always going to need to seek it (that's giving up a lot control of yourself/life). It's never going to change because it's the only way that you could be happy with and in yourself.

[Elfie]

Skylarblue - both your above replies are spot on and truly insightful.

 

And yes, no worries, I do see what you mean when you compare MM and I